Does God allow women to teach other women the Word of God or does he only allow men to expound on the Word of God? Anyone who has read my blog for any amount of time will know that I believe that God has given different roles to men and women and he has given men headship over women in the home, the church and society.
Man’s headship over women in the Home
“22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.”
Ephesians 5:22-24 (KJV)
Man’s headship over women in the Church
“11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.”
I Timothy 2:11-12 (KJV)
“34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. 35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.”
I Corinthians 14:34-35 (KJV)
“2 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; 3 Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous; 4 One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;”
I Timothy 3:2-4 (KJV)
Man’s headship over women in the Society
“But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.”
I Corinthians 11:3 (KJV)
But what about women teaching other women the Word of God?
The Scriptures are clear that women are not to take authority over or teach men in the church. They are also clear that women are to ask their husband’s about spiritual things and to follow his spiritual guidance.
But while the Bible commands that women are to follow their husbands spiritual leadership, ask him questions about the Scriptures and they are not to teach men in the Church what about women teaching women? The Bible answers this question.
“3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; 4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, 5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.”
Titus 2:3-5 (KJV)
The Bible is clear that women may teach other women what it means to be holy, truthful, not drunkards and what it means to love their husbands, how to be discreet, pure, how to keep their home and how to be obedient to their husbands. And what should be the source of what they teach? Christ told us what the source is:
“But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.”
Matthew 4:4 (KJV)
So when women are exhorted to teach other women how to live godly lives – they are exhorted to teach them the Word of God.
Some Christians teach against women teaching women
I have just shown from Titus 2:3-5 conclusive proof that women may and should teach other women how to be good, holy wives and mothers and they could only do this by expounding upon the Word of God on these subjects. Yet surprisingly there are some Christians that use Scripture passages on male headship (which I deeply believe in) to attempt to deny the truths taught in Titus 2:3-5. If they don’t completely deny it they try and limit it literally by women’s age groups.
I am often an ally of some of these fellow Christian bloggers in our fight against feminism and it’s poisoning of the home, the church and society. We often stand together in our defense of male headship. So it saddens me when I have to sometimes take my fellow Biblical male headship brothers to task but if the Apostles who were inspired of God had disagreements(Galatians 2:11) then it would follow that those of us who do not write by direct inspiration of God would probably have many more disagreements.
It is somewhat ironic that I find myself in the position of defending Christian women’s rights when I am so often accused of teaching women have no rights and must silently tend to the needs of their husbands, their children and their homes and do nothing else.
But the truth is when it comes to intelligent women who are well read in the Scriptures and spiritually mature I have consistently taught on this blog that they should be encouraged to use their spiritual gifts by their fathers and husbands in ways that compliment rather than contradict God’s roles for men and women.
With that being said here are some areas where I stand against these men on this subject of women teaching women.
Disagreements with Deep Strength over his post “Women teaching women in Church”
In a post entitled “Women teaching women in Church” Deep Strength writes:
“Dalrock rightly points out that exegesis of the preaching and of the Scripture is delegated to husbands in the 1 Corinthians 14 passage. When you combine this with the wording of the passage in Titus 2, it’s obvious that older women are to encourage wifely submission to their husbands. Therefore, it is the case that older women should not be “teaching” what the Scriptures mean to wives but rather encouraging wives to ask their husbands about how they would interpret it.”
Both Darlock and Deep Strength are wrong on this. I constantly teach on this blog that we must take the Scriptures as a whole. We cannot take those passages that don’t fit what we think God was saying and simply dismiss them and this is exactly what Darlock and Deep Strength are doing.
Here is Darlock and Deep Strength’s logic in a nutshell:
Since women are to be silent in the church and ask their husbands at home about spiritual matters women are therefore forbidden from EVER expounding on the Word of God in any situation. God only allows men to teach and expound upon his Word in Darlock and Deep Strength’s view.
Darlock and Deep Strength have errored because they have gone beyond “that which is written” (I Corinthians 4:6).
