How the modern practice of “Christian dating” is cruel to men

Many Christians advocate for teaching teens and young adults abstinence. They are right in doing so because the Bible teaches sexual relations between a man and a woman are reserved for marriage.   But the majority of abstinence training only teaches half of the abstinence God calls for when it comes to intimate relationships between men and women.

This “half measure” abstinence that is taught in most Churches today has lead to modern practices in Christian dating that encourage emotional cruelty toward men.

I think the best way to illustrate the cruelty of so-called “Christian dating” is with a story.

A Christian dating story

Jonathan was a young Christian man raised in a conservative Baptist Church. All growing up and in his teen group he was taught that sex is for marriage.

“Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.” – Hebrews 13:4 (KJV)

He memorized this passage from Hebrews and countless other passages of Scripture. He was determined that he would not have sex before marriage and prayed each day for the Holy Spirit to help him avoid sinful thoughts of trying to get any woman to have sex with him before marriage.

Jonathan attended a conservative Christian college where he felt the call of God on his life to become a minister. While he was studying for the ministry he was introduced to a beautiful young woman named Sarah. He befriended Sarah and eventually he approached her in the college library and asked her on a date.

Sarah told Jonathan that she would love to go out with him but he must agree to some things first. She told him “I believe that sex is reserved for marriage, and that includes all sexual touching. Eventually I may let you give me a peck on the lips and hold my hand but that is as far as I believe God would have us to go.” Jonathan replied “That’s great I feel the same way!” and they agree to a date the following week.

On the night of their first date as Jonathan approaches her dorm to pick her up he is nervous and excited all at the same time. He has bought her a beautiful bouquet of roses and he can’t wait to give them to her. When he sees her come out her dorm his breath is taken away by her beauty. She graciously accepts his flowers, hands them off to her girlfriend and they were off on their first date.

At the restaurant they talk and explore one another’s lives. They both want this night to never end. Afterward they go for a long walk just continuing to talk – but there is no physical contact, no holding hands. Sarah and Jonathan are both having the same thoughts – “I would sure love to hold their hand, but I know I can’t – not yet.”

Jonathan drops her off at her dorm and while he wishes he could have held her hand and kissed her good night he still had a wonderful time.

Within just a few weeks of dating Jonathan tells Sarah for the first time that he loves her and she tells him that she loves him.

Over several weeks Jonathan and Sarah continue to date and with each passing date he so wants to hold her hand and kiss her goodnight. He also finds that he really wants to do much more. Each date he begins more and more to imagine what she looks like without clothes and how wonderful it would be to touch her body. How wonderful it would be to have sex with her. But he dismisses these thoughts as wicked and sinful and asks God to forgive him each and every day several times a day.

Eventually on one date she reaches out to hold his hand to let him know that it is now ok. At the end of the night she gives him a good night peck on the lips to let him know that is ok now too. These things feel wonderful to Jonathan – but he longs for so much more with her.

Now let’s return to the beginning of Jonathan and Sarah’s relationship and look at it from Sarah’s perspective.

After that first date she was on cloud nine. As they continued to date she was fantasying about how big their wedding would be and what her dress might look like. She was imagining how many children they would have and how she would decorate her home.

The fact that he was handsome didn’t hurt either. Sarah had always worried if she would be able to find both a godly and handsome man and in Jonathan she had found both. She couldn’t wait to kiss him and hold his hand. But she made herself wait, she knew there needed to be some time. She didn’t want to give Jonathan the impression she was one of those “easy girls” or think she would do “other things” too.

Finally after several weeks of dating she felt it was time to “let herself go” and hold his hand for the very first time. At the end of the night she would give him that good night kiss she had so longed to do since ending her first date with him.

Every day he texted her and she couldn’t wait to hear about his day and to share the happenings of her day with him. Every beep of her phone was a thrill – “how will he tell me he loves me next? “When will he propose?” – She wonders. If he went several hours without texting her, she would text him to check and see how he was doing and if anything was wrong.

With each date she went on with him she was more impressed with his character and godliness more than ever. “He knows the Bible so well and loves the Lord – this is a man who could lead me, this is a man who could be my husband and the father of my children. This is a man whom I would be proud to serve as his help meet.” – This is what she thought.

Jonathan knows it will be two years before he graduates from college with his pastoral degree and then he can being looking for his first ministry as a youth pastor. He believes a man must be able to provide for his wife as Christ provides for his Church before he can marry her. He wonders how soon he should propose knowing it will be some time before they can marry.

One day he decides to “take the plunge” and even though it will still be roughly two years before he graduates and gets his first ministry job – he is going to pledge his undying love and devotion to her and the fact that he wants to marry Sarah when the time is right in a little over two years.

Jonathan takes Sarah to the nicest restaurant he can afford (based on his pay as a cook at a local restaurant). The ring he bought was only $200.00 – that is all he could afford. He gives it to her and asks her to marry him. He tells her “I know this ring is not much, but someday I will get you a much a nicer one.” She tells him “I don’t care how much the ring costs – of course I will marry you! I love you!”

Sarah gives Jonathan the biggest kiss she has ever given him – not just some peck on the lips. He takes her home to her dorm and she is on cloud nine and so is he.

Sarah runs into her dorm room and shares the wonderful news with all her girlfriends. “I am getting married!” She can’t sleep that night as she now begins to make real plans – not just fantasies of her wedding and then their beautiful life together. Her father is a wealthy man and will be able to provide her and Jonathan with nothing but a first class wedding. Her mother has many precious pieces of furniture just waiting to be hers. And the children they will have together – they will be so beautiful and he will be such a wonderful father.

She can’t wait for these two years to pass by so she can have the wedding of dreams, the husband of her dreams, the children of her dreams and the home of her dreams.

But she also thinks to herself – “But I also want to enjoy our engagement time together before we are married and I don’t want this special time we share now before we are married to be gone too quickly.”

When Jonathan gets back to his dorm room he also shares the wonderful news with his friends “She accepted!” Like Sarah Jonathan can’t sleep that night either. Except the reason he can’t sleep is very different than Sarah’s. Jonathan is thinking about that passionate kiss Sarah gave him when she accepted his marriage proposal and how in his heart he wanted so much more. He can’t stop thinking about her breasts and the curves of her hips. He can stop thinking of how sexy her tight rear end looked. He imagines how beautiful her naked body would be and how soft her body would be to touch and how wonderful it would be to have sex with her.

Then he remembers – “It is going to be two long years. How will I make it through never touching her the way I long to touch her?” He prays and asks the Lord to forgive him of his sensual thoughts about Sarah and resolves to keep his mind on pure things, and not these “impure sexual thoughts”.

Over the next couple of dates Sarah has the “wedding date topic” on her mind. But she does not want to come on too fast about it so she exercises self-control and waits three more dates before finally popping the question to Jonathan – “When do you think would be a good wedding date” and she presents a Calendar she printed out for two years in the future.

That calendar just reminds Jonathan again that his agony will be prolonged another two years. But Jonathan gives his thoughts to God and helps Sarah to pick out a wedding date. She is so excited! They take a walk through a park and Jonathan goes to give her a kiss and as they embrace he begins to move his hand down the small her back to her bottom.

Sarah is shocked! “How could he have just done that?” – She thinks. “We were having a romantic evening and we just picked out a wedding date and now he has his hands on my butt!” – Inside she is disappointed and mortified.

But in that moment she realizes “He is a sinner just like me and I should forgive him” and she gently moves his hand off her bottom and back onto the small of her back.

After they kiss she tells him “Jonathan, remember our commitment to the Lord and the fact that we want to follow his ways and wait for marriage right?” Jonathan replies “I am so sorry, I don’t know what came over me – it won’t happen again.”

But Jonathan knew exactly what was going through his mind “I want her so bad, even just to touch her bottom tonight”.

Several weeks went by without incident. Sarah felt that Jonathan had a moment of weakness but the problem was solved. Then one night as they kiss good night and embrace one another Jonathan reaches up and feels her breast. Sarah quickly pulls his hand away and asks Jonathan “Why did you do that – I thought we had an understanding?” Jonathan begins to cry – “I don’t know what is wrong with me, I am so sorry for what I did. I need to go”.

Sarah was worried about Jonathan. She texts him with no response all evening long. Finally the next morning Jonathan texts Sarah back “We need to call off the engagement and we need to break up. It is not because you would not let me touch you or have sex with you, it is because I cannot control myself when I am around you. You are intoxicating to me, and every time I am with you I think about what it would like to touch you, to see you naked and have sex with you. I need to work on myself and be a better man before I can be with any woman again”.

What went wrong with our Christian dating story?

Was it a flaw in Jonathan’s character that caused him to touch Sarah’s bottom and on a later date her breast? Or was it a flaw in something else?

The flaw was in the entire concept of modern Christian dating, the flaw was not in Jonathan’s desire for sexual intimacy with Sarah. It was not even in the pleasure he received from thinking of her body or what it would be like to touch her or have sex with her.

The flaw was with Jonathan being in that position in the first place. Being in that intimate relationship with that woman BEFORE he was married to her.

I have attended conservative Baptist Churches for most of my life. I still attend a conservative Baptist Church. I admire Bible believing churches of all Christian denominations. I also agree with many of my Bible believing Christian brethren that God designed sexual relations between a man and woman to be kept strictly within the bounds of marriage.

But I also believe that God designed emotional intimacy between a man and a woman to ALSO be kept within the bounds of marriage.

This is what is wrong with Christian dating. Christian dating tries to have a man and woman share many of the intimacies that a husband a wife share together except the physical intimacy of marriage.

The entire concept of Christian dating is flawed and encourages sin. It tells couples a lie. You can have all the emotional intimacy of marriage without the physical intimacy of marriage.

I am not saying that women are not also tempted to have sex too because I know they are. But I am sorry ladies – no matter what you say in most cases a woman’s temptation to have sex before marriage is a tiny fraction of what man’s temptation is – PERIOD.

“Christian dating” is cruel to men

Christian dating meets most of the needs of women in an intimate relationship and meets very few of the needs of a man in an intimate relationship. God never designed relationships between men and women to be half measures like this.

All forms of intimacy that exist in marriage between a man and a woman are ONLY to exist in marriage.

It is amazing to me how many Christian women will admit that a wife denying her husband sex is an act of emotional cruelty toward him but they are utterly blind to the fact that it is equally emotionally cruel to a man for him to be denied physical intimacy with a woman he sees on a regular basis while he dates her or is engaged to her. His needs before marriage are no different than his needs after marriage.

How to stop this emotional cruelty toward men

The answer to stopping this cruelty toward men is to abandon the entire of concept of Christian dating as we know it and return to a Biblical model of courtship and betrothal.

Before the last century this emotional cruelty we call “Christian dating” did not exist. For most of the history of mankind marriages were arranged and while the couple waited to be married they saw very little of one another for this very reason that I describe in the story above.

They knew that it was cruel to have a couple taste of the emotional intimacy that God gives a man and woman without them being able to express that intimacy at THE SAME TIME on a physical level as well.

The Bible gives us two ways to stop this emotional cruelty toward men

The two answers to this problem are for men to flee intimate relationships with women before marriage and only in marriage then pursue both emotional, spiritual and physical intimacy with a woman as God intended it to be.

Flee pre-marital intimate relationships

“But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.” – Romans 13:14 (KJV)

“Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.” – I Corinthians 6:18 (KJV)

There are some things God tells us to fight and other things he tells us to flee. God tells us to flee from fornication – which includes pre-marital sex. God also tells us to “make no provision” – which means don’t put ourselves in a position where we would be tempted to sin.

