Is wanting sex with your wife when she is not in the mood childish?

“Yes, God has given us the sex drive, but that doesn’t mean we must gratify it. We are not children any more…I can accept the sex drive to be almost impossible to resist when one is a teenager and the hormones are wild, but I cannot accept an adult man trying to excuse his adultery – or coerce his wife to have sex with him – by “I have a sex drive and my wife doesn’t!”.

This is an excerpt from a comment I received today from a Christian wife who calls herself ‘ketutar’. She was commenting on my post “Is a husband selfish for having sex with his wife when she is not in the mood?”.

This comment  is just another textbook example of the problem with the poisonous feminization of marriage that we see today throughout America and the Western world.

Here is her full comment.

Ketutar’s philosophy of sex in Marriage

“I’m OK with this, except for two things.

1) Your marriage doesn’t need sex. If it does, you’re doing it wrong. Due to my health, we have not had sex for several years now. Our marriage is not suffering in any way. We are very intimate, kissing, hugging, holding each other, petting each other – we give each other compliments and express our love in all kinds of manners, like doing small favors to each other, giving each other tokens of love, thinking about the other, sending each other messages and kisses and hugs. Marriage needs intimacy, not sex.

2) Yes, God has given us the sex drive, but that doesn’t mean we must gratify it. We are not children any more. We don’t use diapers, we wait until we can use the toilet. We don’t need snacks, we wait until the meal is served and eat by the table with the family at decided times. We don’t need a bedtime story, teddy and a glass of water before we can sleep. We get up in the morning even when it would be so nice to stay in bed. We don’t have a 2 mile present wish list, nor do we go and buy whatever we might want just because we could – no, we are adults, so we see if the thing fits our economy, home, family and plan. If it doesn’t, we forget the whim, not the family and plan. I can accept the sex drive to be almost impossible to resist when one is a teenager and the hormones are wild, but I cannot accept an adult man trying to excuse his adultery – or coerce his wife to have sex with him – by “I have a sex drive and my wife doesn’t!”.

Also, God gave your wife her sex drive, too… if she got less than you do, should she go against God’s will to adjust to yours? Or should you perhaps exercise not giving in to your animal instincts, bodily whims and yetzer hara?”

My response to Ketutar and other Christian wives who may think like this

You said – “Your marriage doesn’t need sex. If it does, you’re doing it wrong.”

No I am sorry Ketutar, but if your marriage does not need sex – you are in fact doing something wrong. The Bible shows sex as a need in marriage.

“If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish. And if he do not these three unto her, then shall she go out free without money.”  – Exodus 21:10-11 (KJV)

God compares sex with food and clothing which are both needs as well. In a marriage – sex is a need.  While it is true that no person has ever died from not having sex, it is equally true that plenty of marriages have died from lack of sex.

Your husband is commanded by God to seek sexual pleasure in your body, and for you to give it to him.

“Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth. Let her be as the loving hind and pleasant roe; let her breasts satisfy thee at all times; and be thou ravished always with her love.” – Proverbs 5:18-19 (KJV)

A man wanting sex when his wife is not in the mood is NOT childish.

In fact I would argue that women are often the ones who are acting childish for the reasons they often turn down their husbands for sex.

A big part of what it means to be an adult and growing up is doing things when you don’t feel like it. It is getting up for work when you don’t feel like it.  It is talking to your spouse when you don’t feel like it.  And yes it is having sex with your spouse when you don’t feel like it.

That is what it means to be a Christian spouse and an adult in God’s eyes.

Sex is what separates marriage from friendship

It is one thing for a married couple to not be able to have sex for brief periods of time due to health issues, surgeries or being physically separated(like because of job situations). But if a couple simply chooses not to have sex anymore that is no longer marriage as God intended it.

Even if it is due to health reasons.  I am going to be frank here.  Unless it becomes a physical impossibly for a man to achieve an erection or for a woman to have vaginal penetration a couple ought to be having sex.  This goes to the core of marriage.  Even with ED issues or women having issues with vaginal penetration there are other ways for a couple to have physical sexual intimacy.

Ketutar – you and your husband have allowed the “one flesh” aspect of marriage to be neglected or basically removed.  You no longer have a fully functioning marriage as God designed it to be – instead you have at best a close friendship.

In fact I would take a guess and say that you have successfully converted your husband into your girlfriend.

The only way your husband is not suffering is because of one of these possibilities:

  1. He was and has always has been an asexual man. So when your health problems came along he was like “Yeah – I don’t have to have sex anymore”.
  2. He has homosexual tendencies. So when you were first married he had sex with you but he really did not like it – he just did it to please you. Then when your health problems came that burden was lifted off his shoulders. Now he just has to suppress his desires toward other men.
  3. He is simply doing a very good job of hiding his displeasure and frustration about not having sex with you. If this is the case he is probably relieving his sexual tension by looking at porn and masturbating. But this in no way can completely replace that physical sexual connection that he needs with you. He may also be hiding affairs or seeing prostitutes.

Adults don’t need snacks?

You said “We don’t need snacks, we wait until the meal is served and eat by the table with the family at decided times.”

Well I don’t know about you – but as an adult I still need a granola bar or other snacks in between meals.  In fact many studies have shown that eating 4 or 5 small meals a day is better than eating three big meals a day the way many of us do.

And yes as adults we need “sexual snacks” as well as “sexual meals”.

Sexual snacks are quickies. That is when you don’t have a lot of time and maybe only one of you is in the mood but the other needs it so you go have a quickie.  Every healthy marriage should have quickies as part of its sexual diet.

Sexual meals are the full treatment.  This is when both people are in the mood (or get themselves in the mood if one is not) and they take their time with foreplay and just enjoying one another’s bodies until they get to the actual act of intercourse. This is the kind of sex where you hold each other afterwards and just cuddle.

A Christian marriage needs both sexual snacks and sexual meals. Without sexual snacks and meals the marriage will starve to death and at best become a close friendship and nothing more – as your marriage has apparently become. At worst it will lead to sexual immorality and the marriage may end.

Is a woman going against God’s will if she has sex with her husband when she is not in the mood?

You said “Also, God gave your wife her sex drive, too… if she got less than you do, should she go against God’s will to adjust to yours? Or should you perhaps exercise not giving in to your animal instincts, bodily whims and yetzer hara?”

Ketutar – do you honestly tell yourself that you are going against God’s will if you have sex with your husband when you are not in the mood?

It is ABSOLUTELY God’s will that you give your body to your husband whenever he needs it!

“Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband. The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife. Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.” – I Corinthians 7:3-5 (KJV)

I realize you may have some health problems.  But health problems are not an excuse to end sex in a marriage. They may be cause for brief delays and rainchecks, but they should never eradicate sex from the marriage.

Ketutar – you have defrauded your husband (I Corinthians 7:5) and he has sinned by not finding sexual satisfaction in your body (Proverbs 5:19).  It appears he has abandoned his leadership position at least in this sexual arena, if not others.  He has enabled your sin now for “years”.

I pray that you will both repent of this mockery you have made of marriage and that you will indeed become “one flesh” as God designed you to be.

82 responses to “Is wanting sex with your wife when she is not in the mood childish?”

  1. I really wish people would identify these “health issues” instead of hiding behind a generic label. I hear stories like this enough (and not just from this blog) that I have a hard time believing that every single instance is a result of truly impossible sex. This may be ironic coming from me since I did have vaginismus (which did make sex impossible) for a time, but it is curable, and therefore not a chronic excuse. Maybe I’ve been blessed with an extra dose of naivety, but I truly have not heard of a ton of health issues where impossible sex is a symptom, and so my BS radar is at an all-time high.

    My biggest pet peeve right now is those who claim pregnancy as a reason not to have sex. I’m in the middle of a terrible first trimester and I totally understand nausea and exhaustion, but they haven’t slowed me and my husband down yet.

