158 responses to “Reverencing, Ravishing and Rollo”

1. 

   kobayashii1681

   October 23, 2015 at 2:16 am

   Well, well….queue the comments and Beethoven’s 5th symphony….

2. 

   Dash Riprock

   October 23, 2015 at 12:35 pm

   Look there is not much in your post that I don’t agree with. But I do think you might have an incomplete understanding of what dread is and why it works and frankly why a man, especially a Christian man should have it in his toolbox. Dread does not have to equal flirting or hitting on other women. But here is how it can work in a marriage. When a man has worked to make himself the very best version of himself, women take notice. No flirting required. Unfortunately, whether because of complacency or some other reason, the last person to notice this improvement is very often his wife. So for her, seeing how other women now react differently and positively to her “new and improved” husband is a confirmation that she “landed” a winner but at the same time this heightened interest from other women attention also subtly invokes some completion anxiety in her. Which shakes her out of her complacency. And makes her feel alive. Or as they say in the mansophere, it gives her the tingles. Which is good for her, for you and the marriage.
   Hope this helps a bit.

3. 

   Dash Riprock

   October 23, 2015 at 12:36 pm

   Oops, meant to say competition, not completion anxiety. That what Colin Kapernick has.

4. 

   Tab Spangler

   October 23, 2015 at 2:42 pm

   Rollo is a married, Christian man. He does focus on the behavioral science side of game with his blog, but you can find him often commenting on Dalrock’s blog. That’s where more of the theological discussions occur within the Christian manosphere. I don’t see the contradiction.

5. 

   biblicalgenderroles

   October 23, 2015 at 3:12 pm

   Dash,

   Ok that does help a bit, I just read a few of his posts and saw him talking about flirting and for me that raises flags. I agree that a man needs to emit confidence and be the best version of himself and this often very attractive to women. However I think even if a man is confident and being the best he can be some wives to process this in the same way.

   I have known of many Christian friends of mine(myself included) that when we get together for say church couples retreat it does not play out this way. Picture this – you have 5 or 6 Christian married couples in a room discussing the issues of life. I am talking about the some current events and tying that in with the Scriptures and putting in all in historical context. A couple of the wives say to my wife(my ex-wife) – “boy you are lucky to have such a funny and intelligent husband” – what is her reaction? “Well if you want him you can have”. When I got home she would tell me how stupid those women were and tell me “don’t get a big head”.

   I understand what Rollo is trying to say and I agree men should be emitting confidence both at home in private as well as in public. Being confident and assertive are things that synonymous with what it means to be a man Biblically speaking.

6. 

   Tab Spangler

   October 23, 2015 at 3:14 pm

   This blog does a good job pointing out where women are wrong to withhold sex and reminding men that they have authority to respond. That’s great if you can get a woman to understand that her sexual passion will be rewarded, but negotiations don’t excite women. I’ve learned that men need to stir emotional responses in women in order to bring out their passion. It doesn’t have to be manipulative, but game works with wives where negotiations for desire fail.

7. 

   biblicalgenderroles

   October 23, 2015 at 3:15 pm

   Tab,

   Thanks I was unaware that Rollo was a Christian and as you point out he does seem to focus on the behavioral science side(which is fine) but for me the theological side is more in my wheel house. I do think it is great to be able to reinforce the Scriptures with behaviorial science with it supports Biblical principles and commands.

8. 

   Tab Spangler

   October 23, 2015 at 3:17 pm

   This is in reference to explaining to your wife that you will reward her passion in the bedroom with nicer things. Negotiations will only get you so far.

9. 

   Dash Riprock

   October 23, 2015 at 3:51 pm

   okay, but you don’t want to give much credence to what she says. Watch her actions next time.

10. 

    Dash Riprock

    October 23, 2015 at 3:52 pm

    @ Tab. Right you are sir.

11. 

    biblicalgenderroles

    October 23, 2015 at 3:58 pm

    Dash,

    Yes I knew that you met competition. Trust me I have enough typos in my comments and posts that someone could spend a life time fixing them all.

    Jealousy is a very complex thing. In many cases jealousy is condemned in the Scriptures, but in other cases in the Bible jealousy is presented as being valid and right – like when God is jealous of his wife Israel running after other gods or when a husband was jealous of his wife in Moses law they prescribed a test for that. The husband’s jealousy was not condemned.

    So we see in the Scriptures that just like lying or killing, the morality of it depends upon the circumstances. Who is the one being jealous and what is the object of his jealousy?

    “But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you. But Esaias is very bold, and saith, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people.” – Romans 10:19-21 (KJV)

    God tells us here as well as in Romans 11:11 that he pursued another wife(the Church primarily made up of Gentiles and a some believing Jews) to make his first wife Israel whom he had to divorce for her unfaithfulness and disobedience jealous.

    As you may or may not be aware I teach extensively on this blog and show from the Scriptures that God allowed and regulated polygamy in his law. It was not some accident or temporary thing, or a result of sin, it was allowed by the design of God.

    There were many noble men in Biblical times who would not divorce their wives except for a grave sin like adultery. But if they had a wife whom was disagreeable or passionless in the bed they might take on an additional wife. Sometimes the taking of an additional wife would spur the first wife’s competitive nature that you(and Rollo) allude to and it would make her a better wife knowing that if she did not give her full affection to her husband and please him he had other wives who would.

    But since we have removed the entire concept of polygamy in western culture women feel once they are married, especially to a man of the Christian faith that their position is secure and there is nothing for them to compete with – or a least there should not be in their view. In fact many women believe it places them in position of great power since they are their husbands one and only source of companionship and sexuality and in their view he may not even look at any other woman, let alone consider another woman for marriage.

    So I believe in Biblical times where polygamy was common a man even considering the idea of another wife could spur his wife to the anxiousness you talk about and make her a better wife. But in our modern “monogamous marriage only” society that threat is really not a reality for most women.

12. 

    biblicalgenderroles

    October 23, 2015 at 4:57 pm

    Dash,

    I am willing to concede that it is possible that some of Rollo’s methods may work with some women. But for some wives – the fact that other women find their husband’s attractive does nothing to change their actions. The reason is because they have no real fear of him leaving them or having an affair if he is a good and noble man. In Biblical times the fear of a man taking on additional wife was a very real fear, or if he already had another wife or wives, a women knew that on a daily basis she had to compete for the affections of her husband. That fear no longer exists today in many women.

    Again I will concede that spurring the competitive nature of some women may yield changes in their actions, but there are a great deal of women whom this approach would not work for.

    So I suppose if it as you framed it here and not out right flirting and hitting on other women, I would not see anything wrong with stoking the competitive side in your wife under certain conditions. But I think it is only one tool in our “tool box” as you say, and for me as far as I will go is talking to other women in a Church group setting. But that has never spurred any changes in either my first wife or my second wife.

