Reverencing, Ravishing and Rollo

Rollo Tomassi runs “The Rational Male” blog and his “Red Pill” teachings have become very popular in the manosphere (He also has a couple of books).  He attacks the falsehoods of feminism primarily from a sociological and psychological perspective as opposed to the way I attack feminism on this blog primarily from a theological perspective and only secondarily from a psychological and sociological perspective.

He recently sent in a comment on my post “How a husband can enjoy sex that is grudgingly given by his wife”. Rather than just post a comment to him there, I felt my response to Rollo warranted its own post because I think it would be beneficial for my readers to see where Rollo and I agree and disagree on how men can tackle feminism in their marriages.

Rollo’s Statement

“While I might not endorse overt Dread for Christian men… http://therationalmale.com/2012/03/27/dread-games/

I would advise they become more aware of the opportunities that passive Dread represents in their marriages: http://therationalmale.com/2013/05/13/soft-dread/

Most Beta Christian men (which is to say 90%+) will proactively try to diffuse the sexual anxiety and tension necessary to inspire the ‘desired’ sex you describe here. They believe the pro-feminine lie that rapport, comfort and familiarity is what leads to sexual desire so they make every attempt to convince their wives that they have no need to worry or feel insecure that any other woman would want them sexually, much less appreciate them for being ‘good christian men’.

What they fail to grasp is that passionate sex inspired by genuine desire is the result of insecurity, anxiety and sexual tension. Most Christian men are conditioned to bypass this phase in seducing their wives, thinking that comfort and security are what will prompt her to being more sexual, but in doing so they kill the vibe before it can build. Comfort and rapport are post-orgasm, oxytocin effects, but Christian men believe they are prerequisites for sex. For the most part they are deathly afraid to embrace and exaggerate the uncertainty, spontaneity, anxiety and tension women need to feel sexual urgency.

You make sex another chore for a woman when you negotiate for her desire. Genuine desire cannot be negotiated. If you find yourself in a sexless (or passionless sex) relationship with your wife you need to embrace using soft dread situations to prompt her imagination. A woman’s imaginings are the best tool in you seduction toolbox, learn how to inspire them.

Make your wife unintentionally uncomfortable. Sexuality is spontaneous chemical reaction between two parties, not a process of negotiation. By its very nature passionate, desired sex is a result of being uncomfortable, uncertain and urgent. It might be an uncomfortable truth to most Christian men, but the best, most memorable, married sex you have won’t be the result of a pre-planned “Date Night” where you stage manage every event and nuance in advance; it will be the rough, hard-core, make-up sex you never thought you’d have after a near breakup inspired by the anxiety of the thought of never having you around anymore. “

My Response to Rollo

I have read many articles on your blog and I do find some truth about male/female interactions in what you say there.  You and I would agree there are many lies propagated by feminism, some of them psychological and others sociological.  Your blog is proof that that you need not be a Christian or even crack open a Bible to see feminism is a poisonous ideology.

The Biblical purposes of Marriage

But for me as a Christian, I have to look at marriage from a Biblical point of view.  If I truly believe the Bible is the Word of God, then I embrace him as my creator and designer.  He designed man, he designed woman and he designed marriage.

The spiritual purpose of marriage in God’s design (from a Biblical point of view) was for it to be a symbol of the relationship of God to his people. The temporal (earthly) reasons for marriage would include companionship, procreation, provision, protection and pleasure.

In this design he made man to be a symbol of himself and man plays out this symbol by leading her, protecting her, providing for her, teaching her and disciplining her. In this same design woman plays the part of humanity in how we are to depend on God for his leadership, his protection, his provision, his teaching and his discipline.   This is why a woman’s submission to her husband is so emphasized throughout Scripture, because it is symbolic of the submission that humanity is to have toward God.

Should Christian wives fear their husbands?

You talk about “dread” and I read your posts on that subject. In the Christian faith we have a similar concept when it comes to God that we are to “fear” him. This is not some sort of scary fear (like God is a monster), but it is a reverent fear.

This is why the Bible tells women to submit to their husbands “as unto the Lord” (Ephesians 5:22) – literally a wife is to submit to her husband as she would unto God himself. She is commanded by God to “see that she reverence her husband” (Ephesians 5:33).  The English word “reverence” in that passage is a translation of the Greek word “Phobeo” which literally means “to fear or be afraid” or “to reverence, venerate, to treat with deference or reverential obedience”.  In fact most of the time that Greek word “Phobeo” is translated as “fear” throughout the New Testament.

So should a wife Biblically speaking have a little healthy fear or dread of her husband?

Absolutely!

Today most Christian wives have ZERO fear or dread of their husbands even though the Bible commands them to. In fact I would argue that in most Christian marriages men are the ones who fear their wives.  

Men show their wives they are either afraid to lose them (be alone) or afraid of the prospect of divorce and the financial or child custody repercussions that it may bring.

Should men flirt with other women to invoke dread in their wives?

From a Christian perspective, I don’t agree with a man flirting with other women in order to invoke fear (or dread) in his wife. I actually believe that is dangerous because when men flirt or talk inappropriately to other women it leaves open a doorway to possible affairs.

However I think there is a grave difference between a man casually talking to a woman and flirting with her.  Some wives are so jealously possessive of their husbands that if they say two words to another women they get “the look”.  This ought not to be the case .

Also as I have stated many times on this blog a man should never be made to feel ashamed of his God given wiring to desire to look at beautiful women around him(whether in person, on TV or online).

The rules I teach to my teenage sons and the advice I give to other men is “glance, don’t gawk”. To gawk is to be rude not only to the women you are with, but also to the woman you are gawking at. To glance is to do what God wired every man’s brain to do and there is no shame in taking pleasure from tasteful glances of beautiful women.

The “there’s the door” method of invoking fear in one’s wife

I do think there are other ways to invoke a healthy or “soft dread” in a woman from a Biblical perspective.  One of these methods is the “there’s the door” method. If a wife feels her husband is afraid to lose her or that he is afraid of what she would do to him in a divorce (financial and child custody repercussions) then she will never have that reverence (fear) for her husband that God commands women to have in Ephesians 5:33.

So when a woman acts out in rebellion toward her husband and tries to act as if she does not need her husband or that other men would treat her better the Christian husband should tell his wife “there’s the door”.  Will some women be foolish enough to walk out that door? Yes.  But the moment a man allows his wife to put him in a position of fearing her, rather than her fearing him the relationship has just changed from the design God intended it to be.

Meeting your wife’s needs versus her wants

From the perspective of sexuality and getting your wife to desire sex with you I advise Christian men to demonstrate to their wives by their actions that there is a direct correlation between a wife reverencing and ravishing her husband and her getting some of her wants met. And I emphasize “some”.

As Christian husbands we are required by God to provide our women with food, clothing, shelter and sex. These provisions along with our leadership, protection, teaching and discipline of our wives is what the love of a Christian husband looks like. We are also required to know our wives (talk with them) and give them proper honor as our helpmeet.

The only Biblical ways a husband is released from these requirements and may put his wife away (divorce her) is if she abandons him, physically abuses him, physically denies him the act of sex or if she has sex with another man.