    I think it might be time for all of us to show a little skepticism to stories like these. I should point out that I have a very loving husband who is always willing to accept a postponing of sex should the need arise, so I’m not seeing this from the perspective of a woman who feels trapped by sex (as I have written about previously). However, that need has also yet to arise which plays back into my skepticism.

  2. Even if she has a physical problem (I’ve had quite a few “female problems” through the years) there are a lot of alternatives to vaginal sex that still allow for sexual release and bonding. I’d think “cuddlying” with no means of sexual release would be frustrating in the extreme. I know my husband was a different person when we were too busy to have sex (which has happened from time to time, especially when we both worked full time).

    Women have very high maintenance equipment, the reason we get a whole aisle in the grocery store and the babies/toddlers get the other one. With that high maintenance equipment comes high maintenance costs and the (hopefully only occasional) drawbacks. That’s no reason not to have any sexual relations, and I find the comparison that likens the (natural and healthy) adult male desire for sex with the needs of a whiny toddler as both insulting and repellent in the extreme. That’s putting it as kindly as I can.

  3. When I saw “too busy to have sex” I meant too busy to have sex as frequently as he wanted it (daily, or very close). He feels neglected when that happens as sex is very important to him.

  4. I should add that I wasn’t meaning to imply that women don’t go through “female problems”, but rather that I haven’t heard of any that last for years on end. I’m referring to chronic sexual dysfunction rather than the acute flare-ups that lots of people (male and female) experience.

  5. AnnaMS,

    I agree the “health issues” seems to be a catch all excuse for many women. My wife has anxiety, depression issues, migraine headaches, cardiac issues, chronic neck and back pain issues(from a car accident) and other ailments and we still manage to have sex. Does she always feel like it – no. In fact sometimes she just plain does not feel like it but she does because she has learned it is her duty as a wife.

    The truth is sometimes I don’t feel like doing it either when I see the various conditions she faces, but you know what when its been a week you just have do it and make the best of it.

    This comment I received from this woman really seems to reek of issues she has with men and their sexuality painting men as selfish children for wanting sex with their wives rather than true health issues that literally make it impossible for them to have sex.

  6. Liz,

    Your Statement:

    “Women have very high maintenance equipment, the reason we get a whole aisle in the grocery store and the babies/toddlers get the other one.”

    That is hilarious! I was rolling out of my chair when I read it.

  7. 😛
    Glad I made you smile.

  8. Larry,

    Jeff and Hugo Stiglitz is the same person. Was putting in HS because I watch inglorious basterds.

    Very good stuff. I have been reading Rollo for years and Dalrock, as I am sure you have looked at them too. Dragonfly, Emily and IB have been very mean to Rollo on his blog. His statement of them getting the tingles from being on mens blogs seem very true. I did post a link on Dalrock due to the fact that you seem to affirm some of what they say. Many things they say are for the Sisterhood so to speak and lead down the path to the FI. Just get IB mad or stirred up and her true colors come out, same with Emily and Dragonfly.

    As for this article, I give you a lot of credit for even replying to the K…. what’s her name.

    My response would be grunting and umphing is all that is needed in marriage. A woman doesn’t need intimate conversation or physical affection to stay alive, so the husband doesn’t even need to touch her. She sets the stage for the soft dread and then divorce the SOB when he takes her spending cash, and car away from her etc.

    No Dragonfly I am not a troll. Go back and read my comment about my marriage. It closely mirrors BGRs. After finally having a strong frame and doing naturally (before I saw this blog) and took her spending money away we are having more sex. We are both born again christians.

    Like Liz, she gives me sex to see me pleased and happy now. Sometimes I view it as pitty sex or mercy, but talking it over with her several times I can tell she is being truthful.

    I try very hard to get her aroused, and when she does it’s fantastic, but I give up and just have a release when she seems like she will not get in the mood.

    I also agree and disagree with Rollo. My wife must be some what of an outlier. She is easily aroused to jealousy, but she is one to get depressed or shutdown instead of up her desire. And this goes for any situation. I am way higher on the SMV and MMV than she is and this makes her sad, not more desirable for me.

    Not to toot my horn, but I have been hit on by my wife’s friends (when they do they are no longer friends) and even a pastors wife once. This does not help our sex life. What does help is FRAME. I simply became a rock she could not budge with her emotions, shaming, her insults, and her worry.

  9. ^Oh we’ve been mean to Rollo? Awww. Poor baby.
    Pretty sure he doesn’t mind. After all, he is an ‘alpha male.’ Besides, after all the stuff he’s said about us, saying f*ck you and calling him a misogynist aren’t the worst things I could say.
    Also I don’t think Dragonfly ever said anything to

    Anyway Larry, my position on this issue has changed entirely. A woman on Insanity’s blog told me about a book, ‘Love and Responsibility’ by Karol Wojtyla (Pope John Paul.) Reading it has helped me understand what the Catechism means by ‘sex for unitive purposes.’ I’ve always viewed sex as a more spiritual and emotional act. I know you don’t entirely agree as we’ve argued about that before. But now I understand that, viewed from this angle, demanding sex from your wife is not ‘unitive’ at all, but entirely destructive.
    I wouldn’t go so far as to call this behavior childish or ‘rape.’ But it is destructive. All I’m sayin’

  10. Emily, I can see both sides here, and to some extent, I can relate to both. I don’t think sex should ever be demanded, but I also don’t think it should ever have to be demanded. Both husband and wife have a role here.

    There is nothing inherently non-unitive about having sex simply because one spouse rather than both is in need of release. I think circumstances are key here, though. If we’re dealing with a couple where one person has a clearly unhealthy view of sex brought about by a history of abuse, lies, etc. there is groundwork that needs to be laid first in order to help that person get back on track sexually. However, once a sexual relationship has been established to the point that sex is considered a positive thing by both spouses (which ideally should happen right away, but unfortunately does not always as was the case with me), the sexual relationship is inherently unifying. In a marriage where both spouses are sexually attracted to the other, there should be enough repeated instances of mutually-pleasing sex in order to keep sex as a positive experience. At that point, instances where one person is in the mood and the other is not, should not be enough to make the sexual relationship as a whole non-unitive or destructive. If both spouses are preferring each other above themselves, there will be times when the husband backs off out of consideration to his wife, and there will be times when the wife is agreeable to sex out of consideration to her husband. Sacrificial love on display like this can only help strengthen a relationship.

  11. Great article, Larry, completely agree again.

    I agree with Liz that it’s shaming and insulting to equate the male sexual need to childish behavior. As if the media would ever equate a woman’s need for intimacy in that manner… of course they wouldn’t.

    Jeff/HS/Whoever you are : What you’re doing, posting under two names, is called “sock-puppeting” online, and completely makes you look like a fraud because you’re trying to come across as two different people – when you’re really just one. It’s a huge red flag for bloggers because it shows a lack of integrity. And no, never “been mean” to Rollo lol. That’s funny though.

  12. “A sockpuppet is an online identity used for purposes of deception. The term, a reference to the manipulation of a simple hand puppet made from a sock, originally referred to a false identity assumed by a member of an Internet community who spoke to, or about, themselves while pretending to be another person.[1] The term now includes other misleading uses of online identities, such as those created to praise, defend or support a person or organization,[2] or to circumvent a suspension or ban from a website. A significant difference between the use of a pseudonym[3] and the creation of a sockpuppet is that the sockpuppet poses as an independent third-party unaffiliated with the puppeteer. Many online communities attempt to block sockpuppets….” Wikipedia

  13. @ Emily you are either cherry picking or completely missing teachings of JP II in his Theology of the Body. You would be hard pressed to find a Churchman of the 20th century who insisted more on the centrality of conjugal relations in marriage than JP II. That’s why the RCC would annul Ketatur’s marriage as lacking the unitive aspect. Unitive aspect means sex.

