99 responses to “How the modern practice of “Christian dating” is cruel to men”

1. 

   anon

   December 16, 2015 at 6:50 pm

   I agree with the premise: Emotional intimacy without physical intimacy is cruel to men.

   But what does full abstinence look like in practice? How do you get to know someone without getting emotionally close to them? Isn’t emotional intimacy something that occurs naturally when you spend time with someone?

2. 

   biblicalgenderroles

   December 16, 2015 at 7:11 pm

   Anon,

   Well in Bible times and for most of history men and women really did not get to know each other that well before marriage. They simply knew the big checkboxes that were checked off – both same religion and economically it was a good fit. Emotional and physical intimacy and to a great extent getting to know one another came AFTER marriage, not before.

   I think keeping it very formal and keeping them around family and others and not allowing them to be alone is a good start. Even when they talk the conversations should be limited to think about their beliefs on various issues and general life goals.

   The way to stop or at least reduce the chances of too emotional intimacy growing is that they do not text one another or call one another or speak to each other outside the presence of family members. I know that sounds harsh but that is exactly how courtship used to be.

   The way emotional intimacy grows is when a man and woman share the details of their days, when they are feeling sad, when they had a bad day and when they had a good day. It also happens when they share sad and happy events from their pasts. As a man and woman begin to share the stories of their lives emotional intimacy grows and as emotional intimacy grows the desire for physical intimacy will grow right along with it. It is only human nature.

   All the generations before this past century understood this basic fact of human nature and they took steps to account for it by limiting male/female interactions before marriage.

   Today we think we are smarter and “move evolved” and we can handle these things and use self control. Bibically and logically speaking this is just pure non-sense.

3. 

   Missionary to Mexico

   December 16, 2015 at 10:21 pm

   Why didn’t I know these things before I got married?! I certainly have not heard any church in the U.S. teach these things!

   My wife and I met via the internet. I chose her because I thought we were compatible spiritually. Both of us were very involved in ministry, not just attending church services.

   However, one of her excuses for refusing to have sexual relations with me now is that we did not know each other well enough before we got married. How often have you heard this?

   Her pastor, her youngest son, and her two sisters met me and approved of me before we got married. In August she told me that she never loved me with romantic love, which is another reason why she does not want to have sex with me now. She says I should have married a younger woman than her (I am over eight years older than her).

   I fear that too many people who call themselves Christians are being led by their feelings and not by the Word of God. What ever happened to the teaching of living our lives in obedience to the Lord, whether we feel like it or not? But then, if many pastors taught this, they might lose a lot of members of their congregation. How could they pay for the costs of the building and have enough to feed their families then?

   Thanks, BGR, for this teaching! We need a lot more of it!

4. 

   biblicalgenderroles

   December 16, 2015 at 10:49 pm

   You may hear these teachings in a few small conservative Bible preaching churches. But the key word is “small”. Most churches in our culture do not grow larger by preaching MORE of the Scriptures – they grow larger by teaching LESS of Scriptures.

   The teachings of Biblical gender roles, Biblical dating(courtship) and Biblical marriage all hit people right where they live and Pastors are scared to death to tread in these areas. So they go around them or they touch on them in such a surface way that it does little to affect the lives of their congregation.

   This is difficult to teach not only in our churches but also in our families. The culture is so ingrained against this kind of thinking. We have a culture that is based almost completely on feelings. Whatever feels good – do it. You want to date and be alone – then you should do that because it feels good to be alone with that person. You want to touch them before marriage – go ahead if it feels good. You want to marry them because it feels good – great! Do it.

   And while you are married if you want to have sex with them because you feel like it – great do that to.
   If you don’t feel like having sex – then don’t.

   If you don’t feel the romance anymore – get a divorce.

   This is how insane the world looks when it is run by emotion, and not by obedience, commitment and duty to our creator.

5. 

   Missionary to Mexico

   December 16, 2015 at 11:14 pm

   Correct, BGR!

   But how insane does the church look to the world when professing Christians are led by emotion, and not by obedience, commitment and duty to our Creator?

6. 

   Dragonfly

   December 16, 2015 at 11:37 pm

   So interesting BGR!

   I actually don’t believe most Christian women are as innocent as Sarah was in that story of not understanding what sexual tension does to a man. We know. We REALLY know. And it’s horrible but we actually enjoy leveraging that sexual tension in our favor, even if we’re pure and a virgin. I was a virgin and grew up very well protected (people call that “sheltered” lol), and had a healthy view of sex, but I still knew the power that I had sexually with my husband, and we didn’t even have that long of an engagement – just six months. But I still think 6 months was too long for us (because of how emotionally intimate we already were).

   That sexual power that women have is incredible if they know and understand how to leverage it. When I was a freshman in college, I immediately had a lot of guys pursuing me even in the week of orientation. Turning men down or keeping them as friends was something that became part of my existence. So I became extremely aware of how powerful that is, especially when you’re also kind-hearted, it’s almost like you’re even more valuable to more types of men.

   But you’re right that young women (and old women) love that pre-marital dating period because of all the romance… they’re addicted to it. But what brings them that romance? It’s the power from the sexiness that they use to leverage over men. If they lose that power – by not being able to draw him in emotionally (get him emotionally hooked on them), they lose out on all the expensive fun dates, the romantic nights doing whatever she wants to do, being treated like a real life princess, etc.

   The majority of Christian women might be opposed to this kind of method because of a variety of reasons, even though I think it would work most of the time, especially in preventing pre-marital sex. The way it would really work best would be if there was a whole community who operated this way – kind of like the Amish (I’m sure they still do something very similar with their dating practices, it’d be interesting to look into). I definitely don’t agree with how they live without electricity and things, but it’d be fascinating to learn how they pair off, what are their practices for that, etc.?

   My husband and I briefly talked about your post, and his main concern was how the young man would be able to be sure that he’d know the woman enough to actually marry her. He said that dating – one of it’s main purposes was for getting to know the other person. But we both agree with your post, just don’t completely understand how it would work in modern day and with the way women are raised (Christian women even) you have to REALLY know a person before marrying them.

   We feel completely the same way about avoiding long engagements, and agree with the emotional intimacy being too close to that of marriage to be “healthy” for an unmarried couple.

   We ourselves got married so young and so quickly in MAJOR part because my parents were going to force me to finish my degree (which was about 4 more years because of grad school), and I didn’t want to live without him, but I also didn’t want to live in sin.

   We had friends that were very religious that just gave up being pure and moved in together!!!! That is not what we wanted to do, even though many people (including my husband’s own family) told us to do just that. We also had friends that were so emotionally close that they were together ALL THE TIME, drove each other’s cars during their relationship, and were constantly almost living together in that they ate together all the time and cuddled in bed together. A lot of those kinds of relationships that we saw broke up due to the sexual tension driving them crazy and causing fights. These were good Christians trying to follow God – not heathen kids.

   So yes! I agree with probably the majority if not all of your post.

7. 

   Dragonfly

   December 16, 2015 at 11:50 pm

   Also, my husband was a Christian, but he’d had sex before with multiple women (born into Catholicism but no relationship with Christ). So when he saw me at a BBQ (again, before college even started!), he fell in love with me, and could not take his eyes off me, and at that time he wasn’t completely right with God, but he knew there was something different about me. The other women he’d been with before he admitted to me later, he was just using for sex, and all he thought about was getting sex from women. But with me he wasn’t like that for some reason – he thought I was pure and innocent, which in a way I was, but I was still very aware of the sexual tension I could cause and how that could be used to control a man’s time, emotions, and even money.

   So yea, even a good Christian girl is very much aware of her sexual power.

8. 

   AnnaMS

   December 17, 2015 at 4:34 am

   I’ll pass my thoughts on as requested, but I do feel very inadequate responding to this post simply because I am a woman. I discussed this with my husband (who has counseled numerous men and heard testimonies from others), but I know I am still far from the expert.

   First, I’d say that there is a difference between thinking sexual thoughts and actually acting on them. In our relationship, my husband struggled periodically in his thought life about me. He never copped a feel or anything like that. I think they are both sin, but I think that an impure thought life does a lot less damage in a relationship than acting on them. When he shared that he was struggling, I was able to pray for him and do whatever it took to make it easier. Had he grabbed my body inappropriately, that would have been a lot harder for me. I think the way ‘Sarah’ responded here was good, but I’m guessing a lot of women wouldnt’ respond this way. I think you’d see a broad spectrum ranging from anger, a feeling of being violated, or guilt for being a stumbling block for someone else.

