Both Christian and non-Christian men need to stop apologizing for their masculine nature and specifically their masculine sexuality. Men need to stop bowing down to Church leaders and feminists who have joined in an un-holy alliance against masculinity as God designed it.
Before I get into what the Scriptures say and don’t say about this subject of “locker-room talk” by men let’s first look at a couple of incidents that made national headlines in the last few months.
Donald Trump’s “locker-room talk”
The phrase “locker-room talk” made national headlines when a tape of Donald Trump was leaked where he engaged in sexual talk about women. Donald Trump spoke of married women who he had sex with and grabbing women by their genitals. Later he made it clear he was just joking about these things.
Should Christians defend Donald Trump’s locker room talk? No way!
By Biblical standards it would be absolutely wrong for a Christian to engage in adulterous behavior with married women or randomly grab women by their genitals.
“So he that goeth in to his neighbour’s wife; whosoever toucheth her shall not be innocent.”
Proverbs 6:29 (KJV)
Christian men should neither joke nor brag about such things or engage in such behaviors.
Should we as Christians take a stand against and discourage our sons from ever speaking even jokingly of sexually assaulting women? Of course, we should.
Should we as Christians take a stand against and discourage our sons from ever joking about trying to convince a woman to have sex with them outside of marriage (whether she is married or not)? Of course, we should.
Clearly Donald’s Trump’s “locker-room talk” included joking about adultery and sexual assault.
But as many men could tell you there are plenty of types “locker-room talk” between men that do not include joking about committing fornication, adultery or sexual assault.
Another type of “locker-room talk”
Contrary to the assertions of raving feminists and others who see most men as potential rapists there are a lot of men that engage in types of locker-room talk that never includes talk about getting women to commit adultery against their husbands or groping women.
Below I have put together a sample of how some men might actually talk when they are away from women.
Just an additional warning for those reading this – I am going to be very real here in showing how men actually talk when they are away from parents, women and the general public.
These are examples of “locker-room talk” that do not include statements about fornication, adultery or sexual assault:
Teenage Boy #1 “What do you think about Mary and Jane?”
Teenage Boy #2 “Well I would rate Mary as 8 with 10 being best. Jane is a probably a 6.”
Teenage Boy #1 “Why do you rate Mary higher than Jane?”
Teenage Boy #2 “I like bigger boobs. Mary’s boobs are just bigger.”
Teenage Boy #1 “I think Mary’s butt is too big though. I just can’t get past that. Jane has a smaller, yet still full butt.”
Teenage Boy #2 “So how would rate them Mary and Jane?”
Teenage Boy #1 “I would give Mary a 5. She is just too big for me. I would give Jane a 7. She has a really nice butt but her breasts are still a little too small to give her a higher rating.”
Teenage Boy #2 “What about Sarah? She has some sexy legs, doesn’t she? If I were rating her on legs alone I will give her a 10! But unfortunately, she has flat chest and a flat butt so I have to give her a 4”.
Teenage Boy #1 “I agree with your rating of a 4 for Sarah – fantastic legs but not much else going for her.”
Teenage Boy #2 “Now Andrea – you have to admit she has the perfect body. She has boobs – not too big and not too small. She has a perfectly sculpted butt and legs to die for. The problem is the face. Her nose is huge and her eyes just don’t look right. She is the very definition of a “butterface”. I guess I would have to rate her as a 7 although I could never see marrying her because for me a woman has to have a pretty face”.
Teenage Boy #1 “I would give Andrea a 10! I could overlook the face for that perfect of a body! And you did not even talk about her hair. Come on from the back she has the most beautiful long hair you would ever see. Speaking of Andrea. Yesterday she had the perfect blouse on. She came over near me in class to talk to one of her girlfriends and as she bent down on the desk to talk to her I got a glimpse of her cleavage. Holy cow did that make my day!”
Conversations like the one I have just described have occurred in various forms using different language among men both young and old, single and married all over the world since the beginning of creation.
So really, we have two types of locker-room talk that men engage in. One is limited to rating women’s sexual attractiveness by rating their various physical features. The other goes beyond simply rating women’s sexual attractiveness and goes into joking about getting women to engage in sex outside of marriage or sexual assault.
The Harvard Soccer Team Scouting Report Scandal
“In what appears to have been a yearly team tradition, a member of Harvard’s 2012 men’s soccer team produced a document that, in sexually explicit terms, individually assessed and evaluated freshmen recruits from the 2012 women’s soccer team based on their perceived physical attractiveness and sexual appeal.