    I have seen some changes using what I think is the “correlation” or what you would call the “negotiation” approach where my wife understands that her getting some of her wants met is dependent on her behavior. But it has been mixed results.

    But I think at the end of the day for me it is not the results that make something right or wrong. For instance with some women no matter what you do, whether it is using dread, negotiation(which I call correlation) or even discipline(in extreme cases of rebellious and irreverent behavior) – none of these things work to change a woman’s behavior. For some women the roots of their rebellion go so deep that they could loose their marriage and their children and every other thing in their life and they would never let go of it.

    But as men and as husbands we are called by God to teach and discipline our wives and then it is up to them whether they will respond to that teaching and discipline. Some women respond, some women do not. Other women will make some changes like my wife(second wife) that has made many changes since we were first married.

    I will give you an example. When my wife and I were first married – if I asked her to make me lunch she would say something like “you have two arms and two legs, go make it yourself”. She rarely cooked and I did most of the cooking at first. My wife was raised in a feminist home. But now over a few years of marriage and me teaching her and showing her the correlation between things she now cooks the majority of the time and makes my lunch for each day.

    My wife used to routinely deny me sex, flat out tell me “No”. In the beginning of our marriage she told me that I should be happy with having sex once or twice a month when she was in the mood, because after all “sex should only happen when both people are in the mood”. Guess what – after confronting that sinful behavior through counseling and working with my Pastor and his wife along with me at home correlating for her what happens when she directly refuses me without a good reason she no longer flatly refuses me.

    But the passion is something we still have to work on which is affected by many things in her life(her disability, her depression and anxiety, her wrong views of sex and marriage, her feminism and then her views of me). She had some incorrect views of sex long before our marriage – and this I know from her own sister who has attempted to prod my wife to show more passion in the bedroom.

    Again though this about a lot more than sex. My wife as with many Christian wives has a very hard time reverencing me as her husband. She is routinely disrespectful toward me in public settings even to the point where her own sister(who is conservative Christian) and her own mother(who is a feminist) call her out for it at family gatherings. I call her out as well.

    Her sister had a great spiritual awakening several years back when she was in the midst of a divorce with her husband. She realized how feminism had so poisoned her thinking and how being submissive to her husband as God commands would actually transform her life and her marriage. It was too late to save that marriage as her husband had already moved on(he did many wrong things as well) but now she is married again but she is totally different woman with her new Christian husband where she reverences him out side the bedroom and ravishes him inside the bedroom. She tried to share this breakthrough with her sister(my wife) but wife would not hear her.

13. 

    Rollo Tomassi

    October 23, 2015 at 4:59 pm

    Thanks for the props.

    I think one thing you need to make a distinction about is conflating Dread with Fear. Women don’t want a man to cheat, but they love a man who could cheat. Dread is not impending doom type fear. Dread is an incentive for a woman’s imagination.

    The problem with most marriages – Christian or otherwise – is that familiarity breeds not just contempt, but complacency and boredom. Your wife is so familiar with you that she can complete your sentences, she knows what you look like stepping out of the shower, she’s smelled your farts and has heard all your jokes. Most wives are too comfortable with their husbands, and that comfort is anti-seductive.

    What is it about you that would ever prompt your wife to think, “hmm, I wonder what’s going on with Bill?” When husbands hit the gym and get themselves into even marginally better shape it’s enough to prompt this imagination. I see women at the gym hitting it hard who look like they’d never been there a day in their lives and each one is either a recent divorcé or is planning to be. One of the surest signs of marital discontent is a renewed interest in physique and appearance. Women understand the purpose of planning ahead like this, so when a man does it, it provokes imagination.

    When you adopt a new attitude as part of a Red Pill awareness, this can trigger that same imagination. When you receive new accolades, a boost in social status or job status, a new degree, or some recognition for being the best at something you do that others are impressed with, this inspires the dread of loss.

    It really doesn’t take much to inspire a tingle inducing dread in most wives; in fact you don’t even need to actively induce it, you just need to stoke it when your wife becomes sensitive to it from a 3rd party. This is what I call Soft or Passive Dread. It’s the occasion when one of your wife’s girlfriends compliments you about something unsolicited. It’s the time when another woman tells her how envious she is of her for having such a great guy to be her husband. It’s the time when she catches another woman looking you over. That’s not fear, that’s dread. You’re not holding anything over her head, you’re simply no allaying her anxiety of losing you to the competition.

    For the majority of married men there are precious few occasion for him to enjoy social proof from others. We tend to get lazy after marriage, we give up because the challenge is over, but for those of us who’ve always pushed ourselves personally and professionally we need to recognize the opportunity of inspiring dread when we do experience social proof.

    I tend to get run up the flagpole for suggesting men flirt with other women, but this doesn’t mean I think men ought to bluntly and overtly go out of their way to flirt with other women. Sometimes overt dread Game is called for, but it reveals your hand of cards when you do. Most men think that overt dread is a heavy-handed ultimatum and that is fear. It serves a man far better to covertly prompt dread than to abusively assert dread.

    Often enough all it takes is positioning yourself to be flirted with, or to allow your wife’s imagination to run when another woman expresses interest or envy about you. All that said, you still need to cultivate yourself to be the kind of man other men want to be and other women want to bed.

14. 

    Rollo Tomassi

    October 23, 2015 at 5:05 pm

    Negotiations will get you nowhere. Genuine desire and sexual response is never based on a process of agreed upon terms. For as much as women will fly off the handle about men feeling they are ‘owed sex’, too many couples put faith in exactly the process that leads to ‘obligation sex’.

    Men should rather sleep with a hooker than entertain the idea of obligated sex with their wives. The hooker will put on a better performance and for more concrete negotiated terms.

15. 

    biblicalgenderroles

    October 23, 2015 at 6:00 pm

    Rollo,

    Here is a key phrase that you said:

    “It really doesn’t take much to inspire a tingle inducing dread in most wives”

    I am not disagreeing with you that your approach might work with some women. Whether it is “most” might be more debatable. Even then if it did actually work with “most” as opposed to “some” you still have these lingering issues:

    For many Christian men, myself included we feel that it would immoral and wrong to put in our wife’s head that if she does not show more passion in the bedroom or reverence us as her husband we would do any of these things:

    1. Divorce her.
    2. Maybe not divorce her, but run around with other women

    I realize you are using the term “passive dread” as opposed to “overt dread” but in my opinion they both boil down to the same thing. “Convince your wife that other women are interested, and maybe just maybe you would cheat on her” and that will stoke the fires of passion.

    That might work with some women, but results do not always make the process whereby we got to something right.

    I take a lot of heat for my positions on marriage, headship, sexual refusal and discipline on this site. I am often told that these Scriptural methods will not yield good results.