But while we are required to know our wives and talk to them, that does not mean we need to spend every bit of our free time in conversation with them. We do not need to hang on every word our wife says. While we are required to give them food, clothing and shelter – that food does not have be the fancy food she wants, that clothing does not have to be the fancy clothing she wants and that house does not have to be the fancy house she wants.

Connect reverencing and ravishing with her wants being met

Reverencing was a concept we already talked about from Ephesians 5:33.  A wife ravishing her husband has to do with her being sexually intoxicating to her husband based on Proverbs 5:19 “let her breasts satisfy thee at all times; and be thou ravished always with her love” and Christian wives have the wife in the Song of Songs as an excellent example of how a woman can show physical love to her husband.

So rather than a man pursing his wife by buying her flowers, taking her on dates and weekend getaways, buying her jewelry or just giving her more of his time he shows his wife that after and only after she does the right things – then these things come. 

And I don’t just mean she just rocks his world one night, and then he lavishes her with all these things.  No – she sees that in order to get “some” of her wants met she must FIRST reverence her husband outside the bedroom and she must ravish him inside the bedroom and this becomes the pattern of her behavior toward her husband.  If either the reverence or ravishing goes down, he pulls back on these other things so she understands the correlation.

But even if a woman does reverence and ravish her husband as she should the husband must make his wife realize that this is never a way to control him.  Some women are devious and they actually reverence and ravish their husbands in a manipulative way to get what they want or control all his time.  This is something a Christian husband cannot allow his wife to do.

Grace and Mercy in Christian marriage

I wanted to say something about the Christian concepts of grace and mercy and how they apply to us as Christian husbands. For us as Christian husbands in our representation of God in his relationship with his people we also need to show grace and mercy toward our wives.  This means sometimes we show them grace by giving them things they have not earned by their behavior and other times we show them mercy by not bringing the discipline on them that their behavior merits.

Conclusion

So Rollo – I think you and I agree on many of the problems, we just differ a bit on the solutions to those problems.  But I do think where you and I agree is that a man must not run around trying to earn his wife’s reference and ravishing but rather he should constantly be showing her through various actions that her having her wants met(as opposed to needs) is directly related to how well she serves him as her husband.

From a Christian perspective a wife ought to be reverencing and ravishing her husband simply because God commands it.  But it also helps to show that there is a correlation in the here and now when she does.

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149 thoughts on “Reverencing, Ravishing and Rollo

  1. I don’t see any reason to be on the defensive about my sex life. Where exactly is that one going to go?
    “I’m a good screw, REALLY! I do the nastiest shite, Lookit MEEEE!” Truly? Believe what you want.
    I’m not going to over share (unless it’s pertinent to the subject), and either way it would just be the equivalent of a humble brag and I might (like so so many people on the internet) be making it all up anyway.
    What I can do is assert the obvious, point to the proven, and highlight the absurd.
    -It’s pretty obvious (particularly to people who have sex regular and constant access to it) that female and male libidos are seldom aligned. Males want sex more.

    -Studies suggest that married people who have sex more are closer and have better relationships overall. Studies also show that more frequent sex raises libido…kind of a positive feedback loop thing. Studies also show that people who have sex more at better looking (but cause/effect might be called into question on that one).

    -It is absurd to suggest the adulterous “sin” is inspired and passionate whereas married “Christian” sex is not. It makes me wonder where a person is coming from when they suggest that. I’ve seen far too many of the saddest sacks known to humanity all around the world with easy access to barely legal pussy to believe that one. I’m sure someone is waking up in the gutter right now who is not a Christian and just did a bunch of naughty things found on porn with a piece of strange. There’s probably another person who calls himself/herself a Christian and just did the same thing. What a lucky, lucky gentleman/lady.

  2. Approach one:
    “I’m the man and leader here. I’m going to want sex a lot. This is the way it is going to be, or I can tell you right now we will have problems.”

    Approach two:
    “I’m the man and leader here. I’m going to want sex a lot. If you don’t provide it you know very well I can and will get it elsewhere.”

    For the life of me, I do not see how approach 2 is more “tingle inducing” or why those tingles would be more genuine and impassioned than approach one.

  3. Liz’s statement:

    “Approach one:
    “I’m the man and leader here. I’m going to want sex a lot. This is the way it is going to be, or I can tell you right now we will have problems.”

    Approach two:
    “I’m the man and leader here. I’m going to want sex a lot. If you don’t provide it you know very well I can and will get it elsewhere.”

    For the life of me, I do not see how approach 2 is more “tingle inducing” or why those tingles would be more genuine and impassioned than approach one.”

    Liz – you get the ‘A’ for so concisely framing the difference between the Biblical approach to sex(as an obligation and duty in the sacred covenant of marriage) and the Dread (TRP) approach. Again, well said.

  4. Thanks BGR.
    The reality is both statements might finessed a bit (there are probably smoother ways to go about it) but I think that pretty much succinct summarizes things (my INTJ might be showing). 🙂

  5. Approach one:
    “I’m the man and leader here. I’m going to want sex a lot. This is the way it is going to be, or I can tell you right now we will have problems.”

    Approach two:
    “I’m the man and leader here. I’m going to want sex a lot. If you don’t provide it you know very well I can and will get it elsewhere.”

    You are ‘saying’ the same thing in different phrases. Inspiring dread is demonstration, not explication. Ultimatums are declarations of powerlessness:
    http://therationalmale.com/2012/05/07/ultimatum/

    “It is absurd to suggest the adulterous “sin” is inspired and passionate whereas married “Christian” sex is not.”

    Spoken and blindly confirmed by a demographic of people for whom sex outside of marriage MUST always be a less fulfilling experience in order to reaffirm ego-invested beliefs. You simply lack the experience necessary to make qualified estimations of sex outside of marriage.

  6. Rollo,

    So “Ultimatums are declarations of powerlessness”?

    “I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:
    That thou mayest love the Lord thy God, and that thou mayest obey his voice, and that thou mayest cleave unto him: for he is thy life, and the length of thy days: that thou mayest dwell in the land which the Lord sware unto thy fathers, to Abraham, to Isaac, and to Jacob, to give them.” -Deuteronomy 30:19-20 (KJV)

    “I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.” – John 8:24 (KJV)

    “He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.” – Mark 16:16 (KJV)

    These are just a few of the many ultimatums that God issues to his people and to us as individuals throughout the Scriptures.

    So are God’s ultimatums declarations of his “powerlessness”?

  7. Rollo,

    God is god no matter if men recognize his existence or not.

    “And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
    In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
    Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
    When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.” – II Thessalonians 1:7-10 (KJV)

    Whether you know God, or obey him, or choose to ignore his existence, one day every person will stand before him and give an account.

    But God regardless of whether we choose to listen God’s exhortations based on his love or grace, or his ultimatums based on his holiness, justice and wrath – one day we will all give an account.

  8. I understand, and I have my faith, but it still doesn’t answer the question;

    Without the existence of a mortal consciousness to recognize a god, does that god exist? That’s the real question behind a tree falling in the woods and making sound when no one is there to here it.

    It’s also why ultimatums are declarations of powerlessness.Why would an omniscient god EVER need to issue an ultimatum when that god is all things and everything proceeds from it? Why bother? If an existing thing has the power to defy an omniscient god is that god omniscient?