So as a Christian man – you really should not be entering into an intimate relationship with a woman before you are married and I mean intimate on ANY level. To do so puts you in the position of being tempted to sin and as you grow closer to this woman emotionally you WILL desire her body physically. It is how God designed you.

Remember there are NO half measures with God. The intimate relationship God designed between a man and woman was meant to be an ALL or nothing proposition.

Avoid long engagements

“But if any man think that he behaveth himself uncomely toward his virgin, if she pass the flower of her age, and need so require, let him do what he will, he sinneth not: let them marry.” – I Corinthians 7:36 (KJV)

When you as a man are prepared to take on a wife – meaning you can provide for her as the Lord expects of you, then you need to make the engagement period as short as possible.

In a previous article, “12 ways to transform modern dating into Biblical dating”, I gave several ways that Christians could date in a way that honors God. I listed several ways to “vet” a potential spouse and I made it clear that Christians need to guard their hearts when they are dating.

If we are to truly avoid emotional cruelty toward men and men being placed in highly tempting positions then Christian dating needs to be approached in a very logical and methodical manner.

A man and woman definitely need to “interview” one another and then have their families and friends interview prospective spouses. Once compatibility has been established the wedding should be planned very quickly. During this short engagement period the couple should seek pre-marital counseling with a Pastor to make sure they both fully understand and agree upon the Biblical roles of a husband and wife in marriage.

Answering the Naysayers

But shouldn’t men just learn to practice self-control as they date?

“Self-control” is something the Christian ladies often like to bring up in this discussion of dating and pre-marital sex. Often they will point to these translations of I Corinthians to bolster their claim:

“But I say to the unmarried and to widows that it is good for them if they remain even as I. But if they do not have self-control, let them marry; for it is better to marry than to burn with passion. “– I Corinthians 7:8 (NASB)

“You see – avoiding pre-marital sex is all about self-control, it does not mean we have to give up dating.” This is what advocates of Christian dating tell us today.

But what these same people miss is that God has clearly answered how a man can avoid pre-marital sex with a woman and self-control is not God’s answer:

“Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman. Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband… For I would that all men were even as I myself. But every man hath his proper gift of God, one after this manner, and another after that….” – I Corinthians 7:1-2 & 7 (KJV)

What is God’s answer to a man avoiding pre-marital sex? Marriage. Not dating and practicing self-control, no my friends the answer is marriage.

But what about Jacob and Rachel?

In Genesis chapters 28 and 29 we see the story of Jacob and Rachel. I can’t tell you how many times I have heard this story offered in some Church circles as a story of pre-marital romance.

In this account we see that Jacob’s father Isaac has sent him to journey back to the land of their family to find a wife. He comes upon his Uncle Laban’s land and meets Laban’s daughter Rachel.

The following passages from Genesis 29 are cited as evidences of pre-marital romance between Jacob and Rachel:

“And it came to pass, when Jacob saw Rachel the daughter of Laban his mother’s brother, and the sheep of Laban his mother’s brother, that Jacob went near, and rolled the stone from the well’s mouth, and watered the flock of Laban his mother’s brother. And Jacob kissed Rachel, and lifted up his voice, and wept.” – Genesis 29:10-11 (KJV)

So we are told this was a romantic gesture – love at first sight by Jacob and a passionate embrace between the two of them. What else could this be but romantic?

Well if we look down at verse 13 we see another kiss taking place:

“And it came to pass, when Laban heard the tidings of Jacob his sister’s son, that he ran to meet him, and embraced him, and kissed him, and brought him to his house. And he told Laban all these things.” – Genesis 29:13 (KJV)

Would these same people who say Jacob’s kiss of Rachel in verse 13 was pre-marital romance say that Laban’s embrace and kiss of Jacob was romance too?

The truth is that this was the custom of family members when greeting one another. Rachel was Jacob’s kin – she was his cousin, the daughter of his mother’s brother. What he did was not an act of pre-marital romance, but rather an act of greeting toward family.

But advocates for pre-martial romance in the Bible point to this next part of the story as definitive proof for their position:

“And Laban had two daughters: the name of the elder was Leah, and the name of the younger was Rachel. Leah was tender eyed; but Rachel was beautiful and well favoured.

And Jacob loved Rachel; and said, I will serve thee seven years for Rachel thy younger daughter. And Laban said, it is better that I give her to thee, than that I should give her to another man: abide with me.

And Jacob served seven years for Rachel; and they seemed unto him but a few days, for the love he had to her.” – Genesis 29:16-20 (KJV)

It says Jacob loved Rachel BEFORE they were married. It even says the seven years he worked for Laban to buy Rachel were like “but a few days” because of how much he loved her.

I can hear it now “You see Mr. BGR – if Jonathan in your story had truly loved Sarah he would have had no problem waiting those two meager years to have sex with her – Jacob waited seven years because of his love for Rachel!”

Well if you are thinking that – you would be WRONG.

Jacob did not date Rachel during this time – there is absolutely no Biblical evidence that they spent any intimate time together and in fact the customs of the day would have prohibited any intimate contact or speech between them.

In fact this story illustrates something that infuriates many women. Why did Jacob love Rachel? Was it because she had a great personality? Was it because he got to know her and connected with her emotions and her soul? Nope.

It was because she was beautiful.

“Leah was tender eyed; but Rachel was beautiful and well favoured.” – Genesis 29:17 (KJV)

Yep. Jacob worked seven years to marry a beautiful girl whom he knew little about – only that she was a kin to him and she was hot!

This would be the equivalent of a young 18 year old man today seeing a beautiful woman, finding out she was a Christian woman associated with a good church and then asking her father for her hand in marriage.  Her father tells him he must be able to support her first.  So he goes out gets his degree, starts his career and then buys a house.

Seven years later he returns and finally comes back to marry the woman after having NO intimate contact with her during that time.

The story of Jacob and Rachel DOES NOT illustrate pre-marital romance in the Bible.

But Christ shares an intimate relationship with his betrothed bride, why can’t Christian men do the same?

This is a question that has been raised to me when I have discussed this subject in the past and my opposition to the invention of modern Christian dating.

I agree that the relationship of Christ to his Church is pictured as a groom to be and his betrothed bride. But it is not an identical relationship to marriage here in this world. It is not a physical relationship. It is a spiritual relationship. The relationship between Christ and the Church is emotional and spiritual. The relationship between a husband and wife is emotional, spiritual AND physical.

When a man and woman marry – they become “one flesh”, not “one spirit”, “one mind” or “one heart”. Marriage while being symbolic of a much great relationship between God and his people is a physical and temporary relationship for this world only. That is why many of the components of marriage also exist in the relationship between God and his people, but some of them do not and sex is a big one.

Because of this distinction between physical marriage in this world, and spiritual marriage to come between Christ and his Church it is not Biblically correct to say that men should submit themselves to the emotionally cruel system of Christian dating so that they can demonstrate Christ’s patience in waiting for his bride. There is no comparison between the two.

But what about pre-marital romance?

I think most Christian men if they looked objectively at God’s Word and were honest with themselves about how they feel when they are dating a woman will say that what I speaking from God’s Word is the truth.

But most women will have a very hard time swallowing this pill. The reason is that women crave and love that pre-marital romance time that we now have in our culture. Songs, movies and books are written about it.

I think if women truly stood back and looked at how what brings them so much pleasure “pre-marital romance” can at the same time bring so much emotional cruelty to their prospective husband they might rethink that position.

In a Biblical model of marriage – physical intimacy is what generates emotional intimacy. The two are to exist in marriage together, neither of them are to ever exist apart from marriage.

Three choices that are set before today’s young people

  1. Embrace the “full abstinence” that God’s Word shows us as the example of relationships between men and women prior to marriage.  Don’t put yourself in a position where you are trying to have an emotionally intimate relationship with the opposite sex while trying to abstain from physical relations with them.  This type of “hybrid” relationship is emotionally cruel to men and puts them in position to be very tempted to have sex before marriage.
  2. Continue the current practice of “half measure abstinence” that is taught in most Christian Churches today resulting in emotional cruelty toward men and placing them in a very compromising position where they will be tempted to sin.  Continuing telling young men that they just need to “control themselves” instead of teaching BOTH young men and young women that they need to fully abstain from both emotionally intimate and physically intimate relationships with the opposite sex before marriage.
  3. Disobey God’s Word and leave abstinence behind completely.  Engage in emotional AND physical intimacy before marriage. Many Christian young people are doing just that today.  There are a lot of Christian young people that think they can have that emotionally intimate relationship with the opposite sex without physical intimacy. But not far into their relationship, many young ladies actually realize how cruel it is for a man to be in an emotionally intimate relationship with a woman yet be denied physical intimacy so they give in and give him that physical intimacy.

The sad news is that today the majority of Christian young people are choosing option 3. I know this first hand from talking to many teens and college students (my teens tell me about their friends as well) and I get emails from teens and college students all the time. But even for those Christian teens that are not choosing option 3, most of the rest are going with option 2 and the “half measure abstinence” that is emotionally cruel toward men.  A tiny fraction of teens and college students are choosing Biblical Dating and Courtship over our modern style of dating.

We need to stand up and teach the truth on this issue no matter how politically incorrect it is – especially in our home and Churches.  We need to return to the Biblical model of full abstinence before marriage.

See my previous post “12 ways to transform modern dating into Biblical dating” for more on this subject.

96 thoughts on “How the modern practice of “Christian dating” is cruel to men

  1. LOL BGR, I wanted to leave that comment alone 🙂

    The sexual assault accusation is nuts if they’re in a relationship! I’m not sure how to even describe in words how off her statement was, but that happening in a relationship, is part of the normal emotional/physical intimacy progression when there aren’t firm boundaries. Of course a boyfriend isn’t trying to assault his girlfriend in the normal case of that happening… it’s far more likely that they just got carried away with the passion and emotional intimacy (which again, argues for having emotional and physical boundaries as far as what should and shouldn’t be allowed) and “went too far.”

    Maybe explaining the natural progression of intimacy would help here for people like “December.” James Dobson describes the natural progression very well, and includes the natural sexual progression for couples becoming more and more intimate with each other (emotional intimacy included). I’ll try to find it when I have the time.

    As far as her relationship with her husband, I find it very hard that for 4 years, in those late-teenage years even, there was no sexual temptation or slip ups. Any honest or reasonable person would see what you’re saying and understand that you aren’t prescribing legalism like she said, but pointing out that the way we date is extremely opposite of what was done, and you point out how men in particular, lose in this current day paradigm.

  2. BGR, There is definitely a debate on soft and hard impeccability. I did not make up those terms just to throw into the discussion. Jesus in Heaven could not be tempted, but I believe that that was part of what He gave up (temporarily of course) when He came to earth. He was still able to remain sinless thankfully, but He was able to be tempted. Else what would even be the point of His encounter with Satan in the wilderness? I realize we’re getting off topic here, and i’m not even sure it relates to the main point anymore.

    Also, just because something happened in the Bible does not make it the Biblical model. There is way too much sin documented in the Bible for that to be true. God called Hosea to marry a prostitute…perhaps you should follow that same advice with your own son? Of course I’m not actually advising that, but that was included in the Bible. David is well known for being a man after God’s own heart and I think he can be a great encouragement to others in that example. But I wouldn’t look to him for marriage or parenting advice (not really interested in my children raping and murdering each other). I still hold that Jesus never commanded men and women to not have an emotional relationship prior to marriage. He definitely took the time and effort to state multiple times about sexual purity. You’d think if it was equally important, He would have done the same with emotions. Also, keep in mind, emotional intimacy is so much more than a woman sobbing on a man’s shoulder, or a couple having 4 hour phone calls everyday. The only time Tobias and I had a phone conversation that was more than 5-10 minutes was when we were trying to solve a heated argument. Also, this doesn’t have to turn into a half-way argument. Tobias was completing his master’s degree during our relationship, and it really helped him if i would text him some encouragement or just remind him that I was there for him no matter what. It is an unfortunately common Christian myth that sex is for men and emotions are for women. And that is definitely false. I would say that men in general have a greater sex drive and women have greater emotional needs, but they are not extreme opposites. In fact, one of the mistakes I made early on in my relationship, is assumed that he didn’t have any emotional needs and as a result I missed a few key times when he needed encouragement and I could so easily have been there. To the extent that it is causing a man to stumble, they definitely need to pull back.