The author and his teammates referred to the nine-page document as a “scouting report,” and the author circulated the document over the group’s email list on July 31, 2012.
In lewd terms, the author of the report individually evaluated each female recruit, assigning them numerical scores and writing paragraph-long assessments of the women. The document also included photographs of each woman, most of which, the author wrote, were culled from Facebook or the Internet.
The author of the “report” often included sexually explicit descriptions of the women. He wrote of one woman that “she looks like the kind of girl who both likes to dominate, and likes to be dominated…
The document and the entire email list the team used that season were, until recently, publicly available and searchable through Google Groups, an email list-serv service offered through Google.”
Harvard’s response was quick and strong:
“The men’s soccer team had performed impressively this season. Harvard was ranked first in the Ivy League, and fifteenth nationwide, within striking distance of both the league tournament and the national N.C.A.A. tournament. There was a strong sense on campus that they had winning left to do. However, after learning that the scouting report was not a unique artifact but part of a tradition that has continued for years, and that members of the team had been less than transparent in their initial interviews, the university decided to cancel the rest of the men’s soccer season.”
This was part of the reaction of the women’s soccer team at Harvard:
“In all, we do not pity ourselves, nor do we ache most because of the personal nature of this attack. More than anything, we are frustrated that this is a reality that all women have faced in the past and will continue to face throughout their lives. We feel hopeless because men who are supposed to be our brothers degrade us like this. We are appalled that female athletes who are told to feel empowered and proud of their abilities are so regularly reduced to a physical appearance. We are distraught that mothers having daughters almost a half century after getting equal rights have to worry about men’s entitlement to bodies that aren’t theirs…”
Here are some more other reactions to the scandal:
“Yet the soccer-team revelations are a sobering reminder that sexist behavior can’t easily be stamped out through rules, regulations, and imposed consequences alone. The problem with “locker-room talk,” whether it takes the form of Trump boasting about groping women or college students ranking the appeal of their peers, is that sexist speech normalizes sexist behavior. In the case of Harvard’s soccer team, what’s extraordinary is that the talk can’t be dismissed as casual or made in passing: it was co-authored, edited, and preserved as an official group record. While we might be resigned to encountering objectifying speech or behavior at a bar or a beer-soaked spring-break party, it’s sobering to see it codified in the form of a shared Google document. In effect, the scouting report became a set of instructions used, year after year, to dehumanize women.”
“The nine-page report full of numeric ratings, photos, and evaluations is shocking in its mix of explicitness, thoroughness, and matter-of-factness. But it’s not surprising. The objectification of women combined with a male sense of entitlement is the kind of thinking that, taken a step further, leads to so many sexual assaults on so many college campuses…”
So, in summary the men’s soccer team at Harvard kept a list of how the men’s team ranked various members of the women’s soccer team. This was a tradition dating back several years. The women’s bodies were ranked in detail according to their various physical attributes, assigned code names and what would be their best potential sexual positions.
Harvard’s response was quick and merciless. They suspended the entire team and canceled the remainder of their season.
Was the Harvard Scouting Report Scandal an attack on women or an attack on men?
Let me first say that I agree that at the very least the Harvard men’s soccer team acted stupidly by placing such a document on a such a public venue as Google groups. But even though they acted stupidly in this regard – no evidence has been presented that shows these team members ever meant for the collection of their sexual thoughts about these women to become public.
But let’s say they had not put the document on Google groups where it could easily be found. What if they had kept the document a closely guarded secret of the team? Would that have made any difference? I believe the answer is YES.
I am by no means saying that every word in this document made by the team was right by Biblical standards.
But the concept of young men ranking women by their sexual attractiveness is NOT an immoral practice or a violation of Biblical principles.
It is also not a crime or an immoral act for young men to privately discuss amongst themselves various physical attributes they like about women whether they know them personally or do not know them personally.
Here is the real truth about this situation that happened at Harvard. Make no mistake the outrage here was not about a soccer team sexually ranking their female counterparts on the women’s soccer team. This incident was simply used as a vehicle with which to allow women to vent their hatred for male sexuality.
Examining key words from the detractors of Harvard Men’s Soccer Team
Both women and men know this is the reality of how male nature operates. While some men may not vocalize their thoughts and many even condemn themselves for having such thoughts both sides acknowledge this as a reality.