    We’re going to get back to the desire dynamic here just so you know.

  9. Well, Rollo, you must be comfortable having sex only when your wife desires it. What if you want sex more than she does? I’m truly curious. What should the married guy who wants sex daily do?

  10. To continue and finish the thought:
    Or a guy who wants sex every other day and his wife wants it only twice per week, or any variation where one spouse wants sex more than another? One spouse might be attracted to the other and have a different level of sex drive, this is simply true.
    From my perspective (and from personal experience) there has to be an understanding about expectations right up front. It isn’t about “negotiating attraction” and people who are married longterm do not interact sexually like people who are having casual sex. Longterm married people fall into habits and if those habits are healthy (regular sex is a very healthy and bonding habit), they will be closer. If it isn’t a habit, life can get in the way and I see direct examples everywhere.
    Just yesterday Mike and I were at a bar and I mentioned the latest thread, with the wife who refused to respond to her husband’s touch. His comment, “Why would anyone put up with that?” Why indeed.

    “You simply lack the experience necessary to make qualified estimations of sex outside of marriage.”
    I might not have any experience with casual sex, but I know enough about myself to know I wouldn’t like it at all.

  11. As a side note, after posting and reading a few blogs in the sphere over the past couple of years I see a couple of general themes that support my reasoning and perspective.
    One, a lot of male posters either imply or state outright that keeping up the “front” and that “tingle-inducing dread frame” (and whatnot) is exhausting over the long haul.
    Two, quite a few men have stated outright that they expect their LTR (some who are in relationships, some not) to only last a few years (enough to make offspring).

  12. One more thing (sorry, I always seem to start thinking further and add a post rather than completing the thought in one post), I don’t understand why having a set of standards in place (ie, these are what my needs are, this is the way it is going to be) is an exhibition of “powerlessness” in any way. Are standards in anything and everything else also an exhibition of powerlessness/supplication or is this exclusive to sexual activity and what makes that different exactly? And how far does this “powerlessness” go?
    Example: “I’m going to sport a Wal-bod (Walmart body), and I’m proud! Come and gets it!”
    …wouldn’t want to be powerless and object to that….

    Pleading is supplication. Explaining, “This is what my needs are” is the furthest thing from.

  13. Rollo,

    Your Questions:

    “Why would an omniscient god EVER need to issue an ultimatum when that god is all things and everything proceeds from it? Why bother? If an existing thing has the power to defy an omniscient god is that god omniscient?”

    You are taking me back to my early studies in Calvinism vs. Arminianism. I actually settled on a middle position where I see in Scripture a God that is “not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.”(II Peter 3:9) but also a God that chose us to be be his children based on his “foreknowledge”(I Peter 1:2) that we would one day believe on him at some future point.

    But the fact is clear in the Scriptures. God made men with free will because he wanted us to freely choose him. Yet he also gives ultimatums such as “I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:” – Deuteronomy 30:19.

    He offers us a hand of rescue, but he will not force us to take it. If we do not take it then we will perish. In the same way he called out to Israel(his wife) time and time again to take his hand and repent and come back to him and be faithful to him but she refused so he made good on his ultimatum and divorced Israel.

    God giving us an ultimatum and then telling us to choose does contradict with his omniscience. Just because God can do something, does not mean he will or has to do something. God chooses not to use all of his power many times. When Christ came in the form of a man – he restrained his power.

    “Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus:
    Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:
    But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:
    And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.” – Philippians 2:5-8 (KJV)

    God is omniscient yet he also decided to give us free wills and he also gives us ultimatums along with those free wills.

    “And the Lord God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat:
    But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.” – Genesis 2:16-17 (KJV)

    None of this is contradictory but instead follows the pattern of meekness(restrained power) that Christ demonstrated for us when he walked the earth.

    So here is the direct answer to your last question:
    “If an existing thing has the power to defy an omniscient god is that god omniscient?”
    Yes. An all powerful being can restrain his power and choose to give his creations a choice to choose to follow him, or reject him and then they get the consequences of their choice.

  14. From a Christian guy who has been lied to with the “be a good guy” bit his whole life, I think that Rollo is a bringer of more truth than a truckload of well-meaning but basically Christo-feminist pastors.

    Evangelicals, especially, have desperately sought a way to make their faith conform to modern leftism and feminism. FOTF and most evango denominations hold basic feminism as their platform, except whitewashed and without abortion and promiscuity being promoted. Nothing Churchians love more than an occasional pat on the head from the left. Good boy!

    The modern Christian church is failing, and it deserves to, because it no longer serves Christ. It instead serves its own conceits and appetites.

  15. biblicalgenderroles October 23, 2015 at 6:00 pm
    We do not have that option in our current “monogamous marriage only” culture.

    this is only a concern so long as you lend any credence to .gov issued marriage licenses … which if you ignore, cannot trigger bigamy laws.

    and remember, the US government sanctions:
    * homo ‘marriage’
    * publicly funded abortions
    * publicly funded sex re-assignment surgery
    * sex education for 1st graders
    * the destruction of Christian communities throughout Africa, the Middle East … and now Europe.

    you shall know them by their fruits … and the fruits of the US are now clearly Satanic.

  16. Bob,

    I have not written on it yet – but in an upcoming post I will share more of my position on Marriage licenses. Here is a sneak preview of my position.

    Biblically speaking marriage is no more under the authority of the government than the Church or family is.
    Biblically speaking marriage is not even under the authority of the Church.

    Biblically speaking marriage IS under the authority of the family.

    That means the father(or a woman’s oldest male relative who is responsible for her) is the one who decides whom she marries. I realize that sounds really old fashioned and archaic, but that is how marriage was for thousands of years up until the last century or so.

    Only if a woman has no male relatives in charge of her can she choose whom she marries.

    So when I said “We do not have that option in our current “monogamous marriage only” culture.” I was saying that speaking of our cultural rules for marriage, not what I believe are Biblical standards for marriage.

    I personally do not practice polygamy or have any spiritual wives, but I do know some Christian men that do(and no they are not Mormons).

  17. I dont think rollo answered your questions striaght forward. I am in my mid forties. I still want sex alot, but dont get anxious or arguably mad when the timing isnt right. All said and done i could go 2 weeks and not lose sleep over not having sex. Rollo seems to think he has come to some point in his life where HE has control over his libido. Its my thinking his libido has control in this matter.

    Think back into your teens and twenties/30s. If i didnt get or have sex or masturbate, i literally couldnt function. Now i can tell when my wife is in the mood, but that is only falling prey to when SHE wants sex. Is that alpha? I would asume being alpha is her having sex when YOU want it because she respects and submits to you as a good man.

    97% of men masturbate and the other 3% lie. Having control over when you have sex is alpha. Not having control over when you have sex isnt any better than a teenager with a willing girlfriend who is grounded from gong out, so you end up doing something else all the while thinking and wanting sex until she is ungrounded.

    I can say i am in the same boat as rollo. I can have sex, but would rather not if i sense she isnt n the mood. This eventually leaves me tempted.

  18. Jeff,

    I have been working on series on I Corinthians 7 and divorce right now for a friend who has been struggling with some false teachings about marriage. One of my goals for 2016 is to write some more articles articulating what I think the differences are between the Red Pill approach and the Biblical approach to getting women to have sex more often and with a better attitude.