    I even had one gentlemen in an email who said “God disciplined his wife Israel to try and bring her back to him and did that bring her back to him? No. So that should show us that discipline is not the way to go with our wives. Instead we must appeal to their heart and their passions.” It sounds to me like you are saying something very similar.

    Was God a bad husband to Israel? Is he not our ultimate example as husbands? God did in fact use discipline with his wife Israel and in his sovereignty he knew that would not work, but he did it anyway as an example to us. Discipline is right whether it yields the results we hope for or not – this is a lesson we learn from God himself.

    Did God use jealousy first or second? No he used jealousy after discipline did not work. Then he went to Gentiles to make his wife Israel(who he divorced, but he still loves) jealous. One day she will return to him.

    But God did have the option of taking another wife(the church) to help spur his first wife(Israel) to jealousy. We do not have that option in our current “monogamous marriage only” culture.

16. 

    Dash Riprock

    October 23, 2015 at 6:13 pm

    Don’t have much I can add to what has been said by Tab and Rollo just hope that we have at least persuaded you to take a second look at the positive benefits of Dread in a marriage. But let me add this since flirting keeps coming up. There is a big difference between being a flirty horn dog on the prowl, and being a charming, witty man who can carry a conversation. One is appropriate for a married man and one is not. Now I know it is hard to get practical tutoring in this anymore but honestly just go rent some of those Hollywood melodrama’s from the 40’s and 50’s and watch how those leading men treat all women, not just their love interests.. In fact you’ll see them more charming around the old ladies, little girls and spinsters than the woman they are targeting. They do that because that’s who they are. And they know their love interest is in the background lapping it up. Cary, Rock, Newman et al. Last weekend wife and I watched a young Sean Connery game a lovely Gina Lollabrigidia in Women in Straw into a puddle of submission. Thought I was going to have to get a fire hose to put out the Mrs. .And who was Sean? Well he was the guy in Rollo’s last sentence, which truly ought to be the motto of every Red Pill man.
    Have no doubt good friend Dread works and it works for the benefit of all, hubby, wife and kids. So don’t worry about making her reverence you. Go for the tingles. The tingles will take care of the rest.

17. 

    biblicalgenderroles

    October 23, 2015 at 7:08 pm

    Rollo,

    What you call “Negotiations” I call “Correlations”. When I think of negotiations, I think of a couple sitting down and discussing terms of a contract. With “Correlation” words may or may not be spoken.

    A wife comes to understand that if she does what is required by God and reverences and ravishes her husband, he will do what is not required and that is fulfill some of her wants. Yes a husband is required to provide for the needs of his wife, but not her wants. Many men make no correlation with their wives between their wives wants being met and the wife fulfilling her requirement to reverence and ravish her husband.

    Now again I will admit that just as your method of soft dread does not always work, neither does correlation always work. But I believe the difference between our two methods is in my opinion “correlation” is following the pattern of Scripture and God’s discipline while “soft dread” may not.

    We have to realize that the whole point of marriage is not to get our wive’s to sexually desire us and have passion in the bedroom – sex is one part of marriage as a whole, but arguably a very important part. The point of marriage is to model the relationship of God to his people, Christ to his Church and for men and women to live out their design by God. That means men should live as God designed men to live and women should live as God designed women to live(and those are distinctly different designs).

    Yes “obligation sex” is nowhere as fulfilling as as sex that is passionately and genuinely desired. I agree 100%. When a woman only has “obligation sex” with her husband with no attempt to genuinely desire him sexually, or least fake it when she does not she is fulfilling the letter of God’s law, but not the spirit of it.

    But I genuinely believe that even your method could in many ways invokes “obligation sex” as well – because the woman is having sex with her husband out of fear of loosing him. Now you might argue that maybe she just thinks better of him because how other women see him and so it is not so much fear but how she sees him – that may be the case sometimes. But at the end of the day your method of soft dread will more often than not invoke “obligation sex” with a topping of “faking it” to convince her husband she truly desires him sexually and is passionate toward him in the bedroom.

    But don’t get me wrong – I do not think “obligation sex” or “faking it” are wrong in marriage. Neither of them are. Sometimes women genuinely don’t feel like having sex and its fine to fake it. What I do think is wrong though is when a wife displays her displeasure to her husband during “obligation sex”.

    But I think the way we get our wives to have “obligation sex” and “fake it till she makes it” and eventually she has “genuine sex she actually desires” matters. I believe the method we use is actually more important than the results we get.

    Speaking of hookers on a lighter note. A lot of people have accused me of teaching wives are just glorified prostitutes if what I say from the Scriptures is true about sex.

    Lets compare a prostitute to a wife and see if they are even close

    Prostitute – sees a man once(or maybe multiple times) he pays her an agreed some and she has sex with him. She gets no commitment that he will ever come back, she gets no children(or she did he would deny them and not want to help her care for them or be a father to them). She gets no home, no security, no real talking in many cases and no real kindness or love.

    Wife – man makes a life long commitment to her, provides for her, protects her, he talks to her, gives her children and helps to be a father to those children and she knows he will come home to her every night and be there to fix things around the house as well as lead her and guide their family. He takes them to Church each week to hear the Word of God. There could be many other things a husband provides but your get the point.

    But most modern western women think this is not enough. They want to be worshiped by their husbands before they would ever think any such thing. The believe it is 100% their husbands job to put the passion and desire into them to want this and even then some women just don’t need or want sex but they would be willing to “fake it” only if their husbands worship them.

    If a husband expects that under these circumstance she should freely offer her body to him and cultivate her own sexual desire towards him and when she is not “feeling it”, she will still “fake it” he is somehow making her into a prostitute. There is absolutely no comparison to a prostitute here as you can clearly see. Yet this is how it so ridiculously framed.

18. 

    biblicalgenderroles

    October 23, 2015 at 7:56 pm

    Rollo,

    If I were to summarize it here are three theories on how a man can get his wife to meet his sexual needs in marriage:

    1. Happy wife-happy life – Do everything in your power to make your wife feel secure and happy and comfortable. Breakdown all barriers, share all feelings and do whatever it takes to make her happy. Then she will truly desire to have sex with you all the time(or a least most of the time).

    2. Soft Dread(your approach). Make her want you because other women want you. Make her feel somewhere in the back of her mind that if she does not meet your needs sexually you might cheat.

    3. Correlation and discipline(my approach – what you call Negotiation). I say “my approach”, but I honestly and genuinely believe this to be the Scriptural approach. Discipline comes into play in the sense that your wife is made to understand on day one of your marriage that sexual refusal(as opposed to sexual rain-checks) will not be tolerated. If chronic sexual refusal goes on for a long length of time then divorce will be sought. Correlation comes into play with when a wife does not refuse, but she shows no passion or desire(does not even attempt to fake it) and just lays there each time putting her displeasure on full display.