It is not uncommon for detractors of the male nature to be frustrated by the fact that they cannot change man’s design.
This word was used in the context of men feeling they were entitled to these women’s bodies. Now as I have shown countless times on the blog from a Biblical perspective a husband is in fact “entitled” to his wife’s body. But that is not what we are discussing here. We are referring to young men who are not married to these women feeling entitled to these women’s bodies.
The problem with this “entitlement” attack against these young men is that there is no language that has been revealed so far that indicates such a thing. Rather this word would apply more to the detractors of men for ranking women by their sexual attractiveness. You see there are many in our culture today that feel they have a right to control the thoughts and feelings of others. The truth is they do not. And only when men willingly give up power over their own thoughts as so many have for the past century can others take power over the thoughts of men.
Webster’s online dictionary defines “sexism” as:
“1 : prejudice or discrimination based on sex; especially : discrimination against women
2 : behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex”
The fact is that it is no more “sexist” for men to privately discuss amongst themselves the physical attributes of women around them and rank their sexual appeal than it is for women to privately talk amongst themselves about their feelings on any given subject. In other words, telling men not to talk sexually is the equivalent of telling women not to talk emotionally with one another. Yet our culture fully condemns the former while uplifting the latter.
When people refer to men “dehumanizing women” or “objectifying women” they are saying the same thing. They are implying that when a man finds a woman sexually attractive and speaks of her body and its various parts that he has reduced her to an inanimate object to be used and discarded as we would any other inanimate object.
But what these attackers of masculinity miss is that it does not dehumanize a person to view them for their “function” rather than their “person”. We do this all the time in many areas of life without realizing it.
When both men and women get together to assemble their fantasy football teams they are not looking at these football players for their personhood, but rather for their sports function. What are each player’s strengths and weaknesses as it pertains to football? That is all that matters in this scenario.
When a military commander puts together a special operations team he is not looking at the personhood of these men but rather their military function. Each man has unique abilities and functions that when put together serves their intended overall function.
There are countless other examples where we look at people all the time for the potential functional ability in any given scenario yet we do not look down at these other types of objectification.
So, it is ok to make a fantasy list of real football players and rank them based on their potential football ability yet it is seen as morally repugnant for men to make a list of women at their school and rank their bodies based on their sexual appeal and fantasize about their sexual ability? Do we not see the inconsistency here?
The fact is it does NOT dehumanize a person to see them for their function – whether it be their potential athletic ability, singing ability, fighting ability (as in military members) or women for their sexual appeal and potential ability to bring sexual pleasure to a man.
Yes men naturally see women as objects to be enjoyed for their sexual pleasure. However it is precisely because the vast majority of men ALSO see women as persons that they do not just grab women and try to have sex with them. Rapists only see women as objects of sexual pleasure and not also as persons and this is the huge difference.
The last word I want to discuss from the detractors of male sexuality is the word “assault”. The implication is that if men feel free to sexually rank women that this would lead men to sexually assault women.
Nothing could be further from the truth. The same logic is used by those who attack men for looking at and enjoying pornography. One of the attacks against porn use by men has been something like this “men who sexually assaulted women all report looking at some type of porn first”. We are then lead to believe that one lead to the other.
But this is akin to saying “all rapists and molesters ate food. Therefore, eating food causing people to become rapists”. The point is this line of logic is utterly ridiculous.
If a man sexually assaults or rapes a woman it was because it was always in his heart to do this . It was only a matter of the right opportunity arising and him getting up the nerve to act on his evil desires. Watching porn did not cause him to do it and neither did sexually ranking women cause him to do it. It was there all the time.
The reality is that the vast majority of men who watch porn or sexually rank women never assault a woman and don’t even entertain fantasies of assaulting women. They entertain fantasies of consensual sex – not rape.
What if the Harvard women’s soccer team had done something like this?
Imagine if the women’s soccer team had assigned each one of its members to research the personalities and various characteristics of each of the male soccer players and they made a similar list from a female perspective?
I am sure it would be have been far less sexual and more personality oriented. This because of the difference of how women operate from men. Women for the most part are relational and men are physical. I don’t doubt that on some level even if it was never documented that some of the women’s soccer team members did talk about various men on the men’s soccer team as to which ones they found attractive and why.