    A large part of emotional intimacy is just part of getting to know another person with the intent of marriage. There are essential conversations that must be had. I have previously shared (with my husband’s consent), that he struggled with porn for quite some time. That was an important thing for me to know before we got married. I also sensed that I might struggle with sexual performance at first and shared that with him (later on in our relationship). Both of those conversations did not turn mushy emotional, but they did bind us closer together as a couple. It was a good and necessary thing. I don’t really think a couple needs to pursue emotional intimacy, I think a lot just happens naturally because the people care about each other. If they’re not growing emotionally, that’s generally a sign that these people dont’ care about each other and probably shouldn’t marry. Boundaries must be made of course and to the extent it’s becoming a stumbling block, Jesus is clear about sexual purity and that must be followed. I have tried to be just as clear with my support of that.

    Finally, and I”m not trying to dwell on this too much, but non-consensually touching another person in a sexual way is sexual assault in a legal sense. Obviously it’s not as big an offense as attempted rape or anything like that. And I wouldn’t encourage Sarah to press charges, nor would I if Tobias had slipped up.I do think this is a good opportunity for repentance and forgiveness. But the fact that Jonathan was taking something from Sarah that she can no longer give to him for the first time, is important. If we as conservative Christians refuse to recognize issues like this as legitimate issues, we give ground to feminists and legitimize their existence by allowing them to be the sole occupants of reason on a particular issue. There are people that would love to agree with you in general ,but find that feminists are the only ones making arguments like that and that is a huge problem. I realize that female autonomy and saying no to a man sexually is not a common topic on this blog, but part of why it’s such a big deal that our bodies belong to our spouses is because they don’t belong to any other people. By refusing to recognize that Jonathan’s actions here were a violation against Sarah, you enable radical feminists to have a voice of reason for just a few minutes. That is a few minutes too many.

  3. AnnaMS,

    Your Statement:

    “BGR, There is definitely a debate on soft and hard impeccability. I did not make up those terms just to throw into the discussion. Jesus in Heaven could not be tempted, but I believe that that was part of what He gave up (temporarily of course) when He came to earth. He was still able to remain sinless thankfully, but He was able to be tempted. Else what would even be the point of His encounter with Satan in the wilderness? I realize we’re getting off topic here, and i’m not even sure it relates to the main point anymore.”

    I have explained my position in detail in a previous response on the peccability and impeccability of Christ and I realize we disagree on this – but my position and that of many theologians is that so-called “soft impeccability” is simply just a different degree of peccability. I will leave the Scripture passages in my previous comment to stake my position.

    You statement:

    “Also, just because something happened in the Bible does not make it the Biblical model. There is way too much sin documented in the Bible for that to be true. God called Hosea to marry a prostitute…perhaps you should follow that same advice with your own son?”

    I certainly don’t think that every example in the Bible is one we should follow. If that example is presented in a negative sense than we certainly ought not to follow it. There are also some examples of behavior that were exceptions to God’s rules – and God can make exceptions to his rules. Hosea being commanded to marry a Prostitute was a deviation from God’s norm and it was for God to accomplish his will in showing the symbolism of Israel being an unfaithful wife.

    However we see in the Scriptures that some examples are to followed. The relationships between men and women as presented in the Old Testament are to be followed:

    “For after this manner in the old time the holy women also, who trusted in God, adorned themselves, being in subjection unto their own husbands:
    Even as Sara obeyed Abraham, calling him lord: whose daughters ye are, as long as ye do well, and are not afraid with any amazement.” – I Peter 3:5-6 (KJV)

    Did Sarah and Abraham have a perfect relationship? No. There were many slip ups in their relationship and she was not always submissive to him or to God. However despite Sarah’s failures God saw her relationship as pattern of submissive behavior.

    You know what – you can learn more from a parent who has made mistakes and has children who made mistakes than you can from a parent whose presents themselves as the perfect parent and their children as perfect. David is one of my favorite characters in Scripture because he demonstrates how frail of a human being he was yet God used him so powerfully.

    Your Statement:

    “Finally, and I”m not trying to dwell on this too much, but non-consensually touching another person in a sexual way is sexual assault in a legal sense. Obviously it’s not as big an offense as attempted rape or anything like that. And I wouldn’t encourage Sarah to press charges, nor would I if Tobias had slipped up.I do think this is a good opportunity for repentance and forgiveness. But the fact that Jonathan was taking something from Sarah that she can no longer give to him for the first time, is important.

    If we as conservative Christians refuse to recognize issues like this as legitimate issues, we give ground to feminists and legitimize their existence by allowing them to be the sole occupants of reason on a particular issue. There are people that would love to agree with you in general ,but find that feminists are the only ones making arguments like that and that is a huge problem. I realize that female autonomy and saying no to a man sexually is not a common topic on this blog, but part of why it’s such a big deal that our bodies belong to our spouses is because they don’t belong to any other people. By refusing to recognize that Jonathan’s actions here were a violation against Sarah, you enable radical feminists to have a voice of reason for just a few minutes. That is a few minutes too many.”

    While I agree from the perspective of the American legal system it might be sexual assault without express consent for a man to touch his girlfriend’s boob or butt without express permission – from a practical perspective I utterly reject that idea. Aside from a man raping his girl friend I doubt any court in America would prosecute a boyfriend for touching his girl friends boob or butt because we all reject the utter absurdity of calling that assault.

    But this supposed “sexual assault” and violation of a “female autonomy” would not even be a discussion if we did thing God’s way.

    AnnaMS – even though I fully acknowledge that you reject much of feminist principles, there are some that you do embrace and this is one of them.

    What you and the “sexual assault for a boyfriend touching his girl friends boobs or butt” crowd miss is this:

    Sarah and Jonathan BOTH bear EQUAL culpability before God for Jonathan touching her in this sinful way. God did not mean for a man and woman to be embracing and kissing as they were before marriage. Sarah initiated the physical contact(hand holding and kissing) which naturally allowed embracing and then more sexual touching to occur. Jonathan bears culpability for not establishing clear boundaries in the beginning as well and not removing himself from this tempting situation with her earlier. Eventually at the end of the relationship after touching her twice – he removed himself from the relationship as God would have him to do. Sarah did not understand why and would have continued the relationship despite his two failures of touching her as he should not have.

    In fact I would argue that their earlier embracing and passionate kissing was in fact the first failure the first sexual activity that they both consented to.

    The big problem with Sarah as with so many Christian young women is that they are raised in environments where their parents do not have frank discussions with them about the male sexual nature. Sarah had her mind up in the romantic clouds rather than having her mind firmly based in reality. It never occurred to her to ask Jonathan if he might be struggling. She just assumed that because he said at the beginning of their relationship that he did not believe in sex before marriage that everything would magically be fine. Even after he slipped up the second time she still kidded herself that things would be fine – still in complete and utter denial about the male sexual nature.

    So they both bear equal culpability in this sin that occurred as they clearly made an occasion to fulfill the lusts thereof.

    I agree that a woman should say no to a man’s sexual advances and I teach my daughter to do that. But I also tell her she should NEVER put herself in a position with a man she is dating(courting) where she would have to say NO in the first place. This is the truth that you miss. The sin occurred long before Jonathan ever touched her.

    I will give you the final word on this as you and I simply do not agree on this subject – but I think it has been a fruitful discussion for those watching this and for my teens as I have discussed with them your views and opened the Scriptures with them to show them why I believe based on the Scriptures that your position is based in emotion and not in the Scriptures.

  4. BGR, I have enjoyed and appreciated the opportunity to discuss issues like this and I am happy that they prompted meaningful discussions with your teenagers. No matter where on the issue we may fall, it is important to have these conversations with them because they will one day face similar issues and at least know that the Bible is the place to turn to even if some may interpret it differently than others. Well done.

    I do think that Sarah’s submission in her marriage to Abraham was and still is a good example for women to follow. But that’s entirely different than whether or not they should have emotional intimacy prior to marriage. It’s apples and oranges. I still do not see where in the Bible, God commanded men and women to not embrace, kiss, or share some level of emotional intimacy,etc. prior to marriage. God is very clear about remaining sexually pure and so to the extent that emotional intimacy, or physical expressions of love are hindering that, than they must be sacrificed so that God’s command is obeyed. I do think it is important to recognize that this will look different for each person. I don’t think Sarah’s parents had the obligation to teach her that Jonathan was the typical male because I don’t think he is anymore than I think my husband or my BIL are. Jesus often gives us ultimate commands to follow (like don’t get drunk), but leaves it up to us to determine what that looks like (so He doesn’t say things like only have one cup of wine). Some people are best to abstain from alcohol entirely. Others can enjoy quite a bit before it has any effect on them. Most are somewhere in between. Seeing a person as an individual rather than a gender and letting them make the best choices for themselves i think is key here. What your son, Jonathan, Tobias, and my BIL can handle are likely to be 4 different things although they will probably overlap some.

    I do believe that Sarah is responsible to help Jonathan remain sexually pure. She should wear modest clothes, not touch herself sexually in his presence, not make sexual advances, etc. One of the things that raised my eyebrows when I first read this post is when Sarah told him that later on in the relationship she might ‘let him’ hold her hand or peck her lip. I don’t think that is a good position to put Sarah. Here, she is acting like Abraham and is leading their physical relationship. Jonathan however doesn’t really resemble the Biblical Sarah but is more like a panting lap dog who trots next to its master waiting for any breadcrumbs of affection. It was not a healthy way to start. Tobias led our physical relationship. Which for us meant that he was the one to state that he thought we were at a point where we could kiss. I wasnt’ there yet and that was fine, but the burden was not on me to know what was best for him, where he was likely to struggle, or to take over leadership of the relationship in that way. As he shared things that made him struggle, I could help to avoid putting us in situations like that. Sarah would be wise to do the same if Jonathan were to share that information with her.

    I also doubt that Jonathan would be found guilty (although again, I would not encourage Sarah to prosecute). But I think that is because most people think that a boyfriend’s hand belongs on her boob or butt, that that is normal, and that sexual purity in general is weird. So he would be let off on reasons that do not stem from the Bible.

    It is ultimately Jonathan’s job to keep his hand off Sarah’s boob. Not her job to keep it off. She should definitely not seek to entice him or tease him in that way prior to marriage. But she has likely seen many couples who hugged and kissed without copping a feel and didn’t think it would be an issue. She has no Bible verse to tell her otherwise. A lot of men really can kiss a woman without feeling her up. I see this pretty much whenever I leave the apartment. I think at this point, they should have a conversation (over the phone or in a public place) about boundaries, what makes Jonathan as an individual struggle, and how to move the wedding forward.

    Thanks again for an intelligent and polite conversation. I hope your family has a very Merry Christmas!

  5. AnnaMS
    “I also doubt that Jonathan would be found guilty (although again, I would not encourage Sarah to prosecute). But I think that is because most people think that a boyfriend’s hand belongs on her boob or butt, that that is normal, and that sexual purity in general is weird. So he would be let off on reasons that do not stem from the Bible.