    You and I would both agree that method number 1 rarely works. I would argue that the only cases where method 1 works is when a woman has a naturally high libido regardless of her husbands actions. In that case neither the method you propose, nor the method I propose would be necessary because the wife would want sex regardless.

    But let’s face it, most women don’t have the same type of libido as men do. Ours is instant and ever present. Theirs must be cultivated. I think you and I would agree that in most cases a woman’s libido must be cultivated. Where we disagree is on HOW it it must be cultivated.

    Your “Soft Dread” method does share something in common with the “Happy Wife-Happy life” method. Both of your methods appeal to a woman’s emotions to get her to have sex and make no appeal to her duty to have sex which is what the Bible teaches.

    I would argue that Biblically speaking a wife has not only the duty to have sex with her husband, but she also has a duty to cultivate her own sexual desire toward her husband and when that desire is not there she “fakes it until she makes it”.

    It is all in how a woman chooses to view her world.

    Will she look at her husband for who he is versus who he is not or what she wishes he would be? He is her husband, the one she was made for. He is her protector and provider. He is or will be the father of her children. If she looks at these things, and does not concentrate on things she does not like about her husband she can cultivate sexual desire toward her husband so that she won’t always be faking it.

19. 

    Rollo Tomassi

    October 23, 2015 at 9:26 pm

    BGR: Are you a Christian because you have to be, or because you have a genuine desire to love and know God? I’m fairly sure you’ll claim the latter, but are you a Christian because you fear going to Hell? Do you honor God because it’s your Biblical obligation to do so or because you have real soul-level love and conviction to want to?

    What is it about the concept of a loving, interpersonal concept of God that makes you feel that desire to seek Him out? Is it an obligation due to the ultimatum that an eternity in Hell represents, or is it a genuine intrinsic desire?

    I ask this because the nature of genuine desire is universal. I don’t want a woman’s feigned, obligated desire, I want her to want me. It’s my belief that God desires the same from us, thus we have freewill.

    I’m no Biblical scholar but,…

    15’I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. 16’So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth. 17’Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,… – Revelations 3:16

    I’m not a Bible literalist, but even symbolically God wants genuine desire from the creations he gave a capacity of freewill to. If it was just about the act, or the obligation, he would’ve created automatons, not individuals with the capacity to decline those acts.

    As I said, sex with a prostitute is a more honest engagement because you know from the outset that her performance is an obligated service she provides. Not so with wives and ‘Duty Sex’. I’m not interested in acts of devotion that are motivated by obligation or negotiation, I’m interested in a woman’s genuine, intrinsic vigor to have sex with me.

    Christian men will go to great lengths to flagellate themselves about masturbating to porn, but at the heart of that act is the simple truth that it’s a sexual substitute for the genuine desire they are unable to inspire in their wives. It’s disingenuous.

    Why is it that women are more genuinely motivated to have sex with a man before they’re married than after? Because the risk of loss, the anxiety of competition (real of imagined) inspires genuine urgent desire.

20. 

    Rollo Tomassi

    October 23, 2015 at 9:47 pm

    Hypergamy doesn’t care about religious convictions.

    Virtue, faith and devotion to those convictions might make for a source of personal comfort, but they don’t inspire tingles.

21. 

    biblicalgenderroles

    October 23, 2015 at 9:50 pm

    Rollo,

    I am a Christian because I genuinely love God and I love his Word. His Word gives order to what would otherwise be a meaningless existence. I love that he saved me and I don’t have to earn my salvation. I do realize though from the Scriptures that fellowship with God in the here and now and rewards in heaven are something that I have to earn by my right behavior before him. If I am living in sin, then I will loose that sweet fellowship with God that I desire. But I do recognize that for some Christians a healthy fear of hell was what drove them to God and I don’t condemn them for that.

    Certainly God wants us to desire to love him and I agree he gives us a free will to choose him or not choose him. But I can tell you many friends of mine whom God brought almost to the point of death for them to realize they needed him and they accept him as savior. Other friends of mine and even I myself have experienced the discipline of God when we were in a sinful state. He used that discipline to prod us to come back to him, to fellowship with him again. So on one hand yes God wants us to choose to follow him(he did not make us automatons) but he also uses disciplinary measures in our life to bring us back to him.

    So do you think God does not accept our obedience if it comes out of obligation? I believe he does.

    Let me give you an example that I think directly relates to sex in marriage.

    I attend Church every Sunday morning. Do I always feel like getting up on Sunday mornings? No. But I get up because I believe it is my obligation to take myself and my family to worship God with his Church each week. But you know what the funny thing is – I can say that most Sundays when I go I am really glad I came and I enjoy the service once I get my mind into it.

    In the same way a woman could have sex with her husband out of obligation because he asks her to, but if she allows herself to open her mind and body during sex she can choose to enjoy something that started off simply out of obligation.

    Obligation is not a swear word when it comes to sex, in fact this is how the Scriptures present it.

22. 

    Rollo Tomassi

    October 23, 2015 at 10:09 pm

    So by that definition sex with a Sexbot not only wouldn’t be a sin, but something a Christian man’s wife should endorse.

    Scripturally God wants us either hot or cold, phoning it in gets you spat out of His mouth.

23. 

    biblicalgenderroles

    October 24, 2015 at 2:46 am

    Rollo,

    Sexual relations can only occur between living beings.

    Bestiality – human + animal (Forbidden in Scripture)

    Homosexual – human + human of same gender (Forbidden in Scripture)

    Heterosexual – human + human of opposite gender (allowed and honored only within marriage)

    Now notice I did not limit sexual relations to physical contact. Because you can have virtual sex(mental sex) with another person through cyber or phone sex(which would also be forbidden if the persons are not members of the opposite sex and married).

    You can’t have sex with inanimate objects.

    That means it is impossible to have sex with these objects:

    A picture of a naked person.
    A blow up doll.
    A Sexbot
    A vibrator
    Any other sex toy or inanimate object.

    All of the things I mentioned above would be no more than masturbatory aids.

    Masturbation is not forbidden in Scripture and its cleanup is actually regulated in Leviticus 15:

    “16 ‘Now if a man has a seminal emission, he shall bathe all his body in water and be unclean until evening.

    17 As for any garment or any leather on which there is seminal emission, it shall be washed with water and be unclean until evening.

    18 If a man lies with a woman so that there is a seminal emission, they shall both bathe in water and be unclean until evening.” – Leviticus 15:16-18 (NASB)

    Verses 16 and 17 describe a man having a ejaculation apart from a woman(him masturbating or having a nocturnal emission) and it does not restrict this emission to ONLY a nocturnal emission as Deuteronomy 23:10 does for regulations regarding men before they go into battle.