    You are absolutely right in essence Rollo has adjusted his libido to his wife wanting to have sex, rather than her adjusting to when he wants to have sex. I told him even if she has sex more often because of the “anxiety” approach he recommends – making her think he will cheat on her – if she has sex it still not from a genuine desire on her part to experience the pleasure of sex with him, but rather it is to keep him from having sex with other women.

    You are absolutely right that true alpha behavior(I would argue Biblically manly behavior) is that a man can reasonably expect to have sex with his wife, or sexually touch his wife whenever the mood strikes him. Obviously we must leave some room for when a wife is genuinely ill or not able to have sex for legitimate reasons. But those times should be so rare that a man can barely remember when his wife politely and respectfully asks for a rain check.

    I would argue that a wife should not only submit – but even she should have a great attitude about it and put on her best face for her husband.

    Think about this way – if a woman worked at a corner store as office supplies salesperson even if she is having the worst day she must put her best smile and best attitude on for every customer that comes in. She has to suck it up and be a grown up. Yet when it comes to sex many women are just plain babies about it. They can put on their best fake smiles and fake enthusiasm for their job at work but somehow they can’t fake a smile and enthusiasm about sex with the man whom they have pledged themselves to as his help meet. Makes a lot of sense doesn’t it?

    I realize having sex with a woman that is not in the mood is not optimal. I myself have gone a week or two weeks because of my wife’s attitude at times. Its not that she turns me down anymore – its just that her moods are sometimes bad for days or week at time. But then I realize that I need that physical and chemical connection and masturbation only works so long as supplement to that real human physical connection that only comes from having actual sex. Otherwise you will start to get very tempted to look for physical connection elsewhere.

  19. I agree. My opinion is that rp men dont see that rollo is actually giving into his and womens hypergamy instead of telling women to grow up and be accountable for their behavior. I got creamed at dalrocks for suggesting that gaming a wife is playing to her narrative just like rollo only having sex when his wife wants it. Just because he holds off until he thinks she is desiring him doesnt make him alpha. I contend that makes him a suplicator to her libido. For him to place himself above having more sex with her or not masturbating only shows his lack of libido or wiser control over his reactions to not having more sex.

  20. Jeff,

    You are 100% right that many of the gaming methods of Red Pill actually plays to the feminist narrative but they are just approaching it from a different perspective.

    The feminists say make her feel loved and secure and do everything she wants, give her everything she wants and she will want to jump your bones whenever you want it.

    The red pill guys say make her feel insecure and she will have desire toward you and have better sex because of the anxiety of thinking another woman might want you.

    Both of these positions have the same fatal flaw – they center a woman’s sexual responsiveness on a man’s ability to manipulate his wife’s feelings in order to get sex.

    The Biblical approach throws feelings out the window as a basis for sex in marriage.

    God tells men to unconditionally lead, provide, protect, teach, discipline, have sex with, know and honor their wives REGARDLESS of their feelings – these things are their duty.

    God tells women to unconditionally reverence, submit to, obey, regard as their master, give their bodies to, keep the home of, bear the children of and show affectionate love toward their husbands REGARDLESS of their feelings – these things are their duty.

    Red Pill along with feminism completely misses this and again makes the mistake of trying manipulate a woman’s feelings to get her to “desire” to have sex.

    The truth is that sometimes women genuinely desire sex, and many times they don’t. Women kid themselves and men into thinking that it is a man’s jobs to find various ways to make a woman feel like having sex. The blue pill methods(trying to make her feel loved and secure and giving her everything she wants) and the red pill methods of gaming and creating anxiety and jealousy fall into this trap and wrong thinking that a man must make his wife feel like having sex with him. They are both WRONG.

    It is primarily the job of a woman for her to condition her OWN mind to the fact that it is her duty to be receptive to her husbands sexual advances and to put a smile on and do her very best at being the best lover as this is a huge part of her job as a wife.

    Faking it is a critical skill that must be taught to women. We have to fake things in our jobs, we have to fake things in various relationships even outside of marriage all the time. Us men have to fake it as well when we don’t feel like listening to or talking our wives at times but we have to fake interest in their conversations. Faking it is a part of any mature marriage relationship.

    And you know what many women discover? Eventually if you fake it long enough with a good attitude toward sex you might actually come to enjoy it!

  21. Had another comment, but hit the wrong button on my phone. I usually ride my stationary bike while I’m reading these blogs.

    You have helped me tremendously. Although I do struggle with not initiating when I should because I think she’s not into it or we’ve bickered that day etc. I sin in that if I don’t initiate and my desire gets too high I blame her for no reason in my own head. If I did just initiate my temptation to be irritable wouldn’t rear it’s head. I realize that, but it streams from all the years of rejection. I know she would allow me to have sex with her even if we bickered etc., but sometimes it’s difficult to initiate with a disrespectful wife.

  22. Jeff,

    I struggle with EXACTLY the same thing and so do a lot of men I know. I will think because she is moody or we bickered – “There goes my chance, I am not even going to try” and yes we can wrongly sometimes blame our wives before we have even tried. And we can’t fall into the trap of “well she reacted badly last time, so I am not going to try this time” and perhaps she did react in a sinful way. But we deal with it as it happens and we can’t hold something against them if we have not tried again.

    And yes it is very difficult for us as men to initiate with a wife who has just direspected us in the last hour or two but I think women struggle with the same thing being receptive to a man that has just been very harsh with them in last hour or two and now he wants sex. In both cases we must do what God calls us to and come together in the act of sex because God wants us to – not just because we feel like it. As men we sometimes have to overcome the hurt of our wives recent disrespect and women may have to overcome the hurt of their husbands recent harshness.

    But while I think women should initiate from time to time as show of love toward their husbands, I do think as the spiritual leaders of our homes it is our job to initiate sex most of the time even in the face of recent wrong rejections or disrespectful attitudes from our wives.

    And as I said – I am preaching this right at myself because it is something I sometimes struggle with.

  23. Jeff,

    I just thought of a funny and this does not happen very often so I must share it now before I forget.

    When it comes to sex in marriage – God’s philosophy is the same as Nike “JUST DO IT”

    Larry

  24. BGR,
    In need of more advice. Superbowl Sunday I was keeping my bro in law (wifes brother) up on the score as he was a college running back, loves football and didnt have access to the game. He asked about beyonces looks. I said fat and big butt.

    My wife read the text and flipped on me and then her bro. She is very thin, but was offended by us making comments. I didnt argue as i was literally getting in my truck when she yelled at me. She got after her bro, and he reasoned with her and she appologized to me. I dont know why he can say the same thing and she will listen to him.

    Anyway. We havent had sex i 2 weeks because of her behavior as of late. We havent so much as touched. I am starting to get a little frustrated. This is a pattern for us. Sex, couple days later bicker. Dont touch or communicate much, bicker a little. More time goes by. I am not interested in courting her back into “love” yet again. Do i ignore the fact that she doesnt even care to snuggle etc? Do i still just do it? When I go to initiate after this pattern she says a comment like, now you want to caress and be close because you want sex. She is right. This is maddening!!!!!!

