Are some wives tempting their husbands to lust?

Kristen Clark, a writer for the website CovenantEyes.com, asserts that a wife showing her husband a magazine with a half-naked woman’s body on it was an example of a wife causing her husband to lust. Most likely by “half naked” she probably means the woman was wearing a bikini or a bra and panties.

In her article entitled ““When Wives Unknowingly Tempt Their Husbands Toward Lust“ Kristen Clark writes:

“I was standing in line at my local grocery store when an obnoxious magazine caught my eye. I’m used to seeing half-naked women on the cover of tabloids, but this image seemed even too edgy for a tabloid.

A small wave of anger rushed over me as I thought of the innocent children and husbands who were being exposed to this, as I call it, “tabloid porn.” As I tried to refocus my thinking on something more positive, a middle aged couple got in line behind me.

I watched in curiosity as the wife reached over and selected that magazine off the rack. I watched even more curiously to see what she would do with it. To my shock, the wife held that magazine cover up to her husband’s face and said, “Wow, wish I had a body like that!”

Her husband chuckled as he happily perused the cover until she removed it.

I quickly glanced forward, realizing I had been staring. I tried to wrap my head around what I just saw. “Why would a wife want to intentionally show her husband a partially naked woman?” “Why would a wife want to help her husband peruse another woman?

As I thought about that puzzling scene over the next few days, I began to wonder…maybe that wife didn’t understand the value of sexual purity in her marriage. Or maybe that wife was clueless about lust and temptation. Or maybe she wanted to prove her “security” by appearing non-jealous. I don’t know.”

Read the full article here.

Answering Kristen’s questions

Kristen’s first question:

“Why would a wife want to intentionally show her husband a partially naked woman?”

The answer to Kristen’s first question:

Because the wife accepts and embraces the fact that God designed her husband to appreciate the female form and not just HER form and her from alone.

The wife in that grocery line most likely understood the difference between lust and sexual arousal far better than Kristen Clark and many Christians today understand it.

Many Christians point to Matthew 5 in defining lust:

“Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.” – Matthew 5:27-28 (KJV)

Then they go on to say “Lust is sexual arousal or sexual fantasy about someone you are not married to”.

Did you see that definition of lust in that passage? No you did not.

So how about we let the Bible define what lust is instead of letting our culture and churches define what lust is:

“What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.” – Romans 7:7 (KJV)

This wife in that checkout line understood there is no sin in her husband appreciating or even being aroused sexually by the form of another’s woman’s body. She understood that lust is covetousness and that her husband was not going to covet this woman by thinking of how he could find her and sexually possess her outside of marriage.

So rather than condemning this woman as Kristen Clark as has done, we as believers should be applauding this woman for her actions. Instead of scolding her husband for his visual nature and appreciation of the female form – she shows him that God’s creation of his visual nature and attraction to the female form is GOOD.

Kristen’s Second Question:

“Why would a wife want to help her husband peruse another woman?”

The answer to Kristen’s second question:

I will answer her question with another question of my own and then answer it for her.

Why would a woman not just let her husband peruse another woman, but also give her to him as another wife?

“Then Leah said, “God has rewarded me for giving my servant to my husband.” So she named him Issachar.” – Genesis 30:18 (KJV)

In Genesis chapters 29 & 30 we that Leah is very jealous of her husband’s affections as he prefers Rachel to her. But eventually Leah overcomes her jealousy of her husband to the point that she gives him her servant Zilpah so that she can bare him more sons.

So the answer to my expanded version of Kristen’s second question is – This wife was putting her husband’s needs ahead of her own.

It is interesting how in many churches we will hear about how Sarah gave her servant Hagar to Abraham and how that ended so badly – yet we hear nothing of how God blessed Leah for giving Zilpah to Jacob.

The fact is these were two very different situations. In the one God told Sarah she would give Abraham a son and an heir.  She did not believe God and instead sought to get him an heir through another means.  Now there would have been nothing wrong with Abraham marrying another woman and he in fact married several more women later in life.

The problem was in Sarah trying to get him his heir through this method when God had said the heir would come through her.

With all due respect to Kristen Clark – it is she and so many Christians like her today that are in fact “clueless about lust and temptation”.  The Bible is clear what lust is as I have previously pointed out and what Kristen describes in that checkout line was NOT a wife tempting her husband to lust.  It was a wife loving and fully embracing her husband’s God given visual nature and appreciation for a variety of beautiful women.

Here is a list of things Kristen does to keep her husband from enjoying the form of any other woman but her:

“I sort the mail and throw away the immodest/sensual ads so he doesn’t have to see them.

I don’t ask my husband to watch movies with me that have immodest women in them (i.e. most chick flicks).

I intentionally leave all magazines, books, etc. out of my home that have immodest/sensual images or ads in them.

If I know a certain restaurant has immodest waitresses, I don’t suggest eating there.

I don’t ever take my husband into a lingerie store. I’ve seen many wives do this, and from what I hear, it’s not helpful for the men.”

I know where Kristen is coming from and I understand that her actions might not be coming from a place of trying to deny her husband any pleasure that God has given him to enjoy.  She simply has been wrongly taught that the Bible forbids her husband from enjoying the view of any other woman’s body other than her own.  So she must take every step possible to make sure he is never sexually aroused by the form of any other woman real or imagined.

She has been taught that when a man has sexual imaginations about a woman he is not married to (whether that his girlfriend, fiancé or some other woman after he is married) that these are by definition “impure thoughts” and thus her constant references to purity in marriage.

But the fact is that a man enjoying the sight of a woman’s form whether he is married to her or not IS PURE. It is pure and holy because that is how God designed him to be.

It is only when he allows those pure thoughts about the female form or even sex itself to turn into covetous thoughts of ways to possess a woman outside of marriage that his thoughts become impure and sinful.

But while Kristen and many other Christian may sincerely practice these things with good intentions toward God and their husbands – they are in fact sincerely WRONG.

How some wives DO tempt their husbands to lust

Up to this point we have shown why Kristen’s story does not show a wife tempting her husband to lust, but rather shows a wife honoring and show acceptance of her husband’s appreciation and desire to view the female form.

One of the biggest problems with all this focus on men not looking at images of women or real women is that it takes our eyes off the REAL dangers of men being tempted by their wives to lust.

Here are ways a wife can actually cause her husband to lust:

  1. When she sexually denies him – the more a man is denied by his wife sexually the more tempted he will be to actually lust (have covetous thoughts about getting women to meet his sexual needs outside of marriage).
  2. Even if she does not directly sexually deny him – if she does not sexually fulfill him he may be tempted to lust. Things like not letting him see her naked, refusing to wear lingerie or refusing to perform certain acts that the Bible allows (like oral sex or having sex in different positions) may tempt him to lust.

These are the real dangers where wives can have a direct impact in tempting their husbands to lust. These are where we should be focusing the battle against lust.

“Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband. Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.

The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.  Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.” – I Corinthians 7:2-5 (KJV)

Christian wives – you want to help your husband to not be tempted to lust? Then stop worrying about the woman on the magazine cover in the supermarket aisle and focus on the woman who should be giving her body fully and freely to her husband (that’s you!).

 

52 thoughts on “Are some wives tempting their husbands to lust?

  1. The extent of anger from a woman on her husband looking at another woman varies depending on how insecure she feels that day. If the author of the article goes through that much trouble she must not keep herself well or do well enough for her husband that fear has overtaken her. Case in point, my wife is no prude, and is, in fact, a personal trainer, so there are qualms over magazines or web sites with all manner of hot, spandex clad bodies, which she often asks me about. Today, however, she is bent out of shape because of a 3D rendered image of a woman in a nightie, no more offensive than what you would find in a Sears catalog, and definitely less offensive than what you would see in the window of the local Fredrick’s of Hollywood. It was posted by someone else on their Facebook page and was updated on my timeline. The person on whose Facebook it resides makes clothing for 3D models, so neither the clothing nor the model modelling it was real. That doesn’t matter today, though, as I can only assume she is feeling insecure about herself after the binge of holiday eating, despite the fact that she still looks great. So, today, I sit in solitude while she ignores me over a bunch of pixels on a screen.

    Tomorrow she will probably show me some smoking hot 22 year old on the cover of a magazine and ask me what I think of her abs.