    So you are correct, if theoretically speaking sexbots existed it would not be wrong to use them as a masturbatory aid as they are inanimate objects.

    However anytime a man has sex with his wife that is sexual relations by definition whether she is doing so from obligation or because she truly is in the mood and desires to have sex with him.

    Revelation 3:16 does not limit a woman having sex with her husband to only when she desires it. Why does God say they are lukewarm? He tells us in the very next verse:
    ” 17 Because you say, “I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked,” – Because they were wealthy church they though they needed nothing. But they needed the Lord in their Church.

    Even a woman with a healthy sex drive is not always going to desire sex when her husband does. But if even if she does not desire it she is obligated to give herself to her husband and do her best to make him feel as if she desires it whether she truly does in that instance or not.

    See my post https://biblicalgenderroles.com/2015/10/18/should-a-christian-wife-fake-it/ for more one why and when I believe a woman should “fake it”.

24. 

    biblicalgenderroles

    October 24, 2015 at 3:02 am

    Another thing on sexbots and other masturbatory aids, while masturbation can be a helpful tool for sexual release when a spouse is sick or medically unable to, or when spouses are apart it should never replace the sexual relations(one flesh) aspect of the husband and wife relationship. A husband is not to deny his wife, and wife is not to deny her husband sexually.

    No sexbot or other masturbatory aid can replace the feeling of human contact that is involved in sexual relations between a man and wife in the act of sex.

    Again I am not arguing that a woman shouldn’t at least “fake it” and attempt to make some sort of genuine emotional contact with her husband during sex even if she did not physically desire to have sex.

    But as I said previously whether you use dread, or correlation and discipline(negotiation) in the end your wife could still be “faking it” with her performance and I am not saying that is wrong. Whatever causes her to fake it, whether it be her devotion to God, her devotion to her husband, or her fearing loss of her husband to other women, or wanting to please her husband and thus get some of her needs met it matters not – provided the dread does not come a place of a husband planting the idea in his wife’s head that he will cheat(sleep with another woman outside of marriage).

25. 

    biblicalgenderroles

    October 24, 2015 at 4:22 am

    Rollo,

    Your statement:

    “Christian men will go to great lengths to flagellate themselves about masturbating to porn, but at the heart of that act is the simple truth that it’s a sexual substitute for the genuine desire they are unable to inspire in their wives. It’s disingenuous.”

    My Response:
    The reason Christian men punish themselves for masturbating to porn is because of the false interpretation of Matthew 5:28 and the Biblical definition of lust and what “adultery in the heart” actually is. I encourage you to check my recent post https://biblicalgenderroles.com/2015/10/10/the-church-women-and-barbeques/ as well as post I did some time ago https://biblicalgenderroles.com/2014/04/18/what-does-the-bible-say-about-lust/

    The reason men are attracted to the female form, and especially sexual scenes especially depicting women enjoying sex with men whether it be a normal TV show(with simulated sex) or a porn movie with actual sex occurring is for two reasons.

    The first reason some men view porn is because yes men need a woman(their wife) to a least fake desire(if not have a genuine desire which is preferable) for them during sex as you point out.

    But there is another reason men look at porn. It is because men are creatures of variety and most men are naturally polygynous in their sexual nature. A man whose wife does everything perfectly in bed and always gives him the full treatment and the best performance can still be attracted to other women and drawn to imaginations of sexuality with other women whether those be just in his head, in a painting he sees, in a picture he sees or a movie he sees.

    Your Statement:

    “Why is it that women are more genuinely motivated to have sex with a man before they’re married than after? Because the risk of loss, the anxiety of competition (real of imagined) inspires genuine urgent desire.”

    My Response:
    You speak of “urgent desire”, I would call that fear. They don’t want to loose him to another woman so they give him sex whether they truly desire it or not before they are married. Sometimes they may truly desire it in which case they don’t have to fake it. But then at other times they may not desire it – but they still fake it and put on the performance because they want to keep him from leaving them. Once marriage occurs, especially if it is to a Christian man whose has committed to them that fear is not gone. So now they only want to have sex when and if they truly desire it – which will most likely be FAR less frequently than the man’s sexual desire.

    I am not saying women don’t truly desire sex with their husbands – some desire it more often than others and some not at all.

    But I would argue than in either the dread method, or the correlation and discipline method(which you call negotiation) it really comes down to two things.

    1. How does a Christian husband inspire his wife to cultivate her own sexual desire toward him?
    2. How does a Christian husband get his wife to have sex with him and fake it even when she does not feel like it?(because even if she has some genuine sex desire for her husband that does not mean she will desire sex as often as he does).

26. 

    Dragonfly

    October 24, 2015 at 5:02 am

    Nice that you’re being pulled into dialogue with the red pills BGR. I do think dread is good – I don’t think it always means what people first think of when they hear it.

    ” just go rent some of those Hollywood melodrama’s from the 40’s and 50’s and watch how those leading men treat all women, not just their love interests.. In fact you’ll see them more charming around the old ladies, little girls and spinsters than the woman they are targeting. They do that because that’s who they are. ”

    Exactly. Amused mastery, men who understand and display this, are loved and adored by women of ALL ages. It is the beauty of what amused mastery truly is… and it is so attractive in a man.

27. 

    Dragonfly

    October 24, 2015 at 5:12 am

    Wow Rollo, it’s a perfect analogy relating it to God wanting genuine desire from us – even in tithing that concept is explained, but in other places, too, like Isaiah when talking about God being offended by his children just going through the motions & saying prayers/chants without the feelings behind them.

    But I think BGR is on to something when talking about a Christian man’s obligations to figure out ways to cope with duty sex, however hard it may be.

28. 

    Dragonfly

    October 24, 2015 at 5:18 am

    @BGR “Other friends of mine and even I myself have experienced the discipline of God when we were in a sinful state. He used that discipline to prod us to come back to him, to fellowship with him again. So on one hand yes God wants us to choose to follow him(he did not make us automatons) but he also uses disciplinary measures in our life to bring us back to him.”

    Yes… even Hosea was instructed to use discipline in order to bring his wife back to him, to resort to taking her out into the wilderness, “hedging her in,” stripping her of everything she loved so that she was forced to focus on him and loyalty to their marriage. And it was a complete analogy of the Jews and their relationship with God –> which translates to our relationship with God.

29. 

    Dragonfly

    October 24, 2015 at 5:24 am

    “I attend Church every Sunday morning. Do I always feel like getting up on Sunday mornings? No. But I get up because I believe it is my obligation to take myself and my family to worship God with his Church each week. But you know what the funny thing is – I can say that most Sundays when I go I am really glad I came and I enjoy the service once I get my mind into it.”