   Secondly, I have never met any ‘Jonathans’ in my life. I’m sure there are some, but I’m guessing they are not your average guy. And I’m not trying to be unkind to BGR, his son, or anyone else, I’ve known sexual abusers, porn addicts, people who struggled with lust outside of porn, people who slipped up and ended up in bed with someone, and people who struggled with a desire to rape. None of these people were randomly grabbing butts or boobs. I hope that after ‘Jonathan’ does marry, he won’t grab his wife’s boob in public just cuz it’s now okay to touch it. When Tobias kisses me in our apartment, his hands go wherever they want to. When he kisses me in public, they don’t. Has he wanted to? Sure, but he didn’t. So this begs the question, where does a couple draw the line? Obviously remaining pure in private is harder than in public. And as I said previously, couples need to decide this for themselves. I don’t think that there is one guideline that applies to every couple. There is one rule (purity) but because of different circumstances and struggles, different couples need different standards. Our standards changed as our relationship progressed. If ‘Jonathan’ truly cannot keep his hands to himself, than something needs to be done. If he is already in a committed relationship, inviting more accountability and making stricter standards is a good idea. Likely not kissing will be a good place to start for him. Taking Sarah to dinner is probably not going to make or break his struggle with lust, but if that truly is a factor, than he can cut back on that. He can have dates with her that are more focused on getting to know the person instead of getting overly emotionally intimate. If he’s not in a relationship, this would be a good time to step back and work on some things. Sexual struggles do not only happen in relationships. Single people struggle with lust and porn all the time. So it’s not like his problems only surfaced with Sarah and will go away when she does. This is also why I dont’ think distance is the answer.You say that the Bible’s solution is to marry but than would condemn Jonathan for marrying before the 2 years were up, so that seems kinda contradictory. If God’s solution is to marry than freaking marry, we have no business saying they shouldn’t. Assuming that they as a couple were able to provide for the family, I would advise getting married sooner…or in his case, a lot sooner. If he has nothing going for him career wise and she has no reason to think he will soon, than maybe getting into a relationship at this point wasn’t a good idea. You say that Sarah wants to enjoy this engagement time, but that gets old very quickly. Give her a few months and she’ll be good. Outside of weird bridezilla that takes years to plan the perfect wedding (which causes a whole host of issues on its own and is probably not a good quality in a wife). Like Dragonfly, i was engaged for 6 months and was ready for it at least 2 months sooner.

   When I made my comment previously that you said in some part prompted this post, I mentioned that I didn’t know of anybody that I thought would need to end their relationship d/t their struggles. Most if not all of them were struggling to think pure thoughts, but they weren’t all of a sudden finding their hands on a boob. So I don’t think that following what I was saying previously will result in tons of men ending their engagements.

   Thirdly, while I agree with short engagements, I don’t think that relationships should be as impersonal in the dating stage. There are important conversations that men have a vested interest in having (sexual denial anybody???), that are difficult to have with Dad and Mom in the room. Also, if I can’t trust my husband to be alone with me when I’m not making advances, how is he going to handle it when a prostitute approaches him or when another woman makes a sexual advance? A lot of people say this sounds good, but their relationship didn’t look that way and they’re probably glad it didn’t. It’s easy as married women to say we agree with this after we are done being romanced by a guy in the dating stages. It’s easy to say you don’t really need to know a guy/girl that well after marrying someone who you already do know well. If you want an example of a Biblical romance, read Song of Solomon (1-4 is prior to marriage). It doesn’t resemble modern dating or the impersonal approach you mention.

   Finally, you bring up Jacob and Rachel. I don’t think this is a good argument either way. Yeah, they didn’t spend a lot of time together most likely, but i’m guessing Jacob still struggled in his thought life with her. Studies done on porn show that images people see stay in their memories for a long time (dont’ remember the specifics, but longer than 7 years to be sure). I’m sure Jacob fantasized, remembered Rachel’s beauty, and struggled with lust. You say a lot of marriages were done this way in the Bible, and I agree, but a lot of marriages also sucked. Hard core sucked. Not sure Jacob and Rachel are the model I want for my marriage. It sounded like there was rivalry from day one that affected the entire family. Yes, Jacob preferred Rachel cuz she was hot….last I checked that didn’t work out too well for her.

9. 

   Dragonfly

   December 17, 2015 at 2:17 pm

   AnnaMS – “You say that the Bible’s solution is to marry but than would condemn Jonathan for marrying before the 2 years were up, so that seems kinda contradictory. If God’s solution is to marry than freaking marry, we have no business saying they shouldn’t. Assuming that they as a couple were able to provide for the family, I would advise getting married sooner…or in his case, a lot sooner. If he has nothing going for him career wise and she has no reason to think he will soon, than maybe getting into a relationship at this point wasn’t a good idea.”

   ^^This though, is why we got married so young and weren’t ready financially! What were we supposed to do? My parent’s wanted me to wait for years, my husband wasn’t ready with his job or house yet, but everyone encouraged us to just live in sin – or wait for so many years that we probably wouldn’t have ended up together (or would have fallen into sin).

   I actually got kicked out of my house for being engaged to my husband. It wasn’t that my parents hated him personally, they loved and adored him before the engagement. He tried to ask them for my hand but they wouldn’t even see him about it. Our marriage has been so blessed and wonderful – it is CLEAR that this was a good thing and a good marriage to have. My parents adore and love him, he is a better man and father to boys than even my own father was!!! They admire him so much now and think he’s a wise man 😀

   My point is that our society is all messed up in the way it goes about marriage now – it is SET UP for failure. People used to be better prepared for adulthood while they were in their mid-teens! So men were able to marry and support their wives much earlier (that and women also tended to marry men older and more accomplished as well). Now, teens and even young 20’s both men and women, are usually NOT ready emotionally and definitely not ready financially to jump into a marriage and family situation. But it’s still the ideal timing – that part of our biology and sexual urges hasn’t changed at all! So then you have tons of Christian couples burning up in lust, but unable to get married due to their parents not supporting it, and the young adults themselves not really being “adults.”

   Hope that helps clear up what I think BGR was saying as well… I don’t think my husband and I had major character flaws that contributed to us not being able to wait for years and years as we both finished school, I think the whole system was flawed and so in our situation, we couldn’t “win.” Obviously, I think we actually did “win” but many people still think like you and believe we should have waited and had no business marrying that young. If it was a different time, my husband may have been some kind of apprentice in his teens, and then had a great job by the time he wanted to marry me (lol at the thought of living in a different time).

10. 

    biblicalgenderroles

    December 17, 2015 at 3:28 pm

    Dragonfly,

    On the issue of marry young, and the Scriptures exhortation that “it is better to marry than to burn”.

    If the exact situation that happened with you and your husband arose with my daughter I would not be excited about the fact that this young man she wants to marry does not have a job yet where he could provide for my daughter. I would probably not approve and tell them they needed to wait.

    In fact I might tell them that they need some time apart. If my daughter was attending a local college(which is the only places I would like her to go, not off some place away from her home) – I ask her to drop out or go to another school so she would not be tempted to see him there on campus.

    I would tell him “young man if you really love my daughter – she will be here waiting for you in two years when you have finished your degree and you have a job that can support her”. Now I would completely disagree with your Dad that this had anything to do with you finishing your degree, that is irrelevant. If my daughter meets a senior when she is a freshman and wants to marry him after he graduates and gets his first job I have NO problem with her dropping out marrying him and starting a family.

    But I also respect that my daughter will be an adult. If she chooses to run off and marry the guy without my blessing than I will still love her and fully accept her and this young man and do everything in my power to help them get off on the right foot. There would be no animosity or mistreatment.

    I completely understand where you and your hubby were coming from and I have known many Christians that have made exactly the same decision you did for the same reason and God has richly blessed their marriage. But I believe as parents it is our job to hold to a high standard and God’s standard is that a man must be able to provide for a wife before he takes one.

    I believe when the Bible is saying “it is better to marry than to burn” this is not throwing out God’s requirement that a man must be able to provide for a family as Christ does for his Church BEFORE his marries a woman.

    Again I don’t say any of this in judgement of you or your husband. I married my first wife when I was 19. I worked in factory and was going to college and was able to support her in a little apartment – we did not have much, but we did ok for two teenagers.

11. 

    Dragonfly

    December 17, 2015 at 3:47 pm

    I understand BGR! My husband did have a job, and was working all through his college… he only had a year left with the degree he was pursuing at that time, but even if he had had a job, my parents still wouldn’t have been for our marriage back then. They were adament that I also have a degree, much for the same reasons that AnnaMS believes women should have a degree to fall back on – they did not want me at all, to be dependent on a man. I know they were looking out for my best interest, but my husband was fine supporting us, we both ended up working (I got a job shortly before getting kicked out) and were fine in an apartment after marriage, so it wasn’t like he was some bum that had no plans, no motivation, and no job at all. He was working his butt off AND attending college full-time, and he still managed to purchase a beautiful engagement ring. The wedding band was a ring that i happened to have already that matched the simplicity of the engagement ring 🙂 I don’t want to betray him badly here!! We were more than able to support ourselves that first year, and I was able to get tons of grants and scholarships to finish my education later on.

12. 

    biblicalgenderroles

    December 17, 2015 at 4:01 pm

    AnnaMS,

    Your Statement:

    “Secondly, I have never met any ‘Jonathans’ in my life. I’m sure there are some, but I’m guessing they are not your average guy. And I’m not trying to be unkind to BGR, his son, or anyone else, I’ve known sexual abusers, porn addicts, people who struggled with lust outside of porn, people who slipped up and ended up in bed with someone, and people who struggled with a desire to rape. None of these people were randomly grabbing butts or boobs.”

    There are a lot more “Jonathans” than you realize out there. Moving the hand to the breast might take more gumption, but a man sliding his hand from the small of a woman’s back to her bottom is VERY easy to have happen.

    I realize you are judging things based off your experience dating your husband or other men you dated but let me assure you that the “Jonathan” I describe is very real and very common among men.

    I do thank you that you acknowledge the fact at the beginning of this comment that you may not fully understand how men operate in this area because you are woman. I believe that this type of the acknowledgement is actually the first step to a woman actually coming to an honest understanding of male nature.

    Let me assure you many men are not honest with themselves about their own natures. I can’t tell you how many times where in Christian men’s groups we have sat around discussing sexual temptation and Christian men are SO dishonest with themselves about their own nature and feelings. Christian men often try to convince themselves that they are “gentlemen” that Christian women want them to be.