    It is ultimately Jonathan’s job to keep his hand off Sarah’s boob. Not her job to keep it off. She should definitely not seek to entice him or tease him in that way prior to marriage. But she has likely seen many couples who hugged and kissed without copping a feel and didn’t think it would be an issue. She has no Bible verse to tell her otherwise. A lot of men really can kiss a woman without feeling her up. I see this pretty much whenever I leave the apartment. ”

    ^I just don’t see how them slipping up would be seen as sexual assault – you sound like you’re back tracking on what you said before when you state now that you don’t think he’d even be found guilty. Why state it’s that kind of criminal act when you don’t think he’ll be convicted? Do you see a disconnect in your reasoning here? You either believe this example is sexual assault, or it isn’t, there isn’t an in-between. I don’t for one minute think it’s sexual assault in this example, but I’m sure many feminist social justice warrior and rape culture advocates (the same people who think consensual sex is marital rape even if a woman doesn’t feel like it is rape) would think how you do on this. Doesn’t that worry you, that you’re basically saying that Christian men who accidentally slip up are sexual criminals that are assaulting their girlfriends? Or are you backtracking now and saying that it really isn’t the same as sexual assault? It can’t be in between here or you’re throwing men under the bus for a political agenda of rape advocacy.

    Also, why isn’t it Sarah’s job to keep his hand off her? Aren’t women usually the “gatekeepers” during this dating period (that’s what I’ve always heard)? I think it’s responsible for the girlfriend to remove his hand and set that boundary if needed. This gives her self-respect and even shows her boyfriend how valuable she is in that she respects herself more than that. I’ve even heard that sometimes this is used like a test by how men judge a woman. If she allows him to touch her or go further, she is less valuable in his eyes and he immediately loses respect for her, but if she stops him and explains she’s saving that for marriage, it makes him even more drawn to her and captivated by her character.

    To me this is just common sense :/ Yes, Christian men should have self-control and respect their girlfriends, but if they’re kissing passionately, and the emotional connection has progressed along with the physical connection, it’s a sexually tempting situation where the man may be way more tempted to slip up. It actually IS Sarah’s responsibility to understand the male sex drive, how insanely strong it is, and how even good Christian men mess up like that when in that kind of situation and relationship. She may never have been taught all this, but that’s where good parenting comes in to help her understand normal men’s limitations and need to be a gatekeeper guarding her purity.

  6. I now believe that the best way that a couple can act towards each other is like friends rather than like lovers before they get married. What BGR was saying is that the passionate romance should wait until after they are married.

    Our marriage was a product of an online romance. (They say there is no fool like an old fool!) Before I even met my wife in person, I asked her to be my girl friend. We then began to be very romantic towards us each other before we even met each other in person, sending each other figures of hearts via Skype, romantic e-cards, etc.

    Unfortunately, when she first saw me after I got off the plane in Colombia, I wasn’t who she had a picture of when we were romancing online. She was very cold towards me when she greeted me at the airport. Naturally, I was very disappointed in the way that she received me. I even bought an engagement ring to give her before I left for this trip. I told her that I had something to give her, but only if she was interested in pursuing the relationship. She said she was, and I gave her the engagement ring. This was in July of 2009.

    In January of 2010, she made a trip to visit me here in Mexico. (She stayed with my pastor and his wife and they approved of her.) I wanted her to see what it was like here to make sure that she would be happy living here. (She is from the Carribean coast of Colombia and I live in the central Mexican highlands about 6,000 feet above sea level.) Even though it was the coldest day I had ever experienced after living here for over seven years when she visited me, she still agreed to marry me and live here. We got legally married the 30th of April of that year and had the church wedding on May the 2nd.

    In January of last year she announced that she had lost all desire to have sex (mainly because of her age – she is more than eight years younger than me). In August of this year, she told me that she never loved me with romantic love, that she married me because she felt pressured to do so. She said that we should have known each other better before we got married and I agreed with her. We have not had sexual relations since April of last year. She is now in Colombia visiting her family there and plans on coming back here on March the 11th. I will not allow her to come back here to live with me until we are in complete agreement on having conjugal relations on a regular basis (at least once a week) and adhering to the Biblical gender roles BGR has mentioned. I don’t just want to have sex with her, I want a romantic relationship with her since I still love her very much.

    My point is this: We should have never started a romantic relationship online. I blame myself for this. It would have been a lot better to just have had a friendship online. After meeting each other in person for this first time, we should have talked about the Biblical gender roles in marriage, such as BGR wrote in the “Ten Commandments of Christian Marriage” and agreed on them before even planning to get engaged. Her pastor did talk to me and her youngest son and two sisters met me during this first trip to Colombia. They approved of me, so there was no problem with that. However, in addition to starting an online romance, I just assumed that since my future wife was not only a believer, but very active in ministry (which was one of the main things that attracted me to her), that she understood these Biblical gender roles. WRONG!

    So, I believe BGR’s point is this: Passionate romance should wait until the couple gets married. Otherwise at least one of these things could happen: That the man is tempted to go too far in the physical relationship as a product of the passionate romance (as BGR has pointed out); or one of them decides that the other one is really not for them and a breakup ensues, which could leave a deep emotional scar on the one who does not want the breakup. As one youth pastor so aptly pointed out, the American practice of going steady for young people is really practice for divorce. So, it is my experience that anything beyond a friendship before getting married is very dangerous and should be avoided like the plague!

  7. Dragonfly, Thank you for pointing out areas of confusion where I should have been more clear. I do not think Jonathan would have been found guilty for a couple of reasons. 1: it’s likely to turn into a ‘he said she said’ situation. Which is not likely to meet the standard of beyond reasonable doubt. Plenty of people of both genders who likely committed crimes, are found not guilty d/t a lack of proof. It’s an essential part of our legal system to protect innocent people from being found guilty as much as possible. That’s why they are called ‘not guilty’ rather than ‘innocent’. Because the courts recognize that they are not necessarily innocent, just that there is not enough proof to establish definite guilt. A lot of feminists would prefer that men be found guilty in he said she said situations, but you will not find that desire from me. 2: it’s likely that even though Sarah has a definite desire for Jonathan not to touch her boob just like she has for a stranger not to, a jury would think that a stranger’s hand did not belong there while Jonathan’s hand did. I don’t follow the morality of that reasoning, but I recognize that in America which has long lost any sense of sexual purity, many people will.

    You can argue that the law is stupid, but non-consensually touching a person sexually is sexual assault. Now not all instances of sexual assault are equal. If Tobias had put his hand on my boob while we were dating, that would have been much easier to get over than a stranger ambushing me in a parking lot at night and feeling me up. However, legally speaking, they are both instances of sexual assault. Crimes are given a range of punishments for a reason. Had Sarah chosen to press charges and had Jonathan been found guitly, he would have likely received a much lighter punishment than the stranger who ambushed a woman in a parking lot. And I would definitely have agreed with that.

    I also think that just because someone commits a sexual sin does not mean that they have to be labeled as a terrible person for the rest of their life. It is not concerning to me that I am calling Jonathan’s actions what they are, because I would be the first in line to encourage Sarah to forgive him and to encourage him to take actions to keep from doing the same thing again. I would also be encouraging Sarah to see his heart and to not judge his character over one action. I was sexually abused as a child and for me it was much more natural to forgive my abuser and to help him change, than it was for me to try to get a judge to throw the book at him. So when I speak of forgiveness, I really do mean that.

    I have definitely heard that woman are gatekeepers of sexual behavior. I have also heard that premarital sex is okay. I do not believe either of those are true. Do you really think it is a good idea for woman to get the idea into their heads that when and whether sex happens is entirely up to them…is that nor perhaps part of why we hear so many stories of sexual denial? Yes, if Jonathan’s hand ends up on Sarah’s boob, she definitely should remove it. But that is far different than saying that it is her job to keep it off in the first place. Although as I said earlier, she does have the responsibility to act honorably as a Christian woman who respects him. If it is clear that kissing is causing him to stumble, she should refrain from doing so. But you refer to ‘the male sex drive’ as if it is just one thing. Which it is not. It will look different on different people. Sarah had every reason previously to think that people could kiss and not cop a feel. Clearly Jonathan can’t. So now that she has learned that, they should not kiss again until they are married (and even possibly not at the altar as that would get awkward in a hurry). But previously, she had no such reason.

    If a guy felt my boob just to see whether I would be honorable or not in my response….while that seems to be a disconnect because he is the person not acting honorably in that instance. So yeah, he might find that a woman was honorable as she breaks up with him for pulling such a stunt. I’d highly not recommend that. I really don’t see how that would work out while for a guy.

  8. Missionary,

    I think you have described my position well – that a courting couple should keep things at a friendship level and not allow it to move beyond that. Even then there needs to be boundaries set. However I don’t believe men and women should be “close friends”, as in the way a man can be best friends with one his guy friends, until they are married. The dating “friendship” between a man and a woman should be more of a casual friendship where they seek what things they have in common and are interviewing one another as prospective mates.

    But the main point that for all of this is – young people need to guard their hearts and their bodies before marriage. That is Scriptural principle #1 of Biblical dating and courtship.

  9. AnnaMS,

    I am know I said that was my final word with you – but like Al Pacino said in one of the God Father movies “I try to get out and they pull me back in”…LOL.

    Just one quick comment hopefully.

    Your statement:

    “I have definitely heard that woman are gatekeepers of sexual behavior. I have also heard that premarital sex is okay. I do not believe either of those are true. Do you really think it is a good idea for woman to get the idea into their heads that when and whether sex happens is entirely up to them…is that nor perhaps part of why we hear so many stories of sexual denial?”

    I think the mistake you are making is that you are confusing the courtship period with marriage. Before the covenant of marriage has been completed – the man has no power of the woman’s body.

    So before marriage women definitely need to be the gatekeepers. We see this principle demonstrated in two ways – first in the Old Testament we see that women were to guard their virginity as they greatest possession. But we see another principle in the New Testament that the stronger brother(or sister) should help the weaker brother(or sister):

    “We who are strong ought to bear with the failings of the weak and not to please ourselves. Each of us should please our neighbors for their good, to build them up.” – Romans 15:1-2 (KJV)

    Men can be deceived by their sexual natures and women can be deceived by their emotional natures. So since women are generally stronger when it comes to resisting their sexual natures they need to help men during the courtship period. Men in turn during courtship and for the remainder of the marriage are to be the emotional fortress for their wife to depend on.

    But definitely I think the general principle of the stronger brother helping the weaker definitely teaches us that in most relationships the woman should be the gatekeeper UNTIL marriage. Then the gate is destroyed! It is a temporary duty – but a very important one.

  10. Anna – As far as the gatekeeper thing goes, it’s part of being a responsible parent in teaching your children personal boundaries and being able to tell someone “No.” And since it’s more tempting for guys to go further than they really wanted, it is often up to the girls to be this gatekeeper – it’s part of guarding her own purity – which when it comes down to it, only she has control over (unless she’s actually raped). It’s just a simple differences in our sex drives and hormones, although there are women who feel very tempted as well.

    You’re trying to look at it from an equalist’s perspective, but we don’t experience the same amounts of temptation usually due to sex differences. So no, it’s not equal, even though you could argue that it should be, and that men should do everything they can to guard their own purity, as well as their future wife’s as well. It still does not change the FACT that men are often more tempted sexually than women, therefore women will usually end up being the gatekeepers while dating as to how far their boyfriends will be allowed to go.