    Another great analogy! I love your blog BGR… I honestly feel like I get the most from it, due to how everything you say you explain so well with religious examples. I grew up and was practically raised in a Christian school from the time I was 4 until late teens. My instructors were people of great faith, such amazing teachers! I owe my faith to them and my parents who paid so much for me to attend that school. Some of the teachers had spent years studying the scriptures in seminary… one that I had when I was 15 had studied Greek for 8 years, his own personal Bible was in Greek! He taught us how to write essays connecting the OT to the NT, going incredibly deep into the meanings and mysteries.

    Your blog reminds me so much of him. Thank you for doing it, I’m sure a lot of people get things out it.

30. 

    biblicalgenderroles

    October 24, 2015 at 6:15 am

    Dragonfly,

    I don’t think dread sounds all bad – I guess the flirting part of it just does not sit well with me. But I don’t have a problem with me talking with women in general and I think it is good to show confidence while in public as a man. But I don’t think dread minus the overt flirting is enough for many women. They need other motivations as well.

    I think at the end of the day we as husbands can only do so much to motivate our wives to cultivate their own sexual desire toward us as well as to embrace the “fake it till you make it” attitude toward sex. Once we show them correlations between their different behaviors and the consequences(either negative or positive) the choice is truly theirs to make. We can’t literally force our wives to do anything as I said in another post – all we can do is bring things into their lives to show them the way – but they must choose to act on it.

31. 

    biblicalgenderroles

    October 24, 2015 at 6:32 am

    Thank you very much for your support Dragonfly. With all the negative hits we get as bloggers(I know you have gotten your share) it is good to know that we have a positive impact on other believers. Also you are doing a great job trying to bridge the gap between me and Rollo 🙂

32. 

    Emily

    October 24, 2015 at 8:21 am

    “Genuine desire is the result of insecurity, anxiety”
    Maybe for a woman with no self-esteem

    Let’s examine what Mr.Rollo wants us to dread.
    Through flirting, he wants us to dread the idea that our husband CAN cheat on us with other women.
    Essentially, we are supposed to dread that our husband’s a sinner.
    A fear that your husband may commit that sin is in no way a healthy fear.
    Also, if you need ‘soft dread’ to revive a marriage due to a lack of duty and love, then just end it, really.
    So that part is of course complete nonsense.

    But wait! I’m not gonna be all negative here. Yes, if a lot of women look at your husband cause he’s attractive (as girls look at my bf) that makes us happy because it makes us feel that we are with someone special. Someone of high, in red pill lingo, social market value is dedicating themselves to us. That makes us feel special. But that goes both ways I think, and it certainly does not translate into dread.
    ——–

    Larry, on to the more interesting, biblical, question on whether a wife should fear her husband? I don’t think so.
    Why should I fear my husband? Obeying him, ‘reverencing’ him, is a command from God. Every non-feminist woman understands this – unlike what Mr.Solomon above believes, we are in fact logical enough to understand what the Scripture commands of us, and if Mr.Solomon believes we aren’t, he can marry a robot.
    Anyway, since this is a command from God, it is God that I should dread. To dread anyone else is blasphemy.

    Larry, I wonder what you think about these following verses:
    “The LORD is my light and my salvation; whom shall I fear? the LORD is the strength of my life; of whom shall I be afraid?”
    “It is you alone who are to be feared.” Psalm 76:7
    Cause, “see that she reverence her husband” it’s about obedience and veneration of husband, not fear, as you said.
    I’ve always thought that fear, that is to be afraid of someone and what they can do to you, is something reserved for God alone.

33. 

    Liz

    October 24, 2015 at 11:43 am

    Wow, this is the most interesting thread I’ve read in a long time!
    From my perspective, both Rollo and BGR are right.
    If I’m understanding the positions, correctly, Rollo’s self-improvement/soft dread approach is similar to what I might call a “value-adjustment” approach. If your wife values you appropriately, she will do things to please you. Soft dread is a way of subliminally heightening one’s value in her eyes. Women are herd creatures and tend to value what others value. They are attracted to what they value (respect/admiration/ are very closely alligned with attraction in women) So if they perceive no one else would want their man they can lose attraction.

    On the flip side, I’m not so sure it’s realistic to expect “tingles” to be a constant driver for this. Women ovulate a very small portion of the time and their sex drive has ebbs and peaks. What BGR describes (if I’m interpreting this correctly) is more along the lines of establishing a Pavlovian-esque habit pattern with incentives to good behavior and disincentives for bad. I think we’re the product of our habit patterns, so I agree this is also an approach that works.

    I think the main problem I have with the concept of “duty sex” is more with the language than the reality. It’s the same with the word “dread”. Obviously (or I would at least hope it is obvious) without trust a marriage is doomed. An existence of constant fear is no way to live, and ultimately stress just increases cortisol level and decreases desire. But having something of value, thinking of a person as valuable is a positive and doesn’t inspire this effect. In a similar vein, “duty” makes one think of cleaning toilets and wiping up vomit and other unpleasantries one does out of obligation. Obviously we all have a duty to our spouses/community/friends/family but when we think in terms of obligation rather than fulfillment it kind of sullies one’s perception.

    Just as a small example, I have what many would call “duty” sex quite often. I’m very very attracted to my husband and he produces a lot of ‘tingles” for me, but my sex drive is still far lower than his, and it always has been.

34. 

    Liz

    October 24, 2015 at 12:24 pm

    Thinking further after coffee and a little more clarity, I’d summarize Rollo’s and BGR’s perspectives as follows:
    Rollo: Thinking = Doing (generate the tingles, she will come)
    BGR: Doing = Thinking (positive feedback loop effect)

    I think these approaches are BOTH correct and both work, and could be applied to anything. Example, exercise. Sometimes doing equals thinking rather than the other way around. If I get into my running shoes, the majority of the time I start to feel like running, even if I didn’t before I put them on. If I’m a regular runner, I want to run and miss it when I don’t.

35. 

    Liz

    October 24, 2015 at 12:53 pm

    I respectfully submit (pun intended) 😛 that
    Thinking= doing
    and
    Doing= thinking
    should be applied collaboratively, as needed. 🙂

    In my home life, I’d definitely say it’s a mixture of both. I don’t “dread”, but I do value. I don’t have “duty sex” but I do have sex when I’m not in the mood (at least at first).

36. 

    insanitybytes22

    October 24, 2015 at 12:57 pm

    Amen, Emily. Perfect love casts out fear. What is being discussed here is about power, control, and abuse.

37. 

    Liz

    October 24, 2015 at 2:08 pm

    Most interesting thread I’ve read (anywhere) should’ve added. I haven’t done much perusing here yet.
    🙂

38. 

    biblicalgenderroles

    October 24, 2015 at 2:14 pm

    Dragonfly,

    Ok I think may “finally” have my head wrapped around this “dread” thing. If by “dread” you simply mean that a man is charming, kind and confident when is in public around the ladies(women of all ages) and this draws his wife to him – no problem. Although I don’t think all men due to personality differences can pull of “charming” the same, but I think all us as men can pull off confident and kind with the help of the Holy Spirit.