    “I can kiss and feel no temptation for my hands to go elsewhere” is usually how it starts out. Then by the end of the conversation when they hear other men open up about their true feelings that same man admits he has had the same thoughts and feelings.

    My point in the post was – a man should not be put in that place in the first place. I stand by my assertion that our system of modern dating puts men in a very cruel position. It allows the woman to feel the emotional intimacy that marriage offers while denying the man the physical intimacy he so craves. God NEVER meant for half measures. Both the emotional intimacy and physical intimacy that occur between a man and a woman in marriage are for marriage ONLY.

    What you are describing is what men are told all the time – “Men just need to be more civilized, men just need to be more self-controlled”. Yet women are allowed to get all the emotional intimacy they want from men while dating. This is not how God designed pre-marital relationships to be.

    As to Song of Songs 1- 4:

    This is not describing dating. They did not date before they married. This is describing sexual fantasy! These are the thoughts and desires that an engaged couple might have toward one another before their wedding night. It is a beautiful picture of the sexual fantasies of a groom to be and a bride to be. No pre-marital intimacy here whatsoever.

    On the issue of Jacob and Rachel.

    So what if Jacob fantasized about having sex with Rachel? I am sure he did many times. There is no sin in that. Lust is not sexual fantasy or wondering what a girl looks like naked. Lust is not finding someone sexually desirable. It is about desiring to have sex with them outside of marriage.

    Any man who tells me he never fantasized about having sex with his wife before they were married is either gay or asexual if simply lying to himself or others. Now I realize a lot of men do fantasize about sex with their wife to be before marriage but they condemn themselves for doing so and constantly ask God to forgive them. This is because of the false teachings of many churches on the issue of lust.

    This is why we need to teach the truth about Biblical sexuality and take men to the same Song of Songs 1-4 that you cite and show them that sexual fantasy before marriage IS not only normal and right – but it is approved and sanctioned by God himself.

    Jacob’s marriage to Rachel was not without its troubles – but what marriage is not? I think we tend to think marriage sucked before our modern “enlightenment” about how marriages should be. But I think you find that most arranged marriages were indeed happy because they were not based on feelings – but duty and commitment. Then their feelings grew as a result of their duty and commitment to each other.

13. 

    Dragonfly

    December 17, 2015 at 4:08 pm

    ^Not trying to confuse up there, when I said “even if he had had a job,” I meant even if he had had a *career* kind of job. He was working and supporting himself through college, and able to support me when we got married, but he didn’t have his career yet. Most people we knew were against us marrying because neither of us had graduated from college yet and had started our careers. Graduation from college = appropriate age and success level to marry for most people… even though that means waiting for years.

    A young couple honestly doesn’t need that much to live off of, I think we even had cable and were able to afford a gym membership those first couple of years! So financially, we were “poor” in income bracket, but hardly even noticed it because our needs were so small and easy to meet.

    We know Pastors of churches who had to do this same thing! Just because a man doesn’t have a college career kind of job (which is what is expected now in our society) doesn’t mean he won’t be able to support a wife. All our furniture was given to us, and we had my husband’s truck to get around in.

    We know many Pastors who married very young, while still in school, and before they had their “real” job that did fine in the end – the first years were extremely lean times for them and their wife, but overall, I think it helped them create a better marriage that wasn’t founded on materialism and greed.

14. 

    biblicalgenderroles

    December 17, 2015 at 4:18 pm

    Dragonfly,

    I hope you realize I was not meaning to condemn you or your husband. If I did than I would have to condemn myself – I have not always lived up to many of the things that I believe the Scriptures teach and when I was younger I did not even know or understand many of them as I do now.

    But I do think that we as parents and the church should hold up a high standard for marriage. Men should work and prepare for a family before trying to date and take on a wife.

    Now yes if I had to choose between my child having sex outside of marriage or them marrying and not being as financially prepared as they should be I would definitely err on the side of them not having sex outside of marriage and the financial issues would be secondary to that.

15. 

    Dragonfly

    December 17, 2015 at 4:26 pm

    And contrast that example to couples we’ve known who did choose to wait until they had careers, MOST of them failed sexually to stay pure 😦 And the very few who did stay pure that waited for 4-5 years to get married, have built their marriage foundation on pursuing the love of money – not that money is bad, but they chose to center their entire life around it under the guise of being “financially prepared.”

    One of my girlfriends that did this told me that she never could have done what I did, and married without being financially “set” – this meaning far more than a man just being able to provide for a wife… This financially “set” phrase is mostly based on materialism and greed in my opinion. She ended up marrying someone she wasn’t even physically attracted to (he was overweight and she complained about it all the time to him and to me) and constantly harped on him to change many different things about him. I tried to warn her all through their 5 year relationship that she needed to pick someone she already was attracted to and accepted as he was, but she never listened and it actually ended up ruining our friendship (that I kept trying to call her out on it). So why did she marry him? He was a Christian man making lots of money, and she was also making lots of money as a business woman, so together they would be very financially “set.” I do hope that their marriage works out, but the way that she chose someone she wasn’t that into, felt ok disrespecting etc. I’m worried with how she may treat him now that they’re married.

16. 

    biblicalgenderroles

    December 17, 2015 at 4:41 pm

    Dragonfly,

    I agree 100% with you. Being able to support family does not mean having the ability to have two new cars and big fancy house. A little one bedroom apartment with a fridge to put your food in means you can support a wife.

    Now obviously you can’t raise a family in a one bedroom apartment. So if the guy has no way to support get you into a home that could support the needs of a family in a few years that would be a problem.

    On the issue of age of marriage. You are describing the Church where I met my first wife to a tee!

    In that Church the minimum acceptable marriage age was 22. That was because you both had to finish your degree before it was acceptable for you to get married. I had a factory job and married my first wife at 19 and a lot of people gave us grief over that decision.

    I plan on writing on the topics of equality and education in the future. I believe that America and Western civilization worships these two idols. We sacrifice our faith and everything else on the altars of education and equality. Education can be a good thing – but it can also be an idol and in far too many churches and homes we have turned education into an idol that we center our lives around and everything is sacrificed in it’s service.

    I actually believe like you that we need to bring back apprenticeship programs in lieu of higher education. Not everyone is meant for higher education and we need skilled trades.

    The reason we have exploding student debts and college rates is because everyone is being pushed into college. The only reason employers can demand college degrees for every stupid position is because we allow them too.

    Many business jobs would not require degrees if we are honest. Young people could start off as apprentices as teens and work in the job and learn everything they needed to know about the job over several years without ever needing to step foot in college or university.

17. 

    biblicalgenderroles

    December 17, 2015 at 4:58 pm

    Dragonfly,

    Your Statement:

    “And contrast that example to couples we’ve known who did choose to wait until they had careers, MOST of them failed sexually to stay pure 😦 And the very few who did stay pure that waited for 4-5 years to get married, have built their marriage foundation on pursuing the love of money – not that money is bad, but they chose to center their entire life around it under the guise of being “financially prepared.””

    While I harp on men being financially prepared for a wife on this site quite often – I agree with that many couples abuse the concept of what it means to be financially prepared. As I said in a previous comment – that ability to afford a one bedroom apartment and a refrigerator to put your food in is “financially prepared” enough for me. But then if this were my daughter – I would want to know this young man has a plan in place to get her into a home within a few years so they have a place for their children.

    But what I would have an issue with is if a young man told me that my daughter would have to work for the next 5 to 10 years while they prepared for a family. That would not cut it with me.

    Now on the issue of your friend marrying a man she was not physically attracted to. I don’t necessarily think that is wrong for a woman to do. I know of many Christian women who married a man because he was a very godly Christian and had the ability to provide well and privately admitted to their sisters or girl friends that they were not that physically attracted to him. But you know what – over several years of marriage that changed as their relationship grew.

    I am about to say something I have said rarely but I believe is true and IS very politically incorrect and will have the ladies throwing things at my screen:

    A woman is more capable of becoming attracted over time to a man she was not initially physically attracted to than a man is of a woman he was not physically attracted to.

    This is because men have more visual natures and women have more emotional natures. This is why a woman gaining a lot of weight after marriage affects a man a lot more than a man gaining some weight after marriage affects a woman – his attraction is primarily visually based, and only secondarily emotionally based while her attraction is primarily emotionally based and then only secondarily physically based.

    It is a matter of a woman submitting her heart to God. It sounds as if this woman you describe does not really have her heart submitted to God, but rather she is more concerned about money though.

18. 

    Missionary to Mexico

    December 17, 2015 at 6:27 pm

    Unfortunately, I am now beginning to believe that my wife married me mainly for financial reasons, because she said she has never loved me with romantic love. Besides her having low estrogen, this is one of the reasons that she justifies refusing to have sex with me now.

    As BGR has mentioned, romantic love is not a basis to choose who you will be married to. But, for someone who is led by their feelings rather than what the Word of God says, romantic love is all important. Can God tell us to marry someone even though we are not madly in love with them? I believe that the answer is yes, if we are both wanting to do the Lord’s will with all of our hearts.

    Too much of so-called Christianity today is based on getting our wants and desires met instead of just obeying God regardless of the cost of doing so in spite of our feelings. You will never be a multi-millionare preacher through the tithes and offerings of the people if you constantly preach Luke 9:23, where Jesus said if anyone wants to come after Him that they must deny themselves, take up their cross daily, and follow Him. On the contrary, the most popular type of preaching today says the opposite, that Jesus came to lift up our self-image. This is the type of garbage that my wife believes from watching these multi-millionare preachers on the TBN Spanish affiliate ENLACE, which teaches that Jesus came to make us happy and rich. (They also teach that if we are not rich that there is something wrong with our faith.) I am beginning to believe that I am in an unequally yoked situation!