  14. Jeff,

    I will let your comments stick around for now – but please stick to this one name and no more. Inglorious bastards is also one me and my son’s favorite movies as well – I have it on DVD. 🙂

    If you keep it civil we won’t have a problem. Also one of the main philosophies I have here on this blog is that I hate feminism – but I do not hate women. Basically what that means is we hate the sin, not the sinner. So if we want to talk about the wrongs of feminism and emotionalism as foundations for marriage, or men taking a stand for what is right I am there.

    But if we start engaging in hatred toward women themselves instead of feminism that is where I draw the line.

  15. Hey Anna! 🙂
    “There is nothing inherently non-unitive about having sex simply because one spouse rather than both is in need of release”
    There absolutely is, Anna. Not only non-unitive, but destructive.
    Note, we are not talking about a situation where the wife is willingly having sex, and enjoying it emotionally but not physically. In this case, the wife is deriving pleasure from her husband’s pleasure, and that is unitive.
    But that isn’t the only situation we are discussing; if the wife is not enjoying sex emotionally, or is unwillingly having sex, or has not achieved physical pleasure for a long period of time, then the problems need to be addressed. If a husband has sex with his wife while she is in this state (or vice versa!) it is completely destructive. Indeed, simply serving as an object of your husband’s sexual release is dehumanizing and, in most cases, will only increase the fear and disgust of sex that many conservative Christian girls are raised with.

    But Pope John Paul says it better than I possibly can:
    “The man must reckon with the fact that the woman is in a sense in another world, unlike himself not only in the physiological but also in the psychological sense. Since he has to play the active role in the marital relationship, he must get to know that other world, and indeed as far as possible project himself into it emotionally. This indeed is the positive function of tenderness. Without it the man will only attempt to subject the woman to the demands of his own body, and his own psyche, frequently harming her in the process.”

  16. Emily,

    It is no more ‘destructive’ to demand sex from one’s wife than it was for God to demand that Israel obey his commands and be faithful to him. It is no more ‘destructive’ to demand sex from one’s wife than it was for Christ rebuke his churches in Revelation 2 & 3 and call them to repentance.

    I do not disagree that at its best – God intends sex to be a ‘unitive’ act. This is why the Bible often refers to act of sex as “knowing” one’s wife. However it is impossible to deny that God also sees sex as a ‘preventative’ act in marriage whereby we lower our sexual temptation by having regular relations with our spouse.

    “Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.” – I Corinthians 7:2(KJV)

    Paul does not say here anything about sex being for purposes of emotional and spiritual bonding(although I do not disagree that at it’s best sex can and should accomplish this in marriage too). But his purpose in this passage is to say couples should have regular relations so as not to be tempted by the devil to have sex outside of marriage.

    So if your future husband allows you to turn down sex on a whim he is sinning in two ways.
    1. He should not allow you to refuse to submit yourself to him, by doing so he in enabling the sin of rebellion in you as his wife.
    2. He is putting himself in a position to be sexually tempted by not taking the way of escape from that temptation that God has provided – sexual relations with his wife.

    Emily – you say you want sex to be a spiritual and emotional act. Guess what? As a wife to your future husband you can choose to make it an emotional and spiritual act every time by your right attitude.
    When he goes to initiate sex with you whether he rang your emotional bells or not YOU can choose to emotionally connect with him. YOU can choose to look into his eyes and connect with him. You can spark that connection each and every time. You need an emotional connection – make one!

    But another thing you miss is – in a healthy and spiritual marriage where a Christian husband sets up from the beginning with his bride to be what his expectations are in line with the Scriptures she will not deny him(expect for legit reasons and then give him a respectful) raincheck and there will be no need for an explicit demand. It is implied and she knows the consequences for refusal. Occasionally there may be a need for “tune-ups” from time to time where he has to give her gentle reminders if she starts falling into patterns of forgetting that she cannot deny him, but for the most part he no longer has to demand – she simply submits.

    I have not had to remind my wife about her sexual duties in a very long time. Is the emotional side missing sometimes? Does she not fake it sometimes? Sure. But as far as physical denial that really has not been a problem anymore. This is because I took a stand and made it clear that I would not accept it.

  17. Dash,
    Cherrypicking? Nope. No offense, I think you are ignorant of Pope John Paul II’s teachings.
    This book I am reading right now is written by him. Let me share with you a few things I have highlighted..
    “A person’s rightful due is to be treated as an object of love, not as an object for use.”
    “Love between man and woman cannot be built without sacrifices and SELF-DENIAL”
    “If desire is predominant it can deform love between man and woman and rob them both of it.”
    “No one can substitute his act of will for mine. It does sometimes happen that someone very much wants me to want what he wants. This is the moment when the impassable frontier between him and me, which is drawn by free will, becomes most obvious. I may not want that which he wants me to want.”
    “But it is usually the result of egoism in the man, who failing to recognize the subjective desires of the woman in intercourse, seeks merely his own satisfaction”

    It’s fine if you disagree with him. Rollo and Dalrock I’m sure will think he’s very ‘blue pill.’
    Just don’t say I’m cherrypicking.

  18. Emily: ”Note, we are not talking about a situation where the wife is willingly having sex, and enjoying it emotionally but not physically. In this case, the wife is deriving pleasure from her husband’s pleasure, and that is unitive.”

    Yes, that’s what we’re talking about. Barring very unusual circumstances, a woman who loves and values her husband should want to please him because she derives pleasure from his pleasure. This is important because when a woman is married and starts a family life becomes hectic and all sorts of stressors get in the way, and everyone has far less time discretionary time. If she doesn’t put her husband’s sexual needs somewhere at the top of that long list of priorities it is highly likely you will start to neglect him and this will impact the marriage. Any man with a normal, healthy sex drive who doesn’t have sex regularly with his spouse will begin to feel unloved and neglected.

    ”Emily – you say you want sex to be a spiritual and emotional act. Guess what? As a wife to your future husband you can choose to make it an emotional and spiritual act every time by your right attitude.”

    Exactly so.

  19. Jeff:
    ”My response would be grunting and umphing is all that is needed in marriage. A woman doesn’t need intimate conversation or physical affection to stay alive, so the husband doesn’t even need to touch her.”

    I think that’s a pretty good analogy!
    “Wanting conversation is childish! What are you, a little girl who needs to hear spoken sentences, like a toddler needs a teething toy or rattle to bang?”
    Sometimes the absurd can highlight absurdity most effectively.

    ”I try very hard to get her aroused, and when she does it’s fantastic, but I give up and just have a release when she seems like she will not get in the mood.
    I also agree and disagree with Rollo. My wife must be somewhat of an outlier. She is easily aroused to jealousy, but she is one to get depressed or shutdown instead of up her desire. And this goes for any situation. I am way higher on the SMV and MMV than she is and this makes her sad, not more desirable for me.”

    From my perspective, I’m more aroused when I feel desired and desirable to my spouse. If I didn’t feel desired and desirable I wouldn’t be aroused…ever. To be candid, I’d feel depressed all of the time.

    Kind of steering off course for perspective: I’m a believer in habits and behavior conditioning (Stephen Covey stuff). Scott Adams has an adage, which is essentially Covey’s work simplified into a single sentence: “It’s the system, not the goal”

    The point is positive habit patterns, practiced over time, are far more effective for success (in any endeavor) than having a goal and trying to obtain it. But the reason behind this is the most interesting thing (and the whole point of this circumlocutory example, and I’ll bold it). Goals can seem too overwhelming for the human mind.
    “I’m going to write a book” is overwhelming for most people and seems too far away. That’s why only about 1 out of 100 people who start a book ever finish. However, if you think of it in terms of “I’ll write three pages every day” this seems more obtainable. Result is, after a few short months of writing a couple of pages each day and you’ve got a book. Same with weight loss and so forth. Small habit patterns/ objectives work best for the human mind (most human minds anyway, people aren’t all the same, but it’s true enough).