But I doubt even if the women had ranked the men’s team even in a more feminine(so more personality and less sexual way) nothing would have happened. If the list was made public everyone would have had a good laugh and nothing would have happened.
The Christian response to “locker-room talk”
Karen Prior writing for Christianity today wrote the following comment in her article entitled “Call Out Locker Room Talk for the Sin That It Is”:
“Now the current debate over “locker room talk,” I’m happy to report, highlights our decreasing acceptance of the old, broken morality that “boys will be boys.” …
Not long ago, my husband, a public high school teacher and coach, was in a car with two of his students. One spotted a female jogger up ahead and made a couple of lascivious comments. To the boy’s surprise, my husband responded by pulling up alongside the jogger, lowering the passenger side window where the student was sitting, and saying to him, “I’d like you to meet my wife.”
It’s a funny story. But it’s funny only because of how it ended. That “locker room talk” turned into a teachable moment for a man-in-the-making: make that two men-in the making, because after driving away, the second boy, seated wide-eyed in the back seat the entire time, asked my husband if he was going to “beat up” the other boy for what he said. Instead, my husband sternly but lovingly lectured both students, first about respecting women and then about resolving conflicts peacefully. What my husband did in that moment is what all good men must rise up and do when locker room talk enters the conversation.”
The opinion of this Christian writer would probably be very common amongst most Christians. “Locker-room talk” in all its forms whether it be comments like Donald Trump’s or even seemingly less comments about a woman’s behind are equally sinful their opinion.
She mentions that the young man made some “lascivious comments” about the jogger (which he did not realize was the coach’s wife). I am going to take a guess at what the young man may have said.
“Look at the body on that woman. Her butt is amazing”.
Now is this a “lascivious comment” by Biblical standards?
“Lasciviousness” is the old English word for what we now call “sensuality”. It was a translation of the Greek word “Aselgeia” which literally means “out of control” or “over indulgence”. What it was referring to was someone who had an addiction or overindulged in some type of physical pleasure and it was not restricted to sexually related pleasure. A drunkard would be guilty of engaging in “Aselgeia”. While thinking about sex or even enjoying the view of beautiful women whether in person or in print or on a screen is not sinful it can become sinful if it becomes obsessive and the central focus of our life. When our pursuit of any earthly pleasure causes us to neglect our relationship with God, our spouse, our children or our other responsibilities then something that was not sinful at first can become sinful.
But make no mistake – a man enjoying the physical pleasure of a plate of food at his favorite restaurant as well as that boy enjoying the sight of that beautiful jogger is not lascivious, lustful or sinful.
There is a common belief amongst Christians that if a man is sexually aroused by, has thoughts about or speaks words reflecting his arousal and thoughts about a woman he is not married to that this is sinful behavior. Some may not call it lascivious as this writer did. They may instead call it lustful. But the problem with such thinking is there is absolutely no Scriptural backing for such a position. It is based on culture, opinion and peer pressure alone.
The fact is that God designed male sexuality and no he did not originally design some magical switch in men that they would only be aroused by a woman once they were married. Some people actually believe this ridiculous theory because they cannot accept the male visual and physical arousal mechanisms as God given. It is a sin, in their view, for a person to experience or exercise any part of their sexuality before being married. This is why they preach so hard against masturbation and sexual fantasy.
Now lest someone get the wrong idea. I teach on this blog what the Bible teaches. The only sexual relations God honors are between a man and woman in the holy covenant of marriage as the book of Hebrews states:
“Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.”
Hebrews 13:4 (KJV)
But young people experiencing and exercising their sexuality, rather than sexual relations, before marriage is NOT forbidden. There is no sin in a young man or young woman experiencing sexual pleasure from a sexual dream or sexual thought about a person of the opposite sex. It is what we do with those thoughts that become sinful. It is when we allow our sexual arousal to turn in sexual covetousness which is what lust is. It is when we start thinking about how we can convince someone to have sex outside of marriage.
But aren’t men engaging in impure speech when they talk about sexually related things?
The most common phrase that is assigned by Christian leaders to men talking together about women in a sexual manner is the word “impure”. These thoughts about women’s body parts or about sexual fantasies about women are said to be “impure”.
There are many articles on Christian websites that exhort men to not engage in any sexual thoughts(fantasies) or sexually explicit speech with other men so that they may remain pure. Here are some common verses that are used to support this position.
“Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things. “
Philippians 4:8 (KJV)
“3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints; 4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks. 5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.”
Ephesians 5:3-5 (KJV)
So here is what happens in the typical church men’s youth group or young college men’s class.
They are told that sexual talk between men that compare’s women’s bodies or talks about women’s body parts or any talk of sexual fantasies is by definition “impure”, “filthy” or “dirty” talk. Then the speaker will ask men “Can you honestly say when you are talking about those women’s bodies that are speaking in a pure way? Is that a lovely way to speak about women? Or is it dirty and disrespectful? We all know the answer that is impure speech based on impure thoughts”.
If you have been raised in most Christian churches you will recognize this speech or a variation of it.
If you as a Christian man ever hear this speech about Christian men engaging in impure speech in connection with men talking sexually about women here are some questions you should ask the teacher or speaker when they open the room for questions or discussion.
“How do you know that talking about women’s body parts is impure speech? Where does the Bible call such speech by men impure?”
If the teacher responds with Matthew 5:28 that “Well Jesus said that if a man looks with lust on woman then he is committing adultery in his heart”. Then you can respond with these questions for your teacher about lust.
“But what is lust? Doesn’t the Bible tell us in Romans 7:7 that lust is covetousness? And isn’t covetousness the desire to unlawfully possess something that does not belong to us? Where does the Bible teach that sexual arousal, sexual fantasy or talking about women’s bodies or body parts is lust?”
At this point your teacher’s head will be spinning because unfortunately most Christian teachers simply parrot what they have been taught in their church, college or seminary. I understand that many of these preachers and teachers are good men with good intentions. They only want to please God with their lives. But because of how they been indoctrinated both by their church as well as our culture they cannot see sexual talk between men as anything less than dirty or impure.
They might for good measure throw one more verse at you to try and support their faulty belief that men sexually ranking women’s bodies is dirty and impure.
“I made a covenant with mine eyes; why then should I think upon a maid?”
There is actually a website called CovenantEyes.com that bases it’s mission on this verse. They and other Christians claim that Job was saying in this verse that he made a covenant with eyes never to think sexually about a woman he was not married to.
The problem is the Scripture don’t say that. We agree that men can have wrong thoughts about women. But we disagree on what those wrong thoughts are. So here is how you answer you teacher if he brings up Job’s covenant with his eyes not to think upon a maid:
“Sir should we not be careful of adding to God’s Word? We know that Job was saying he would not think about something about a woman. What does the Bible tell us we should not think about regarding women? It tells us not to think about seducing virgin women to have sex with us outside of marriage right? It tells us not to engage in prostitution right? So we should not think about seeing prostitutes right? It tells us not to think about seducing our neighbor’s wife right? So how can we add something to wrong thoughts that God never adds? Are you not adding a condemnation of men talking about women’s bodies to God’s Word?”
I have actually had this conversation with several pastors both in email and some of my friends on the phone. They never have clear answers to these questions because they have never questioned the Christian culture they have been raised in.
But isn’t it wrong to compare women’s beauty or say one woman is not as attractive as another?
There are some people – both Christian and non-Christian who believe it is morally wrong to ever directly compare two women and say one is more attractive than the other. But the Bible shows us this is not the case:
“Leah was tender eyed; but Rachel was beautiful and well favoured.”
Genesis 29:17 (KJV)
We don’t know exactly what “tender eyed” meant but we know whatever it meant – it is was the opposite of “beautiful and well favoured” which is what Rachel was.
God literally told us in his word that Rachel was hot and Leah was not.
But in this area of rating beauty we as men need to practice discretion. God was not saying we should walk up to two women and say to one “You know she is so much better looking than you!”. That is not the right time and place for a man to express such a thought.
Now if you were with your guy friends alone and you wanted to express the fact that you thought one sister was hot and the other was not there would be no sin in that. Again, so many things in the Christian life come down to time and place.
“To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven”
Ecclesiastes 3:1 (KJV)
What was the lesson those boys could have learned?
If that coach had understood what the true meaning of lust and lascivious are in the Bible he could have had a very different conversation with those boys. Instead of scolding that boy for his God given male sexuality he could have helped him to understand it and channel it.
The right way to handle that scenario could have gone as follows.
After the comments the boy made about how sexy the jogger was the coach still could have pulled over and introduced the woman as his wife. Of course, the boy would blush and feel embarrassed as he did in the actual story.