    Whether it’s the way it “should” be or not, it makes sense that the less tempted person (ie: the woman usually) holds this control over how far the relationship goes, even if the man has a lot of self-control and is guarding his own purity. And you’re right, this could create sex denial problems in women who never learned that once you’re married, you’re no longer the gate keeper, but that just comes from a lack of understanding God’s design for married sexual relations. And that’s not the common case I would think, most women have an understanding (even if they refuse to follow it) that God’s rules are “no sex before marriage, after marriage, don’t deprive each other.”

    Maybe you’re not understanding it because you were abused and had your own personal and sexual boundaries violated. But being in a relationship and one that is sexually passionate (that felt sexual tension doesn’t require there to be any sexual touching… it can just be kissing or hugging for guys and voila – sexual tension is built up heavy for them) and having a boyfriend mess up due to lack of boundaries, is totally different from a real sexual assault and should never be compared to it. If we have a daughter, I will DEFINITELY teach her that it is her responsibility to make sure that she does everything within her power (saying no, removing someone’s hand, etc.) to not be touched inappropriately when she’s dating teenage guys. Obviously if he escalates it to real sexual assault (after it’s been clearly noted she doesn’t want to be touched – after she’s no), or rape, there is sometimes little a female can do. But baring real sexual assault or rape, it is responsible to teach a daughter to feel comfortable setting boundaries, removing a man’s hand, or telling him flat out “no.” I don’t understand how you can say that teaching a girl to behave responsibly like this can lead to her having sexual denial problems in her marriage. To me, it’s just teaching your children to have good personal and sexual boundaries, and be realistic in understanding the male sex drive and sexually tense situations where she’d have to say no at all.

    When you water down the true meaning of sexual assault by conflating it with a good Christian man or woman already in a tempting situation and messing up, I think you’re doing a disservice to people who have actually really been assaulted sexually. It is not at all the same thing. Just like having sex with your husband even when you don’t necessarily feel like it is not at all rape.

  11. BGR, there is no doubt in my mind that we must watch how close of a friendship that we have with our prospective mates. It could very easily turn into a very romantic relationship during the courting period.

  12. Also…

    It really does bother me, you know… as mother to two amazing boys… to think that Christian women will accuse them of sexual assault when they the girl is passionately kissing them and hugging them and creating an environment of extreme sexual tension on her part – and tension that gets worse the closer they are emotionally. It really bothers me that women don’t even seem to SEE how cruel this is to men, and how potentially dangerous it is to see it as “sexual assault.” Nevermind that the example in BGR’s post doesn’t even remotely fall into the legal definition of sexual assault! Sexual assault is a violent crime, here is a link for at least my state’s definition on it: http://www.twu.edu/counseling/defining-sexual-assault.asp

    But you know, it’s been good to see that there are women who think that a Christian man falling into temptation with his girlfriend is sexual assault, because now I can talk to my husband about it and later on we can warn our boys to never get into that kind of situation where they could be accused of false assault or rape claims. But this is a big part of why men are forgoing dating and women altogether!! Because they hate how much power women have in just being able to claim something horrible happened to them, and having everyone believe the man is at fault just because the claim was made. Labeling a Christian man who messed up with his girlfriend and touched her in a moment of passion when they were kissing as a sexual criminal (implying he used violence or threat of violence or took advantage of her when she was unconscious), is dangerous to encourage. It’s simply false, just like regret “rape” is false.

    And AnnaMS… do not think for one second that just because a young man or teenage boy would not be convicted for that “crime” doesn’t mean it cannot ruin his life by encouraging a young woman to view a slip up as a real sexual assault and “criminal episode” which is how it is referred to legally. The boyfriend is not a criminal, making him out to be by insisting this is sexual assault is false and viewing it this way can have serious consequences. False rape claims or sexual assault claims (which is what yours would be) can completely ruin a good man’s future in college (they may kick him out or keep him from graduating once he’s accused), future jobs may be affected if it becomes one of those publicized cases, and general reputation among his friends, coworkers, and family. I think what you’re encouraging here is dangerous and morally wrong, and making it harder and crueler for men in an already difficult, feminized society. Hopefully you can see how damaging that could be, even if you personally wouldn’t press charges, that doesn’t mean that other women wouldn’t, or that an ex-girlfriend wouldn’t try to make false sexual assault claims ruining his reputation, future job possibilities, and labeling him as a sexual pervert. Now, as well, the girl who would even make that ridiculous claim could be sued by the young man in return for defamation of character and slander. I’ve seen at least one case where it was a false rape claim that after it ruining the young man’s life, he was able to turn around and sue the woman, the university that kicked him out or suspended him, and I think even win a sum of money from the woman who made the false claim. So encouraging women to be delusional and think their boyfriends are actutally “assaulting” them could have negative effects for the women in the long-run as well. If it became a publicized case (which these things tend to do), she could be publicly branded as someone who thinks sexual touching and minor mess-ups between Christians are sexual violence.

    I had forgotten (!!), but I actually did date a good, wonderful man that did mess up with me and when we were kissing, moved his hand to my rear. This is a good, good man – and we were kissing probably more than we should have been (this was in high school, I was 17), but I would in NO way label his behavior as sexual assault. And it doesn’t even remotely fit the legal definition. Once I moved his hand, he never tried again. I can’t imagine how messed up mentally I would be if I had internalized that what happened was sexual assault – that I was a “victim” of a sex crime – it would change the whole way I viewed the world and myself. I think women who would believe that would have serious mental issues after awhile, it’s so far from truth and reason. Real sexual assault would be him continuing to touch me inappropriately after I’ve moved his hand, told him “no,” forcing me or threatening, and violating that personal boundary, not slipping up in a moment of passionate making out.

    This is serious stuff that we’re talking about, and “rape culture” advocates would run with it to the detriment of good, sincere men who have no malicious intentions. Just some food for thought, maybe you’ll change your mind sometime regarding the real implications of what sexual assault really is.

  13. I think we might have been talking about different things when we used the term ‘gatekeeping’. I have always heard that to mean that women have the sole power and responsibility to be sexually pure (which God does not consider legitimate so we would be wise to do the same), and that men will naturally try to chip away at that wall all day and women must stand their ground. I remember my older sister (who I respect in many ways and looked to as an example in my own relationship) telling me, back when I was single, that it was a woman’s job to set the boundaries in the relationship prior to marriage, that the man would constantly be testing them, and that it was her job to stand firm. Basically, it was his job not to rape her or force other issues (like a hand on the boob), but everything else was her responsibility. I didn’t argue with her (even though what she was describing was not at all what I would have expected from her own husband), but that sounded very screwy to me. Other than the fact that we’re basically reducing men to animals who have absolutely no ability to exercise self-control at all, it sounded exhausting to constantly be having to playfully swat someone’s hand away or turn down yet another request for sex. Not to mention I wasn’t looking to essentially temporarily parent a whinny toddler as part of my attempts to find a good husband. What she was describing was not temptation or even the occasional slip-up. Based on the responses I got, that does not look like what either of you are advocating and I appreciate and respect that. If by gatekeeping you mean that a woman has an obligation to turn down the occasional slip-up, should remove his hand from a sexual body part, and should do all in her power to remove temptation (dressing modestly, avoiding triggers, and not making her own advances are all things I have mentioned previously), than I have absolutely no problem with that and I think we should teach our daughters that. I do think both people have a responsiblility here. Had I attempted to seduce Tobias prior to marriage, he would have had the responsibility to turn me down. His sex drive would not have been an excuse to God as to why it wouldn’t have been sin if he slipped up. Of course, most women will have it easier so they are less likely to slip up and should take that role seriously. A good woman will want to be a help to her man. What that help looks like will be different for each couple (Sarah here has a harder burden than I did but is part of what she must deal with if she wants to marry Jonathan).

  14. On the issue of sexual assault, there is a difference between assault and assault with a deadly weapon. Violence is definitely considered a factor in the latter and it receives a much stiffer sentence (as it should). Also, as I said previously, I would have encouraged Sarah to view Jonathan as a whole person with Godly character rather than as a ‘criminal’. That’s what I did to the man who was likely a year or so younger than Jonathan (he was a trusted family friend and a Christian) who sexually abused me multiple times when I was 8-12 (this was not an example of a boyfriend who accidentally took things too far once as you may have incorrectly assumed…hard to tell from that part of your comment). If I can see the difference as a hurting and confused pre-teen, than I would definitely expect Sarah to. Yes, some girls make false rape accusations and will claim that other things that did not happen, did. Refusing to recognize that something did actually happen is not the answer to that problem. It is the opposite extreme.

    Please believe me when I say that I know that it does not take a guilty verdict to hurt a man. I realize you have the emotion of being a mother to two boys. For me, I can say that i do not want my husband to face this problem, that his family has a strong Y chromosome genetic link (very likely most if not all of our children will be boys and we already are calling this baby by the name we have chosen for our first son, so I do consider myself to be a mother of a son in some sense), and perhaps most importantly, have seen this happen to my own brother. He was accused of sexual abuse by a woman who obviously had emotional and psych issues and refused to deal with them. He took a polygraph and passed. He gave that to the authorities and told them that if they wanted to question him or even arrest him, that he would be glad to meet them at the police station and would turn himself in. They refused that (even though he had no criminal record), and instead showed up at his work on the Friday afternoon of a Columbus Day weekend to arrest him (with the fairly obvious motivation that he would spend the weekend and the Monday in jail before a magistrate would hear his case and release him). He was released Tuesday morning on bail, went through the court system, and was found not guilty. He did lose his job (pretty sure on the spot but my memory there is a tad fuzzy). I also watched my parents who had worked so hard to get out of debt and make it work as a one-paycheck, large family, get back in debt so he could afford a good lawyer. Believe me this made me angrier than any story from a Red Pill stranger will make you. Even though Jonathan’s actions actually did happen (unlike my brother), I probably wouldn’t even tell her that was the case and I definitely wouldn’t encourage her to share it with anybody. Some things can be dealt with privately. Even issues much much bigger than what happened with Jonathan and Sarah. Also, this unfairness towards men is a HUGE issue for my husband (even though he has not dealt with it personally). Believe me, he would not have married me if he thought I was callous about it and definitely not if he thought I supported it.

    This is not at all the same thing as encouraging someone to make false rape charges, or that changing your mind after sex removes the previously given consent (either in or not in marriage). If you read my comments at all (which I am becoming more and more suspicious is not the case d/t the number of things I say multiple times that you still miss), you will know that I do not advocate for either of those things. I respect the protective nature of a mother, but I think that your immersion in Red Pill blogs may be blinding you to reality a little bit here. Earlier, you couldn’t even tell the difference between thinking someone would be found not-guilty, and thinking that someone was in fact not-guilty. I know you are smarter than that. I do not see a mass wave of MGTOW (although I do see an unusually large percentage of such commenters on the Red Pill blogs I do read so I can see why that would mess with your perceptions a bit). Every man I know is either married, trying to get married, or has stated a desire in the future (like the freshmen I talked to at school who were wisely waiting a few years). There are definitely some who see divorce courts and crazy women as a threat and stay away, but the ones that didn’t, have no regrets. There are crazy people on both sides and we can either live in fear of them or use that information wisely to ensure we make a good choice in marriage. I have heard of women who refused to pursue relationships or marriage because they couldn’t get over their fear of men d/t previous rape. God’s word has not changed here. He is the one that said that he who finds a wife finds a good thing. If some men want to deny themselves of that because they fear they aren’t able to make a smart choice in a spouse, that is their own decision.

  15. AnnaMS “That’s what I did to the man who was likely a year or so younger than Jonathan (he was a trusted family friend and a Christian) who sexually abused me multiple times when I was 8-12 (this was not an example of a boyfriend who accidentally took things too far once as you may have incorrectly assumed…hard to tell from that part of your comment).”