    In that vein, I don’t know anything about your situation but from what you’ve indicated above (your SMV higher, lots of IOI from others and so forth) it seems possible that your wife perceives the “competition” as too steep so rather than reacting positively she becomes overwhelmed, jealous, depressed, and difficult to arouse.

    My husband expects to be serviced regular, but he is very considerate toward me and values me as well. I feel secure, loved, and deeply desired so it is mutually beneficial reciprocity. Fwiw, women look at him all the time. If they didn’t I would think there was something wrong with those women, it doesn’t bother me. He says I’m “not the jealous type” but I’m not sure that is true. I feel loved and desired enough that it doesn’t bother me (and I rather like it, actually).

  20. Emily, you said: “But that isn’t the only situation we are discussing; if the wife is not enjoying sex emotionally, or is unwillingly having sex, or has not achieved physical pleasure for a long period of time, then the problems need to be addressed. If a husband has sex with his wife while she is in this state (or vice versa!) it is completely destructive. Indeed, simply serving as an object of your husband’s sexual release is dehumanizing and, in most cases, will only increase the fear and disgust of sex that many conservative Christian girls are raised with.”

    As I said previously, some relationships (like mine) require groundwork to be laid in order to start a healthy sexual relationship. However, once that is laid, the vast majority of women do not go from having a good sexual relationship to suddenly fearing and being disgusted by sex (outside of situations of rape which I cannot speak of d/t lack of experience). I absolutely agree that if a wife is showing signs of no longer enjoying sex in general (rather than every single instance of it), both spouses should put a priority on figuring out why. This is not a situation that should go on for months, and definitely not years.

    Having sex with one’s husband when they are not in the mood is not the same as “simply serving as an object of your husband’s sexual release”. This would only happen if the husband was not pursuing them outside of the bedroom (or as Larry would say “knowing them”), or made no effort to make sex enjoyable for them. However, even then two wrongs do not make a right. Women should not cut off sex at this point but should do all they can to inspire romance and better sex in their husbands (while faithfully bringing it up in prayer). Very few men will not react positively to the statement “you know Honey, if you do ‘x’ as part of foreplay/sex, it would really make me crazy for you”.

  21. Bgr,

    I’ve always been civil on blogs, didnt know using two names was an issue. I could use vulgar words for how rollo was treated on his own blog, and he doesnt censor because he lets everyone see how these women act when he doesnt go along with their thinking.

    Rollo is not an alpha. I believe he has stated as much. Alphas do not remain married for 20 yrs to 1 person. That is only your perception of his frame. As a christian I try to refrain from putting anyone down in a harsh manner, but want light shown on darkness.

    Someone who is beta but has alpha frame is not alpha. An alpha who shows beta is not beta…. You get the impression that a cop is alpha becauae of what he has done and does, but when you see him in social situations or know his past he becomes one of thw biggest white nights you ever knew. I would say ernest hemingway alpha…. Zane grey…. Beta

    Thanks for keeping me around. I would read any way. Your stuff is good.

  22. Anna,

    You are wrong. Most men would bend over backward to accomplish X if that would turn their wife on. Here is the problem…. Hypegamy. What once was X and turned her on is now not even in the ball park close to turning her on. Why? because for some reason it doesnt induce arousal like it did and that is what perplexes men. Wife is hyper sexual before marriage with a glance and a caress, get married and bam! Nothing arouses them. This is what has brought Larrys blog forward . Sex IS a marrital obligation. If that makes a woman grossed out or sick thinking he only uses her, she has bought satans lie. Her frigidness when the husband has done no wrong is sin. If she believes she has to feeeeeel romantic love to get arousd she has bought the lie.

    If my wife said do X and it worked? Lol. I would be all over it. The problem is most of us did x and it came to nothing.

  23. Jeff, I never said that a wife needed to feel romantic love in order to get aroused.I was saying that the only time a wife has a legitimate reason to feel used (which I then stated did NOT justify withdrawing sex) is when her husband treated her as an object to get off with. Do some women feel this way when it is in fact not the case? Sure. Do some men feel they are not doing this when they in fact are? Also yes.

    It is a mistake to believe that women get married and then bam…sex goes out the window just because it happened to you and other men you know. Rest assured I know plenty of couples in real life, not to mention online (Dragonfly, Liz, etc.) who still have a healthy sex life far past the newlywed stage.

    What I wrote was to address situations where a wife is trying to ‘wake-up’ her husband (so to speak) either inside or outside the bedroom, so they could have a real sexual relationship as part of a whole relationship. It sounds like the opposite is true in your case, so likely what I said wouldn’t apply to you.

    I will say however that if my husband constantly implied how much hotter he was than me, or that he would always be with a woman and whether that woman was me or someone else was neither here nor there to him, I likely wouldn’t find his presence very enjoyable either. It is one thing for a woman to turn her head at the sight of you. It is quite another for a woman to live with you day in and day out, putting up with your annoying habits (lol, we all have them), and the rude things you will inevitably say (as we all do).

  24. Also, Jeff, you mention hypergamy as something that perplexes men, but if anything, men should understand this more than women. Men (in general) have a more hypergamous nature than women do. Larry has written about this before. Most men do not want straight up missionary style to be the only kind of sex they get. Just like you will probably want your wife to be willing to try new things, you might need to change your game around as well. It seems incredibly selfish (in general, not just you) to expect sexual variety from one’s wife and then give up when the same old trick doesn’t work the same as it used to on her.

  25. I understood what you wrote. Much appreciated. Yes we all have annoying habits. How do i know i am above her? Well i am 45. She is 54. That is only one thing, want me to go on? Just stating the obvious. Look up AWALT and NAWALT. Are there outliers? Yes. And i would say my wife is an outlier. She is the woman of my youth and i highly value her. I have come to realize how she feels is not my problem. How i treat her IS my problem. I walked on egg shells and performed xyz for her and did EXACTLY what she wanted in order to have more true intimacy and NOTHING worked. She beared no fruit as you will. I thought i was going insane until i found rollo and dalrock and realized AWALT. I went through the exact stages of red pill described. Now i am trying to live Godly and put it behind me. It still gets frustrating… But God bless you and others for even putting up with my words here.

  26. Thanks for the context, Jeff. That explains a lot.
    If you were doing all of those things and trying to heighten the intimacy and make her feel valued and she continued to respond that way there really is little else you could do.

  27. “Alphas do not remain married for 20 yrs to 1 person.”

    Hm. So…no alphas are Christians? Kind of like no atheists in foxholes?

  28. Jeff, I wasn’t denying the fact that your SMV was likely higher (even if you were the same age, your statement would likely be true), but rather that implying that to her was not likely to endear yourself to her. I am very familiar with NAWALT and AWALT. I have read enough of Roosh V and Matt Forney to have a deep dislike and distrust of the red pill. It has caused numerous problems in and before my marriage and my husband (fiance at the time) requested I stop reading them for awhile. For instance, apparently all women want a man who has slept around (or as Roosh would put it been “approved vaginally”) with other women. Apparently all women also say they are virgins when really they’ve slept with more men then they can remember. Apparently all women only marry men for their money. It’s almost as if women like me didn’t exist.

    However, I am very sorry to hear that you have put so much effort into your relationship with your wife without much fruit. That must be very miserable. If she is not even trying to have good sex with you, than that is indeed sin on her part and I’m sorry that you are suffering the results of it. From your first comment it seems like things might be getting a little better (unless I am misunderstanding you), and I truly hope that is the case.

  29. @ Emily. I won’t return the favor and call you ignorant but I will not let the Protestants on this board be left with the idea that JP II taught anything about sex and marriage that was not perfectly consistent with traditional catholic teaching. Which is very red pill indeed. Just go ask your priest what the Church teaches on this subject. You need not debate internet strangers to find clarity on this subject. That’s one of the beautiful things about being RC. Knowing the Truth and submitting to it. You are Catholic aren’t you? You are submissive to legitimate authority aren’t you?