    But the part of dread teachings that still don’t settle well with me is the idea of making your wife think you might cheat if she does not fake it in the bedroom but rather just gives straight obligation sex while displaying her displeasure.

    I do believe a woman should “dread” the fact that if she consistently and willfully denies her husband that he can and just might divorce her for breaching the marriage covenant, but this threat hanging over her head is not one that he will sin(like cheating on her), but rather that he will act righteously by not allowing her sin to continue.

39. 

    Jeff

    October 24, 2015 at 2:49 pm

    If you want answers to your questions, BGR, I would recommend an excellent blog on sex in marriage, written by a Christian man, “Frankly Speaking:”

    Her Sex Is Broken and I Gotta Fix It: Part 1

40. 

    Jeff

    October 24, 2015 at 2:56 pm

    Or because before marriage men treat them differently: GF vs wives. One is still to be pursued, the other is not. Wife is a possession now, therefor husband can ‘relax’ and does not need to show her as much interest as he did with the GF. Big mistake.

41. 

    biblicalgenderroles

    October 24, 2015 at 4:05 pm

    Jeff,

    I actually think very differently on this.

    Only because we live in a “dating culture” in modern times would we even think in these terms. Before the modern “romantic era” men did not pursue women.

    In Biblical times you had the betrothal and then marriage. A man did not have to earn a woman’s affection or her love, he simply approached her father and if her father thought he could care for his daughter properly and pay the bride price then he would come back at a future point and take her to be his wife and he prepared a home for her. Often times couples saw each other little or not at all during this betrothal period and it would require a divorce for man to break the betrothal(so it was much more binding then engagements are today).

    The woman’s affection and love was due to her husband on day one when they finally met on the day their marriage would be consummated. No wedding ceremony, no modern concept of what we call “romance”, they went into a room and had sex with witnesses outside the door(or outside the tent). Yes – a woman had sex with a man she may have not never met, or just seen on a few occasions. If that is not duty sex – I don’t know what is, but it was honored by God and society. The wedding feast(the early equivalent of our Wedding reception) only occurred after the couple had sex and consummated the marriage.

    The women was expected to cultivate a love and affection to her husband, not because he had earned it, but because it was her duty. The husband was expected to provide for his wife and give her sex as well not because she had to earn, but because it was his duty to so.

    Sounds really unromantic by our modern understanding doesn’t? But this was God’s way.

    So there really was no pursuit of a woman before marriage in many instances of marriage for most of the history of mankind.

    The entire modern paradigm we have today where a man “pursues” a woman and convinces her through emotional means that he is the best man for her is a relatively new phenomenon and in my opinion it makes marriage start on a very shift foundation – emotion, rather than duty and commitment. In previous times marriage started with duty and commitment and the emotional aspect of it came later.

    This is why so many marriages today end up as “unequal yokes” because most of our marriages are founded on pure emotion and how they made each other “feel” versus the actual compatibility of the man and woman in question.

    Don’t get me wrong – I am preaching this directly to myself! In both my marriages(my first and second) I allowed myself to be swept up in the emotion and I did not allow myself to see the blatant incompatibilities in both women I married. When I was a young man I did not see the “princess” mentality that my first wife had which eventually lead to her having affairs on me and eventually having to file for divorce. In my second marriage(which I am still in) I was definitely looking for someone who did not have the princess mentality(which my second wife does not have). My second wife had a much stronger commitment to her church and a much better character in many ways than my first wife but I saw the feminism in her and naively thought I could tame it. Again though – I was caught up in the emotion of our relationship.

    My point in all this is – I don’t think whatever we did in our dating relationship should be the foundation of how we have a good marriage – that was all based in emotion, not duty and commitment. Our love and every kind action we take toward our spouse(either as husband or wife) must be based in our duty and commitment to God and them. Everything must flow from that. Should a husband show interest in his wife? Absolutely! He should talk to her on a daily basis and do his best to understand her concerns and fears, and even listen closely for her wants and desires. Then he can address her needs because he knows them. He can also address her “wants” at his discretion based on the principles of correlation, discipline and grace.

42. 

    Rollo Tomassi

    October 24, 2015 at 4:24 pm

    This is exactly the fear the Feminine Imperative finds it easy to condition into Christian Beta men.

    Most Christian men are guilty of showing too much interest in their wives, too much clinginess, and are too preoccupied with the maintenance of their always-working-on-it relationships.

    III. You shall make your mission, not your woman, your priority

    Forget all those romantic cliches of the leading man proclaiming his undying love for the woman who completes him. Despite whatever protestations to the contrary, women do not want to be “The One” or the center of a man’s existence. They in fact want to subordinate themselves to a worthy man’s life purpose, to help him achieve that purpose with their feminine support, and to follow the path he lays out. You must respect a woman’s integrity and not lie to her that she is “your everything”. She is not your everything, and if she is, she will soon not be anymore.

43. 

    Rollo Tomassi

    October 24, 2015 at 4:32 pm

    Perfect love doesn’t generate tingles.

    What’s more powerful, controlling and abusive, a man who understands how a woman’s nature works and uses that to both their advantages, or a woman who controls and abuses a man by rewarding or punishing him for her desired behavior with her sexuality while he’s committed to a lifetime with her?

44. 

    biblicalgenderroles

    October 24, 2015 at 4:40 pm

    Jeff,

    I agree with this author that women need to “accept and embrace their own sensuality and sexuality”. It does require a woman to look past her religious and social conditioning that often times tells women they should not like or desire sex at all. If a wife has no desire for sex whatsoever and looks at it only as some “dirty duty” she must perform that is not a right or healthy attitude toward sex on her part. Her husband needs to guide her in the Scriptures and show her the biological fact that God gave her a clitoris for one reason and one reason only. It serves no other purpose than for her to enjoy sex(and no I am not saying that is the only erogenous area on a woman, but it is the only part of a woman’s body that is there only for sexual pleasure).

    However – even when women do “accept and embrace their own sensuality and sexuality” that does not translate into the fact that they will desire sex as often as their husbands. So even with a woman who has healthy and right view of her own sexuality as well as her husbands she will sometimes need to have sex that at least starts from a place of obligation rather than actual sexual desire. Perhaps as the sex goes on she may actually find herself enjoying it and desiring it. But there will be times that even as the sex continues she is still not be physically desiring it and that is OK. A woman just needs to train herself that in these instances she needs to fake her pleasure for the benefit of her husband. But even when a woman fakes it with her husband – she can still receive emotional pleasure from giving her husband physical pleasure if she allows herself to do so.