19. 

    Dragonfly

    December 17, 2015 at 8:05 pm

    “A woman is more capable of becoming attracted over time to a man she was not initially physically attracted to than a man is of a woman he was not physically attracted to. ”

    ^^Yes, I totally agree with this! I find many men attractive that a lot of women probably wouldn’t for some reason! – but I was taught to look for other qualities in men rather than just looks. Humor is sexy, and I’ve found that just a man’s personality can be extremely attractive and a turn on.

    I’m mostly just worried that she will use that as some kind of justification for not having a good sex life with him, or treating him worse than she would treat a man who she viewed as her “equal.” I think for some women, marrying a man they don’t feel very attracted to makes them feel superior to him – kind of like a tool they may use for control. But I’m not completely sure.

20. 

    Dragonfly

    December 17, 2015 at 8:19 pm

    BGR, that Fascinating Girl book that I mentioned before teaches a woman what to look for and cherish in a man while she’s young. It warns against going after men just for their popularity or their looks, and helps them understand what’s actually beneficial and admirable in positive masculinity. It’s wonderful in that it kind of teaches you to look for the best in people in general, but especially in teaching young girls what’s really important concerning a romantic interest and future husband.

    Things like looking beyond his shell into who he really is. Being able to accept a man as he is – setting the marriage up so that the wife doesn’t go into it thinking she’s going to change something about him and then make their life miserable together. It’s a great book… the only part I really didn’t agree with it (if you get it for your daughter) is one place where it tells girls not to befriend other girls who are outcasts or unpopular. The whole book isn’t like that, so I was surprised when I read that – I’ve always befriended everyone, but it warns that if a girl is seen with other undesirable girls, that it will influence the way boys see her and they will associate her with the outcasts. I tried to always be kind to everyone, I think that is the best way to live, so as a pre-teen/teen, I didn’t follow that. But as far as learning how to treat men, become attractive in personality and outwardly, it’s great.

21. 

    biblicalgenderroles

    December 17, 2015 at 8:30 pm

    Dragonfly,

    Your Statement:

    “I’m mostly just worried that she will use that as some kind of justification for not having a good sex life with him, or treating him worse than she would treat a man who she viewed as her “equal.” I think for some women, marrying a man they don’t feel very attracted to makes them feel superior to him – kind of like a tool they may use for control. But I’m not completely sure.”

    Sometimes a woman truly loves a man for his character and his personality and her entire goal in marrying him is be his help meet, build him up and follow him even though she is far better looking or more intelligent.

    But I have seen first hand women that marry men because they want to be worshiped for their beauty or they want a man that they feel is far less intelligent so they run the family.

    This is the mentality of some beautiful women when it comes to their husbands(they may never say it, but they think it):
    “I am a much more beautiful woman than you should have been able to get, you should consider yourself lucky to be in my presence and share the same home as me. If you worship my beauty, do what I say and shower me with gifts and whatever I ask for – occasionally I may grant you the privilege of touching me.”

    There are many a young men that wake up one day after just a couple of years of marriage and realize – “Wow -she actually thinks she did me a favor by marrying me because of her looks.” Now I am not saying that this situation is not salvageable. If the man follows Biblical principles he can confront this princess mentality with Biblical discipline, but its not an easy road.

22. 

    SnapperTrx

    December 17, 2015 at 8:40 pm

    This is a fantastic article! I had been on the practice of telling my kids that, if they are in a relationship, they can expect the emotional attachment to grow as time goes by. As adults looking for marriage that’s fine, you want to grow emotionally with someone you want to marry, but as kids in school it creates a dangerous problem – the exact problem you have pointed out here. A fellow Christian friend, one I respect and enjoy speaking to, just this week told me that Christian men should have no problem avoiding the temptation of sex outside of marriage week into the age of 30+ if they are seeking the Lord. When I told him that sex drive is a biological need in most men he told me that it didn’t matter. I would even venture to say that any Christian woman who realizes this problem but continues to date is cruel and using a man for his resources while offering nothing in return! I know of few women who would turn down gifts of jewelry or trips to dinner and the movies. The mans resources are being consumed for the hopeful promise of someday getting married and having sex, and all the bulwarks placed in the way of! I suppose back when a vote of marriage meant something to Christians you could have the “old fashioned” courtship and trust that, over time, people would learn to love each other through tough times rather than ditch out when they were unhappy or felt that they weren’t getting every they “deserved”. I’m giving this article to friends. Great job!

23. 

    biblicalgenderroles

    December 17, 2015 at 8:49 pm

    Dragonfly,

    I ordered the Fascinating Girl book for my daughter a few days ago for Christmas. I agree with you that girls should befriend girls that are outcasts and unpopular and be kind to them. The only girls I don’t want my daughter hanging out with are those that might encourage her to have sex with boys or get into substance abuse – those girls I want her to say far away from. Let me know if there are other things in the book you disagree with. I totally get that a book can be great but have a few parts we just need to disregard – that happens even with Christian books!

    But I think part of young person growing up is learning how to discern right from wrong, to take the good from something and leave behind the bad.

    I may try to cover this issue of “looks” more in some upcoming posts about young men seeking wives. Because of the equality worshiping world we are in today – we can’t say that looks being more important for man than a woman is ok. It is immediately dismissed as being hypocritical. But it is a matter of the difference in nature and wiring as God has designed us. I won’t apologize for those differences.

    But obviously a man should make his choice of a wife on more than just looks. Jacob allowed himself to love Rachel based on two primary characteristics – she was kin and she was beautiful. His father wanted him to marry within his kin and she was the first and most beautiful woman he could find among his kin. To me in modern terms if that means if a man says she has to be a Christian and she has to be beautiful to me those are two great criteria to judge a woman by. Obviously as I said in a previous post you have to also dive into the “kind” of Christian that she is – but you get my point.

24. 

    biblicalgenderroles

    December 17, 2015 at 9:14 pm

    SnapperTrx,

    I have run into those Christians too – both men and women that act as if a man should be able to carry on long term and emotionally intimate relationships with a woman and as long as he is close to the Lord he would not be sexually tempted.

    This is the equivalent of saying if you keep close to the Lord while dating he will remove your male nature and only give it back to you when you get married. It is utterly absurd!

    I can understand a woman thinking this way – since she does not have the nature of a man. A woman has a much easier time of carrying on an emotionally intimate relationship with a man without allowing it to become physical. In fact as I pointed out in the post – most of a woman’s relationship needs can be fulfilled without anything physical needing to happen beyond a hug or a peck on the lips. Give them that and most women are fine.

    But when a man says this and actually believes this – he is deceiving himself and setting himself up for a major fall.

    And even if a woman can have this kind of emotional relationship apart from physical intimacy – it is NOT what God intended. It is cruel to a man to do such a thing.

    Modern Christian dating is the equivalent of “emotional prostitution”.

    Many young Christian women whether consciously or unconsciously doing so use young men to meet their emotional needs while ignoring their physical needs in the exact same way that some men ignore women’s emotional needs and simply use them for sex.

    But in the Christian world – we nail young men for trying to have sex with girls outside of marriage but we say NOTHING to young girls about trying to have emotionally intimate relationships with boys outside of marriage. They are both wrong.

25. 

    Liz

    December 17, 2015 at 9:36 pm

    “A young couple honestly doesn’t need that much to live off of, I think we even had cable and were able to afford a gym membership those first couple of years! So financially, we were “poor” in income bracket, but hardly even noticed it because our needs were so small and easy to meet.”

    We started with nothing, when I was very young and still in college as well. Mike delivered pizzas while he waited for pilot training (it took a year for him to get called up). We have friends in their late twenties now that aren’t married, and can’t believe we married so young. They still act kind of like college students and they’re the same age as we were when we were pretty well established into adulthood, and parents (and felt very grown up).
    A lot of countries and cultures differ with respect to family living arrangements, though. In societies where extended families live together and pool resources it can be easier. We lived with Mike’s parents the first year of our marriage, and Mike’s parents had lived with their parents for about five years of their marriage, until they could afford to buy a home of their own (Mike and his sister were born in the first and second years of their marriage). In Italy it’s expected…their homes are set up for that, typically divided down the middle so they live “together” but also have some privacy.

26. 

    jeff

    December 17, 2015 at 11:02 pm

    https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=4&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0ahUKEwi4genJ9ePJAhVLpYMKHc0CAXUQFgglMAM&url=http%3A%2F%2Fafricanspotlight.com%2F2015%2F12%2F17%2Fman-jailed-for-28-years-after-woman-dreamed-that-he-raped-her-photos%2F&usg=AFQjCNGNBK8fvoyu2Sz0GRw3N1wyvcRF7Q

    Who is your son going to be dating that could possibly do this to him?

    Just thought I would paste that, as we see similar happening more and more.

    The teaching in young adult church class and youth group is hilarious. What you have written is true, but you haven’t even approach the fact that young men are brainwashed and emasculated.

    My oldest was a young adults (out of HS) and the elder was teaching on dating etc. He asked the men what the first thing they are attracted by when they FIRST meet a young woman. ALL of the young men in the class agreed that they were attracted to her personality.