  2. Even though my wife was denying me sex, she had no problem getting out of the shower and coming into the bedroom naked before me. In other words, “You may look, but don’t touch!” If that doesn’t provoke a husband to seek satisfaction lusting after other women, I don’t know what does! Some may say that I should have told her to not be naked before me. When it gets to that point, then we can no longer live together.

    Right now she is in Colombia and I am in Mexico. I cannot allow her to come back to live with me until she repents of the rebellion and the resulting sexual denial. Please pray for our marriage!

  3. Missionary,

    I feel for you. Imagine if the tables were reversed and you purchased your wife a massive diamond ring but told her ‘look, but you cannot wear it’. She would be livid! Praying for you and your marriage.

  4. “It is interesting how in many churches we will hear about how Sarah gave her servant Hagar to Abraham and how that ended so badly – yet we hear nothing of how God blessed Leah for giving Zilpah to Jacob.”

    I wouldn’t necessarily say that God “blessed” Leah for giving Zilpah to Jacob — I mean look at how that family turned out. Pretty dysfunctional if you ask me. I think Jacob’s family is a huge neon sign advertising why there should only be ONE husband & ONE wife per family (& of course why parents shouldn’t so blatantly favor one kid over the other…) God’s plan for redemption can’t be stopped by His servants sinning, so good still came from all the mess & mistakes.

    In any case. I think Kristen is being a little too careful when it comes to “helping” her husband to not “lust” after other women – but if her husband is okay with that, then there shouldn’t be an issue. I am not fussed if my husband looks at other women, because I am secure in the knowledge that he loves me & only wants me. & the same goes for him when it comes to me admiring another man. So, I wonder if Kristen keeps her eyes away from half-naked males on the cover of magazines? They’re surely in the chick flicks she watches, in any case. But, you may have a different view on women looking at other men the way you say men can look/appreciate other women?

  5. I doubt we will agree here, but I want to make sure I’m understanding your position correctly (I hate strawmen). You mentioned Kristin filtering through the mail. Should she not do that? If not, where does that stop? Should she leave it on the counter for 24 hours where he may or may not come upon it? Should she specifically save it for her husband and mention it to him? Subscribe to magazines like Victoria’s Secret just for him?

    I think your point about women channeling their paranoia into actively having good sex with their husbands is spot on. It’s easier in general not to worry when we’re actually doing something instead of passively wondering what’s going through their heads. Not to mention the Biblical requirements of course.

  6. Anna,

    I realize the family dynamics of Jacobs family(having four wives) conflicts with your modern notions of marriage and love but the Scriptures are clear that God did in fact bless her by opening her womb again and giving her another son AFTER she gave Zilpah to Jacob:

    “God listened to Leah, and she became pregnant and bore Jacob a fifth son. Then Leah said, “God has rewarded me for giving my servant to my husband.” So she named him Issachar.” – Genesis 30:17-18 (NIV)

    Jacobs family was not in fact “a huge neon sign advertising why there should only be ONE husband & ONE wife per family” and he probably would not have had the twelve sons who would be the ancestors of the twelve tribes of Israel whose names are inscribed on the foundation of the heavenly Jerusalem had he not had more than one wife.

  7. “I think your point about women channeling their paranoia into actively having good sex with their husbands is spot on. It’s easier in general not to worry when we’re actually doing something instead of passively wondering what’s going through their heads. Not to mention the Biblical requirements of course.”

    I totally agree with this Anna!

    BGR, it’s also confusing to me where the line could be drawn for each man in his own mind. I don’t feel threatened by magazines and models, I used to get VS magazine without a problem. I do think maybe for some men who are being deprived constantly of sex, or of getting to see their wives naked, those things WOULD be tempting them to lust like you say. Maybe the way men are raised now as well (hyper-sexual sensitivity?), doesn’t contribute to solving this problem.

    Her going through the mail, censoring everything he does, and writing about it from a Christian standpoint sounds controlling to me, and like she comes from a point of view that women are superior in self-control and spirituality. This is how Christian women are raised though, that they have to constantly censor their husbands’ thoughts, unless they have moms who teach them otherwise. I was like this when my husband and I started dating, but my mom helped me realize that was crazy behavior to be so controlling.

    Honestly, with a good sex life, fulfilling, passionate sex, a husband will hardly even notice those temptations at the supermarket. It really does help to just be a good wife, meet his needs, and be a lover of your husband.

  8. SnapperTrx,

    Your Statement:

    “If the author of the article goes through that much trouble she must not keep herself well or do well enough for her husband that fear has overtaken her.”

    The truth is that some Christian women do this out of insecurity and having the backing of Churches telling them that they are accountable to make sure they do this for their husbands only bolsters their position. Other women do not do this out of any insecurity at all – but rather they are taught that their husband’s natural desire to look at and take pleasure from viewing other women than them is part of his sinful nature and they must help them with it.

    As I have said in some other posts – it is one thing for a man to just put things in his wife’s face.
    If a husband is gawking at women in front of his wife this is not fair either to her or the women he is gawking at – it is being rude.
    If a husband is going to look at erotic images and his wife is not comfortable doing this with him(some women are) then he out not to put that in her face either.

    That being said…

    Your wife IS NOT your spiritual authority and if you have peace before God that you can enjoy looking at erotic images then your wife has NO business whatsoever looking over your shoulder or monitoring what you look at.

    You do not have to held hostage to your wife’s emotional whims. You need to make it clear that what you have decided is right for you and what you do in private is not her business and not her concern and if she does not want to be offended by something you are looking at then she best not be spying on your and looking over your shoulder.

  9. A normal, healthy man WILL notice the hot women on the cover of grocery store magazines. A Christian man doesn’t decide to ditch his wife to go find the girl on the magazine. Men are visual, and a normal man will like good looking women. What BGR has said in other posts is that to truly lust after that woman is to plot to take her from her husband, not just to think she is hot, or even to imagine having sex with her. Women have extremely active imaginations and I know for fact my wife sees hot, shirtless guys on TV that get her turned on. It doesn’t bother me because she is a normal woman with a sex drive. If she ever started plotting on how to leave me for another man she has now entered the territory of sin. That is the point BGR is making. Teaching men from an early age that to simply look at girls and be aroused is sinful is wrong and damaging to men. See his previous post on dating. The young man in the example was taught that his feelings were sinful, when on fact they were normal, and it ruined what would have been a Christian marriage. No wonder the church is losing people.

    Typing from my goofy tablet, so please forgive any and all mistakes!

  10. AnnaMS,

    We have had this conversation before in different forms and you are right we don’t agree.

    These are my main two issues with Kristen’s article:

    The first is that she does not understand the Biblical definition of lust and believed that a woman in check out line showing her husband a magazine with a woman’s body on it(probably in a bikini) was tempting her husband to lust. That I contended and showed in my article was a Biblically false understanding of lust.

    The second problem was even if her husband were involved in some sinful activity(which this was not) it is not her place to keep her husband accountable and he is surrendering his position as her spiritual authority by allowing himself to held spiritually accountable to her.

    My final point was that rather than a woman going through the mail or what her husband looks at online (which she has ZERO spiritual authority to do) she should do the one thing she IS responsible to do in order to alleviate her husband’s temptation to ACTUALLY lust and that is to fully give herself sexually to her husband in every way that she can.

    If a woman is sexually ravishing her husband in 90 percent of cases that man will not stray. Now most men will still look at other women and enjoy their forms even if they are getting what they need at home. That is not going to change. But his temptation to lust(think of actually getting other women to sleep with him) in most cases will be non-existent.

  11. Dragonfly,

    Your Statement:

    “BGR, it’s also confusing to me where the line could be drawn for each man in his own mind…
    Honestly, with a good sex life, fulfilling, passionate sex, a husband will hardly even notice those temptations at the supermarket. It really does help to just be a good wife, meet his needs, and be a lover of your husband.”

    Dragonfly – let me see if I can help you with “the line” as this is one of the main goals of my site in helping men to understand the difference between enjoying their God-given sexuality and then the perversion of that God given sexuality which manifests itself in the form of lust.