  30. AnnaMS,

    Your Statement:

    “Having sex with one’s husband when they are not in the mood is not the same as “simply serving as an object of your husband’s sexual release”. This would only happen if the husband was not pursuing them outside of the bedroom (or as Larry would say “knowing them”), or made no effort to make sex enjoyable for them. However, even then two wrongs do not make a right. Women should not cut off sex at this point but should do all they can to inspire romance and better sex in their husbands (while faithfully bringing it up in prayer). Very few men will not react positively to the statement “you know Honey, if you do ‘x’ as part of foreplay/sex, it would really make me crazy for you”.”

    I think you and I are on the same page on this issue.

    These are two Biblical principles related to a man knowing his wife outside the bedroom and a wife knowing her husband inside the bedroom.

    A husband “knowing” his wife outside the bedroom should never be a precondition of her “knowing” him inside the bedroom.

    A wife “knowing” her husband inside the bedroom should never be a precondition of him “knowing” her outside the bedroom.

    Now optimally this is how God would like it work:
    A husband makes a real and genuine attempt to know his wife out the bedroom and a wife makes a real and genuine attempt to know her husband inside the bedroom. When both do this – you will have a strong and powerful relationship. But when either one of these are missing, you will have a dysfunctional relationship.

    But we must also acknowledge this truth because we live in a sin cursed world:
    Sometimes a man makes genuine attempts to know his wife outside the bedroom which she gladly receives but she still makes no attempt to know him inside the bedroom.
    Sometimes a woman makes genuine attempts to know her husband inside the bedroom which he gladly receives but he still makes no attempt to know her outside the bedroom.

    But in any case, a husband does not have the right to cut off his wife verbally and emotionally outside the bedroom because she is not doing her part inside the bedroom and a wife does not have right to cut off her husband physically inside the bedroom because he is not doing what he should be doing outside the bedroom.

    Sometimes we must confront the sin of our spouses, and other times we must learn to cope with the sin of our spouses. Now I would argue that the confronting and coping looks very different from the husbands point of view as the head of his wife than it does from a wife’s view who is to submit to and respect her husband.

    Also we must realize that whether we think it is fair or not, God makes certain sins as cause for divorce that break a marriage and other sins we must simply learn to cope with.

    A husband cannot divorce his wife for not emotionally knowing him in the bedroom(as long as she at least yields her body physically) and a wife cannot divorce her husband for not emotionally knowing her outside the bedroom as long as he is caring for her physical needs and not physically abusing her.

    Put simply – Emotional neglect or abuse while still being sinful activities are never grounds for Biblical divorce.

  31. Dash
    “JP II taught anything about sex and marriage that was not perfectly consistent with traditional catholic teaching.”
    What he wrote in ‘Love and Responsibility’ was perfectly consistent with the Church’s teachings, and perfectly reflective of his own position on the subject. Fyi, I am a very faithful Catholic. I’ve talked to my priest at length about this. I’ve asked these questions online.
    I’m not sure whether you are a Catholic or not. You don’t seem to understand our teachings. For example you said:
    “That’s why the RCC would annul Ketatur’s marriage as lacking the unitive aspect. Unitive aspect means sex.”
    Unitive aspect does not mean sex. it includes sex but anyway…
    The point is, it’s highly unlikely the church would annul a marriage for lack of sex, especially if the woman is experiencing psychological or physical difficulties. Go ask if you don’t believe me.

    Catholic teaching is not ‘red pill’ at all. If your wife is not having sex with you I’m quite sure the teaching of the church is NOT to seek an annulment but to find out the problem and be celibate until that happens. The Catholic Church recommends complimentarian marriages. And in fact, the Catechism hardly even talks about submission, but rather focuses on the husband and wife achieving harmony.
    You think the Church would support ‘dread game’ or coercing your wife for sex? Well you are entirely wrong. Do you think JPII would support the position of BGR or TRP? Yeah right. What evidence do you have?

  32. Lol, Anna. We are suppose to know hypergamy more than women?

    Most of the men who suffer from a lack of intimacy with their wife would love to have mercy sex let alone mission only with a wife who smiles and says that feels good. Most of the men that are suffering from lack of intimacy is like a man in the desert who is dehydrating and the only person who can give them a drink has a cistern unwilling to let them have a drink, but it gets better…. when she does she lets him have a sip only. Oh, thank you so much. Imagine if you son was thirsty and asked for a glass of water, would you say no? So yeah the whole variety thing is a straw man. I have never once heard a christian man say they need variety. If you move up the line toward extreme that would mean different scenarios and ultimately other women. No I do not buy into that and absolutely no christian redpiller would either. If a man wants a different position I wouldn’t put that into the category. What you are describing is sisyphean and that is exactly what christians should be steering clear of. Let your yes be yes and let your no be no.

    Also, much appreciated and it is getting better. She has told therapist that when she does have good sex with me it is fantastic sex, but once per month like that is hard so it gets frustrating. Not that we are once per month, but that she is only wanting it enthusiastically once per month. Ignore my venting on here and see it for that. I respect all your comments even if I disagree with some.

    Liz,

    I do not believe there are christian alphas, as putting yourself under ANY authority puts you in the category of less than alpha. If you want to go to the extreme and say what about Mr. ABC? I will concede that yes, he has to pay his taxes so he is subordinate to the IRS.

    I do not believe in the dichotomy of alpha or beta. I know a couple of alpha types and they have forced themselves into a lonely existence. I know many many betas with very strong alpha characteristics. God is the Alpha and the Omega, others are purely trying their best to live their life on their terms and they are paying the price. They are either in prison, or close to it living in their own prison of sorts.

    BGR,

    Much appreciated, thank you.

  33. Anna,
    To your first point, I agree. My point was just that if the wife has a fear and disgust of sex, and for that reason she is not enjoying sex with her husband, then the husband forcing herself on her more will only further her fear and disgust. Many newlyweds go through this problem. This is what JPII meant by saying the man has to project himself emotionally into his wife’s world in order to understand her, instead of trying to tame her with constant sex.

    I agree that in general a wife should not deny her husband sexually. However, if she let’s him know that she is not in the mood, not emotionally or physically, then he should respect that. Even if it goes on for weeks. It can happen, we are human, we can get depressed, stressed etc (some women especially.) Sex in this case is absolutely destructive and dehumanizing because it would be impossible to sexually, spiritually or emotionally connect with your husband when you are merely having sex with him out of obedience and fear of discipline. Meanwhile the husband is losing sight of his wife as a human being, and is merely satisfying his own sexuality and egoism (especially if the wife is ‘faking it’ for the sake of his egoism, another thing JPII says not to do.)

    Liz,
    That isn’t the only case that we are talking about though. Most of the articles here have been about husbands who have wives who do not want to have sex with their husbands, or don’t enjoy it and haven’t enjoyed it for a long time. BGR’s advice to them has been to discipline them, or to keep having sex with them. That isn’t right.
    You seem to have a good relationship with your husband and are confident about your sexuality. Many women do not have that. Many are emotionally and sexually insecure. Their emotional needs are not being met, and the husband absolutely has the duty to ensure her emotional needs are being met (Husbands, love your wives, as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her.) I feel that narrative often gets missed here.

  34. Emily,

    Your Statement:

    “I agree that in general a wife should not deny her husband sexually. However, if she let’s him know that she is not in the mood, not emotionally or physically, then he should respect that. Even if it goes on for weeks. It can happen, we are human, we can get depressed, stressed etc (some women especially.) Sex in this case is absolutely destructive and dehumanizing because it would be impossible to sexually, spiritually or emotionally connect with your husband when you are merely having sex with him out of obedience and fear of discipline. Meanwhile the husband is losing sight of his wife as a human being, and is merely satisfying his own sexuality and egoism (especially if the wife is ‘faking it’ for the sake of his egoism, another thing JPII says not to do.)”