  25. Jeff,

    Women often respect their fathers and their brothers more than their husbands and this because of the sin nature. Certainly God wants a woman to respect her father and brother that is not sinful. But to show them more respect than she does her husband is sin before God. The reason women do this is because like in many other areas women are often lead by their feelings with leads them to sin.

    Women, like men have instinctual(storge) for their brother and father.
    If they had decent relationship with their father and brother they also have years of emotional attachment(phileo) love also built up toward these men.
    This is why they can much more easily show respect toward their father and brother than toward their husband.

    But just because something is easier or harder does not determine whether it is right.

    Women have a problem doing things that require them to do something apart from their instinct or feelings.
    Women deeply struggle with doing something based solely on duty.

    This is why when God tells women to reverence(have a respectful fear of), submit to and give their bodies to their husbands they often struggle with these duties. “He must earn my respect, he must earn my submission, he must earn access to by body” – these are thoughts that women have every day. Some don’t even bother to fight them because they think these thoughts are justified and right. Others who submit themselves to God and his will for their lives struggle with and fight against these sinful thoughts.

    Jeff the “pattern” you describe is all too common in many marriages – do not think you are the only one who has experienced this. I have personally experienced this in my marriage and I have received emails from many men that have as well. The trick is to find a way to break the cycle.

    This requires you following that philosophy of sex that God has for us “JUST DO IT”. Even if you don’t feel like it. Even she does not seem responsive. If she consents even grudgingly then take it.

    Let me ask you this. When you say you have not had sex for 2 weeks “because of her behavior as of late” do you mean that you were holding a grudge against her even though she apologized?

    Were you giving her the silent treatment all this time even after her apology?

    Or do you think she did not really mean her apology because of how she acted after the apology by being cold and/or bickering not long after the apology?

    Sometimes we as husbands and wives can get in fights and be hurt toward one another even if an apology or apologies occur. As in many cases in life – sometimes the right actions come first(the apology) and the feelings of genuine remorse sometimes come later. Sometimes they don’t come at all because we don’t really think we were wrong.

    If the other person has apologized, even if we think their apology was not genuine we need to accept it. We need to move on. But often times what happens especially with wives is they apologize but are mad because they were made to apologize. They show this by resorting to cold and bickering behavior not long after the apology happens.

    But regardless of whatever the previous circumstances remember that God wants husbands and wives to have both a physical and emotional relationship. Now remember I don’t mean by emotional what people teach today that “men need to get in touch with their feminine sides”. What I mean is that you need to know her – which means you need to talk with her even if just to make small talk about the weather. Even when you don’t feel like it. Keep the lines of communication open as hard as it is sometimes to do(and this is something that all of us men struggle with). Trust me I can struggle with this.

    But also on the physical side if she does act like she wants to snuggle – go and snuggle next to her anyway. Unless she pushes you away or tells you no. But if she does then she is in sin against you and against God. In this case discipline may be necessary to bring her to repentance for this behavior. If you feel the need for sex than go for it! Break the cycle and do not allow yourself to fall into frustration and temptation.

    But also in all of this do NOT appease or enable her sinful behavior. Do not do as many husbands do and apologize for making their wives apologize for wrong behavior.

    Remember to recognize the cycle. She wants you to go first, you want her to go first. Break the cycle. Lead her. Now if she rebels against your attempts to break the cycle then you may have to take disciplinary action.

  26. No. I withdraw a little, but she acts just as you describe. She doesnt trulu forgive and i do not make her apologize. When she does apologize she acts the victim and wants me to go first like you said.

  27. Reverencing is not the same as fear. It means respect. I think you are devaluing a woman’s worth, and what you basically say is that a husband/wife relationship is like the parent/child relationship. It’s not like that, and a defenseless woman shouldn’t have to live in fear of anyone, especially not her husband. Spouses are supposed to love one another, not to invoke fear.

    Why is it that women have to endlessly and infinitely give their husband’s respect when the husband doesn’t have to respect her as much? That’s not fair. I’ve been married for 45 beautiful years to my husband, and yes I did obey him don’t think that I didn’t, but I wasn’t scared of him. Why should I have been? He’s my husband, not my tormentor. My husband always was the head, and still is of course, and he did a wonderful job of it. I would never EVER leave my darling husband. He knows what it means to truly be head. And for that I love and respect him so much. I ravish him too, and with your stance on sexuality, I agree with most things you said about that, and I’ve always had pretty much the same view on it as does my husband as we never had that dumb prudish view on sex. But I don’t agree with many things you say about how marriages should supposedly work, and for you to say that a husband doing less for his wife would be better for the marriage is demeaning at best. What you really mean is that it’s better for the man regardless of how the woman may feel. She’s important too you know, and remember she’s a wife not a daughter. God Bless

  28. @Anne The word for reverence in the Bible(Ephesians 5:33) has the idea a fearful respect, deference, and reverential obedience( http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/phobeo.html ), and God commands wives to reverence their husbands unconditionally and with absolution in the cited verse, so BGR is simply telling the truth and not devaluing women at all in what he said. As to why wives have to infinitely and endless respect their husbands even when they aren’t respectful, its because God said so. Plain and simple, and because if you do reverence your husband unconditionally and with absolution, along with submitting to him in the very same way, short of inability, in everything unsinful, and everything else God commands wives do by their husbands, then God can use your/their Godly conduct to convict your/their husband of their sin that they may turn away from it,(1 Peter 3:1-6) should indeed they be sinning against God and you. And what BGR said about marriage, and a husband doing less for his wife if she is being lazy and refusing to perform the very duties by him that God commands of her, is simple discipline because the man’s wife isn’t entitled to his help with her duties. He can give her help, but if he decided not to as punishment for laziness on her part(note, I said laziness, not sickness or some kind of inability, as did BGR) then he can since God doesn’t require him to do those things. A husband is required by God to give his wife shelter(Genesis 2), food, clothing, regular sexual relations(Exodus 21:10-11), protection, even to the point of laying down his life for her if needed, spiritual and Scriptural guidance and leadership, to the point of discipline if needed to correct sinful behavior and rebellion against God and him(Ephesians 5:25-27, Revelation 3:19), love(in the sense of duty and commitment, not necessarily feelings or emotions/Ephesians 5:33), and honor, as unto the weaker vessel(1 Peter 3:7, which basically means to show value of his wife in this sense of the Greek word). He is not required to help her do things, like her marital duties by him, so if he chose not to as punishment of laziness or other sinful behavior, a husband could. It is not demeaning to the marriage in the least. She is a wife, and a wife, just like a daughter, needs to be taught and lead by her husband as necessary.

  29. @Anne,

    I understand your reservations about the word “fear”. I think that the word “fear” here has a much less intense quality than we usually assign it. It’s not a fear that our husbands will cause us physical harm, torment, or even death. It’s more an understanding that there will be consequences if we don’t do our duty. (And again, not consequences like “I’m going to beat the s*** out of you” or “I’m going to starve you.”) And to an extent, husbands also understand that there may be justified consequences to their actions (I.e. a divorce) if they don’t provide for or protect their wives or if deny them sex or beat them. They may also understand that if they don’t properly honor a good and submissive wife, then the wife will only provide sex, obedience, and respect out of a sense of duty and reverence for their position, not their person. The difference is that wives can’t take anything material away from their husbands (except in a justified, biblical divorce) whereas husbands can. Furthermore, as Tyler said, wives must be submissive even when their husbands sin against them.