    There is absolutely no sin Biblically speaking in any of these activities(whether he is married to her or not, whether he has any relationship with her or not):
    1. A man enjoying the form of a woman
    2. A man being sexually aroused by the form of a woman
    3. A man having a sexual imagination(fantasy) about a woman
    4. A man masturbating to a sexual fantasy about a woman

    Up to this point no Biblical line has been crossed.

    Here are some examples of how the line can be crossed and a man’s sexuality turns to lust.

    1. A man has secretary at work whom he is aroused by(thats not sin) and he sometimes he even sexually fantasizes about her(thats still not sin). But if this same man begins to actually ponder in his mind how he might seduce his secretary, starts flirting with her inappropriately and starts thinking of various scenarios in which he could get her to have sex with him now he has crossed that line and allowed his God given sexuality to be perverted into lust.

    2. A man’s wife is sexually denying him, or having lousy sex with him or perhaps never lets him see her naked. He has looked at porn previously, but now he looks at it even more and masturbates to it relieve his sexual tension. Up to this point there is no sin. But his sexual needs can never be fully satisfied by erotic images and eventually he allows himself to start thinking about finding a prostitute to have real sex with. Now he has allowed his normal sexual imagination to be turned into lustful thoughts the moment he began to entertain thoughts of finding a prostitute.

    The line is when sexual arousal or sexual imagination turn into thoughts of sexual possession.

  12. Dragonfly,

    One other thing I wanted to clarify on your statement:
    “a husband will hardly even notice those temptations at the supermarket. It really does help to just be a good wife, meet his needs, and be a lover of your husband.”

    That is actually not true. A man who is completely and utterly satisfied with his sex life with his wife will still notice other women whether they are live and in person or on the cover of a magazine.

  13. BGR, I get what you’re saying but I’m still confused about how exactly this is to play out. A good foundation is valuable, but not nearly as much if we can’t figure out how to live it out in real life. When I get the mail, sometimes I do notice trashy magazines that I throw out (Tobias is aware I do this and is appreciative of it). Do you consider this a problem? This is different from me being paranoid. We only have one mailbox key which I used to have, which he now does. I was not bothered when he took it, and when he does go to get the mail, I don’t dash ahead of him to try to weed out stuff before he can fully examine it. I think if I did this, he would be bothered, but likely because I was displaying a lack of trust in him, so not for the reasons presented here.

    For me, the biggest issue with Kristin is her seemingly constant paranoia. I cant’ imagine how exhausting that must be to always be on high-alert. To try to live her own life, mother her children, and stay one step ahead of her husband at all times. And honestly, in our world today, there is no way she is going to be 100% successful at removing images of scantily-clad women (not to mention actual people) from her husband’s path. She must know this and the inevitable failure must wear her down even more. This cannot be good for her family, her marriage, or her own mental health.

    I think there is also a difference between being part of someone’s accountability team and being a spiritual authority, although obviously the two can be mixed. The Bible talks about a multitude of counselors…surely they will not always be spiritual authorities in our lives. Sometimes the best advice we can get is from a peer who sees us a lot, knows how we struggle (likely struggles in similar ways), might in fact know us better than we know ourselves, but doesn’t actually have any authority over us. I don’t think it’s good for anyone to be someone’s sole source of accountability. I think in a marriage (or serious relationship heading to marriage), this has to be something the man invites. And I think it’s a sign of maturity for him to invite it. I have never ripped a computer out of my husband’s hands to check his history, or randomly asked him what he was looking at. However, when we were dating, he DID ask me to check in at various times to see how his struggle with porn was going. For me, this was an innocent question (asked in private and often over the phone d/t long distance) with no judgments or anything else expressed. He always said it was going well and I promptly dropped it. Do you see a problem with that? As far as I can recall, I have not asked him this since we’ve been married but instead have been focused on meeting his sexual needs. I doubt he’d mind if i did, it honestly just doesn’t cross my mind that much.

  14. I meant “notice” in being tempted to lust after them if they’re sexually satisfied, not that they wouldn’t see them and appreciate their beauty.

  15. Wow BGR, that secretary scenario really could lead to sin. We obviously disagree here. The second scenario I agree with though, porn is not at all the same as real women in his real life working very close to him. There have been many men who had affairs with their secretary, and I’m sure it started with fantasies like a slippery slope.

  16. AnnaMs,

    Your statement:

    “BGR, I get what you’re saying but I’m still confused about how exactly this is to play out. A good foundation is valuable, but not nearly as much if we can’t figure out how to live it out in real life. When I get the mail, sometimes I do notice trashy magazines that I throw out (Tobias is aware I do this and is appreciative of it). Do you consider this a problem?”

    Here are three scenarios when it comes to women “helping” their husbands in this area of sexual temptation:

    1. “Jealous” wife – constantly checking for any signs of beautiful women whether in real life, in print, on the computer or on TV
    2. “Spiritual” wife – not jealous and most likely very secure in her relationship but feels it is her spiritual duty to keep her husband from these temptations
    3. “Obedient” wife – husband has what I believe to be a faulty view of lust, either from his upbringing at home or from his church so he believes he must keep all sexually arousing images or materials from his eyes.

    With all due respect to your husband who sounds like a man who wants to please God – its sounds as though he may fall in category 3. But whatever his reasons – if he is asking you to do this then there is nothing wrong on your part in doing it.

    On the issue of a multitude of counselors, I agree that those counselors could be peers or even subordinates(and even a man’s wife in many cases).
    However as we have discussed before most counselors will tell you that the last person who should be in a man’s sexual accountability circle is his wife(or really any woman). This is because the male natures and female natures are so radically different, especially when it comes to sex.

    So really in conclusion AnnaMS – I don’t think you are doing anything wrong from your perspective as a wife. You husband has asked you to be involved in this area early in your relationship – which was and continues to be a mistake in my opinion. He also has a faulty view of what lust is in my opinion, but he is your spiritual head and you should follow his leadership.

  17. Dragonfly,

    Your Statement:

    “I meant “notice” in being tempted to lust after them if they’re sexually satisfied, not that they wouldn’t see them and appreciate their beauty.”

    Let me ask you about the practicality of your statement. Lust Bibically speaking is covetousness – not sexual arousal. Even if a man is not having his needs met – how likely is going to be to actually lust after a woman on a magazine cover? He would have to be thinking of how he could actually find THAT woman and possess her sexually in order to be lusting after her. The chances of that are in either scenario are slim to none. That is why I maintain that if we truly understand what lust is – it is practically impossible for a man to lust after a woman in a magazine in the supermarket aisle.

    Now it is very possible for a man to lust after a woman he works with – as with the secretary example I gave and this is where the real danger lies, not from some picture of a woman on magazine at the store.

  18. Ok, but this is much bigger than just me and my marriage. Take any woman. Suppose she and her husband didn’t really have conversations about Victoria’s Secret magazines. She sees them in the mailbox and tosses them out in the dumpster so they never make it into the apartment (again not acting out of paranoia as I tried to differentiate in my last comment). As far as she knows, her husband has never asked her to do this or asked her not to. Is that sin?

  19. Dragonfly,

    Your Statement:

    “Wow BGR, that secretary scenario really could lead to sin. We obviously disagree here. The second scenario I agree with though, porn is not at all the same as real women in his real life working very close to him. There have been many men who had affairs with their secretary, and I’m sure it started with fantasies like a slippery slope.”

    I agree with you that a man has to be VERY careful with women he closely works with(especially subordinate women). I also agree that a man allowing himself to have sexual fantasies about a female subordinate or coworker could easily move into lustful thoughts and eventually lead to fornication.

    I personally have a standard for myself that if I have a close relationship with a woman(like a coworker or in-law) that I am more careful of my thoughts with them than with other women as I realize the danger.

    To me the true danger line with women in my opinion is not so much “enjoying the view” or other such thoughts but it is in flirting and inappropriate talk.

    Contrary to what porn movies might show – men and women don’t just have sex(except in the case of prostitution). In most cases a man and a woman form some type emotional intimacy which can then lead to physical intimacy. That is why both before marriage(while dating) and after marriage we must guard against being too emotionally intimate with members of the opposite sex that are not blood relatives or someone we are married to.

    In 90% of cases a man did not have sex with his secretary without first flirting with her or talking inappropriately to her. There may be those rare occasions where she actually has eyes for him and catches him off guard, but in most cases they formed some kind of inappropriate emotional relationship before it got physical.