    The scriptures tell us that one of the reasons for marriage is to “avoid fornication” and the temptation of the Devil(I Corinthians 7:2-5).
    What you are teaching would in fact expose your husband to temptation by dereliction of your duty. It is one thing if your husband releases you from it for a brief period, but he has to be the judge of how long it goes on before he is allowing himself to be tempted.

    The beliefs you are espousing, whether they are of JPII or not are in direct contradiction to the written and infallible Word of God.

    God never ever places EMOTIONS above DUTY. EVER.

    Christ shed tears of blood in the garden grieving over the suffering he knew was coming his way, but it was his mission and it was his DUTY and he did not allow his EMOTIONS to cloud his DUTY.

    Emily – you have fallen for the lie that a man’s NEED to sexually connect with his wife is somehow base and fleshly.

    This contempt for the God given male sexual nature is shown in these statements:
    “Meanwhile the husband is losing sight of his wife as a human being, and is merely satisfying his own sexuality and egoism

    No my friend, it is every bit as spiritual as your need to connect with him outside the bedroom. If you go into marriage elevating your need to connect emotionally over his need to connect physically you will have a lot of problems.

    I do not disagree with you that a husband ought to know his wife(talk to her, connect with her emotionally outside the bedroom). However a husbands DUTY to connect with his wife emotionally is NEVER a prerequisite to her performing her duty in the bedroom. One sin does not justify another sin.

    And on the issue of “emotional needs” we need to be careful as that is a very loaded thing. “emotional needs” if we are not careful can be like jello.

    You see meeting a man’s sexual needs are very simple. We are simple creatures. If you have sex with us, show us you desire us during sex(or least fake that you do) and use a little variety by shaking up the time and place and positions – our needs in that area are met.

    But for you ladies -“meeting your emotional needs” can mean anything on any given day.

    Husbands should talk to their wives. Sometimes we just need to hug her when she has had a bad day(like my wife had today). But some men have fallen into the deep dark black hole of trying to meet their wife’s ever changing emotional needs to the neglect of their jobs and other responsibilities and that cannot be allowed to happen.

    When a man allows his wife’s “emotional needs” to dictate the direction of his life and family this is going against God’s will and design in marriage and the family. I am not saying we should not attempt to connect with our wives emotionally, but we cannot allow our wives emotions to rule us or them for that matter.

    That is one of the many reasons why God placed man(a creature of duty) over woman (a creature of emotion).

  35. Larry,
    Avoiding fornication is about self-mastery. St.Paul did say that, but he also said that it is better to be completely celibate. For the men who are unable to resist temptation, they should marry. If a husband can resist the temptation before marriage of fornicating in order to please God, I’m sure he can do it after marriage, temporarily, in order to please God and ensure sex with his wife is not destructive. I think it’s important for men to tame themselves in order to reach sexual harmony with their wives…

    Many times in your articles you are describing sex that is completely non-unitive. In the article that recieved a lot of press, you said not to look at your wife’s face. Even you cannot say that it’s unitive when your wife is unwillingly giving you sex.

    “So if your future husband allows you to turn down sex on a whim he is sinning in two ways.
    1. He should not allow you to refuse to submit yourself to him, by doing so he in enabling the sin of rebellion in you as his wife.”
    I don’t think a wife should deny her husband. However, if she is not feeling emotionally or physically ready for sex, then the husband should respect that. He should not give her the option of rebelling by insisting on sex in this situation.

    “Emily – you say you want sex to be a spiritual and emotional act. Guess what? As a wife to your future husband you can choose to make it an emotional and spiritual act every time by your right attitude.
    When he goes to initiate sex with you whether he rang your emotional bells or not YOU can choose to emotionally connect with him. YOU can choose to look into his eyes and connect with him.”

    I am a human, a slave to my own feelings, emotions, experiences. Sometimes it is impossible to connect with someone. I don’t want to have sex w my husband in that situation. i want him to talk to me, help me. Marriage is not about sex, it’s about supporting each other emotionally, spiritually and sexually. And if the first two do not exist, even just in one instance, the couple cannot and should not have sex.

  36. Emily,

    I didn’t feel like talking or listening to my wife and this went on for even months, because well you know I didn’t feel like it. Sore throat, TV is better to listen to plus if I wanted to talk by all means I can talk to a friend or relative it doesn’t have to be heard. If she thinks that’s cruel or mean she just doesn’t understand me and hasn’t gotten “into” my emotional world. For her or any therapist to tell me I have to talk or listen to her is verbal rape. The more I have to when I don’t want to just makes me want to talk and listen to her less and less. It’s just disgusting to have to listen to her when I’m not in the mood or not emotionally attached to her at any given moment when she wants someone to listen to her. By any means all I hear is blah, blah, blah any way.

    To your first point, I agree. My point was just that if the husband has an annoyance and disgust of listening or talking, and for that reason he is not enjoying listening or talking with his wife, then the wife forcing herself verbally on him more will only further his annoyance and disgust. Many newlyweds go through this problem. This is what JPII meant by saying the woman has to project herself emotionally into her husband’s world in order to understand him, instead of trying to tame him with constant talking and forced listening.

    I agree that in general a husband should not deny his wife communication. However, if he let’s her know that he is not in the mood, not emotionally or physically, then she should respect that. Even if it goes on for weeks. It can happen, we are human, we can get depressed, stressed etc (some men especially.) Talking and listening in this case is absolutely destructive and dehumanizing because it would be impossible to talk/listen, spiritually or emotionally connect with your wife when you are merely listening and talking with her out of obedience and annoyance of discipline. Meanwhile the wife is losing sight of her husband as a human being, and is merely satisfying her own whining and egoism (especially if the husband is ‘faking it’ for the sake of her egoism, another thing JPII says not to do.)

  37. BGR, I think we do agree here. We don’t agree on what discipline should look like, but the idea that knowing one’s wife and having sex with one’s husband are marital duties that are not prerequisites of the other, we agree.

    Jeff, BGR wrote articles about polygamy that details how men have a desire for more sexual variety than women do. I don’t agree with the conclusions he draws, but he details the biology adequately enough, and better than I could. Since you follow red pill teachings, I’m surprised you haven’t read stuff on it. I don’t doubt that if monthly missionary is all a man can get, he will crave that monthly time. However, outside of sexless marriages (which marriages like that are quickly becoming), most men prefer more variety. Note that I said most. If that is not the case for you, there’s no shame in that. Also, please feel free to vent to me at least (within BGR’s comment policy of course). It sounds like you’re in a terrible situation. Glad to hear it is somewhat better.

    Emily, first of all, I would never defend (and neither would Larry), the idea of a man forcing himself on his wife. I also know from personal experience what fear of sex is like and how it can cause difficulties in beginning a sexual relationship. In these instances, as long as the woman is making forward progress rather than just accepting a sexless existence, she needs to be allowed to proceed at her own pace. My husband was very gracious with me here, and we did have the first month of our marriage without sex (intercourse at least). But in the grand scheme of things, that’s not a huge deal. However, most women who don’t want sex aren’t in that category. They are the women who were initially fine with sex and then lost their enthusiasm for it. This is an entirely different situation where the women truly is acting unBiblically. I don’t support disciplining the wife like Larry does, but I do agree in this instance a wife should still offer, or at least consent to, sex even when not in the mood. And I agree that a husband should accept that sex, while doing all he can to get her in the mood. However, like Jeff describes, achieving mutual arousal isn’t always possible. The whole part where husbands are called to love their wives like Christ loved the church might be talked about less here, or it might just be less sensationalized, I couldn’t tell you. But it doesn’t make either of them less true.