    @Tyler,

    To speak plainly, thinking of a husband as a father figure has disgusting, sickening, nauseating, stomach-churning, vomit-inducing, incestuous undertones. Really, the sex part makes a world of difference mentally and emotionally. There are also differences between what a husband needs to teach his wife and what a father needs to teach his daughter because the marital relationship is one between adults while the paternal-filial relationship is one between an adult and a child. Because the child is much more ignorant than the woman, the child has much more to learn and little ability to teach skills to parents, while a wife might have certain skills that she can teach her husband if he allows it. Finally, the husband’s authority over the wife is permanent. The father’s is subverted when the daughter marries. I understand the similarities, but the differences are big enough that I can see why people don’t think of it that way. (And again, to be blunt, the incestuous implications play a big role in that reluctance.)

  30. @Alex I never said anything about a husband’s relationship with his wife is just like that of a daughter, just that there are time he may have to teach and lead his wife, just like he has to teach and lead his daughter. I didn’t say it was the same, and I also did not say that the father’s authority was permanent, just that he is to lead and protect his family, wife and kids alike, and rebuke sin in them in effort to lead them to repentance. Yes, his authority over his wife is permanent, while to his daughter it reverts to her husband when she gets married. What I was talking about is when they kids, growing up, and until the son leaves and marries, or his daughter does marries.

  31. Tyler, I apologize.
    I got caught up in explaining why I thought that the father/daughter relationship was different from the husband/wife relationship and also why women didn’t want to compare the two. I realize that it seemed as though I was attributing positions to you that you didn’t hold. I’m sorry for that.

  32. @ Anne

    Spouses are supposed to love one another, not to invoke fear.

    Ephesians 5:33 However, let each one of you love his wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband.

    The word translated “respects” is phobatai from the stem phobos which is translated as “fear” almost 90 times in the KJV. Paul makes the argument that wives are to act toward their husbands as the church is commanded to act toward Christ. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom and a wife’s fear of her lord (1 Pe 3:6) is the beginning of her wifely wisdom.

    I understand that most don’t like what the Bible teaches on this, but it teaches what it teaches and no amount of word contortions will change what is clearly laid down in scripture. We either submit our will to the Word or submit the Word to our own wisdom. I personally think the later is a frightening proposition, but then I fear the LORD.

  33. I think that a big problem is that fear is currently seen as being irreconcilable with trust. But if we compare our fear of God’s power to other relationships between an authority and a subordinate, we realize that they’re not irreconcilable concepts. Is there any being in the universe whom we can trust more than God? I think not!

  34. I don’t think that the fear that we have for God is the same as the respect wives should have for their husbands. The dichotomy in Matthew 10 couldn’t be clearer (particularly starting in verse 26, but the whole chapter gives good context). We are to fear God because He has the power to cast us into Hell or to save us for Heaven. Husbands don’t, nor were they designed to have, the same power and responsibility.

    The Bible is clear on the fear of the Lord being the beginning of wisdom. Less commonly found (as in, never), is the verse stating that the fear of the Husband is the beginning of wifely wisdom. I’m all for wives respecting their husbands…as in unconditional respect….as in even if he’s being a jerk and you think he’s wrong. But I think we stand to lose a lot of Christian reputation and the possibility of being a good witness to both genders if we insist on clinging to the word ‘fear’ when what we really mean is ‘respect’. Like it or not, appropriate or inappropriate, the word ‘fear’ has a negative connotation that is unlikely to be overcome in this generation.

    A tad bit of personal stuff to finish off. Based on parts of my upbringing, I have a severe fear of being around men who are out-of-control angry. A few times early on in our relationship, my boyfriend/husband lost his temper and yelled at me (he always apologized and is doing much better…can’t honestly remember the last time it happened). He could make the case much better than I can that having one’s wife fear them isn’t as fun as it sounds. However, he absolutely expects and demands respect, and he isn’t afraid to confront me when he feels like I’m not showing it.

  35. Alex,

    Your Statement:

    “@Tyler,

    To speak plainly, thinking of a husband as a father figure has disgusting, sickening, nauseating, stomach-churning, vomit-inducing, incestuous undertones. Really, the sex part makes a world of difference mentally and emotionally. There are also differences between what a husband needs to teach his wife and what a father needs to teach his daughter because the marital relationship is one between adults while the paternal-filial relationship is one between an adult and a child. Because the child is much more ignorant than the woman, the child has much more to learn and little ability to teach skills to parents, while a wife might have certain skills that she can teach her husband if he allows it. Finally, the husband’s authority over the wife is permanent. The father’s is subverted when the daughter marries. I understand the similarities, but the differences are big enough that I can see why people don’t think of it that way. (And again, to be blunt, the incestuous implications play a big role in that reluctance.)”

    I realize you and Tyler worked it out and by no means do I mean to stir the pot here. I just wanted to offer my take on this. I mentioned this before and it has been some time. I think the last conversation about this was was between me and AnnaMS where we strongly disagreeded on this subject.

    THE FATHER/DAUGHTER, HUSBAND/WIFE and MASTER/SERVANT RELATIONSHIPS – DISTINCT YET SIMILAR

    First let me start by saying that I believe the father/daughter relationship, husband/wife relationship and master/servant relationship are three distinct types of relationships. None of these relationships are exactly like the other. However It is absolutely Biblicaly correct to state that they bear some similarities to one another and the Bible actually compares them to each other.

    In Numbers 30:3-16 we see the Bible comparing the father/daughter relationship to the husband/wife relationship in the sense that a father may override any decisions or vows his daughter has made and a husband may override any decisions or vows his wife has made. In the same way that the father is seen as a teaching figure to his son’s and daughters so too in the New Testament we see that the husband is the spiritual teacher of his wife in I Corinthians 4:35. Children are told to honor their father and their mother – but the Bible goes a step further and tells women to “reverence” and the word as others have pointed out here is literally “fear” their husbands. Now yes this is not a “scary monster fear” but more of a respectful awe that women are to have toward their husbands(something that is woefully lacking in western culture by most women – including Christian women). Again let that sink in for the ladies – God tells you to honor your fathers(which many women easily do) but he tells you to go a step further and reverence your husbands.

    The Bible also compares the husband/wife relationship to a master/servant relationship when Peter exhorts women to follow Sarah’s example who “obeyed Abraham, calling him lord”(I Peter 3:6). Again does that mean that the husband/wife relationship is exactly like a master/servant relationship? No. But the Bible tells us that it bears some similarity to a master/servant relationship.

    I don’t disagree with you that a wife may have some areas where she can give helpful and wise advice to her husband. The Bible tells us of the vitreous wife that she “openeth her mouth with wisdom”(Proverbs 31:26) so in no way does the Bible forbid a wife from offering her husband advise anymore than it forbids one of a King’s subjects from offering him advise.

    DO WE READ TOO MUCH INTO ADULTHOOD?