  20. AnnaMS,

    Your Statement:

    “Ok, but this is much bigger than just me and my marriage. Take any woman. Suppose she and her husband didn’t really have conversations about Victoria’s Secret magazines. She sees them in the mailbox and tosses them out in the dumpster so they never make it into the apartment (again not acting out of paranoia as I tried to differentiate in my last comment). As far as she knows, her husband has never asked her to do this or asked her not to. Is that sin?”

    Yes I think this might be sin because unlike your scenario where you husband has specifically requested your involvement, if a husband has not requested this of his wife then this woman who throws out the Victoria secret catalog before her husband sees it is only doing it for one of two reasons:

    1. She is jealous(paranoid)
    2. She may not have a jealous or paranoid bone in her body, but rather she believes she has a spiritual responsibility to guard her husbands eyes against sexually arousing images.(honestly I think Kristen from the article falls in this category)

    Both of these scenarios are wrong. She is in essence acting outside her spiritual authority in either case.

  21. Also, as to the guy in line looking at a supermodel. Is there really such a difference in your opinion between a man thinking “She lives in LA so if i catch a flight this afternoon maybe I can try to find her and we can have sex tonight” and “Wow, if she was in this grocery store right now, I’d totally be trying to hook up with her for sex”. Practicality or not doesn’t seem to play much of a role here as it’s a heart issue.

  22. AnnaMS,

    Your Statement:

    “Also, as to the guy in line looking at a supermodel. Is there really such a difference in your opinion between a man thinking “She lives in LA so if i catch a flight this afternoon maybe I can try to find her and we can have sex tonight” and “Wow, if she was in this grocery store right now, I’d totally be trying to hook up with her for sex”. Practicality or not doesn’t seem to play much of a role here as it’s a heart issue.”

    I agree that both the thoughts you present would be sinful because they are thoughts of actually trying to possess a woman sexually outside of marriage.

    But let me give you a third scenario in our supermarket checkout line scenario.

    A 45 year old man stands in line with his 40 year old wife. In front of them is a beautiful 20 something young woman putting her groceries on the conveyor belt. He is very much enjoying the view and he thinks to himself “Wow, if we were living in Biblical times I would so love to have her as one of my wives and have sex with her!”

    There is no sin in such a thought. It is only when a man begins to contemplate scenarios of sex outside of marriage with any woman that his thoughts move from pure to impure.

  23. Well at least it’s out in the open now that you think women throwing away magazines like that is sin. I think that is blatantly false but that is where thought processes like your’s do end up and it’s important to recognize that and own that.

    I do think that acting out of jealousy is not always wrong maybe not even most of the time (not looking to split hairs on that one). The Bible talks about Jesus being a jealous God and we both agree that He never sinned. I don’t think a woman has an obligation to keep magazines like VS around her home. Half the time (for us at least as renters), it’s addressed to who I assume were previous tenants. I am hardly obligated to make sure that my husband has images of other people in front of him. I AM obligated to do my best to satisfy his sexual needs. I think there is a difference between trying to be a spiritual leader (which I agree is a problem), and thinking “my husband doesn’t need this temptation”. The former will cause issues that crop up in other places in the marriage. The latter is carelessly chucking a magazine in a dumpster. A husband does not have a right to that magazine that his wife is then trampling on. If he in fact ordered that for his visual pleasure and she is throwing away a specific belonging of his, than that’s another discussion, but that discussion will likely include why he’s ordering VS magazines.

    Honestly, if my husband wants to look at VS models, they have a website he can find on his laptop easily enough (and did once when we were looking up lingerie together….then I got pregnant which effectively postponed that endeavor lol). Obviously I would have a problem with that, but I’m not under any illusions that my throwing away a magazine is removing all access to other woman. But I also don’t think I’m obligated to provide him with that access. If I were to say “Honey, here’s a magazine with bikini models…do you wanna browse through it before I toss it?”, he’d be very concerned for our marriage.

  24. In that instance he is still desiring and contemplating sex outside of marriage. He obviously has a desire to have sex with her, he obviously is not going to end up married to her, and he’s obviously not trying to redirect his thoughts into a more pure format (perhaps admiring his wife’s beauty, a sports magazine, or whatever works for him).

    If he was single, they were engaged, and he was thinking about how much he was looking forward to their wedding night, that would not be a sin.

  25. AnnaMS,

    Your Statement:

    “In that instance he is still desiring and contemplating sex outside of marriage. He obviously has a desire to have sex with her, he obviously is not going to end up married to her, and he’s obviously not trying to redirect his thoughts into a more pure format (perhaps admiring his wife’s beauty, a sports magazine, or whatever works for him).

    If he was single, they were engaged, and he was thinking about how much he was looking forward to their wedding night, that would not be a sin.”

    Anyone can read my previous statement and see is not desiring get that woman to have sex with him outside of marriage.

    AnnaMS – I know we have had this conversation before and I don’t entertain any notions of changing your mind on this issue.

    But for those reading these comments let me dissect AnnaMS comments.

    Anna’s comment: “In that instance he is still desiring and contemplating sex outside of marriage.”
    This is the scenario I said that she was responding to “Wow, if we were living in Biblical times I would so love to have her as one of my wives and have sex with her!”

    Do we see anything in there about him wanting to get her to have sex with him outside of marriage? The clear answer is NO.

    Anna’s comment: “He obviously has a desire to have sex with her”
    There is absolutely nothing biblically wrong with a man desiring to have sex with a woman he is not married to. In fact I would argue every normal heterosexual man desired to have sex with the woman who would become his future wife from the day they met. These sexual desires and sexual fantasies do not magically “turn off” after marriage and they are not sinful even after marriage. It is what we do with them that becomes sin. If he begins to think of how he can send his wife to go get some grocery item so he can talk to the young lady and get her phone number that would be a sinful thought.

    Anna’s comment: “he obviously is not going to end up married to her”

    Anna’s belief on this issue is one that is common among women(both Christian and non-Christian alike). In their view sex can only be imagined in the context of a relationship, there is no way to have sexual imaginations outside the context of a relationship. This is because for most women this is the only way they can think of sex. But men are dichotomous when comes to sex – we can very much separate sex from the context of relationship and imagine just the act itself without the context.

    For instance a man can imagine having sex with a woman he can’t stand. Her personality may be horrible and he has no desire to enter a relationship with her of any kind. Yet he can still imagine having sex with her.

    This is why for most women – they cannot fathom or understand how a man can enjoy the view of or imagine having sex with a woman for whom he has no real intentions of courting and marrying. It simply does not compute for them.

    Anna’s thinking of sexual imagination only being able to occur within the context of a relationship is confirmed by her last statement:
    “If he was single, they were engaged, and he was thinking about how much he was looking forward to their wedding night, that would not be a sin.”

    Again AnnaMS – I know we disagree on this and I am not trying to change your mind anymore, but just putting this out there for men that are reading this. And any man who is being honest about how we as men operate will confirm that what I am saying is true.

  26. AnnaMS,

    Your Statement:
    “Well at least it’s out in the open now that you think women throwing away magazines like that is sin. I think that is blatantly false but that is where thought processes like your’s do end up and it’s important to recognize that and own that.”

    Yes what you have said in the above statement pretty much describes my position on the matter of ads and magazines coming into the home.

    However I would add these disclaimers:

    1. As we previously discussed if a woman’s husband directly asked her to eliminate these things before he sees them there is no problem with that.
    2. There is a difference between those things coming into the home and just keeping them out and around for all to see – there are times and places for these things.
    For instance you might have sex toys that are appropriate for certain times and circumstances but you don’t keep them on your coffee table even though they are not wrong to possess. My father kept a little drawer with lingerie magazines – it was not out for all to see, but we knew it was there and so did my mother. There was nothing wrong in that.

    Also you said:

    “I am hardly obligated to make sure that my husband has images of other people in front of him…But I also don’t think I’m obligated to provide him with that access. If I were to say “Honey, here’s a magazine with bikini models…do you wanna browse through it before I toss it?”, he’d be very concerned for our marriage.”