  38. Jeff, stop trolling

  39. Anna,

    I think in general the PUA Redpill men want variety. No, I could careless besides if the man is the leader and if he lovingly and gently roles his wife this way and that I don’t put this in the category of variety, but I am probably wrong.

    I do agree with you on the discipline issue. We are talking about continuous unrepentant sin. Women who deny their husbands sex are not sinning one time. They might ask for forgiveness, but they are regenerate sinners within marriage. The husband as leader is trying to correct this. He has an obligation to help her not only for her, but for him as well. The word submit used in Eph. is the same that is used as a military commander and subordinate. What type of discipline do you recommend as this goes on for years if not decades?

    Counseling? Really? I think it is established that pastors blame the husbands. That is factual.
    Secular counseling? It’s worse than Nouthetic or “christian” counseling.
    Talk with her…. same thing. Sorry doesn’t cut it.

    One of the things I came to realize is watching my wife’s behavior, not listening to her words or intentions. I have come to see that AWALT, I believe what they do, not what they say. Mean? No, just straight up biblical. Your yes is yes, no is no. When a wife says sorry we can have more sex and then she continues to deny sex, that is hogwash. When she says sorry then allows sex for him, that is true repentance with intent to change. Getting it perfect is not required, just some where close. Anything else is evil and a form of deceit…. oh by whom? The Deceiver….. Satan.

  40. Emily,

    Lol. Not a troll. I have been on Rollo and Dalrock’s posts for years now. I found this site (can’t remember how) couple of weeks ago. Great content. Actually can’t figure out why he only has small number of comments as this is really good stuff.

    If that is all you have Emily… Lol.

  41. Emily,

    Your Statement:

    “Avoiding fornication is about self-mastery. St.Paul did say that, but he also said that it is better to be completely celibate.
    St.Paul did say that, but he also said that it is better to be completely celibate. For the men who are unable to resist temptation, they should marry. If a husband can resist the temptation before marriage of fornicating in order to please God, I’m sure he can do it after marriage, temporarily, in order to please God and ensure sex with his wife is not destructive.”

    Yes Paul said it was better to remain celibate IF you have the gift of celibacy.

    “For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that.” – I Corinthians 7:7 (KJV)

    If you do not have the gift of celibacy then you have in its place the gift of sex within you. Now this gift manifests itself in a much stronger fashion in men than in women.

    I think Emily you are not aware of the blatant contradiction you have made in your own statements:

    “I think it’s important for men to tame themselves in order to reach sexual harmony with their wives…
    I am a human, a slave to my own feelings, emotions, experiences. Sometimes it is impossible to connect with someone. I don’t want to have sex w my husband in that situation.”

    So lets get this straight. Men are wrong for not “taming” their sexual feelings but God is fine with women being slaves to their “own feelings, emotions, experiences”? Do you not see the inherent contradiction in that statement?

    Your Statement:

    “Marriage is not about sex, it’s about supporting each other emotionally, spiritually and sexually. And if the first two do not exist, even just in one instance, the couple cannot and should not have sex.”

    While marriage is not ALL about sex, it is very much about sex. Before the modern romantic weddings we have today do you know how they married in Bible times? The very first act was for a man to take the woman into the tent or room and have sex with her. It was the act of sex. Then the ceremonies and celebrations commenced.

    Do you ever wonder why God refers to marriage as the two becoming “one flesh”, as opposed to “one heart”, “one mind”, “one spirit”? At its core marriage is a one flesh(sexually based) relationship. Emotions are a result of duty and fidelity to that “one flesh” relationship – not a prerequisite to it.

    You keep getting hung up that phrase “unitive”. That is nice and all, but that word and neither is that principle presented in the Scriptures. Basically you have used this “unitive” phrase to try and say God only means for sex to occur when both parties are in the mood. However this goes against the direct teaching of Scripture. You cannot read I Corinthians 7 and come away with any other reading than the only MUTUAL thing about sex is when a couple MUTUALLY agree NOT to have sex. They don’t both have to be the mood, if either one desire it it is to be given. Period.

    Being “a slave” to your “own feelings, emotions, experiences” is what will actually be “destructive” to your future marriage if you sexually deny your husband simply because you are not in the mood. I pray the Lord will change your heart on this as you look at his Word.

  42. AnnaMS,

    Your Statement:

    “In these instances, as long as the woman is making forward progress rather than just accepting a sexless existence, she needs to be allowed to proceed at her own pace.”

    I agree with you on this. The key phrase is “forward progress”. Does the wife have the intent to make sex better? To get to the place of regularly occurring sex? Then in this case a husband ought to exercise patience and grace toward his wife. It is very common that men have to do this in the first months of marriage as their new brides are getting used to sex, or is some cases trying to overcoming physical or psychological issues that are causing issues. The wife needs to be tender with her husband about this and the husband needs to be tender with his wife.

    The situation I address here is not that of a woman that you are describing that is truly trying and making forward progress. The issue I am attacking is the attitude of some women that sex is just a selfish and fleshly desire men have. It is the attitude that a woman’s emotions and feelings are to be put on pedestal that trumps her duties to her husband, her children and her home(and not just in the area of sex).

  43. Ugh Jeff… it’s really annoying that so many RP guys have infiltrated this blog.
    Being on Dalrock’s blog for years..? Your poor wife.

  44. Jeff, you ask about discipline, and that’s a great question. I had actually discussed that with my husband over lunch and he and I both agree that if all else has been tried to no avail, then the man might just have to accept that he is in a sucky situation. Just like a woman when her husband makes no attempts to know her outside of sex, it sucks, but it happens. I do think having conversations about this prior to marriage is important and can help set the tone of the marriage (although obviously not a foolproof solution). My husband also suggested the man asking his wife if she actually loved him enough to be sexual with him even when she wasn’t in the mood. I realize that some women will turn around and say that he should love her enough to not pursue sex, so again not a foolproof solution (although it could potentially pave the way for discussions about when she needs to allow for sex and when he needs to back off…which would probably be better than the situation he was in currently). I asked my husband about cutting off funds or reducing dates, and he said that could potentially be okay, but it needs to be done with the right motives, which makes it very difficult. If you are doing that in order to get more sex, than no. If you’re doing it because she cut you off from sex so now you’ll cut her off from what she wants, again no. If you’re doing it because you truly think it is what is best for her outside of your desires or wishes, than that would be okay. But I’d have to know a couple personally before I’d actually offer that advice d/t there being so many situations where it wouldn’t be advisable IMO.

  45. Emily,

    And your point is? I really do understand where you are coming from. I do. There is overt feminism and then there is covert sisterhood/feminine imperative that is feminism light. Women today have more control than any time in recent history. I could go on, but the women of our grandmothers and great grandmothers might of had to deal with plumbing issues, but they were treated femininely. Today men are even called sexist for opening a door for a woman. Women are actually treated worse now than then, but like an unwise person would do, feminists and the sisterhood clean and claw more thinking it will help.

    I urge you to look at the statistics. Girl power has caused more abuse now than then. BGR is trying to protect you from a jezebel influence that has gripped christianity. You can deny it, but you only deceive yourself.

    BGR,

    Very good comment and accurate. Now, here comes the, “but they were treated like property and treated like cattle!” comments. Nope, they were treated very well. Consumation was done in order to prove virginity and if they groom found her unchaste that is when divorce for adultery would take place.

  46. Anna,

    Good conversation. So in actuality the husband is not in authority, or he is responsible for his wife and her decisions, accountable under Christ when he present her to Him, but cannot do anything to about it. Do I have that right? Regardless of the situation, if I read 1P 3:1-6, what do I get? Sarah even obeyed Abraham when he told her to Lie. I thought lying was a sin… my mistake. Eph 5:24 submit to your husbands in everything… my mistake.