    Now let us view this as it was…. When they FIRST meet a young woman they are attracted to. Meaning when someone introduces or they see a new young woman at church.

    I told her and my wife that was the most absurd response I have ever heard. My wife and daughter couldn’t fathom why. I said, so when I see a beautiful woman I say, “Look at the set of personalities on that one!” After realizing it, they agreed, but didn’t understand what was wrong with saying that AND why it was said… of course they don’t see how feminism or the FI has taking the maleness out of men.

27. 

    AnnaMS

    December 18, 2015 at 12:35 am

    Dragonfly, I think you misunderstood what I was saying. I was by no means saying that Jonathan and Sarah should have waited to marry, and definitely not that two actual people like you and your husband should have. You say you weren’t financially ready but then you say you both had jobs, so I’m guessing you guys were actually ready….just not perhaps to your parent’s standards which may have made an impression on you. Maybe you guys would not have a ton of excess, but as has been discussed already, that is fine. I do think that two people who are both freshman who really have no idea what’s going on in life, are not good candidates to pursue a serious relationship. But if people are upperclassman (especially the guy), that would seem to be enough.

    Also, if you think that, like your parents, my rationale for a woman having a fall-back career is so that she never needs to be dependent on a man, than you are dead wrong. No apologies about it either. I have made perfectly clear multiple times in that thread that I do think it is good for a woman to be financially dependent on her husband (aka not government, or other non-husband people). You say your husband has provided for your family just fine and that is awesome. He would not be able to do that from the grave, nor would he be able to do that from a wheelchair (outside of a pension he might get as a former police officer). So yeah, glad it’s working out for you guys. Not everybody has that luck. I realize it is easier to dismiss women who disagree with you as raving feminists but I would appreciate if you would actually engage in my point here rather than straw-manning it. I’m sorry for how your parents treated you. I am not your parents. Recognize the difference.

28. 

    AnnaMS

    December 18, 2015 at 1:24 am

    BGR, I’m sure there are more Jonathan’s than I am aware of. I’m not just basing them off of guys I dated (although it does apply to them). But also to the fact that I don’t see a lot of accidental boob or butt grabbing from strangers either. Sure there are some people with no standards and no sense of morality. but I think we can both agree, that’s not what we’re dealing with here.

    You say I’m just putting it on the guy, but if you look back, I was suggesting ways for the relationship to be less intimate if that would be helpful. There are plenty of date options that don’t need to be extremely intimate. This is probably the couple that doesn’t do star-gazing, really romantic movies, or slow-dancing (not meant to be an exclusive list of course). I don’t think ‘it’s not fair cuz she gets what she wants and i don’t’ is a good reason for anything. I do think that ‘this level of emotional intimacy is making it difficult for me to remain sexually pure’ is a fabulous reason for action. Life isn’t fair sometimes. So if cutting back on really emotionally intimate dates helps, by all means. The fact that Sarah gets to be treated to dinner and Jonathan still goes home a virgin and that’s not fair, seems rather childish. I’m honestly not sure if that’s part of what’s driving your point or not. I honestly think a huge part here is not getting involved in a relationship until people are close to being able to marry. Which I realize we may have different ideas on what that looks like, but I think that should remove issues like 2-year long engagements or other stuff that just opens up all kinds of worms.

    Finally, you point out that there are tons of Jonathans, but again you link it mostly back to struggling in their “thoughts and feelings”. My husband struggled with that, too, and he wasn’t a Jonathan as I said previously. This is IMO a different issue than a guy that can’t keep his hands off his woman’s body. I think the two need to be dealt with separately.

    And with Jacob and Rachel, sure all marriages have their issues, but not all have nearly that level of dysfunctionality. My sister is not competing with me for Tobias’s attention, which results in one of our infertility, and produces extremely dysfunctional offspring who sell each other into slavery. A little more knowledge of family dynamics, personal character struggles, etc. by communicating more in the ‘dating phase’ would have probably helped. But then again they were likely living under the same roof for 7 years, so it is possible that we’re both wrong and they were seeing each other every day.

29. 

    Dragonfly

    December 18, 2015 at 2:01 am

    AnnaMS, I think I must have misunderstood you for sure! About both those things. You’re not a feminist at all, and I didn’t keep up with a lot of the comments on that other thread, so sorry for assuming you thought that way. And on the topic of men dying and leaving their wives, I actually do struggle with fear about that at times, especially with how much hatred police are receiving now, so I understand probably more than what I led on before, where you’re coming from completely.

    I’ve been there now several times when fellow officers have died and leave families with stay at home wives and young children behind. I’m part of a wives group that coordinates funerals and the services and volunteering to serve the families afterward, so this is on my mind a lot recently.

30. 

    Dragonfly

    December 18, 2015 at 2:07 am

    BGR, I think this is the crucible of your entire post, this I’m going to write down!!!

    “Many young Christian women whether consciously or unconsciously doing so use young men to meet their emotional needs while ignoring their physical needs in the exact same way that some men ignore women’s emotional needs and simply use them for sex.”

31. 

    biblicalgenderroles

    December 18, 2015 at 6:31 am

    AnnaMS,

    Your Statement:

    “Finally, you point out that there are tons of Jonathans, but again you link it mostly back to struggling in their “thoughts and feelings”. My husband struggled with that, too, and he wasn’t a Jonathan as I said previously. This is IMO a different issue than a guy that can’t keep his hands off his woman’s body. I think the two need to be dealt with separately.”

    Who said anything about “accidental boob or butt grabbing from strangers either”? Yes we are NOT talking about some pervert randomly groping some woman he does not have an intimate relationship with. So yes we can dismiss that from the conversation.

    But what you are doing is drawing this huge red line between a man who struggles with thoughts and feelings – as you admit your husband did and a man who has the SAME thoughts and feelings your husband did but at a moment of weakness acts on those thoughts and feelings. You believe there is a huge difference between the two men in question but I respectfully submit to you that you are wrong in drawing this huge distinction.

    That is part of our main disagreement on this matter. I know men that are now Pastors of Churches that were “Jonathans” – would you say these men lacked any moral compass simply because in a moment of weakness they gave into temptation?

    Do you think a woman is wrong because she can’t keep her hands off his heart? That fact that a woman wants to explore every bit of a man’s feelings when they are dating like it is candy? That she desires his words of affection like the very air she breathes?

    You talk about that you suggested perhaps some couples should date in ways that are less intimate if they are feeling tempted. ANY red blooded man whether he is a Christian or not is going to be tempted and that temptation will only grow as he grows more emotionally intimate and spends more time with a woman. But this is about so much more than feeling tempted.

    Your Statement:

    “I don’t think ‘it’s not fair cuz she gets what she wants and i don’t’ is a good reason for anything. I do think that ‘this level of emotional intimacy is making it difficult for me to remain sexually pure’ is a fabulous reason for action. Life isn’t fair sometimes. So if cutting back on really emotionally intimate dates helps, by all means. The fact that Sarah gets to be treated to dinner and Jonathan still goes home a virgin and that’s not fair, seems rather childish. I’m honestly not sure if that’s part of what’s driving your point or not.”

    Yes that is pretty close to my point.

    On the subject of childishness.
    Do you think it is childish that a woman desires to be told how beautiful she is?
    Do you think it is childish that a woman desires to have a bouche of flowers or other articles of affection sent to her dorm or place of work by her boyfriend?
    Do you think it is childish that a woman desires to have a man telling her how much he loves her every day and how he can’t wait to marry her?
    Do you think it is childish that a woman wants to hear from the man she is dating on daily basis and share when she is happy or sad or have him share when he is happy or sad?
    Do you think it is childish that a woman wants all these things types of emotionally pleasing things and other emotionally pleasing things?

    I am going to guess your answer is no.

    So basically you don’t think a woman wanting her emotional needs met by a man before marriage is childish, but if a man desires to have his physical needs met before marriage this is somehow childish? You don’t see the problem with this?

    It is not a matter of this just being “unfair”, no my friend – it is simply an exercise in cruelty toward men. But men today have bought into this lie today hook line and sinker. Men must fight their desire for physical intimacy while they date, but a woman does not have to fight her desire for emotional intimacy.

    There is a way to court – as they used to just over a century ago that eliminates this cruelty. The young couple can talk and make sure they will be compatible IN THE PRESENCE OF FAMILY. They do NOT talk on cell phones, texting or other devices. They establish compatibility and then plan a wedding. Perhaps in the last month before the wedding they are allowed to talk alone a few times and they see a Pastor and discuss everything to make sure they both know what is expected in marriage. We need to stop the lavish weddings so that at any point even if something is discovered where they need to walk away in the last few weeks or even days this can be done with minimal pressure.

    Then on their wedding night they finally get to know each other physically and emotionally at the same time! This is the beauty that God intended for marriage. I know you look down on this model of marriage – but this was the model of marriage throughout the Bible and all of history before the last century.

    I am sorry AnnaMS – but we have it wrong today.

32. 

    biblicalgenderroles

    December 18, 2015 at 6:55 am

    Dragonfly,

    I think another part of the problem is the practice of having lavish weddings as we do so often today. It takes so long to plan and they cost thousands of dollars and it does two things that I think have a negative impact:

    1. It makes for prolonged engagement periods which leaves room for greater temptation.
    2. It puts a great deal of pressure on a couple that even if they find some problems in pre-marital counseling that they can’t breakup because of the financial investments that have been made by their parents.