    Anna I never said a woman was obligated to make sure her husband has images of other women in front of him to look at. But there is a big difference with saying a wife is obligated to supply her husband with sexual images(whether they be magazines, movies…ect) and saying a wife can actively looking to eliminate these sources. I realize you clearly said that you hold no allusions about removing all access to images of other women because you know you can’t control all these sources nor would you try. You are just saying where it is easy for you to eliminate a source(like an incoming VS magazine) you would feel no issues in doing this even if your husband had not previous authorized you to do so. That is where we will have to agree to disagree. I think that would be wrong.

    On the issue of Jealousy – yes the Bible say our God is jealous God and jealousy is not always wrong in every circumstance. However do you realize that the Bible had a test for jealous husbands but not for jealous wives? Do you know why? Because a woman was not permitted to be jealous of her husband. She was his property, he was not hers. He could take on additional wives, she could not take on additional husbands. I realize that totally rubs modern women the wrong way(and it rubbed even women in Biblical times the wrong way)

    Now going back to the original story from Kristen that this post was about – yes the wife in this story was presenting her husband most likely with a magazine with bikini models on it and again as I said in my post rather than this woman being scolded for this as Kristen did(and you probably would too) I think the woman should be applauded for appreciating and respecting her husbands sexual nature and his desiring to look at a variety of beautiful women.

    Obviously based on your comments yes your husband would be concerned for your marriage if you did the same thing – because he knows how you define lust and he defines lust are very different than what I have shown lust is from the Bible.

    “What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.” – Romans 7:7 (KJV)

  27. First of all, my husband never directly asked me to eliminate sources like VS magazines. If I’m remembering correctly, we were getting the mail together after church a few months ago, this was when I had the key and so was unlocking the box and taking it out, and I saw a VS magazine (or something similar, i honestly can’t say). Our conversation went like this…Me: I’m gonna throw this out real quick. Him: Sure. Me: I just don’t like these things in our apartment. Him: No I appreciate that”. I sensed that he wouldn’t mind and was correct in that assumption.

    Secondly, I think there is a time for sex toys and stuff like that (although for couples who disagree, sex toys is just not my hill to die on). But that is to further a couple’s sexual relationship with each other. Sex toys used appropriately can do this quite well. Lingerie magazines are much harder to use correctly and typically end up being a solo activity which takes a man away from his wife rather than enhances his time with her. That is a key difference.

    Thirdly, when I referred to jealousy, I wasn’t using that in context of someone (man or woman) cheating on their spouses. Back in Bible times (which is not the same thing as saying ‘back in the Bible’), men did have multiple wives and all but the first would go into marriage expecting that the man was NOT a virgin. For a woman, this wasn’t the same thing. So of course they wouldn’t have a test of virginity and in fact there is none possible for a guy. However, the one that they used for women is quite faulty as not all women bleed after sex for the first time, and some bleed after the first couple times. So I wonder how many non-virgins fell through the cracks and I’m hoping that not any actual virgins were punished. However, that is not the same thing as saying that women were not allowed to be jealous. Jealousy is not something to allow or disallow. It has already been referenced how Leah almost certainly was jealous of her husband’s preference for Rachel and that feeling was never condemned as sin.

    Fourthly (and moving on to the supermarket topic), you say a lot ‘men can’ or ‘men do’ statements and I don’t doubt it at all. But that doesn’t automatically equate with it being right. Just because something can happen doesn’t mean it should (there’s a name for that term that is escaping me at present). Men can murder a lot of people as well and some do. But that’s definitely not right.

    Finally, yes men are going to desire sex with a woman they are not currently married to. Both genders should have a healthy desire for sex although of course a man’s will normally be stronger. This desire needs to be channeled. If the woman he is thinking about is a girlfriend or a fiance, he should channel that into excitement about a future marital sexual relationship. That is desiring sex in marriage. If the woman is not someone he is in a relationship with but wants to be, he should channel that into trying to start a relationship which will hopefully lead to marriage (assuming other requirements like her being a Christian, both of them being single, etc. are all worked out). That is also desiring sex in marriage. If the woman is someone he is extremely unlikely to ever be married to (like the guy at the supermarket who is married already and will likely be married for quite some time still), he should channel that desire into something that he can put sexual focus on (a wife), or if that is not possible, something that will distract him (like sports, or whatever). That desire is not sex in marriage because any sex that might happen between them will not be in marriage cuz they are extremely unlikely to ever be married. So redirecting his attention to sex in marriage or something else entirely if that is not an option, is his best bet. Imagining being married to someone we are never in a million years going to be married to is hardly the same thing as actually pursuing a woman as a future wife. The appropriateness of a sexual desire for the two woman are therefore hardly the same. Now yes, I do disagree with how you define lust, but even by your definition, this would seem inappropriate.

  28. Just wanted to drop in and comment again, I do agree with your scenario in the supermarket with the man just longing for biblical times… and it clearly wasn’t a sin that God called out or told people expressly not to have multiple wives.

    A lot of women don’t like to acknowledge it, but men are wired to crave variety… not only in sex (sex positions, oral, lingerie, etc.), but actually crave variety in women. So you’re right, BGR, when saying that even if a man is completely filled up and satisfied with his wife and their sexual relationship, he’ll still be attracted to other women, and that will always be there.

    I like how SnapperTrx said that Christian men obviously don’t do anything with that temptation, especially if they’re sexually satisfied with their wife.

  29. Also… this is random, but consider how polygamy was good for this side of the male nature… you could almost say that it fit into a “Male Imperative,” of having options of what to do if their wife was denying them sex or causing them misery… take another wife that acts nicer or is more sexually available. The control was in the men’s hands in that kind of culture, which women typically don’t like.

    Now the narrative has flipped, and many people think we live under a “Feminine Imperative” which is like an undercurrent of many different facets affecting outcomes everywhere in favor of women. Monogamy is in favor of women. Only one woman gets all the support and provision of a man by locking down his male sexual nature and we’ve taken it even further to shame him for merely even **looking** at another female form. His sexual nature is so under her control, that we have wives like Kristen who think they have to control everything he sees or does to keep him faithful (even mentally faithful) only to her.

    It’s really interesting to look at it that way to me.

  30. That is a very interesting point, Dragonfly. For me, it’s not too much of a surprise that women don’t love living under a ‘Male Imperative’ and men don’t love living under a ‘Female Imperative’. I wonder where you fall on that line? IMO, it’s best to live under a ‘God Imperative’ which does call for things like male leadership in marriage but also calls for things like equal worth and value among genders. Under a Female Imperative, you see examples like Kristin where paranoia takes over and she falls into the sin of trying to be her husband’s spiritual leader. Under the Male Imperative, you see women being stoned for a lack of evidence for virginity (which proves nothing when it actually comes to virginity) whereas you see God letting the woman caught in adultery be set free and told to sin no more. Just food for thought.

  31. Dragonfly,

    Your Statement:

    “A lot of women don’t like to acknowledge it, but men are wired to crave variety… not only in sex (sex positions, oral, lingerie, etc.), but actually crave variety in women. So you’re right, BGR, when saying that even if a man is completely filled up and satisfied with his wife and their sexual relationship, he’ll still be attracted to other women, and that will always be there.”

    There is a lot of wisdom in that statement that few women will not only accept, but also apply to their marriage with their husbands. And you are right as SnapperTrx said this does not mean we as Christian men will go running after these other women we may be attracted to, it is simply acknowledging the fact that men are truly wired for sexual variety.

    And as I have said countless times on this blog – there is a huge difference between a man simply finding a woman sexually attractive(or even imagining things about her)- and him gawking at her or flirting with her(especially if he is married).

    I think many women know this is exactly how a man’s nature works – but they either do what you say and refuse to acknowledge it or if they do acknowledge it they do as AnnaMS has done and they call it a corruption of God’s original design in men(sin). They believe God originally design men to desire one woman and one woman only and anything beyond this a corruption.

    Really I think that women need to be honest with themselves about their own natures. Most women desire to be the center of their man’s universe. They want to be his idol. They want to be the thing he worships(and this is what modern romance encourages of men). They want to be the only woman he finds beautiful and they want 100% of his sexual energy and imagination focused squarely on them.

    Many churches play right into this idolatry by telling men to do these very things and to make their wives the focus of their lives.