45. 

    biblicalgenderroles

    October 24, 2015 at 4:54 pm

    Rollo,

    I agree with you, that a man’s mission is to be his top priority, not his woman.

    I wrote two posts on this – the second one builds on the first one.
    https://biblicalgenderroles.com/2015/09/24/the-five-biblical-priorities-of-a-christian-man/
    https://biblicalgenderroles.com/2015/09/24/what-should-a-christian-mans-highest-priority-be/

    So for instance at times a man’s work responsibilities will be his top priority. But if his wife were rushed to the ER then he leaves his work and his wife becomes his top priority in that instance, because a true need exists.

    I talk a lot about “design” on this blog. I say that based on the Biblical design of man that God made him to go out and work and make his mark on the world. Men are made to be conquers, explorers, engineers, builders and soldiers. A man will not find his God given purpose fulfilled in the domestic duties of the home or spending the majority of his time raising children. A woman is designed by God to find her purpose and her joy in supporting her man, and raising and caring for his children and his home while he goes out and conquers his world.

    So our primary role as men is to be the men God design us to be – find something your are passionate about and do it will all your might. But we must realize that as part of our mission, God does not want us to care for the needs of our wives and children. That does mean spending time with them, talking with them and hearing their concerns just as God hears are our prayers. But its all about balance, and as I state in those two posts it is truly a juggling act.

46. 

    Jeff

    October 24, 2015 at 4:57 pm

    BGR, back in those days, men acquired wives the way the acquired cattle. The cattle’s desires and needs did not matter.

    If you want to have a vibrant sex life in marriage, you will have to engage your emotions. I know that sounds scary to many men, but everything you do is already emotion-based, you just don’t realize it. The crux is to understand your emotions and regulate them in a way that deepens your marital bond and improves your marriage.

    If you want a cold and begrudging duty sex, though, then seeing and treating your wife as an object whose duty it is to fulfill your needs is the way to go.

    All I’m saying is that there is a balance and it is achievable. Your and your wife’s emotions are not your enemy — if properly cultivated, they are the essential glue that makes the duty and responsibility of your union a good thing for *both* of you, as opposed to drudging misery for one or both.

    Rollo, healthy emotional and sexual bonds within marriage have little to do with clinginess. Clinginess is not attractive, obviously, and should be avoided. But healthy affection and love are not clingy, and are essential in marriage.

    I would agree that a man needs a mission in life, and that his wife should not be it. A healthy human person does not make another his or her “mission.” But healthy relationships require positive emotional give-and-take. You cannot do marriage without it. (Well, you can, but it’s gonna be miserable for at least one side.)

47. 

    Dragonfly

    October 24, 2015 at 5:28 pm

    I like both of their approaches, too, Liz. They both really understand it well from different sides of the coin in my opinion. They’re both good men and doing good work.

48. 

    Rollo Tomassi

    October 24, 2015 at 6:52 pm

    @Jeff, “Christian” women find the manosphere irresistible because it gives them the tingles and indignation their ‘safe’ christian-beta husbands and boyfriends don’t provide them with.

    Christian men are far too ready to overextended themselves with emotionalism, comfort, rapport and anything else they believe will maintain their wives’ and/or chaste girlfriends’ sustained interest in them. They’ve been taught to defer to and respect women by default because when your potential wife is your only ordained sexual release their lives and happiness literally depend on their wives’ appeasement.

    They are pre-whipped by their own doing, and their wives are put into a state of being emotional extortionists over them. Some exploit this, most are uncomfortable in being ‘his everything’.

    So when their wives discover the manosphere or TRP they find men who don’t defer to them and call them out on every ego-investment they’ve ever had with their husbands’ expected appeasements. And that’s exciting, they’ve finally encountered men who tell them “no” instead of “yes dear” and they can’t get enough of it.

    It’s been my long experience that Christian men are taught to maintain very adolescent social skill sets with their wives. Most never ‘date’ enough to gain the experience necessary to make valid assessments of women’s natures and behaviors. These men have been taught to believe that their Beta providership, their virtuousness and conviction is what women will find ‘sexy’ and then wonder why all it’s led them to is a sexless, or sex-grudgingly, marriage.

    Emotionalism and husbandly comfort and rapport is something they have in spades. That’s why adopting a more Alpha mindset and attitude is an uncomfortable concept for them. They don’t dare rock the comfort boat. They fear any deviation or experiment that might even peripherally lead to their wives’ displeasure will set them on a path to divorce – a divorce they stand to lose everything they’ve built in.

    But that fear conflicts with their need for sex, their sexless marriages and all of the appeasement advice they’ve received from their overly-feminized ‘Christian’ counsellors. Their greater problem isn’t maintaining their caring, overemphasized Beta sentimentality (they were raised to be this way), their problem is reinventing themselves in an Alpha state that their wives will find both believable and arousing.

    Up the Alpha

    I’ve written this before, but it bears repeating: for men wanting to change their lives and relationships, working up from Beta to Alpha is a far tougher road to hoe that tempering Alpha dominance with a personalized touch of Beta. As bad as Hugo Schwyzer is in his abject feminization, have a read of a few of the female commenters in this article. How many of the simpering, socially conditioned, Betatized men these women seeth about would make for believable Alphas once they had a red pill epiphany? It is precisely because of this impressionistic, binary solipsism that women will never be happy with ‘fixing’ their Beta. This is why he has to Just Get It on his own.

    It is a far better proposition to impress a woman with an organic Alpha dominance – Alpha can only be a man’s dominant personality origin. There is no Beta with a side of Alpha because that side of Alpha is NEVER believable when your overall perception is one of being Beta to begin with. This is why I stress Alpha traits above all else. It’s easy, and endearing to ‘reveal’ a flash of Beta sensitivity when a woman perceives you as predominantly Alpha. If your personality is predominantly Beta, any sporadic flashes of Alpha will seem like emotional tantrums at best, character flaws at worst.

    Women may love the Beta, but they only respect the Alpha.

49. 

    Jeff

    October 24, 2015 at 6:56 pm

    Rollo:

    Negotiations will get you nowhere. Genuine desire and sexual response is never based on a process of agreed upon terms.

    That’s a good point. But genuine desire and female sexual response are also not based on fear and insecurity.

    I agree with many of your observations, but your overall adversarial approach to male-female relationship is to make / exacerbate gender wars. Love and war (fear) are incompatible. An adversarial approach like the one you promote leads, at best, to compliance.

    If achieving compliance in marriage is your thing, then it’ll probably work for you. If you want more, then you have to rise above the fear, control, and primitive dominance tactics. They only reveal your insecurity anyway, and women can see through that easily. Don’t fool yourself, you won’t get genuine attraction from that.

50. 

    Jeff

    October 24, 2015 at 6:59 pm

    BGR, Frankly Speaking has posts about “duty sex” as well.

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