    We need to have simpler smaller weddings and receptions so that a couple could court for perhaps a month(always in the presence of family) and then once basic compatibility has been established for marriage arrange the wedding date for two months later. During this time premarital counseling could begin to further explore on a deeper level with a Pastor that they both have the same philosophy of marriage and especially discuss things like sexual expectations and other important matters.

    Only in the last week or two before the wedding should the couple allow themselves to be alone together but even then only in public places like at restaurants or malls. They could meet each other in these public places and agree not to drive alone in a car together. But in these public places they could talk privately away from family – but this would literally be only weeks before the wedding.

    If at any point they discover some major in-compatibility neither one should be afraid to call off the wedding.

    What do you think?

33. 

    biblicalgenderroles

    December 18, 2015 at 7:04 am

    Dragonfly,

    My son yesterday said:

    “Dad when a girl tells me “I don’t believe in sex or getting too physical before marriage and we need to agree to that up front” I am going to respond “That is fine with me as long as you agree to my philosophy of dating upfront. I don’t believe in getting too emotionally intimate up front and we are not going to talk like a husband and wife, but rather like a man and woman who are looking for certain things in a spouse. I also don’t believe in long engagements so that means if I think you are the one I will be proposing very quickly and we will be getting married very soon(in a matter of just a few months). If you are OK with that then I think we can date.”

    Now whether my son will stick to that is another story. I hope he does. A woman can have a powerful hold over a man if he allows her too. I tell him all the time “guard your heart son, guard your heart”.

34. 

    Missionary to Mexico

    December 18, 2015 at 1:48 pm

    Good comment, Jeff!

    Unfortunately, in my experience most of the Evangelical church world lives in denial. We give the answers that we think that we should give rather than being realistic about ourselves. I believe that many of us deceive ourselves about our own nature.

35. 

    Dragonfly

    December 18, 2015 at 8:38 pm

    3 to 4 months sounds good to me. As I said, we had a 6 months engagement and I’ve heard other Christian couples say even that felt like too long temptation-wise.

    And I think you’re right on when it comes to wedding size/expense, and how it coordinates with temptation and fear of calling off the wedding when incompatibility does come up.

36. 

    AnnaMS

    December 19, 2015 at 2:01 am

    BGR, no, i don’t think a woman is wrong for a woman to desire for her emotional needs to be meant. I also don’t think it’s wrong for a man to desire his sexual needs to be met. Lots of men, single/dating/and unfortunately married spend some time wishing they could have sex. This desire is nothing wrong. When we were dating, Tobias did not tell me everyday, or even most days, that I was beautiful. Would it have been childish for me to say “you did not meet this emotional need today therefore you do not get to kiss me today”? I’m guessing you would say yes. So perhaps the double standard actually lies there? Now yes, it is true that Jesus leaves no doubt about sex before marriage while not addressing emotional intimacy beyond the ‘guard your heart’ concept. So if you wanted it to be completely fair, you might need to take that up with Him.

    Also, to clarify, I was not referring to people groping strangers. What I meant was I would see couples who were complete strangers to me (a guy and girl at wal mart for example), and he wouldn’t be groping her. This is part of why it didn’t seem like there were a ton of guys who just couldn’t keep their hands to themselves. And also why I wasn’t just basing that opinion off of guys I had dated.

    I do think there is a huge difference between acting on lust and struggling with lust. Complete marital sexual intimacy (nudity, caressing body parts, being entwined together, etc.) is a delight and a gift people can give the other. If Tobias had grabbed my boob prior to marriage, it would have been robbing both of us. Instead of it being something I could give to him in a special way, now it’s something that was taken from me. And instead of him finding joy in it, now he finds guilt and shame. Now do I think that Jonathan can never be a pastor and is forever condemned as a pervert on his way to hell? Of course not. I would even say that Sarah could forgive him and they would get married, hopefully sooner than 2 years. But there is a huge difference between struggling with a desire and giving into it. I knew someone who struggled (struggles) with rape fantasies. You cannot possibly tell me that that struggle is the same as him giving into it and raping a woman.

37. 

    biblicalgenderroles

    December 19, 2015 at 7:38 am

    AnnaMS,

    You Statement:

    “But there is a huge difference between struggling with a desire and giving into it. I knew someone who struggled (struggles) with rape fantasies. You cannot possibly tell me that that struggle is the same as him giving into it and raping a woman.”

    A person who struggles with the desire to rape people(rape fantasies) rather than a person desiring consensual sex are two very different things. One is the desire to do something that is never right under ANY context. There is no context in which rape could ever be right. This would be the same as someone having a fantasies about mass murder of innocent people – there is no context in which the mass murder of innocent people would be right.

    However there are contexts in which someone desiring consensual sex would be right, therefore a man’s desire for sex with a woman that he is dating and intimately involved with is world’s apart from someone who struggles with rape fantasies. In fact his desire to have sex with her because of his intimate relationship with her is BY the design of God. It is simply a matter of the timing – they must be married first.

    So no there is not really a huge difference with struggling with it and giving into it and here is why.

    Let’s take our fictitious character Jonathan. The reason Jonathan struggled with temptation to have sexual contact before marriage was because of these reasons:

    1. He allowed himself to pursue a relationship with a woman long before he was in a position to be married. He should have waited till toward the end of his senior year or after he graduated was prepared for a career before pursuing a relationship with any woman.

    2. Even if he were to have met Sarah at a more appropriate time where he could have married her quickly(a matter of months rather than years) he allowed himself to be in positions where he was not only alone with her – but also had allowed close intimate touching to happen(hugs and kisses). When these types of things happen temptation begins to grow.

    So by dating a woman far before he was ready to marry and then compounding that by allowing himself to be alone with her and embrace and kiss her he had in essense put himself in a position where he might be tempted to sin – instead of fleeing those kind of situations.

    That is why I stand by my position of full abstinence from emotional and physical intimacy before marriage and why men and women should not engage in dating until they are both fully prepared for marriage so that if they date(court) and find out they are compatible they can be married in just 3 to 4 months and really leave much less time(only a few months) and occasion(don’t be alone always with family) to be tempted or struggle with unmet desires.

38. 

    biblicalgenderroles

    December 19, 2015 at 8:00 am

    AnnaMS,

    Your Statement:

    “When we were dating, Tobias did not tell me everyday, or even most days, that I was beautiful. Would it have been childish for me to say “you did not meet this emotional need today therefore you do not get to kiss me today”? I’m guessing you would say yes. So perhaps the double standard actually lies there?”

    Ok let me translate your theoretical actions between a you and your husband during dating:

    “Tobias because you did not meet my need for emotional intimacy before marriage today I will not meet your need for physical intimacy before marriage today.”

    What is wrong with that statement? Your need for emotional intimacy should not be met before marriage and his need for physical intimacy should not be met before marriage.

    It really is that simple.

39. 

    AnnaMS

    December 19, 2015 at 6:15 pm

    What is wrong with that statement? A lot! Really, you think having people get married with the habit of making sure that the other person doesnt’ get ahead of them in needs or desires met and always making sure that they are at least tied for first is a good idea? There is no way in the world that I would have ever told Tobias that and I cannot imagine him saying that to me. I cannot even comprehend what that relationship would look like, but i want no part of it. I am perfectly happy with my husband who loves me, was able to kiss me without groping me prior to marriage, and wasn’t trying to make sure that I wasn’t getting ahead of him. I’d like to think he is and was happy with me (I just checked….yes, he is).

    Jesus never commanded a couple not to kiss before marriage. He never commanded them not to get to know each other emotionally in some sense. He DID command them to refrain from premarital sex. My sister and her husband chose to save their first kiss for the wedding, not out of a religious obligation, but rather because they did think it would lead to too much temptation. They however supported me and Tobias in our decision not to. So couples do need to be aware of where they are on the spectrum and make choices and decisions accordingly. But I still don’t think it’s all one standard for everybody. Jonathan clearly cannot handle being alone with Sarah. Tobias could handle being alone with me. I’m not even getting into the huge issues with non-consensually grabbing another person’s body. Jesus is clear that in marriage, each spouse’s body belongs to the other. But Jonathan’s grabbing Sarah’s boob is an offense against her that you blew right over.

    Also, people can go from being not sexually intimate at all to being joined in sex in the matter of one evening (like my sister). I know had Tobias and I not even kissed at all and he was an emotional stranger to me at the time we were attempting to consummate our marriage, that would have made my issues a million times harder. But even if everything went smoothly, it takes way longer to establish an emotional connection. I do think the two can and do grow together. We became a lot more emotionally intimate both in our struggles with sex at the beginning, and later when we were able to consummate our marriage. If fairness really is your goal here (which I don’t think is a good one), this way is very unfair to woman. Cuz the guy gets everything he wants on the wedding night and it takes a lot longer for the woman to get her needs met. I don’t think there’s a way for everything to be exactly 50/50 for every couple. It is so much easier for the people to put the other person’s needs first. That’s what I tried to do for Tobias. I tried to get physically intimate to the extent that we thought it was allowable, while also letting him lead there so that I wouldn’t be unknowingly causing him to stumble. He put my needs first as well.

    The difference between struggling and giving into sin is monumental. It’s what separated Jesus from humanity while He was here on earth. The Bible describes Jesus being tempted by Satan. Had He fallen into sin just that one time, all of humanity would be doomed. They are worlds apart. Yes, rape is always wrong. Rape is an offense against God first, and the other person second. Premarital sex is also an offense against God first. So no, consensual sex is not always wrong, and ideally should always be right. But in the instances when it is not, it is not somehow less of an offense against God because that same act in marriage wouldnt’ be a problem. God saw enough of a difference between premarital sex and married sex to condemn one and encourage (if not even command) the other.