  32. Dragonfly,

    Your Statement:

    “Also… this is random, but consider how polygamy was good for this side of the male nature… you could almost say that it fit into a “Male Imperative,” of having options of what to do if their wife was denying them sex or causing them misery… take another wife that acts nicer or is more sexually available. The control was in the men’s hands in that kind of culture, which women typically don’t like.

    Now the narrative has flipped, and many people think we live under a “Feminine Imperative” which is like an undercurrent of many different facets affecting outcomes everywhere in favor of women. Monogamy is in favor of women. Only one woman gets all the support and provision of a man by locking down his male sexual nature and we’ve taken it even further to shame him for merely even **looking** at another female form. His sexual nature is so under her control, that we have wives like Kristen who think they have to control everything he sees or does to keep him faithful (even mentally faithful) only to her.”

    Again – well said. A polygamous society does in fact fit the male sexual nature much better and would lead to less divorce and less sexual sin but no one wants to acknowledge that fact. If a man’s wife was displeasing to him no God did not want him to throw her on the street – and that was what Christ was trying to address in Matthew 5 and other Gospel passages about wrongful divorce. But while a man did not have the option to put away his wife simply because of her disrespect, sexual denial or lack of sexual enthusiasm he did have another option given to him by God – to take another wife.

    This is where a concept similar Rollo’s Red Pill idea of dread came in. In a polygamous society a woman was highly motivated to keep her husband happy and serve his needs and wishes because if she did not he could take another wife who would. We often hear of jealousy between wives over their husbands in polygamous relationships – but jealousy spurs competition – it makes wives to compete for the affection of their husbands.

    God even says he took on the Church as his betrothed bride to spur his former wife Israel to jealousy so she would come back to him.
    “I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.” – Romans 11:11 (KJV)

    This is the problem we face today. Women no longer have to compete for their husbands affection in marriage – instead men are forced to gravel at their wives feet. You are very correct that monogamy favors women in this regard.

    So while I disagree with Rollos ideas about making wives think their husband may have affairs if she does not please him – I understand where they are coming from. There used to be a Biblical alternative to Rollo’s idea about provoking a woman to jealousy and competition – it was called polygamy.

  33. AnnaMS,

    Your Statement:

    “That is a very interesting point, Dragonfly. For me, it’s not too much of a surprise that women don’t love living under a ‘Male Imperative’ and men don’t love living under a ‘Female Imperative’. I wonder where you fall on that line? IMO, it’s best to live under a ‘God Imperative’ which does call for things like male leadership in marriage but also calls for things like equal worth and value among genders. Under a Female Imperative, you see examples like Kristin where paranoia takes over and she falls into the sin of trying to be her husband’s spiritual leader. Under the Male Imperative, you see women being stoned for a lack of evidence for virginity (which proves nothing when it actually comes to virginity) whereas you see God letting the woman caught in adultery be set free and told to sin no more. Just food for thought.”

    AnnaMS – Women being stoned for not being virgins was in fact under the “God imperative” and so was polygamy unless you want to throw out the law of Moses as not being given by God.

    Men and women have always had equal worth before God – but not equal rights or roles. Equality of rights and roles does not equal equality of personhood as we so falsely taught today in western culture.

  34. I wholly agree with this, but would also like to add in the fact that in earlier days (not even that long ago), women relied on their husbands for provision, and they did not have the guarantee that if they divorced their husbands, they would have sustenance. Not that women didn’t have any skill, we can see in Proverbs 31 that this woman had great skill and was financially savvy, but most women didn’t have skill that would allow them to maintain the same lifestyle and security they had while married. Now days that is not the case. Women can take away a mans livelihood, his children, his home, his car, and his good name, all with a few simple words. This fact has also taken away one of the tools men used to be able to use to maintain order. Heck, now you can’t even deny your wife a new pair of shoes without it being called ‘abuse’. Unfortunately for men this makes Rollo’s version of ‘dread game’ one of the few viable options to instill dread in a marriage, and even that may not work if a man hasn’t kept his body in shape (typical ‘dad bods’ wont cut it). I suggest every man read BGR’s post on how a Christian man can admonish his wife, but, as the comments section quickly points out, all it takes is a word and suddenly that man will be accused of abuse from his wife, his pastor, his family – or worse.

  35. The Old Testament law, especially the civil and ceremonial laws which governed the specific activities of the people in their legal and religious practices, were given to the Jews for the Jewish context at that time. Just like, I’m assuming, you don’t see a need to build a wall around the roof of your house (Deut. 22:8), or avoid the consumption of pork or shellfish, we are no longer under the law that women who fail to pass the test of blood should be stoned. As Christ tells us, the law has not passed away, and the moral law that is presented in the OT (the general moral commands that back the OT Law and of which the civil and ceremonial laws are specific outworkings for the OT Jewish context) is the same moral law that backs the NT–as Christ as, all of the law and the prophets is contained in two commands: love God and love neighbor. However, as Paul tells us, obedience to the law (even the moral law) is not the means of justification, this comes by faith, and the OT civil and ceremonial laws have been and must be replaced by something higher and better. Now I’ve never seen you advocating for stoning women or building a wall around your roof, so when you’re not cherry picking for polygamy or something else, I’m assuming this is something that you in general believe in.

    Also, please do not misquote me and say that I believe men will only be attracted to one woman. As I have actually argued with Jeff previously, I absolutely believe that men crave variety. Jeff, and some other men are satisfied with Missionary sex each and every time and there is nothing wrong with that, but I do not believe that is the general rule when it comes to men. Now they can find sinful outlets for this, or they can find Godly ones and I’m not going to argue that because the desire is there, every way of satisfying it must therefore be good. My husband absolutely desires variety, not just when it comes to types of sex or sexual positions (although that is of course true), but also in my personal appearance. He has mentioned that he would love if I experimented with hair colorings (not in the budget at present), he loves when I vary my clothing style from day to day, and he was absolutely ecstatic when I visited him when we were dating (we were long distance) and had straightened my hair.

    And yes, God sees men and women as having equal value and worth. I have definitely never argued with that, and in fact use that as the basis for my claim. However, the ‘Male Imperative’ in general does not. Spend some time reading Red Pill blogs (and not just Christian ones) and it will jump out at you. Or read Jeff’s comment on a previous post where he was delighted to find his son refusing to recognize girls as his equal. And as the good old movie Wrinkle in Time says “Like and Equal are not the same thing”. So of course that is not what I am trying to say either.

    Also, to avoid confusion, my husband participated some in this comment, so people might see a mix of his and my writing styles.

  36. AnnaMS,

    First I wanted to let you know I am working on two different posts based on comments you have made here. You are good for inspiring posts 🙂

    I know that you and I agree on many things and some things we are on the same side of the aisle. We are definitely share the same faith and same love of God’s Word. We both believe in headship and submission(although we define it differently at times). But there are some issues such as women, education, careers and this issue of male sexuality where we are on different sides of the philosophical aisle.

    It is sort of funny I get emails on both sides all the time. Some ask me why I do I spend time and resources debating Christians who are on the other side of the philosophical aisle instead of just spending all my time writing and researching for those who truly believe what I am showing is a correct understanding and application of Scripture. Then I get those who accuse me of not allowing enough opposing views here and responding to enough of them as well.

    My answer to both sides of this philosophical divide between Christians is that I think BOTH are necessary. We need to make positive stands on what we believe, but also be able to respond to the naysayers. So I try and do both to the best of my ability. Now some people come on here and start engaging in personal attacks against me or others or instead of attacking the position they attack what they think are the motives behind the person taking that position. Those are things I will warn against and then eventually those people won’t be here anymore.

    I say all that to say while I know as you have said somethings I have written have made you cry at times, or perhaps made you upset – I applaud you for keeping things about the issues and positions and have not made them into personal attacks.

    Your position on the male sexual nature is actually very representative of the position of many women and men with whom I have attended church over the years. So for those who believe that I am rightly expounding on the Word of Truth on this site they need to be able to answer the folks on your side of the aisle in their churches so I think it is good that we have these discussions.

    Before I finish up my two posts – if you don’t mind could you clarify your position on men being attracted to multiple women?