Then when the other boy asked him if he was going to “beat him up” for what he said he could have said “Why would I beat him up for having the same thoughts about my wife that I did when I first met her?” He could have been honest about his male sexuality instead of hiding and condemning himself and every other man for having the same nature. Contrary to popular belief today – the masculine sexual nature is not equivalent to the sin nature. Has man’s masculine nature been corrupted by sin just as woman’s feminine nature has been corrupted by sin? Yes. But in its original design the masculine nature is a beautiful nature.
The coach could have then helped the boy who made the comments about his wife’s body with these words:
“It is normal for you to have these thoughts about women. God gave you these desires. God is the one who designed your brain to give you pleasure signals when you see a beautiful woman like my wife. But you need to channel that God given gift and don’t misuse it. It is one thing for you to privately say to me and other guys what you find attractive in various women’s bodies. But it would have been very different if you had yelled out the window to that jogger – “He babe you got a nice ass!” as you go barreling by in your car. That would be disrespectful behavior toward women.
Also, I want to address the whole “do I want to beat him up” question you asked. It is one thing If you know that a woman is married or in a relationship with the man you are with then you need to be careful of your words with him about her. He may be sensitive about men complimenting his wife’s beauty. Now if he seems to invite you to tell him what you find attractive about his wife then it may be ok but still be careful.
But there is a lesson for you if you are the man whose woman that is. How can you be angry at another man for having the EXACT same thoughts you know you had about your girlfriend or wife? It is extremely hypocritical and illogical for you to do so. Now if that man is flirting with your girlfriend or wife or acting like he wants to seduce them that is a whole other story. You have a right to be angry then. But even then, we don’t settle these kinds of differences with violence. We use our words – not our fists.
I also want you to realize that while it is ok for you to exercise your God given male sexuality by enjoying the sight of and thoughts about beautiful women and even masturbation – it is not ok to have sex outside of marriage. You need to guard your thoughts from being just sexually pleasurable to being sexually lustful. You need to keep yourself from being in sexually tempting positions with girls that you date where you will be tempted to have sex outside of marriage.”
Now what I have just described would have been a healthy and Biblically based conversation about male sexuality. Instead those two boys walked away feeling condemned for being aroused by that beautiful jogger.
Male sexuality has been assaulted in many ways since shortly after the birth of Christian asceticism during the life of the Apostles. While Christianity today has shook off many parts of Christian asceticism remnants of it remain in our Christian culture. Not only that but our secular cultural which has been poisoned by feminism attacks male sexuality as well. So, in way men are getting double teamed by Church leaders as well as secular feminist leaders.
I can’t tell you how encouraging it has been to me to receive emails from Pastors, teachers and Christian men and women from all over the world whose are eyes are finally being opened to false attacks on male sexuality.
Young men are actually joining in small groups to discuss my writings on this subject of male sexuality from a Biblical perspective.
As I said earlier in this article – I do not agree with Donald Trump’s “locker-room talk” comments. He was joking about trying to get women to commit adultery and sexual assault and neither of these topics should be joked about by men.
But this does not make all “locker-room talk” by men sinful. Men certainly need to practice discretion with how they engage in this talk. The men’s soccer team at Harvard did not practice discretion when the put their “Scouting Report” on a publicly available server where someone might find it.
But if men practice the Biblical principle of “time and place”(Ecclesiastes 3:1) and speak about women’s bodies amongest themselves in way that does not joke about sinful behavior(as Donald Trump did) then there is no sin in this. No man should ever be ashamed of such speech when it is done in the right place and right time.
And for my Christian friends who will say “whatever you say in private you should be able to say in public” there is no Biblical principle or command that backs up such a statement. In fact it is wise and godly to hold our tongue on a host of issues and speak to people privately about certain things. And from a marriage front I would bet each and every one of these people would not want their private sexually related speech with their spouses made public. So this argument that just because you need to reserve certain speech for controlled settings that it is wrong has no Scriptural basis whatsoever.
I do believe though that these events with Donald Trump and the “Scouting Report” incident at Harvard provide us with a great opportunity to call out the misuse of the male sexual nature but at the same time make a strong defense of the male sexual nature as God intended it to be.
55 thoughts on “Why Christian men should NOT be ashamed of “locker-room talk””
shredifier – how do you reconcile what Jesus specifically says about marriage and divorce – namely that divorcing a wife causes her to commit adultery (because God doesn’t accept the divorce).