    I didn’t at all think your experience was with a boyfriend like in BGR’s example. But rather that a woman thinking that an experience like the one in BGR’s example was sexual assault would have further mental issues from being encouraged to see it that way, and a very delusional view of the world from viewing herself as a victim of a sex crime when it clearly wasn’t. This may be how the radical feminists become so unreasonable, unintelligent, and delusional about rape, sex, and men… by viewing themselves as perpetual victims in situations where they were not a victim, but just used poor judgment, poor boundaries (not understanding they could say no or giving in even when they didn’t want to), or faulty expectations (expecting a boyfriend to never slip up in passionate moments).

    I’m so sorry that your experience of real abuse happened to you, and someone that was a trusted family friend – I can’t even imagine how that would affect me. Your experience sounds like true sexual assault obviously – which even you point out is not at all the same thing as a boyfriend slipping up when they’re passionately kissing and in a tempting situation. So you seem to think there is a huge difference, unless I’m wrong. You really were assaulted sexually (which does not have to be with a weapon – that is called “aggravated assault”). If you click on the link it may help you to understand the different definitions of what you’re accusing the man in the example of.

    Sexual assault – is literally involving one of the orifices being forced physically or through threats to be penetrated – and could involve being done when the women/man/child is asleep/mentally unable to say no or account for themselves (retarded), etc. It is a “violent crime,” and not simply a touch that is unwanted like you’re trying to make it out to be, at least, not in my state’s definition.

    Assault contact – this is what my husband says you’re possibly confusing it with. But he said that even this would only be true if the boyfriend CONTINUED to force the touching after she’d brushed his hand away. A boyfriend touching in a moment of passion is not assault, period. Calling it that is morally and ethically wrong for you to do so 😦

    I do understand, and have read that you don’t condone false rape claims, etc. but in this post you **are** encouraging women to view this example as sexual assault (which again, is not the case at all). This is no better than encouraging regret rape or false rape claims and is equally as dangerous, even if you don’t agree with those individually. By labeling this example as sexual assault, you are encouraging them to believe they are victims of a violently forced/threatened sex crime when their boyfriends slip up in passionate moments and touch their girlfriends. This is encouraging them to have a very messed up view of relationships, life, themselves, and men in general that could harm young women’s future – not to mention the harm it could inflict on men.

    And no I haven’t read all your comments in past threads, BGR’s threads and posts get lots of comments sometimes, and I’m very busy with two small children to watch over and house cleaning/cooking, and recently, I’ve been insanely busy with Christmasy things – buying presents, baking cookies, decorating cookies, trying to keep the baby out of stuff which is crazy difficult 🙂 so sorry if I’ve missed every word or insinuated stance you take on his blog. I try to prioritize my life and responsibilities so that everything that’s important gets done and done well, and online commenting and even blogging is a last priority on my list of things to do – which means it’s not that important to me aside from actually ministering to people who come to my blog. I don’t get into it with just anyone I disagree with, I sometimes read over briefly a comment like December’s and think “wow, that’s nuts” but don’t delve into it because I honestly don’t want to open that can of worms with someone (I perceive) to be that delusional when I could be baking cookies and decorating them with my 5 year old… or when I have dishes to do and a huge pot of soup to make, or an infant to watch 🙂 I know I can’t change your mind or “December’s” mind, all I can do (if I have time) is to try to encourage people to see truth, point out truth, and not apologize for it…. I make my comments mostly for the lurkers to read and hopefully help them see where there are faulty beliefs being propagated, and to have another opinion when it comes to things I see as morally wrong – like your false sexual assault claims on good Christian men – sometimes it’s worth it to me to call it out for the sake of young girls or guys reading this, so that they will know Truth and not fall into believing Satan’s lies that steal, kill, and destroy.

  16. This will be my last response d/t the upcoming holidays. I have no desire to argue legal semantics as that is not my area of expertise. I got my information from a friend in law school. He said it was specific for our state. There is one general sexual assault law with several branches under it. The most specific way to describe what Jonathan did would be non-consensual fondling. And this goes further than just that Sarah didn’t give express permission at that time as she had said previously she wanted to save that for marriage. This is an act that is subject to arrest and legal prosecution. I’m not going to post a bunch of news links onto this site with whatever photos, ads, and language may be used cuz i’m not sure that is respectful to Larry, but just google ‘man arrested for fondling’ and see what comes up. It is a disservice to men to tell them it is their girlfriend’s fault. That reasoning only works until the handcuffs click behind them. You can argue that it shouldn’t be but I am not the person to have that discussion with as I have no power at all in that regard. I have already said I would advise Sarah not to press charges and to see Jonathan as a Godly man who slipped up. Obviously follow up actions must be taken to prevent this from happening again, but that does not require a legal setting.

    I do think there is a difference between a boyfriend doing it and a stranger doing it, but that does not mean that both actions are not illegal. It is likely easier to forgive a boyfriend than a stranger, but it also means that the betrayal was that much worse d/t the trust and relationship with the boyfriend that is not the case with the stranger. That works both ways. Ultimately, I’d advise forgiveness. But then I’m not a really lawsuit-happy person in general. I get felt up all the time at work by various patients and I just roll my eyes and move on. But that is a choice that I make for myself. We have no business making that choice for other people. We definitely should not try to pretend it is not their choice to make.

    I do think you have a very good point though about how feminists constantly have a need to always be a victim. I don’t think that means that people who actually are shouldn’t be recognized. But even back when I was a child, I was constantly pressured to see myself as a helpless victim that would be scarred for life. The worst offender was my childhood therapist (who my parents luckily made sure was a short-term thing), so I think that says something about how off the deep end we have gone in that direction. When women refuse to be victims, that is when they are cast aside like used kleenex. I saw it happen to me on a smaller scale. But the example of ‘Roe’ in Roe vs. Wade speaks volumes. When she changed her mind, her previous lawyers and ‘champions’ refused to even recognize her in a public setting. Many people do not even know that she had a change of heart because her desires and wishes were only important when they lined up with the feminist agenda.

    I am sure you do not read every word of my comments nor do I read every word of your’s. I definitely would not have you take time away from your home and family as those are your God-given priorities in life (second only to Him). Just a couple times now I’ve felt that you made assumptions about me that aren’t really fair to make about someone that you don’t really know. It is more frustrating when I have in fact said the opposite in various comments that you didn’t read, but I try to refrain from making assumptions about people, and when I do I try to state up front that that is an assumption. I could be seeing something that isn’t there, it’s just bugged me a few times.

    Thank you for sharing your concerns and your heart for the Lord. I pray he blesses your family richly and that this is a very Merry Christmas for you guys.

  17. “But even back when I was a child, I was constantly pressured to see myself as a helpless victim that would be scarred for life. The worst offender was my childhood therapist (who my parents luckily made sure was a short-term thing), so I think that says something about how off the deep end we have gone in that direction. When women refuse to be victims, that is when they are cast aside like used kleenex. I saw it happen to me on a smaller scale. But the example of ‘Roe’ in Roe vs. Wade speaks volumes. When she changed her mind, her previous lawyers and ‘champions’ refused to even recognize her in a public setting. Many people do not even know that she had a change of heart because her desires and wishes were only important when they lined up with the feminist agenda.”

    That is a very very good point, Anna.
    I’ve perused the posts and didn’t see any mention of mens rea. It means, essentially “guilty mind” aka criminal intent.
    That’s a pretty fundamental concept in the types of cases we’re speaking of here. For rough instance, a boyfriend locked in an embrace with his girlfriend might be under the impression that she wouldn’t mind if he grabbed her breast or bottom. He might think she not only wouldn’t mind, but wants him to do so (people do not always say what they mean, particularly on the subject of romance). At the point a “reasonable person” (the reasonable person standard is a real thing) would understand his attentions are unwanted if he pursues this course of action he does have criminal intent but until that is the case, there is no criminal intent. Criminal intent is an important element in these types of prosecutions.

  18. Right Liz, and I believe Anna & December were calling his action “sexual assault” from the first time he touches her – this is what I think is just morally wrong and dangerous for people to think. As you said, there is no reasonable inclination that the boyfriend has criminal intent, and yet, she is assigning him this criminal intent by calling it “sexual assault.”

  19. Yes, criminal intent is a necessary component to the assault charge.
    Just saying ‘no’ isn’t necessarily enough either. It’s the reasonable person standard.
    For example, Mike is pretty persistent with sex. If every time I swatted him away or said no he’d back off, I’d actually be pretty disappointed. His persistence is (often, not always…maybe one time out of three, keep in mind we have sex a LOT) a pretty integral part of my feeling desired.

  20. Getting sucked back in real quick to make a clarification. I think that in marriage (what Liz is describing), a baseline consent is given. That is included in most marriage vows. So of course, that doesn’t mean it will happen every single time, but Liz has already consented for her husband to initiate sex with her. Therefore, his attempting to get intimate, or even attempting multiple times, is not an issue. And I agree, that feeling of being desired definitely helps. I am the same way. 🙂

    The difference is that in Sarah and Jonathan’s relationship, there is no baseline consent given. In fact, Sarah has told him that she wants to wait on that stuff. Maybe she was secretly kidding, but that is what she said. A woman should know that if she wants a man to touch her she needs to give consent. Having it not be that way might be common (as premarital sex is common), but it does a disservice to us when we accept it as good practice. Not only that, but the time he touched her boob was the second occurrence so even if he thought she wasn’t serious about waiting, at that point he should know she was. Nowhere in this story, is his not knowing whether or not she is okay with it, a factor. Now as I said previously, a judge might consider being in a dating relationship to be baseline consent for boob fondling, but that is against God’s requirements for purity.

    Not quite sure if I’m understanding what Liz meant when she referred to ‘guilty mind’ as separate from criminal intent, but there have been cases where men were arrested simply for acting out of lust. I read a story on Drudge about a man who was arrested for touching a woman’s butt and his rationale was “her booty looked so good i had to touch it” (as close to a direct quote as I can remember). He was not violent. He was arrested. I didn’t follow the story to it’s conclusion but as Dragon Fly pointed out, a simple accusation is enough. Men can and have been arrested for this sort of thing, like it or not. People can argue with me and say I’m immoral for pointing that out, but it remains a simple fact. Being real and warning men here seems to be more beneficial to them than assuring them that their girlfriend wasn’t gate-keeping well enough.

  21. I agree marriage is indicative of “baseline” consent Anna. It wasn’t a perfect example, just intended for illustrative purposes.

    “Not quite sure if I’m understanding what Liz meant when she referred to ‘guilty mind’ as separate from criminal intent, but there have been cases where men were arrested simply for acting out of lust. I read a story on Drudge about a man who was arrested for touching a woman’s butt and his rationale was “her booty looked so good i had to touch it” (as close to a direct quote as I can remember). He was not violent. He was arrested.”

    By the reasonable person standard, just going by the information above, this person failed the mens rea test. Unless this was a woman he knew well and had reason to believe she wanted him to touch her bottom, reaching out and touching it “because it looked good” doesn’t pass the mens rea test. I think by contrast Jonathan did in this case.

  22. Jonathan passed the test because……….Sarah had expressly told him that they would not be engaging in activity before marriage and had been upset when he touched her butt shortly before that? Doubt it. Even Larry never claimed that Jonathan didn’t know that Sarah didn’t want his hand on her boob. Jonathan certainly never claimed confusion after the fact. I’m sure there are situations where what you are talking about would apply, but this doesn’t seem like one of them. Are we perhaps trying too hard to avoid putting blame on a man simply because some women (mostly but perhaps not exclusively feminists) put too much blame on men for other things? This kinda smells like that.