    You said:

    “Also, please do not misquote me and say that I believe men will only be attracted to one woman. As I have actually argued with Jeff previously, I absolutely believe that men crave variety. Jeff, and some other men are satisfied with Missionary sex each and every time and there is nothing wrong with that, but I do not believe that is the general rule when it comes to men. Now they can find sinful outlets for this, or they can find Godly ones and I’m not going to argue that because the desire is there, every way of satisfying it must therefore be good. My husband absolutely desires variety, not just when it comes to types of sex or sexual positions (although that is of course true), but also in my personal appearance. He has mentioned that he would love if I experimented with hair colorings (not in the budget at present), he loves when I vary my clothing style from day to day, and he was absolutely ecstatic when I visited him when we were dating (we were long distance) and had straightened my hair.”

    You say that you believe men will be attracted to more than one woman – but do you think that is part of a man’s God given nature or is that a corruption of his nature from the fall in your opinion?

    To clarify the previous question – after a man is married he will still be drawn to the beauty of other women and have sexual thoughts about them is that part of his sin nature or part of his original design from God in your opinion?

    In your quote above you talk about men craving variety but do you acknowledge that men crave more than just a variety of sexual positions or dress styles from one woman but they actually desire a variety of women? If you acknowledge this to be true that men crave a variety of women do you think that is part of their sin nature or part of the original design from God?

    If you could clarify these things that would be great. Thanks

  37. AnnaMS, I think I’m with you on rejecting both imperatives… especially when one does take time to read some of the extreme red pill male blogs where it shows exactly what a true “Male Imperative” would mean for society. Some of their stuff for men is good, but certainly not all of it, and I think most of the writers are not Christian at all, so of course that reflects in how little they value women, marriage, and especially how little they value being husbands or fathers. It may be that the brunt of the Female Imperative has hurt them so much that it’s created this kind of reaction, but still… a lot of it is nasty. Be careful being pregnant and reading some of that crap, it’s not good to be stressed out when pregnant. With our first boy, I was working for an insane woman, to the point where I was having nightmares about work and her (LOL funny looking back on it though). I actually delivered our oldest boy a MONTH early, and my doctor thought it could have been due to the immense stress she was putting me under. With the second baby boy, I wasn’t working outside the home, and the birth was wonderful and peaceful, and he was full-term and totally healthy. So please, take care of yourself in that regard. ❤

  38. Thank you for your kind words. I also enjoy conversing with people whom I disagree with to some extent. Screaming personal insults does nothing to further either person’s opinion. I’m glad I’m prompting posts rather than too much frustration (hopefully!)

    I think men prefer variety as part of human nature. Women do as well to a lesser extent (normally). My husband recently suggested serving the same noodle casserole for a week in a row to help with budgeting and I rather balked at that idea (did manage to remain in budget though I will add). Jesus Himself prefers variety. Not all humans, animals, or plants look the same. Even the same tree will change colors throughout the year. This will look different from man to man. For Jeff, he hardly needs variety at all. Some of that might be because he has been starved sexually for so long that his sexual needs have adjusted accordingly, but I have no idea if that is accurate scientifically or not…just throwing it out there. But I do think it is a mistake to speak of ‘men’ as all having identical needs or desires as that is not true. Even on a basic level, you will see some men who prefer blondes over brunettes or vice versa. Nothing against the other, it just doesn’t get them going in quite the same way. There are even some men who prefer massively overweight woman.

    I think the same woman can provide variety for her husband. As Dragonfly and I (and I believe you as well) have mentioned previously, a married woman would be wise to allow and even enthusiastically encourage sexual variety in the bedroom. I think if a woman refuses to provide variety at all, than yes a husband will be attracted to woman who provide other things. I think a husband needs to show patience here. I know of some women who took awhile to become comfortable with oral sex, and even now still struggle with it (I am definitely in this category). I am more than willing to experiment with different positions, but with my expanding belly, some positions are very uncomfortable for me to sustain for an extended period of time. My husband is gracious and we have discussed fun things to try after the baby is born. All that to say if a woman can’t bring it all at the beginning of marriage, or has to give things up for pregnancy, that should not be a mark against her.

    I think men need to consider this prior to marriage. I know for my husband, he knew he wanted to be with me before he knew he wanted to ONLY be with me. He even said as much at the time. When we moved to different states, he was worried he would struggle with ‘grass is greener syndrome’ and be attracted to every women he saw on campus. During the first weeks, he was delighted to discover that he did in fact see many different beautiful women but his reaction was always “she’s attractive…but she’s not like Anna” (a direct quote from him i’m pretty sure). By my willingness to provide as much variety as I could (obviously we were not sexual at the time), and by conversations about sexual preferences (which I think are very important to have before marriage), I was able to convince him that I would do my best to fulfill that desire. And overtime, he was able to realize that enough of his desires would be able to be met by me that he was not tempted to overly struggle with any particular woman. However, if a man really really likes red-heads, he would be wise to put serious caution into marrying a brunette. Women are wise to do their part but don’t set her up for failure!

    I think it’s also wise to consider that to some extent (not necessarily sexually), this will be the same for women as well. I read a fantastic book by Elizabeth Elliott to her daughter where she said that when her daughter chose to marry a man, she was also choosing not to marry every other man. I think that is where we see a lot of struggle with both genders is we see lots of people saying ‘yes’ to one person but not realizing what saying ‘no’ to everybody else looks like. When I chose my husband, I knew I would be giving up being with someone who would have an athletic body or a sizable income. That was definitely worth it to me for what I did get with him, but it was nevertheless important for me to realize. Nobody gets it all in life and it’s a mistake to assume only men are giving up stuff.

    I think men will always notice a woman’s beauty, but I don’t think that notice necessarily has to be sexual. We watched an older movie with Catherine Zeta-Jones in it yesterday and I pointed out that she was quite attractive when she was younger. My husband agreed. I rather doubt he was entertaining sexual thoughts about her.

    I asked my husband and he said that yes, there is in men an inherent desire for variety in women but he considers that an expression of lust. You don’t see that desire in Adam in the Bible. He was satisfied and happy with Eve prior to the Fall. God initially created Adam and Eve as one couple with one man and one woman. A desire outside of that is unnatural in the same way that homosexuality is unnatural (even if there is a genetic component to the latter). You’re probably wondering now why God allowed polygamy, but I think He allowed it for the same reasons He allows divorce…men are weak (which is not to say that women aren’t…plenty of women divorce for terrible reasons). We don’t see polygamy lauded in the NT. If the men there were polygamous, it wasn’t mentioned. I think men can channel this in healthy ways like asking their wives to be open to variety, and I think woman should be willing to do that.

  39. Thank you Dragonfly for your kind words as well. I think (and I actually discussed this with my husband on our long drive back from visiting family for the holidays) that extreme feminists and extreme red pill men attempt to be antidotes for the other but are also contributing to the very presence of the other. Remember that feminism began with Mary Wollstonecraft as a response to men like Kant and Rousseau who argued that women were devoid of virtue and reason and were therefore not fully human. I think that was a necessary step but slipped to the point where we have extreme people on both sides calling the other person out for their crap without realizing that they might be contributing to the problem.

    I don’t spend a lot of time on those blogs…just enough to know that when I’m referencing them, I’m still accurate in my appraisal. My husband hates them and would outright ban them if I let it get out of control.

  40. You say that men’s like of variety is human nature, then state that God himself likes variety, making it a Godly nature. If God so likes variety, and man is made in His image then it makes sense that the desire for variety is part of Godly nature. Yes it varies from man to man, but overall man has a desire for variety in food, location, and, yes, women. And I would certainly agree that one woman can provide a lot of variety for her husband, if she is willing, but I would be willing to bet that your husbands desire for ONLY you stems more from cultural upbringing than spiritual guidance. Were he born in another culture or several thousand years ago his thought might have been more along the lines of “I would love to make her the first of my wives!” (first wives having an important place in the order of the house.). Yes, God allows polygyny (multiple wives, not polygymy, multiple spouses – husbands or wives), but unlike divorce Jesus did not speak against it in the NT. He was very clear about the allowances for divorce, and that God hates it. He did not, however, speak out against polygyny. What of modern day countries that still practice polygyny? If a man from one of these countries becomes Christian, is he to divorce his second and third wife? He is bound the them already, and they have become ‘one flesh’. He is obligated to care for them, and it would be ungodly for him not to.