    As far as your two points about why Jonathan fell into sin.The first point, I absolutely agree with. He started way too early for when he considered himself ready to be married. I still dont’ think there’s a huge reason why he has to wait those two years, but since it’s important to him and Sarah than they definitely started too early. Two years ago, Tobias and I hadn’t even met and now I’m pregnant with our first child. I can’t imagine being engaged for 2 years, not to mention the added time prior to engagement. But I think your second point needs to be more flexible to allow for differing struggles for different couples.

40. 

    December

    December 19, 2015 at 7:40 pm

    Totally in agreement with Anna. The bible only commands us not to have premarital sex. This dating model is taken from culture set in biblical times. No where are we commanded to court this way and that makes this complete legalism. My husband started dating me when I was 16. We got married when I was 20. He never had a problem keeping his hands off me when they shouldn’t have been there. And groping someone’s boob inappropriately without invitation is sexual assault. I’ll add that in our relationship true emotional connection happened after marriage. Anybody can ask me about my day, tell me I’m pretty, or make small talk. That doesn’t produce emotional connection.

41. 

    biblicalgenderroles

    December 19, 2015 at 8:40 pm

    AnnaMS,

    Your Statement:

    “The difference between struggling and giving into sin is monumental. It’s what separated Jesus from humanity while He was here on earth. The Bible describes Jesus being tempted by Satan.”

    I agree that simply being tempted by sin, and actually giving into sin are two very different things. There are temptations all around us to sin each and every day and us simply being tempted is not wrong – as you pointed out Christ himself “was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.” (Hebrews 4:15).

    In fact Jesus was “led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.” – Matthew 4:1(KJV)

    So yes Jesus purposefully put himself in a tempting position with the Devil – but you know what the difference was between Jesus and us? He was God! It was impossible for him to sin or give into temptation. So a man or woman should NOT purposefully put themselves in positions where they know they will be tempted.

    As I said in my previous comment – there are men that have lower sex drives than average – like a male relative that I have that we all know about. He has been married just a few years now and only needs sex once a week or so. Even just after he was married he only needed sex once or twice week. That is NOT normal for a young man in early 20’s.

    So if the man you are dating knows in his heart that he has a low sex drive, then perhaps you don’t have to take some of the measures that I have mentioned. But if the man has a normal or above normal sex drive then he will eventually face a LOT of frustration and temptation as the relationship progresses because of the “half relationship” status that modern Christian dating encourages.

    Again there is huge difference between struggling with temptation that is SELF-INDUCED(putting yourself in situations where you know you will be tempted) and just being tempted by situations that you had no control over. This is key point you continue to miss in the discussion of struggling with temptation.

    And no relationships are not always 100% fair, in fact I would argue they never are. But there is no doubt if you look at modern dating it MASSIVELY slanted toward meeting the main desires of women and denying the main desires of men – that is a fact.

    I will continue to stand on the my position that for most men(if they have a normal sex drive or above normal) that not only do modern dating practice put them in a purposefully tempting position, they are also a practice in emotional cruelty toward men.

42. 

    AnnaMS

    December 20, 2015 at 2:23 am

    While that goes into the impeccability of Christ. It sounds like you believe in hard impeccability. Tobias and I lean more towards soft impeccability. That it was possible for Jesus to sin, it was not in His nature, and He consistently chose not to. Now I think that Jesus did in fact choose to put Himself into temptation so He could say in Hebrews that we have a great High Priest who can sympathize with our weakness. And I don’t think people should do the same thing. I definitely don’t think that men should put themselves in compromising situations which is why couples need to make decisions like this for themselves. Some cannot handle being alone at all. My sister and her husband commuted to work before they were married but chose not to kiss. Tobias and I chose to kiss (I left that issue alone in dating and let him bring it up when he was ready to kiss me…which was a full month before I was but I had all kinds of issues with sexuality in general so I don’t think i’m a good example of a typical woman here). Also, my husband’s sex drive is normal for what I hear about guys. He doesn’t have a set schedule like some do, but we average out 4 times a week. So I don’t think he was okay because he didn’t struggle. Lust is a familial sin for him (and no, i’m not trying to call sex drive, lust).

    Yes dating does allow for more emotional intimacy than sexual intimacy, but God did command us to refrain from premarital sex while not commanding us to refrain from things like kissing, saying someone’s beautiful, etc. I do think if emotional intimacy is causing a man to struggle sexually, than they need to cut back. But if it’s just that they’re trying to keep it totally fair, that honestly does sound like keeping score to me and that’s a terrible habit to get into. And saying ‘I do’ is not going to magically rid a couple of that. That will plague them for some time. It sounds from this story, that Jonathan’s struggles were way greater than just that he was tempted d/t the emotional intimacy, but to the extent that that is a factor, they can and should cut back. Although I still do think moving the wedding closer is their best bet.

    I still think that emotional connection is not going to magically happen on a wedding night like sex can. There are very few instances in the Bible of a man attempting to emotionally connect with his wife, and they were all after terrible things (Hannah’s infertility, Bathsheba’s husband’s death, and then her son’s death…the latter two I blame David for so I’m wondering what that connection really looked like at that point…’sorry i had your husband killed, honey, let’s go have sex’). Part of that might have been a polygamy issue where men just did not have the time to connect with 10+ women while being gone fighting and working so much, and part of that might have been that men just got comfortable having a marriage that was pretty much about sex. So I don’t think pointing to how people arranged marriage in the Bible is a great blueprint for a strong relational marriage. I can’t imagine what would have happened to me as a sexually dysfunctional new wife back in that kind of culture.

    I do want to emphasize that I am all about men taking the steps they need to remain sexually pure. And I realize and appreciate that those steps are going to look different than they will for women. But I do think that sexual purity needs to be the focus. Fairness is going to start a terrible habit that could really negatively affect a future marriage.

43. 

    biblicalgenderroles

    December 20, 2015 at 5:59 am

    AnnaMS,

    Your Statement:

    “While that goes into the impeccability of Christ. It sounds like you believe in hard impeccability. Tobias and I lean more towards soft impeccability. That it was possible for Jesus to sin, it was not in His nature, and He consistently chose not to. Now I think that Jesus did in fact choose to put Himself into temptation so He could say in Hebrews that we have a great High Priest who can sympathize with our weakness.”

    There is no such thing as “hard” or “soft” impeccability of Jesus Christ. There is only the peccability or impeccability of Christ.

    One one side we have some Christians who hold to the peccability of Christ that it was actually possible for Jesus to sin but he chose not.
    On the other side we have Christians that hold to the impeccability of Christ that it was impossible for Jesus to sin.

    The Bible is clear that in Christ dwelt the fullness of God:
    “For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.” – Colossians 2:9 (KJV)

    The Bible says this about God:
    “Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
    But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.” – James 1:13-14 (KJV)

    The Greek word for “tempted” in the New Testament is “Peirazo”. When Jesus went up to be “tempted of the devil”(Matthew 4:1) he was Peirazo. When James says God cannot be tempted he is saying God cannot be Peirazo – same word. The context of how Peirazo is used determines its negative or positive meaning.

    The first meaning of tempted is to be tested.
    The second meaning of tempted is to covet or lust in ones mind. That means we actually consider doing a sin, how we would do it and possilbly the consequences of the sin.

    Jesus was never tempted in the negative sense of the word(the second meaning), he was only tempted in the first sense of the word.

    The peccability of Christ view is based on an emotional view of God – how could Christ sympathize with our weaknesses if Christ was never truly tempted to sin in the secondary sense I have said above? That I will leave for you to ask God when you get to heaven. But the Scriptures are crystal clear – God cannot be tempted by sin in the negative sense of the word in the way in which we as human beings with sinful natures can be.

    So when I speak of a man struggling with temptation I am referring to it in both senses. A man being tested, and a man actually considering sin in his mind even if he never acts on it. That means for all the Christian men who considered touching their girlfriends or fiance’s sexually as in “would she let me, maybe she will let me” but then they never act on that – that was still a sinful thought! That was a lustful and sinful thought. If a man goes further with his lustful and sinful thought and actually acts on it then he has further compounded his sin. But make no mistake – even the consideration of it was a sin whether he acted on it or not.

44. 

    biblicalgenderroles

    December 20, 2015 at 6:36 am

    AnnaMS,

    In earlier statement I allowed myself to get sidetracked from my actual position on this issue when I responded to a previous comment of yours:

    Your Previous Statement:

    “I don’t think ‘it’s not fair cuz she gets what she wants and i don’t’ is a good reason for anything. I do think that ‘this level of emotional intimacy is making it difficult for me to remain sexually pure’ is a fabulous reason for action. Life isn’t fair sometimes. So if cutting back on really emotionally intimate dates helps, by all means. The fact that Sarah gets to be treated to dinner and Jonathan still goes home a virgin and that’s not fair, seems rather childish. I’m honestly not sure if that’s part of what’s driving your point or not.”

    And my response to that was

    “Yes that is pretty close to my point.”

    I want to rescind that response as I allowed this discussion to go into the topic of “fairness”. The only “fairness” that the Bible teaches is in the sense of people being treated fairly when all things are equal.

    For instance the Bible warns against officials taking bribes or treating the poor differently than the rich when they are judged in court.
    The New Testament warns against Church officials treating rich and poor members differently.
    The Bible tells us that there are no gender or racial or ethnic distinctions in Christ – we are all saved equally and heirs equally of his grace.