    On the issue of adulthood – I think we in modern western society put far too much stock in the term “adult”. When we as human beings reach adulthood that simply means we have reached physical and mental maturity – we have completed puberty which is the journey from childhood to adulthood. But we all must acknowledge that the adult nature of a man in terms of physical attributes, emotional attributes, and mental attributes is very different than that of the adult nature of a woman. Now in no way am I saying adult women can not be as smart as men. I have said it many times on this site and fully acknowledge the fact that there are more average intelligence women than men and there are even some high intelligence and even genius level women. Men have a much broader spectrum of intelligence with there being more less than average intelligence men and more above average and genius level men than women.

    My point is though that regardless of intelligence – men typically have a different nature than women. This nature equips most men(regardless of their intelligence) to often be better leaders than women because of their “duty” driven natures where as women have more “feeling” driven natures. Men typically are also bigger risk takers which makes them excel in science, business and military en devours.

    AND FINALLY THE POINT I AM TRYING TO MAKE…

    So now is here the point I took forever to make – LOL. Yes the father/daughter relationship is different than the husband/wife relationship, however it is not as different as our western society tries to make. Alex I know that when you say one of the big differences is that a husband and wife are both adults you don’t mean partners – but that is exactly the way our world sees it. Because a husband and wife are both adults and in the world’s view every adult regardless of gender or any other consideration should have complete equal rights therefore to the secular world marriage must be a partnership between two adults. The Bible however does not support the idea of equal rights for adults and it makes distinctions between the rights of an adult man and the rights of an adult woman.

    In Biblical terms if a daughter still lives in her fathers house, whether she is 12 or 22 she must submit to her father’s will in EVERY way a wife would submit to her husband’s will except for ONE area and that is the area of sex. God does not grant father this authority or power over his daughter and she would be right to refuse him in this area as it would be sinful incest.

    Some say – oh that was just Old Testament law given to Israel and then they will throw out some other parts of Moses Law to throw us off. But was this(regulations about a father and daughter and husband and wife) temporary or part of the lasting moral marriage family law of God?

    While it is true that God gave civil, sacrificial, priestly, cleanliness and dietary laws specifically for Israel as a theocracy we know that Moses law also contained moral law which carries into the New Testament. We read in the New Testament that in Christ the sacrificial laws, priestly laws, cleanliness laws and dietary laws are canceled and we also understand that theocracy of Israel was brought to an end and with it the civil laws of Israel. But we must not forget that moral law of Moses is upheld by Christ and his Apostles.

    This is why I maintain that while the father/daughter and husband/wife relationships are two distinct relationships in God’s design – they are not as radically different as we are lead today to believe by many modern Christian scholars.

  36. AnnaMS,

    Your Statement:

    “I don’t think that the fear that we have for God is the same as the respect wives should have for their husbands.”

    I have said it on this site many times that husbands are not God. However God tells women to submit unto their husbands “as unto the Lord”(Ephesians 5:22). Literally that verse tells women “submit to your husband as you would submit to God”. Now obviously we know the Bible also tells us that we are to obey God rather than man and God is always a higher authority than man so if a husband tells his wife to do something that is clearly sinful she may and should rightly refuse. But absent that scenario, she is to submit to her husband as she would submit to God. While we are commanded to follow our Kings, governors and even our Church leaders or parents – in no other human relationship are we told to submit to someone “as unto the Lord” but in the marriage relationship between a husband and wife. My point is that while the submission of a wife to her husband is not identical to her submission to God because he is her higher authority – her submission to her husband is more similar to her relationship to God than any other human relationship.

    Now we can take this same concept and apply it to this concept of wife’s fearing their husbands and wife’s fearing God. It is an incorrect translation to translate the Greek word “Phobeo” as many translations have done. The KJV’s rendering of “reverance” comes much closer the literal definition of this Greek word. How can a word be translated as “fear” more than 62 times in the Bible and another 28 times as “afraid” and yet in this one and only instance some have chosen to translate it as “respect”? Today when we think of respect we far to often think of it in terms of peers having respect for another in various ways. The Bible’s use of “Phobeo” here is not some action that takes place between peers – but rather is is something much more powerful than that.

    The correct understanding that the Bible commands women to “Phobeo” their husbands is something that clashes with our “casual culture”. Wives are to show their husbands the same reverence as if they came into the presence of the King of their nation. How would we act if we came into a King’s thrown room? Would we act casual and say “whats up king? Yo!” Or would we should a certain reverent awe in his presence? I think if we are honest we all know the answer to that question. But women showing their husbands this kind of reverent fear flies in the face of our casual friendship marriage model. The husband/wife relationship is no longer seen a patriarchal relationship but rather a relationship of “two buds just hanging out”.

    Your Statement:

    “But I think we stand to lose a lot of Christian reputation and the possibility of being a good witness to both genders if we insist on clinging to the word ‘fear’ when what we really mean is ‘respect’. Like it or not, appropriate or inappropriate, the word ‘fear’ has a negative connotation that is unlikely to be overcome in this generation.”

    AnnaMS – with all due respect we cannot water down the Word of God because our culture does not like what the Bible says. The most literal rendering of what God commands of women is for them to “fear” or “reverence” their husbands. While respect is certainly an aspect of reverence and fear – it does not fully capture the meaning. Do you know what other word has a very negative connotation today? The word “submit”. Yet women are told to submit to their husbands multiple times throughout the Scriptures and we cannot back away from that it either.

    Many Churches today have done exactly what you have recommend AnnaMS and yes they have seen great growth in their numbers as result. But are these churches filled with spirit-filled Christians or just immature Christians and Christians in name only? I would argue latter is the case. We are raising a generation of Christians today that know little of what God actually says about what it means to be a man and a woman and what marriage is supposed to look like. The Apostle tells us not to water down the Bible and he actually foretells of future times when people would gather around themselves teachers to tell them what their itching ears want to hear.

    “2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.
    3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;”

    II Timothy 4:2-3 (KJV)

  37. @BGR,

    Thanks for the detailed response. I don’t see any points where we disagree. I think that some women respond negatively to the father/daughter comparison because it has incestuous overtones that you clearly don’t intend while others feel infantilized by it. But I see that you’re saying that the husband’s authority over his wife is similar to a father’s authority over his daughter in that both demand total submission (with the exception of the sexual area), not that a husband should treat his wife like a literal child. A husband will generally be able to reproach his wife in a way that wouldn’t be effective with a child because of the child’s ignorance and immaturity. (I know that you’ve said that you use a completely different set of disciplinary practices for your teens than for your prepubescent kids, and I think that you’d say that the principle is the same here.)

    Plus, I think that the husband/wife relationship has the potential to be equal in one way that the father/daughter relationship probably cannot be. A husband and wife can make equitable contributions to the marriage and mutually sacrifice to one another on a similar level. The husband provides for his wife and children by working, but the wife gives back by taking care of the home, cooking, and raising their children. The husband and the wife can each sacrifice their own desires to meet each other’s emotional and sexual needs. (Obviously, a sexual sacrifice would be having sex with your spouse when you’re not in the mood. An emotional sacrifice might be taking time away from relaxation or a hobby when your spouse really needs to talk or just receive some kind of comfort.) The wife may do the bulk of the child-raising, but the husband, when necessary, ensures that the children give her proper respect as their mother and obey the rules. He also takes time to give them spiritual and practical guidance. A daughter spends so much of her time with her father (and mother, for that matter) as a totally dependent child who can’t possibly repay all of the unconditional love, provisioning, and nurturing that her parents provided for her when she could only repay them with a child’s love, obedience (which, let’s face it, isn’t perfect in most children), and assistance where possible. Then, while a daughter should certainly continue to honor her father after she marries, her primary duty is to her husband after that. She can still give to her father, but it’s not a debt that can ever truly be repaid.