    On another note, I really don’t like the way WordPress handles replying to posts through their site, as it only allows a very small viewing window for editing. If there are mistakes here, please overlook them.

  41. SnapperTrx, yes culture does play a role here but it does not determine right or wrong. If I were born in an Arab nation, I might believe that rape was a woman’s fault because it meant she had had sex with a man who was not her husband. I think (or at least definitely hope), that we can agree that that is not the case. Different things might be more comfortable in different societies (premarital sex is certainly accepted as the norm in America), but that does not mean they are in fact right.

    I don’t think a newly saved man in that position needs to divorce his extra wives anymore than i think that a friend of my mom’s who divorced her husband for un-Biblical reasons and remarried, should divorce her second husband and try to return to her first.

  42. Culture does, however, affect how we interpret the Word of God. In todays modern society everything, even scripture, ends up being filtered through the lens of the culture. That doesn’t mean it should be, however! The bible says that women should cover their heads in the church, but most Christians (99%) would scoff at that idea and say ‘well, that’s just a leftover from the culture!’, while at the same time espousing the fact that God is unchanging, and what pleased him 2000+ years ago pleases Him today, likewise what angered Him 2000+ years ago angers Him today. It is correct to say that we don’t turn to society for spiritual guidance, we turn to the Word! It is also foolish to say that our interpretation of the Word is not made weak by our adoption of our culture. What do we do then? Shed culture while looking at the Word! Does the Word speak against homosexuals? Yes! Against murder? Yes! Against more than one wife? No. Yes there are examples of those with multiple wives whos lives went to pot, but the entire Bible is a book of conflict and struggle against the fall of man, and God’s saving grace through His son. I can think of no story that simply says, ‘X was a good follower of God, he did well, the end.’. For every example of family failures in multi-wife situations we see in the bible there are likely thousands of unrecorded examples of families that thrived and did well with multiple wives! If it were sin to have multiple wives then why would a man from a foreign country NOT divorce his other wives, as continuing to have more than one means knowingly living in continual sin?

  43. “When we moved to different states, he was worried he would struggle with ‘grass is greener syndrome’ and be attracted to every women he saw on campus. During the first weeks, he was delighted to discover that he did in fact see many different beautiful women but his reaction was always “she’s attractive…but she’s not like Anna” (a direct quote from him i’m pretty sure). By my willingness to provide as much variety as I could (obviously we were not sexual at the time), and by conversations about sexual preferences (which I think are very important to have before marriage), I was able to convince him that I would do my best to fulfill that desire. And overtime, he was able to realize that enough of his desires would be able to be met by me that he was not tempted to overly struggle with any particular woman. However, if a man really really likes red-heads, he would be wise to put serious caution into marrying a brunette. Women are wise to do their part but don’t set her up for failure!”

    ^^That is so sweet Anna!!! I’m so glad that your husband told you that and feels that way! My husband said something very similar to that as well, and he tells me how he knows what a good thing he has with me, that even though he’s around very sexy women pretty often, that I have nothing to worry about because of how well I take care of him. He knows what he has, and I likewise, know what I have 😀 We are extremely and insanely happy! ❤ I'm so glad that you and your husband have this kind of marriage – there is NOTHING better in life (short of having a good relationship with God) that will fulfill you more through all of life's ups and downs than to have a good marriage. It is everything in life.

    I do think it's sad when men marry without clearly knowing what they want in their future wife, or marry someone because of pregnancy and then set themselves up for a life of not being fulfilled by her (even if it's her fault for not being sexually available).

    My husband experienced other women before me (even sexually), so he knew exactly what he wanted and knew he was "saying no" to all the other women when he picked me… it was part of the reason why we married so fast, because he was fixed on me and not in a "blind" way. He walked into our marriage with both eyes open, and I'm sure men can do this as virgins as well, they just have to be realistic. I do feel sorry for the men who didn't marry so well… and if you read around in the "manosphere" long enough, you'll find that most of the wisest and most revered ones there, married very low value women, or their wives were treating them horrible at the time they found the manosphere (and I rate wives who do that as very "low value" as well). These men are ironically quite snobby! I only recently realized that most of them married so poorly themselves, that for many of them, they actually wish they HADN'T married their wives and had married either someone else, or remained single. I had looked up to many of these men, and thought they were really wise, but after seeing what their marriages really look like, it was all an illusion that they were wise at all… just snobby and too prideful to admit that our marriage is above average.

  44. Sometimes it is not by choice that men marry poorly, as women seem to portray themselves as one thing during courtship and another after being wed, which is, I think, a main crux of the anger of the Manosphere. Those “snobby” men you speak of are angry because some of them (not all) have been hoodwinked into believing a woman to be one thing when she is, indeed, another. I am not defending these men, as I have no idea who you are talking about, but merely brining up the point. Personally I think both sexes are responsible for this whole situation. And, not to beat a dead horse, but the reason you see these men who ‘seem wise but whos marriages are in shambles’ is because it often times takes a mans marriage being dashed into shambles for him to realize the reality of the situation. Before the breaking point, he is often still hopped up on the ‘blue pill’, thinking everything is fine and the world works the way everyone says it does, when, in fact, it does not.

  45. Thank you Dragonfly! Yes, a good God-glorifying marriage is truly a huge blessing and I feel sorry for whoever is not able to experience it (outside of the few who are blessed with singleness). I also agree with what you wrote about the manosphere guys as well as their wives.

    I must admit though that I was a little curious when you said that your husband knew he was saying no to every other woman when he married you, yet you seem to advocate for polygamy. Am I misunderstanding you? Or how do you reconcile that?

  46. SnapperTrx, you say what pleased God way back when (I’m assuming you’re referring to OT times which would actually be over 2000 years ago) is the same as what pleases Him now. And in general, righteousness is what pleases God now just as it did earlier. But some things have in fact changed. Before the fall, perfection is what pleased God. In OT times, animal sacrifices atoning for sin is what pleased God (nothing against perfection, but everybody knew that wasn’t going to happen). After Jesus’ death, including current and future times on earth, belief in His atonement for sins is what pleases Him (and in fact, thinking that animal sacrifices will do the same job is now very displeasing to Him). When we get to Heaven, constant adoration, glorifying, and worship will please Him (keeping this vague on purpose as I dont’ know exactly what that will look like of course).

  47. Dragonfly,

    Your Statement:

    “AnnaMS, I think I’m with you on rejecting both imperatives… especially when one does take time to read some of the extreme red pill male blogs where it shows exactly what a true “Male Imperative” would mean for society. Some of their stuff for men is good, but certainly not all of it, and I think most of the writers are not Christian at all, so of course that reflects in how little they value women, marriage, and especially how little they value being husbands or fathers.”

    I agree Dragonfly that Red Pill while acknowledging many wrongs against men in our current society and many of the evils of feminism that it places little emphasis on showing men how to be good husbands and fathers but instead just to look out for their own needs and self interests. This is why I believe God has blessed my site so much as it really has become a Biblical alternative to red pill and I have had many Christian men emailing me and telling me about how happy they have been to find a Christian alternative to Red Pill.

  48. AnnaMS – I don’t think it was a sin, God created laws for it in the OT, but I’m very very happy in our monogamous marriage, and my husband believes polygamy causes more problems than it’s worth.

  49. Dragonfly,

    Your Statement:

    “AnnaMS – I don’t think it was a sin, God created laws for it in the OT, but I’m very very happy in our monogamous marriage, and my husband believes polygamy causes more problems than it’s worth.”

    I am sure that many men even in the times before the Romans got rid of polygamy had the exact same thought your husband did. With each wife came more responsibilities as you would need to give each wife a portion of your time and energy. Also I think it is very possible that some men found the love of their life in their first wife and she was so perfect and loving to them they could not imagine being with another woman. But those women were few like the Bible says rare gems(Proverbs 31). And lets not forget that some men just have much lower sex drives and one woman would do them just fine.

    I think that often times the mistake people make today is saying “well that was their culture and it was bad” and we stand in judgment and never even consider the possibility that it is our culture that has many of these things wrong.

    We also never think of how we would feel if were raised then and lived as they did – if you took both men AND woman from that era and showed them the cowardliness of men and rebelliousness of women today they would be as ashamed of our culture as many today are of theirs.

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