    But that is the limit of God’s fairness. In many ways God is an unfair God and there is no sin in that. He makes some people rich and other poor. He brings nations to power and brings other nations to their knees. God choose Israel from all other nations of the world and choose them to be his representives on earth and nation which would introduce his Word to the World. No other nation of the world got to participate in making of God’s Word and even Christ’s redemptive work was initially centered on Israel and then spread to the world from there. That is not fair – but God does not have to be fair, he can do as he will.

    If I believed in “fairness” when it comes to marriage and relationships between men and women I would be an egalitarian and a Christian feminist.

    So let me reiterate for you what I said in this post. The problem with modern Christian dating is that teaches “half measure abstinence”. It only teaches that couples should remain sexually abstinent, but full emotional intimacy is allowed and even encouraged.

    What I did not say there but I will say here is – this not just about sexual temptation, this about having a half of a relationship.

    You seem to embrace and believe that God is fine with a man and a woman having a “half relationship” before marriage. I do not. I believe God meant for a man and woman to have a full relationship with everything he intended between a man and a woman and not a half relationship.

    Now does this mean I think a man and woman can’t talk to each other? Of course not. But I believe they need to keep that emotional level controlled and the best way to do this to keep themselves around family members and not be alone together. They can talk about their faith, they can talk about what they believe marriage roles should be. They can talk about plans they have for their future. Once they are very close to the wedding(like a month out) and in premarital counseling then they can discuss things like their views of sexuality while they counsel with a Pastor. All the while they need to be guarding their hearts.

    Only after they have made the covenant of marriage can they be fully naked both emotionally and physically with one another.

    But removing the fairness discussion because I believe the Word of God and not an idea of fairness should be the foundation of marriage the fact still remains that because modern Christian dating promotes half relationships between men and women it is an exercise in emotional cruelty toward men.

    To young men reading these comments let me just say – we don’t just hurt others when we sin, but we hurt ourselves as well. When you follow the new model of Christian dating today in most cases you are putting yourself in a position to possibly sin by being tempted to either consider, or actually engage in premarital sexual touching or other sexual activities.

    Even just the thought “maybe just this once, or maybe because we have been dating so long…” you get the point. Even if you don’t actually act on that covetous or lustful thought the fact that you even considered sinning is sin itself. This is why you don’t want to put yourself in that position in the first place.

45. 

    biblicalgenderroles

    December 20, 2015 at 6:59 am

    AnnaMS,

    Your Statement:

    “There are very few instances in the Bible of a man attempting to emotionally connect with his wife, and they were all after terrible things (Hannah’s infertility, Bathsheba’s husband’s death, and then her son’s death…the latter two I blame David for so I’m wondering what that connection really looked like at that point…’sorry i had your husband killed, honey, let’s go have sex’). Part of that might have been a polygamy issue where men just did not have the time to connect with 10+ women while being gone fighting and working so much, and part of that might have been that men just got comfortable having a marriage that was pretty much about sex. So I don’t think pointing to how people arranged marriage in the Bible is a great blueprint for a strong relational marriage. I can’t imagine what would have happened to me as a sexually dysfunctional new wife back in that kind of culture.”

    So I am going to try and be fair to your position in my next statement and please correct me if this is not your position.

    Based on previous discussions you and I have had on other posts you believe in the Biblical model of marriage that the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the Church and that wives should submit to their husbands and that husbands should love their wives as Christ loved the Church.

    But while you believe in the Biblical model of marriage, you reject the Biblical examples of how marriages came to be and how marriages actually functioned in the Bible in practical terms. You actually seem to look down on them. Apparently only in this last century have we finally got marriage right and made it truly “relational” as God intended. All those people in the Bible had it wrong.

    Now there are some things we just don’t know because the Bible does not speak to them – but I think it is highly unfair to just assume that marriage was “pretty much about sex”. We don’t know of the late night conversations these men of God had with their wives(and I mean wives even in the sense of polygamy).

    And what does it mean for a husband to be emotionally connected to his wife? If you ask 100 Christians you would get a 100 different answers on that. In the future I plan on writing a post that very subject. But I can give you a hint up front based on a statement I have made many times on this blog. A man emotionally connecting with his wife does not mean a man becoming his wife’s girlfriend. Far too may Christian women have bought the world’s lie that your husband can be turned into your girlfriend(emotionally speaking).

46. 

    biblicalgenderroles

    December 20, 2015 at 7:27 am

    AnnaMS,

    I just realized based on my wording you may have misinterpreted what I said.

    My previous statement:

    “Tobias because you did not meet my need for emotional intimacy before marriage today I will not meet your need for physical intimacy before marriage today.”

    What is wrong with that statement? Your need for emotional intimacy should not be met before marriage and his need for physical intimacy should not be met before marriage.

    It really is that simple.”

    Your response to that statement:
    “What is wrong with that statement? A lot! Really, you think having people get married with the habit of making sure that the other person doesnt’ get ahead of them in needs or desires met and always making sure that they are at least tied for first is a good idea? There is no way in the world that I would have ever told Tobias that and I cannot imagine him saying that to me.”

    When I said “What is wrong with that statement?” I was not implying that it would be right for you to say “Tobias because you did not meet my need for emotional intimacy before marriage today I will not meet your need for physical intimacy before marriage today.”

    My answer was – Of course that would be wrong! But this is is the reason it would be wrong to say that or do that as I said:
    “Your need for emotional intimacy should not be met before marriage and his need for physical intimacy should not be met before marriage.”

    The entire premise is wrong. You are pitting this as a contest and its not. It simply a matter of it neither one should be taking place. A man and woman should not be sharing the emotional intimacy OR the physical intimacy of marriage before they are married. That is my position.

47. 

    Dragonfly

    December 20, 2015 at 8:47 pm

    Wow! Lots more comments!

    Let me just say, it IS important for both young men and women to guard their hearts – which literally means, protect their emotions from becoming too involved emotionally, too soon or inappropriately.

    It’s even Scriptural!

    “Above all else, guard your heart, for everything you do flows from it.”

    “Guard your heart above all else, for it determines the course of your life.”

    Proverbs 4:23

48. 

    biblicalgenderroles

    December 20, 2015 at 9:17 pm

    Dragonfly,

    I think it is a good discussion to be having and I have actually been able to discuss it with relatives who have come around in the holiday season. Even though AnnaMS are having some sharp disagreements on some of this – I think it is good discussion because it forces us to truly dig deep into the Scriptures and examine why we believe what we believe, not just what we believe.

    Do you understand what I have been trying to say with AnnaMS that there really are two main reasons for couples to practice both emotional and physical abstinence while dating?

    The first is because God did not mean for men and women to have “half relationships” that resemble marriage, but are not the full marital relationship.
    The second is that we are not to purposefully put ourselves in positions where we know we will be tempted to sin.

    So my main point is – guarding against temptation is only one half of the equation.

49. 

    Dragonfly

    December 20, 2015 at 9:29 pm

    Yes, I actually agree and understand both your reasons – they are both strongly biblical (have lots of biblical support). Even Song of Solomon repeats constantly throughout the book, to not awaken love before it’s right timing.

    It makes sense, and we are biblically commanded to guard our hearts against becoming too emotionally influenced because not only is it inappropriate for that level of relational depth, it really does increase sexual desire to be emotionally and spiritually too close before marriage. There’s something mysterious there that is hard to explain, but even things like praying alone together as a couple, coming together as one before God before you really are “one”, should probably only be reserved for marriage! It’s incredibly hard for that emotional closeness not to translate into being physical closeness as well, because that is God’s **natural design** for married couples.

    It’s not hard at all to understand that this is just simply having boundaries around passion (emotional and physical) – to keep it within marriage so that it’s not a situation that is too tempting.

    And it is definitely Scriptural to not go into situations that would lead you to sin or be strongly tempted to sin. The wise person avoids those things, and takes great care to have those boundaries in place for themselves. That goes for being around a person who increases that temptation, this could be sexual but even could extend to avoiding friends who may influence a person’s character badly. Fleeing temptation and not flirting with it is Scriptural and morally right. Being reasonable and responsible enough to avoid those situations is part of spiritual growth and maturity!

    Having **discipline** to avoid those situations is part of spiritual growth and maturity – it’s something that needs to be trained and taught, not something we’re innately capable of or born with.

50. 

    biblicalgenderroles

    December 20, 2015 at 9:43 pm

    Dragonfly,

    How would you reply to December’s comments:
    “Totally in agreement with Anna. The bible only commands us not to have premarital sex. This dating model is taken from culture set in biblical times. No where are we commanded to court this way and that makes this complete legalism. My husband started dating me when I was 16. We got married when I was 20. He never had a problem keeping his hands off me when they shouldn’t have been there. And groping someone’s boob inappropriately without invitation is sexual assault.”

    She is definitely not the only one I have heard this from – I have had many comments like this via email as well. I realize there are two really big topics in her comment – one is the accusation of sexual assault which I would leave as a separate discussion. But the first part about that basically boils down to “me and my husband dated for years and he never tried to touch me and we were alone together and he was a perfect gentlemen – you men who can’t keep you hands off your women before marriage simply lack self control and spirit control. If you are both close to God you do not need all these dating rules.”

    How would you as a Christian woman respond to all these Christian women taking that position that because their husband did not try to touch them before marriage this proves couples can do this and its fine?

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