  23. There is no biblical mandate to date this way. There is only a biblical mandate not to engage is premarital sex. Insisting this model of dating is biblically mandated is wrong.

    They agreed in the beginning not to engage in that type of physical intimacy. There was no agreement about emotional intimacy. So Jonathan knew she didn’t want to be touched liked that. The goalpost wasn’t moved, nothing changed. So touching someone in a sexual manner that had been previously discussed as not acceptable is wrong.

  24. I agree that Jonathan touching her in that manner was wrong.

    However, as BGR has said, our system of dating and romance is also wrong, because it puts the man in the path of too much temptation to do this. A pastor that I once had in Houston said this: “Instead of seeing how close to sin we can get and not sin, we need to get as far away from it as possible!”

  25. You may feel it’s wrong. And that’s your conviction. Give me a passage in the bible that specifically says what courtship should look like.

  26. I agree too, that it’s wrong to be touching like that in a relationship before marriage, but it stems from the whole situation being set up to fail this way. Too emotionally close eventually progresses to too physically close, but I adamantly do not equate his touch as being labeled sexual assault. That technique (labeling something minor as something exaggerated and criminal) is used by social justice warriors, liberals, and feminists, and usually not by reasonable people who are able to assess a situation.

  27. Hi December,

    The Book of Ruth gives an example of a relationship between Ruth and Boaz that resulted in marriage. Note that there was no passionate romance between them before they got married. Genesis 24 is another account of how God brought a couple together without a passionate romance beforehand. In both instances, family members were involved in the marriage decision. How often does that happen today? What Scriptures can you give us to justify a couple having a passionate romance before getting married?

    1st Cor. 6:18 tells us to flee from fornication. In 2nd Tim. 2:22 Paul tells Timothy to flee from youthful lusts. Could a passionate romantic relationship before marriage be classified as a youthful lust? If so, couldn’t it lead to fornication? BGR has proved that it could well lead to fornication and current statistics among our so-called Christian youth who live together before they get married prove that he is right!

    What is your understanding of the relationship that a man and a woman should have before they marry each other? What are the Scriptures to back up your position?

  28. December,

    You and I both know the Bible does not speak specifically to every situation. For instance there is no passage in Scripture saying a man can’t beat his wife. But there are passages that tell a master he cannot physically abuse his slave and we know a wife had more rights than a slave so we can say without stretching the Biblical truth that a man cannot physically abuse his wife.

    My point is the Bible does not speak specifically to every situation in life – but it does give us general principles of holy living that can be applied to every situation in life.

    The Bible may not give specific rules of courtship but it does give some VERY important principles regarding temptation:

    Principle #1 – Do not purposefully put yourself in a situation where you know you will be tempted to sin

    “But put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ, and make not provision for the flesh, to fulfil the lusts thereof.” – Romans 13:14 (KJV)

    Principle #2 – If you are stronger in a certain area than others, do NOT exercise your freedom in a way that causes a brother who is weaker in that area to be tempted and stumble.

    “We then that are strong ought to bear the infirmities of the weak, and not to please ourselves. Let every one of us please his neighbour for his good to edification.” – Romans 15:1-2 (KJV)

    “But take heed lest by any means this liberty of yours become a stumblingblock to them that are weak.” – I Corinthians 8:9 (KJV)

    Principle #3 Guard you heart – do not be controlled by your emotions
    “Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life.” Proverbs 4:23 (KJV)
    “Above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it.” Proverbs 4:23 (NIV)

    Principle #4 – The answer to avoiding premarital sex is NOT self control, it is marriage

    “Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.” – I Corinthians 7:2 (KJV)

    So the first two principles are you should never put yourself purposefully in a position where you will be tempted to sin and you should bear with and understand the weaknesses of your brother and not put them in a position where they will be tempted to sin – even if that exact situation might not cause you to be tempted to sin.

    The third principle of guarding your heart refers to your emotions – knowing that your emotions can lead you into sin is something that every Christian must understand.

    God does not say “Young men while you are having an emotionally intimate relationship with her a woman you are not married to, just use self control so you won’t be tempted to have sex with her before you are married”. NO! God says the answer to avoiding premarital sex is MARRIAGE!.

    The fact is today young women want pre-marital romance like it is a drug. It is a high for them. As Dragonfly as pointed out on several occasions – most women know the sexual tension is there and THEY LOVE IT! They love how crazy it makes the guy and how he will DO ANYTHING for them during that period. In fact it makes a man act irrationally in many cases and women love this. But is this what God intended? Absolutely not. A man should be guarding his heart and not placing himself in this situation to begin with.

    This is why in many ways this post was more directed to men than to women. If young men establish these boundaries with themselves and with women they will court they can avoid being tempted to sin.

    And lets not forget what tempted to means. It has two meanings or two levels – the first is just to be tested(that is how Christ was tempted). The second kind of temptation is ACTUALLY sinful in and of itself. It is sinful thoughts – covetous thoughts “Maybe I could get away with just this or that” – the very thoughts themselves are sin even if a person never acts on them.

    So December you are right there is no specific passage that says what courtship should look like. However there are several principles of Scripture that I have shown above that when applied to courtship(as they should be to every other area of our lives) tells us very much what courtship should look like.

  29. December,

    One other thing I forgot to mention about temptation.

    Why are men tempted to have sex with women whom they have close intimate relationships with?

    “Let her be as the loving hind and pleasant roe; let her breasts satisfy thee at all times; and be thou ravished always with her love.” – Proverbs 5:19 (KJV)

    It is because they are programmed by God himself to desire this from women!

    Why are we so arrogant today that we think we can override God’s programming?

    Many men filled with pride tempt themselves in these situations but they would do well to heed the Scriptures warning:

    “Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.” – I Corinthians 10:12 (KJV)

  30. When choosing a marriage partner I think people should know the other persons character. Are they truly a Christian? What do they expect out of their spouse (does your husband expect you to stay home or work? What does he think biblical submission looks like? How does he think biblical discipline looks like? How does he feel about birth control? Etc). I expect both people to be honest and honest with themselves on whether they can live with that. Sometimes these are straightforward (I’m a baptist and don’t know that I could ever be spiritually led by someone of reformed faith or a catholic because the principles are so different I don’t think I could actually believe some of the doctrinal differences). Other things take time to learn. Are they quick to anger? Do they encompass the fruits of the spirit? And lastly, are they actually attracted to each other?

    However people figure that out is up to them. I was, and am not, convicted that dating is wrong. If someone reads this, prays, and feels convicted to court this way great they should do that.

    Sure Ruth is a great example of how a godly woman can gain a godly husband. But I’m not going to encourage my daughter to go sleep at a guys feet. My point being that there are different ways to learn one another’s character

  31. Some men desire sex with women they find attractive and aren’t emotionally intimate with. I never suggested that I think we can override how God programmed the sexes. Also, I added, that emotional intimacy takes time. I would not consider dating to produce the emotional intimacy of marriage (at least it didn’t for me).

  32. There were a lot points and I probably will miss some because I’m on my phone. I agree with all your points. Here’s an example of what I’m trying to say. You point out the bible doesn’t say don’t beat your wife but commands masters not to beat their slaves. There are couple who feel convicted and participate in domestic discipline. Nowhere in the bible does it say spank your wife to discipline her, but it does say discipline. I feel it’s wrong for those who practice domestic disciplline to say inherently that’s what the bible says husbands should do (and I’ve read where people give bible verses to back up that claim )

  33. Hi December,

    I agree that a couple should know each other’s positions on the issues that you mentioned before they get married. That’s why i mentioned in another post that I think it would be a good idea for the couple to be in agreement on “The Ten Commandments of Christian Marriage” before they get married.

    But what would happen if they started a romantic relationship with each other before they got married? Couldn’t that cloud their judgment on these issues?

    No, I wouldn’t want my daughter sleeping at the feet of her boy friend either (she has now been married for over 20 years). However, my point in both of these stories is that these couples did not base their decision to marry each other on a romantic relationship, like the vast majority of Christians today in the western world do.

    The whole point of BGR’s posts is to discourage men from putting themselves in a position where they are tempted to fall into fornication before they get married. Yes, it is necessary to teach your children not to have sex before they get married. However, thinking that your children can have a passionate romance and just use self control to keep from fornicating is not realistic, nor is it Biblical.

  34. I guess maybe where I’m not completely understanding your point (or bgr). Is in the passionate relationship. I guess I feel you can date and not be passionate. Maybe that’s because I dated my husband when we were teenagers and my parents limited how often we could see each other. We weren’t allowed to go to any part of the house by ourselves but we were allowed on dates by ourselves. So I’m not sure how adults date and what feelings happen when you’re actually mature.

  35. Hi December,

    I see the danger in a couple going on dates by themselves where they are completely alone. I believe that they should always be in a public setting to avoid temptation. This is especially true of teenagers!

    As BGR has said numerous times, the modern concept of dating, which of course includes romance, causes a lot of temptation. Perhaps the woman is not tempted to sin, but as BGR has pointed out, the man is! The Bible is very clear about avoiding temptation!

    Another great problem with starting a romantic relationship before getting married is if the couple breaks up. As I mentioned in another post, this could leave a deep emotional scar on the one who doesn’t want the breakup. Here in the city where I live in Mexico, a fifteen year old boy committed suicide by hanging himself when his girl friend broke up with him. How many worldly songs have you heard where the person singing says that they cannot live without their girl friend or boy friend? Is this God’s plan for those who want to get married? I think not!

  36. I’m not going to say anything about the modern world as our morals mean nothing to them. So maybe this isn’t something I understand as I am a female but emotional intimacy didn’t really happen until after sex ( lots of oxytocin, obviously wasn’t an accident). But Again the point I’m making is that if you feel it’s wrong for teenagers to be alone, fine it’s your conviction. All I’m saying is that we shouldn’t be saying “my personal conviction applies to everyone.”

  37. December,

    Your Statement:

    “When choosing a marriage partner I think people should know the other persons character. Are they truly a Christian? What do they expect out of their spouse (does your husband expect you to stay home or work? What does he think biblical submission looks like? How does he think biblical discipline looks like? How does he feel about birth control? Etc). I expect both people to be honest and honest with themselves on whether they can live with that. Sometimes these are straightforward (I’m a baptist and don’t know that I could ever be spiritually led by someone of reformed faith or a catholic because the principles are so different I don’t think I could actually believe some of the doctrinal differences). Other things take time to learn. Are they quick to anger? Do they encompass the fruits of the spirit? And lastly, are they actually attracted to each other?”

    December I pretty much agree with most of the things you have mentioned above in looking for the right spouse. I covered these in https://biblicalgenderroles.com/2015/12/12/12-ways-to-transform-modern-dating-into-biblical-dating/

    By the way I am as Baptist as they come – my background for most of my life growing up was Independent Fundamental Baptist and I still attend a conservative Baptist Church. So I know exactly where you are coming from in that regard.

    I can also appreciate your hesitancy about one person making their personal conviction have to apply to everyone else. In the Baptist churches they are famous for saying things like “you should not ever drink one drop of alcohol, else you might get drunk” and they have a million other rules about things like that.

    I do think you probably sincerely think that I and others here who agree with me are doing the same thing with dating. But let me tell you when it comes to a relationship between a man a woman this is VERY different thing.

    For instance – why do we tell Christian men they should not go to topless bars? The reason is because 99.5% of the time unless the man is asexual or has homosexual tendencies he IS going to have truly lustful thoughts about those women and he may even be tempted to touch them. It’s simple common sense about the male nature.