That’s too much of a big topic to get into here, suffice it to say, that properly interpreted, we believe Jesus is addressing situations where husbands were putting their wives away WITHOUT giving them a certificate of divorce, you had to do both for it to be a proper divorce….the Pharisees were merely sending their wives away WITHOUT giving them a certificate, so to marry THOSE women would result in adultery because they technically were still married to their first husbands
But once you divorce properly, there is NO SIN charged to your account for remarriage, as Paul proved in 1st Corinthians 7:28
I may have misinterpreted your meaning. So what you are saying is that it is alright for a man to comment on women’s body and sexual attractiveness as long as there is no mention of adultery? Surely you are familiar with Mathew 5:28. A woman’s body should be viewed and lusted after only by her future husband. Is teaching men that it is okay to focus his attention on a woman’s butt or boobs, admiring her body and dwelling on it not a precarious line that can easily fall into lust? Not to mention that even that a woman’s worth should not lie in her physical appearance, but in her Godliness. Isn’t getting boys into the habit of rating girls based on their butt, boobs and appearance not also teaching them to value a woman’s body over her character and Godliness?
Yes I am extremely familiar with Matthew 5:28. In fact it is probably one of the most referenced verses on this blog. Read the articles below to my Biblical exegesis of that passage.
Lust is simply an English word that was used to translate two common Greek words(Epithumia and Epithumeo). Depending on their context they are translated into English as “desire”, “lust” and “covet”.
In short – Lust is covetousness(See Romans 7:7). Covetous is NOT equivalent to a man talking about what features he likes on various woman’s bodies. It is NOT even a man becoming sexually aroused by a woman’s body or fantasizing about what it would be like to have sex with her. Covetousness in the sexual sense is when a man desires to seduce a woman(whether she is a virgin or married) into having sex with him outside of marriage.
Words are important. Lust is an English word the was used to translate a sinful desire. This why it is improper to say a future husband or husband “lusts” after his wife(or future wife). His feelings would be rightly classified as “desire” because what he wants – sex in marriage with this woman is a pure and undefiled desire.
Now if you meant by “lusted” that a man should not even find a woman sexually desirable or wonder what she looks like naked or what it would be like to have sex with her unless he is engaged to her or married to her you have no Biblical ground for such a statement. There is no such prohibition in all the Scriptures.
Is it ok to teach men and women that it is ok to be aroused to hunger for food by the site of food on another person’s plate? Or is allow people to enjoy their arousal by food “not a precarious line that can easily fall into ” them desiring to steal food that does not belong to them?
moonlighttiger – man’s sexual nature was designed in him by God. He should not suppress it any more than a person should suppress their enjoyment of the sights, smells and tastes of their favorite food. But rather he must channel it healthy ways that do not violate God’s laws.
You present a false dichotomy – you think either a man can value a woman’s body and it’s various features or her Godliness and not both. The fact is while a woman’s total worth is not found in her beauty – a part of it is. The Bible even shows that women were valued because of their beauty and it never condemns this.
Genesis 29:17 (KJV)
Job 42:15 (KJV)
Esther 2:7 (KJV)
Genesis 24:15-16 (KJV)
You see moonlighttiger, a significant part of a woman’s value as a potential spouse, and even as a current spouse is found in her beauty. This is not shallowness on the part of men. But rather by the very design of God. You see God made man in his image(masculine human nature most closely reflects God’s nature) and God himself desires beauty. He desires the beauty of his church as is seen in this prophecy of Christ and is Church:
Psalm 45:11 (KJV)
So while Proverbs 31:30 is absolutely true when God says “Favour is deceitful, and beauty is vain: but a woman that feareth the Lord, she shall be praised.” it is absolutely true to say while the entirety of a woman’s value should not be based on her beauty – or portion of it is and this is by the design of God.
It is only when man seeks a wife and does not look deeper than her beauty when seeking to marry her, to seek that her character is a beautiful as her body that he is overemphasizing beauty.
I hope this helps.
I once walked by a woman and immediately thought about how her breasts would feel in my hands. I realized that I had been doing that about women for at least 46 years, since my semenarche.
God’s response was: “See, you’re a breast-man.” No condemnation. Only explaining how He wired me.
As a pastor, I was able to use that event in a sermon about sexual legalism.