    So, basically, in a way, it seems that we both agree that a wife is actually called to do more for her husband. I’d also say that she’s capable of doing more for him than she was for her father.

    On a side note, by a woman teaching her husband, I meant that she might have picked up certain skills during her childhood and education or just excel in certain areas that he doesn’t as much and that she can teach him that skill if he wants to cultivate it. For example, my husband and I have shared a couple hobbies with one another. He’s also helped me improve my sense of direction while I’ve helped him increase his reading speed. It’s not about a woman taking the lead or even female intelligence vs. male intelligence. It’s more about individual skills that people pick up during the course of their lives.

  38. BGR, I am not advocating for watering down Scripture. I honestly do not believe that the Bible teaches for wives to be afraid of their husbands (which is what the majority of people will imagine if told that wives should fear their husbands) so using such terminology is going to give a false impression of Christianity that is likely to turn people off to the truth of the Gospel. Another example of this is the idea of the ‘strong, confident woman’. That phrase has a very feminist, un-submissive, and non-feminine connotation to it. So even though there is no doubt in my mind that the Proverbs 31 woman was in fact confident and strong, I don’t describe myself that way because it could very easily give others the wrong impression of both me and what I think a Christian woman should be like. But you are right that it is absolutely true that there are parts of Scripture that are difficult for some people and we should not seek to water those down (although I do believe that we can hold our peace about some minor theological differences to focus on the bigger picture of the Gospel with our unsaved friends).

    Fear is not a concept that floats around by itself. It is always attached to something. Fear for no reason quickly becomes paranoia which is classified as a mental illness. If someone holds a gun to my head, I fear that they may kill me. If a police officer pulls me over, I fear that I may get a ticket. People may have fear for bad reasons (like my fear of spiders), but there is always a reason. So I have to ask, what are wives fearing about their husbands? I know that you do not advocate for wives to walk around in fear that their husbands will beat them, cheat on them, or leave them and I’m not going to strawman you here, I just honestly don’t understand exactly what we are to be fearing in them.

    That’s why I think respect is a better word. I should have unconditional respect for my husband because of the position he occupies in my life. This position is unlike anyone else’s to me. The respect I show for my neighbor, or people in general, is far from the respect I show my husband. So I am not using the word ‘respect’ to try to sneak an egalitarian approach into marriage (although I have seen my sister do just that, so I know that it can happen as you said). I show deference to his opinions and desires (aka it doesn’t matter if I am pleasing my neighbor as long as I am pleasing my husband without sin), I consider myself obligated to submit to him whereas I am just obligated to treat my neighbor kindly according to Scriptural commands, etc. It is true that I am comfortable around him and I don’t freak out if he sees me with bed head, without make-up, or more recently…in labor! But he wants it that way. If I were to tiptoe around the house with a ‘yes, your majesty’ attitude the way that I might with a king, he wouldn’t want that at all. That level of awkward unfamiliarity would almost definitely have a negative effect on our sexual relationship as well (although in all fairness, I wouldn’t be having sex with the king either, so that might be a natural result of such a relationship). I do sometimes walk into the room and ask “what’s up?” He doesn’t mind. I’m honestly trying to think of a more formal way to phrase that like I might for a king, but they’re all making him crack up, so I’m guessing i’m on the wrong trail.

    I think that husbands and wives should be comfortable around each other and familiar with each other. I don’t see how this can’t be compatible with unconditional respect, submission, etc.

  39. Sorry for the double comment, but I was just wondering if we might not be missing the spirit of the law for the letter of the law in this instance with the whole ‘king’ comparison. I think that using the word ‘king’ invokes the idea of unconditional respect, submission unless sin (people didn’t just obey the king if they were pleased with what he was doing), and the positional authority that the husband occupies. In that sense, the comparison is very accurate and it presents a very real problem for those who try to ague that the Bible supports egalitarian marriage.

    However, trying to match husband and king in every sense is completely missing the point. I would never dream of walking seductively up to a king, pulling his shirt off, and engaging in some steamy activity the way I do my husband. I wouldn’t sit down with a king and discuss the day-to-day financial issues, parenting decisions, and family logistics. I wouldn’t playfully poke a king at 2:00 AM and tell him to stop snoring. On the flip-side, there are plenty of things that I would have to do for a king that I don’t with my husband (such as asking permission in advance to be in the same room as him).

    This blog does a very good job of encouraging woman to be more sexually active in their marriages. To initiate more, wear more lingerie, act more seductively, be more like a girlfriend, etc (Snapper also had a fabulous article on his blog about this). I am all for that…..ALL FOR THAT…it is so much fun in a marriage and works wonders and I honestly feel sorry for men who don’t have that in their marriage and for women who think that such behavior is sin. But, you risk losing all of that if you take the king analogy too far.

  40. @ annaMS

    A wife should not be expected to be treated as queen if she doesn’t treat her husband as a king. That treatment would not exclude reverence and fear.

    BTW- You referenced Proverbs 31, you should know that Proverbs 31 is advice from a mother to a king about how to find a worthy queen.

  41. Jonadab, you are absolutely correct that this works both ways. You are incorrect if you think I want the queen treatment. Some people may say their spouse treats them like a king/queen to imply that they are treated with a lot of respect or love (depending on the gender, obviously). That’s all and good, but if we’re talking about how one would literally treat a queen, than I’ll pass. I don’t want to be treated like a queen…I want to be treated like a wife. I want my husband to playfully swat my butt, laugh with me at inside jokes, and discuss day-to-day issues, etc. None of which he would do with a queen. It would seem to me that women who have a ‘queen complex’ are not far away from those with a ‘princess complex’. Very demanding, entitled, and prideful. I wouldn’t recommend a man marry a woman like that, but that decision is up to them. Of course, being a wife does imply that a woman should receive special treatment in some ways just like a man who is a husband should (different treatment obviously). As my husband’s wife, he is more concerned for my comfort, safety, spiritual growth, etc. than he is for other people’s (all else being equal). I’m a higher priority to him. As I mentioned above, a wife should also treat her husband in ways that she will not treat anyone else.

    You are also correct that good kings will want good queens, good husbands will want good wives, etc. What I’m missing is the point you’re trying to make with it.

  42. @AnnaMS, I just had to say, you have very good arguments and you express them very well. There’s nothing like radical christianity to turn you off the religion entirely. I’m always very encouraged by your posts/responses, and you offer more practical solutions to the issue of gender roles. Perhaps because your perspective is from that of a woman and one who understands the struggles regarding trying to be submissive without feeling like you’re being oppressed.

    You should start your own blog. I’ll be an avid subscriber.

  43. That’s so sweet of you, Taylor! However, I feel like I don’t really have enough to say worth justifying having a blog. While I don’t agree with everything that Dragonfly/Stephanie says, her blog is very good and I’d advise checking it out if you haven’t yet. She’s in the middle of a Proverbs 31 series.

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