    Yet we kid ourselves and say because a Christian girl has more clothes on than that dancer that eventually her boyfriend is not going to have the same thoughts of touching her?

    This is why distance is so important when it comes to men and women in pre-marital relationships. Both emotional and physical distance are critical.

    Now you can ask all(or most of) those questions you pose in a public setting. Whether it is in the living room of your parents house(with you sitting in separate chairs) Or even if you were to go out to restaurant with family attending.

    I realize there may be some more personal questions you may want to ask as the relationship progresses to make sure they are the right one and there are ways to speak alone – but really not be alone.

    You can learn about a person’s spirituality and character without putting them in a purposefully tempting position. I actually have seen that in Baptist churches where women purposefully look to put men in tempting positions to see how they will react and then they judge them accordingly.

    I would run from such women as far as I could go. If a woman has no sympathy for or understanding of the male nature we as Christian men need leave her to be an old maid.

    I teaching my sons to look out for women like this. It is one thing for a woman to have high spiritual standards – it is another for her to have complete ignorance of male nature and male needs.

  38. On average, it takes about 9 months for a Christian dating/courting couple who desire to wait until marriage for sex to begin having premarital sex. There’s a natural progression that is just hard to resist, and I think that resisting it can actually do its share of damage to a relationship, just like premarital sex can.

    Your story of Jonathan and Rachel, I just have to say that a young man who desires to save sex for marriage has no business entering into an exclusive dating/courtship relationship when he is 2 years out from realistically being able to take a wife. That is kind of common sense. That math is just not going to work that way.

    That said, I really caution against your advice to rush into marriage without knowing the person your are marrying simply for the purpose of avoiding premarital sex. You are trading one set of problems for another. Yes, you solve the problem of yearning for sex (maybe), but if the couple lacks a solid spiritual and emotional connection, or they are just poorly compatible as partners, they are in for a lot of struggle. A marriage partner needs to be chosen with much wisdom and care, and this can require time….not two years I grant you…but there is a reasonable middle ground. The problem in your story is that “J” & “S” were not delaying marriage for the purpose of getting to know one another better, but rather because “J” was not yet practically ready to be a husband.

    You are right that in past culture couples often did no know each other well before marriage. However, we need to be careful idealizing such cultures. It wasn’t all roses and sunshine….nor is it now. Humans were sinful then and they are sinful know, and marriage has always been a struggle. (Ask Lot, or Abigail, or Sarah, or, or, or.) Today’s struggles may look different, but the were plenty of struggles in the marriages of old too. Remember, in times past it was culturally acceptable to physically abuse women and view them as property. Also, when the marriage wasn’t working out, men were largely free (if they could afford it) to marry another wife. I for one am grateful that this is no longer the culture for women, and that my father did not have the right to sell me in marriage to a man who was a stranger.

    Yes, it takes a different type of struggle today to meet, date, get to know, and choose a spouse. But personally, I will take it. There is no perfect road to marriage on planet earth where humans are sinful. But God redeems and provides in every culture for those who trust him.

    That said, I do agree that prolonged engagements are unwise at best and terribly dysfunctional at worst. Better to wait until one is actually prepared to marry, and then date wisely.

  39. I think december is off her rocker. Is it maybe emily? Have you checked her ip?

    If she is real, then by all means a list of compatability could come down to a picture to see physical attraction and a that list…. Wala marriage. I have never met a woman let alone a young woman who could keep her emtions in check. Never and it is silly to think a female could contain it before marriage. Her heightened emtions over the most trivial things during ( call it courting or dating) a relationship is what propels her to say “i do”.

    One of the reasons why you see ” christian” girls dating outside their church or dating non christians is because christian boys seek to honor mother and father and please their church community, so they act asexuual or have become lime eunichs. The young women see this and find it unappealing and unattractive. Thus leaving them all the reason to find a man that will show his masculinity toward them. Not necessarily in sexually overt ways, but in a way that makes her at the least attractive and feminine.

    Most young christian men have become white knights and social justice warriors that even secular sjw couldnt compete with. They (christian men) are the apex of white knightery. It is quite frankly gaggy. I see it every sunday and during the wee. I thank God my son doesnt act like them, show decency to his friends that are girls, but acts in a way that lets them know they are not his equal and that he is in control. My fear for him is findng someone who will not be submissive and will constantly challenge him to the point of divorce. Young women want you g men to be the better version of themselves.

    We have a friend whos daughter has claimed 2 false rape accusations. The mom is a feminist christian and raised her daughters to be sjw feminists. Her son has gone off the rails and is a mangina “toughguy”.

    if I were young, there s no doubt I would be mgtow and i am educated inshape and goodlooking, well to do and caring. I dont know how this younger generation deals with the hypocrisy of women and thier stupid ideas of relationships… Theyre all one sided toward themselves. I strongly urge looking at lori A’s blog. She sees that what has always been covert with women is now becoming overt and ruining western civilization…. It is that bad. And will get worse.

  40. I’m not Emily. I don’t really get the whole red pill thing. Maybe because I’m baptist and live in the Midwest so our culture is different. Most men I know in and out of the church are conservative and definitely don’t fall into the sjw club. As a woman is want to know a lot more about the man who is going t spiritually lead me and be the head of the household than whether or not he is attractive. But that’s probably because as a wife it’s my job to submit. I’m sure you’d want to know whether or not a mate can cook, can keep house, and what she thinks submission means? What does she think “depriving” a husband from sex means? These are issues I’m sure as a man you can understand would greatly affect marriage. Women have their own concerns.

    There’s a difference between being emotional and having emotional intimacy in a marriage. Maybe men don’t see it that way? But I felt the greatest movement towards oneness with my husband when we we didn’t know how we’d pay our bills, when we miscarried, when we had children, when we made rough life decisions. None of these occurred during dating, and they probably can’t if your not physically intimate and living together

  41. Mom2_5,

    You statement:

    “On average, it takes about 9 months for a Christian dating/courting couple who desire to wait until marriage for sex to begin having premarital sex. There’s a natural progression that is just hard to resist, and I think that resisting it can actually do its share of damage to a relationship, just like premarital sex can…

    That said, I really caution against your advice to rush into marriage without knowing the person your are marrying simply for the purpose of avoiding premarital sex. You are trading one set of problems for another. Yes, you solve the problem of yearning for sex (maybe), but if the couple lacks a solid spiritual and emotional connection, or they are just poorly compatible as partners, they are in for a lot of struggle…”

    I am not discounting the fact that for some couples it might take 9 months, and even for other couples like December and her husband they went 4 years with out physical intimacy. However that is not the NORM – that is the rare exception. Our standards around dating should not be built around exceptions, but rather the norm of human behavior.

    The fact is the vast majority of young people,whether Christians or not will be engaging in some type of inappropriate physical behavior, even if something less than intercourse in a matter of just a few months of dating. It is the reality of how God has created man and a woman. For most women, when they share their emotions with a man, eventually they will be sharing their body as well – it is how God has designed us and why long courtships are not a good idea.

    I understand you caution and concern about couples rushing into a relationship and marrying the wrong person. But I would humbly submit to you that the methods I am advocating are not about emotion – but about compatibility. It is about putting spiritual concerns before emotional and physical concerns.

    I would submit to you that most of the time you could put the average man with the average woman together and if they shared the same faith and the philosophy of Biblical marriage(agreement on gender roles) they can overcome almost any other differences including cultural differences and personality differences.

    The reason many couples discover after marriage that they were incompatible is usually because of one of two reasons:

    1. They based their entire relationship on feelings(she is cute, he is cute, I love they way they make me feel) and never did the hard work to see if they shared the same faith and same views of Biblical marriage(gender roles).

    2. They did try and make sure they were compatible and had the same faith and same views of Biblical marriage – but one person was a VERY good liar.

    Let me tell you something – if someone can lie for 4 months – they can lie for a year. Many people put on a great show until they are married and then the real person comes out. I have many friends whom this has happened to and it is very sad.

    But marriage is a RISK. If anyone else tells you otherwise they don’t know what they are talking about. All we can do is do out best to mitigate that risk but I do not think longer pre-marital relationships are the answer. I think vigorous pre-screening and talking to the relatives and friends and Church members of a perspective spouse is the right answer.

    I think you also must have pre-marriage counseling with a Pastor whom you trust.

    But even if you do all this could a person who knows all the right things to say slide past all this? Yes. Some people are even fake with the people they attend church with. There is no dating process that will weed out all bad apples. Marriage is always a risk – but everything in life that is worthwhile is a risk.

  42. Hi December,

    It’s not just my personal conviction that leaving teanagers alone in a dating situation today is dangerous, it’s a fact! Please read this article on the dangers of dating in this link: http://www.achristianhome.org/ISSUES_Christians_Face/Dangers%20of%20Dating.htm

    “But I felt the greatest movement towards oneness with my husband when we we didn’t know how we’d pay our bills, when we miscarried, when we had children, when we made rough life decisions. None of these occurred during dating, and they probably can’t if your not physically intimate and living together.”

    I applaud you for that statement, December! Many people today bail out of these rough life decisions and get a divorce, especially over fianancial issues. I am very glad that you and your husband got closer and became one more during these rough times instead of getting divorced over them. That is a great example for the rest of us!

    However, it also strengthens BGR’s agrument that the modern system of dating cannot really prepare the couple to face these issues in a healthy manner. What you have said also strengthens his argument that the modern system of dating based mainly on romantic love is very dangerous!

  43. Dragonfly,

    Also, why isn’t it Sarah’s job to keep his hand off her? Aren’t women usually the “gatekeepers” during this dating period (that’s what I’ve always heard)? I think it’s responsible for the girlfriend to remove his hand and set that boundary if needed. This gives her self-respect and even shows her boyfriend how valuable she is in that she respects herself more than that. I’ve even heard that sometimes this is used like a test by how men judge a woman. If she allows him to touch her or go further, she is less valuable in his eyes and he immediately loses respect for her, but if she stops him and explains she’s saving that for marriage, it makes him even more drawn to her and captivated by her character.

    What you mention are the old Patriarchal standards that women have shown ( when given feminist freedom to act as they please) to hate and reject.
    Women know how strong the male sex drive strong is and they love it and crave it !
    Remember the non virginal brides in the OT ?

    In that time , women were not given sexual freedom because in God’s eyes , a woman has to remain pure for ONE man , the sine qua non condition of fatherhood .
    Actually , by respecting this patriarchal standards , they were respecting man and fatherhood .

    Women have shown their true colours , and no matter how hypocrite or shy about it some may be , they do crave sex as much as men and tend to love FREE sex more than marital sex and its DUTIES.

    Women hate duties ,; they are like wild animals that need taming !
    Women submitted to those patriarchal standards as long as men called the shots .

    I remember being still virgin at 20 ..and how I HATED it . I became Christian at 20 and was told to remain so until marriage ..I HATED it even more !

    There is SO MUCH hypocrisy about sex going on with “free” women ..and even Christian women when they are not kept in check sexually.

    We are so used to thinking that male sex drive is so strong because man needs physical release (semen ) … how far we are from the truth !
    Women having no semen does not mean they have no sex drive !
    Women crave feeling desired and they would do anything for it , even making a man “fall” .
    I should say that women have a more emotional sex drive that consists in delighting in feeling wanted , so strongly that it may lead to rape fantasy.

    Feminists and all their sexual assault and rape hypocrisy are totally IRRELEVANT in a society where women call the shots and are told that they have a right over their own body (even in marriage , the worst lie ever) and flaunt their sexuality as soon as they turn 14 (or maybe before in some cases).

    Believe me , if men all became eunuchs , we would be so devastated that we could not handle it .

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s