    Yes you can throw in another straw man and sight other scripture, but please tackle those two with real scenarios for me. 1P 3:7 … as a weaker vessel, because she is a woman… should we be pushed here and there with her moods and emotions? Oh, ok my mistake again.

    Why in the world would Peter and thus God say that she is a weaker vessel? A weaker vessel should be treated with compassion and understanding. A kind and gentle word, but as time goes by a rebuke needs to be made and discipline made. If husbands are the head of their wife like Jesus is to the Church, exactly why would he rebuke and correct the church and even threaten the church to change or else? What a bully….

    Reminds me of a pastor who counseled my wife and I.

    Pastor: You are ultimately responsible and the leader.
    Me: She is unsubmissive regardless of her disrespect. She will not follow or let me teach her.
    Pastor: If you lead her in the direction she will go, she will follow.
    Me: So what you are saying is that if I lead her in the direction that she wants to go, she’ll follow?
    Pastor: That’s correct.
    Me: What if it’s the wrong way?
    Pastor: Then you are leading her the wrong way.
    Me: Am I missing something? My intent was to lead her the right way, but she wants to go another way and you tell me to lead her in the way she’ll go? Am I not leading from behind in that case?
    Pastor: I, uh. What I mean is uhm. If you lead her the right way she’ll follow.
    Me: My intention is to lead her the right way from the beginning, but she insists she is right and will only go in the direction she wants. So say that again.
    Pastor: You must give up your preference and that is your sacrifice for your wife.
    Me: So I give up my preference to lead her in the right direction for her wrong direction?
    Pastor: Is it hot in here? I’m hot… we’ll see you next week.

    He asked me straight up what I want him to counsel us on. I told him headship…. he never mentioned it. He can’t, pastors simply cannot teach it because there in questions come up for what if she will not be lead. What is headship? What does that authority say? What are the consequences to you in the eyes of Christ and what are the consequences if you do not have the courage to wash her with the word and present her…. as a Godly woman, and not as a “feminist light”.

  47. ” Women are actually treated worse now than then”
    Than when? Women have always been treated badly. While I don’t like radical feminism, there is no denying that our lives are better now than they have ever been. A woman can do whatever she wants now, which is something we never had the right to do before. The only problem is that radical feminists and misogynists are trying to control our freedom.

    You know the funny thing? The manosphere really was a ‘red pill’ for me. It’s made me recognize that I shouldn’t take what I have nowadays as a woman for granted.

    Oh, by the way.. I noticed something really amusing on Dalrock’s blog that really shows the nature of the manosophere. But first, would you agree that the opinions of the people commenting on a forum reflect the message of the forum somewhat? Yes? I would say so.
    So you really have to wonder how misogynistic the crap Dalrock rights is, that he attracts people who comment about support for corporal punishment, and that he had to specifically warn people to stop. You will notice that BGR does not have to explicitly warn readers to not support corporal punishment against wives. You know why? Cause regular commentators here are not insane.

  48. Jeff, I absolutely believe that a wife is to be subject to her husband in everything abiding by God’s rules. However, there is a difference between a wife being commanded to submit, and a husband taking it on himself to make his wife submit. I do not believe God holds a wife’s sins against her husband as long as he was encouraging her in Godliness. There may be areas where he himself has sinned (like if he was unequally yoked which was the root of his marital problems), but that is the extent to which God holds him responsible.

    Honestly, when it comes to going back to the original Greek, I am way out of my league here. I will ask my husband to answer your question more expertly tonight. I know he and I are in agreement on this.

    I will also say that there is definitely a chance I could be wrong. I think until we have achieved God’s knowledge in Heaven, that is something all of us should be willing to admit. I know some (like BGR) who would consider sexual denial to be sexual immorality and therefore cause for divorce. I don’t agree with that interpretation, but I can’t say I would judge those who would do so. My sister recently divorced her husband (alcoholic, porn user, sexual denial, and abandonment for all intents and purposes) who had bits and pieces of every reason allowed for divorce, but I’m not sure if he had enough of any one reason for it to be valid. I can’t say I wouldn’t have divorced him. I just don’t know if it was allowable from a Biblical mindset.

  49. AnnaMS,

    Your Statement:

    “Jeff, you ask about discipline, and that’s a great question. I had actually discussed that with my husband over lunch and he and I both agree that if all else has been tried to no avail, then the man might just have to accept that he is in a sucky situation. Just like a woman when her husband makes no attempts to know her outside of sex, it sucks, but it happens.”

    Let me first say that I do not always agree with all the methods or attitudes with which men discipline their wives. Some of what Jeff did may have been right and some of it may have been wrong. But I stand by the Biblical notion of a man disciplining his wife. As I stated in response to your husbands comments – there is a difference between being a leader and being an authority. Some people are leaders with no authority(all they can do is inspire others and guide them). But other leaders are also authorities. A husband is presented in the Scriptures as his wife’s leader and her authority.

    Authority and discipline go hand and hand – one cannot exist without the other. Now an authority may be limited in what discipline he can administer before he has to turn one over to a higher authority with more power to discipline further.

    The difference the two “sucky” situations you describe is this. While they are both sin – one is grounds for divorce and the other is not. There are many sins we must simply cope with as spouses. But cheating, abuse and chronic willful long term sexual denial are not among them. These break a marriage.

    A wife is not responsible for her husband, but as her authority a husband is responsible for his wife. He is responsible before God do everything within the powers God has given to him to try and steer his wife back to right path. Now at the end of the day she may still refuse and then he leaves her in God’s hands. But not before he has done everything in his God given power to do.

    Your Statement:

    “I asked my husband about cutting off funds or reducing dates, and he said that could potentially be okay, but it needs to be done with the right motives, which makes it very difficult. If you are doing that in order to get more sex, than no. If you’re doing it because she cut you off from sex so now you’ll cut her off from what she wants, again no. If you’re doing it because you truly think it is what is best for her outside of your desires or wishes, than that would be okay.”

    Anna – Sometimes our desires and wishes as authority figures line up with God’s desires and wishes. As a parent I desire that my children obey me. I desire that they talk respectfully to me. I desire that they do their chores that I ask of them. Those “desires” line up perfectly with what God desires for them. So when I discipline them for disobeying me, disrespecting me or not doing their chores that is not wrong for me to do even though it comes a place where I desire for them to do those things.

    In the same way – it is not wrong for a man to discipline his wife for sexually refusing him. His desire lines up directly with God’s commands to husbands and wives in marriage. Now should a husband always take a step back and make sure there is not sinful neglect on his part toward his wife? Absolutely. But once a husband has examined himself and the situation with his wife and determined that her refusal comes from a place of rebellion toward’s God’s design of sex in marriage then he needs to take active discipline measures to attempt to bring his wife back in line with God’s will for her life.

    Of course all of his decisions must be bathed in prayer. But God does not want a husband lifting his hands to heaven saying “Lord I have no power over this woman – change her”.

    Instead God wants men to lift their hands saying “God guide me in disciplining my wife, reveal to me any place I have wronged her so I can make it right first. Show me what to do and what measures to take. Help me to remain strong and steadfast”. And then only after he has exhausted all the means at his disposal he should then cry out to God saying “God I have done everything in my power that you have given me as my wife’s authority – I now leave her in your hands for further discipline”.

  50. Emily,

    Your Statement:

    “You will notice that BGR does not have to explicitly warn readers to not support corporal punishment against wives. You know why? Cause regular commentators here are not insane.”

    I actually get the domestic discipline guys emailing me and commenting all the time – I just delete the emails and comments so you guys never see them. Anything can be abused and Biblical discipline is one of those things.

    But I think if you let those comments stand it leaves readers with the impression that you might subtly agree with them. I have had to be very careful in moderating my comments lately and some have let go through and later deleted upon closer examination. But corporal punishment comments will never be allowed on this blog – and if one ever slips through please feel free to let me know and I will delete it(as well as ban that person from further comments).

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