When the Scriptures tell us that women should follow their husband’s headship and ask their husband about spiritual matters at home it does not mean that the only source of spiritual teaching a woman can ever have is her husband. It does not automatically mean women are forbidden from reading various books or blogs on line about the Bible or even marriage. And it certainly does not mean women are forbidden from expounding on the Scriptures to other women especially as it relates to about to be good godly wives and mothers. Titus 2:3-5 proves this to be the case beyond any doubt.
There are two references to women teaching in this passage from Titus. The first is found in Titus 2:3.
“3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;”
Titus 2:3 (KJV)
The phrase “teachers of good things” is a translation of the Greek word “Kalodidaskalos” which means:
“teaching that which is good, a teacher of goodness”
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/kalodidaskalos.html
The NASB translates this phrase as “teaching what is good” and the NIV also translates this phrase as “to teach what is good”. The consensus among commentator and translators is that this word literally means “to teach what is good”. But the key concept is that women are in fact to be teachers. This cannot be denied.
The second instance teaching is found in Titus 2:4:
“That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,”
Titus 2:4 (KJV)
The word that the KJV translates as “teach” in Titus 2:4 where it says “That they may teach the young women” is a translation of the Greek word “Sophronizo” which means:
“restore one to his senses
to moderate, control, curb, disciple
to hold one to his duty
to admonish, to exhort earnestly”
http://www.biblestudytools.com/lexicons/greek/kjv/sophronizo.html
This word is only used in this particular passage of Scripture.
The NASB translates this word as “encourage” but puts in the foot notes that another word for it could be “train”. The NIV translates this word as “urge”.
Even if this word means encourage we still have the first instance of women being commanded teach in verse 3. And this is all part of one thought by the Apostle Paul and women teaching other women. So even if it means “encourage” Paul is telling women “Be teachers of good things by encouraging women to do these things…”
How can women both teach and encourage other women to be good, to be holy, to be discreet, to love their husbands, their children and be obedient to their husbands without teaching them the standard for all these things which is the Word of God?
So while Darlock and Deep Strength want to deny the meaning of this passage because the Greek word Sophronizo could mean encourage they cannot deny that the Greek word “Kalodidaskalos” found in verse 3 of Titus chapter 2 clearly involves teaching, not just encouraging.
And even if Sophronizo was the only word used in this passage it would be absurd to think that women could exhort other women to Godly living, to be good wives and mothers without ever referencing the Scriptures.
What about proper authority to teach?
We have proven that God’s Word does command women to teach other women how to be good wives and mothers from the Word of God from Titus 2:3-5. But what about the authority to teach the Word of God?
Deep Strength writes:
“All of this stems from as couple of things. Generally, In the Scriptures “teaching” and “preaching” are validated by “authority.” Authority is given in the Scriptures to specific roles such as husbands, pastors and elders, governments, and the like in order to love, shepherd, or maintain order and law.”
I agree that God has established various spheres of authority such as the family (which is headed by the husband) churches that are headed by Pastors and elders and of course civil government.
There are two types of authorities in the Bible – worldly authorities and spiritual authorities.
Worldly authorities would include Presidents, Governors, mayors, employers and school and college teachers and any other authority outside the home or the church.
Spiritual authorities would include people like our pastors or elders of our local churches and then husbands and fathers.
The uniqueness of the father/husband authority role
The father/husband is the only human role to which God has given both worldly and spiritual authority. The husband and father roles are actually very similar to one another but the husband role is the most powerful human authority because a husband has authority to have sex with his wife but he does not have authority to have sex with his children.
The husband and father have responsibility for both the worldly affairs and spiritual affairs of their family. This is why husbands and fathers must teach their wives and children as well as discipline both their wives and children.
Each sphere of authority has its responsibilities, rights and limits. So for instance while civil government has some authority over family it does not have complete authority over the family. For instance my local police department has the right to enter my home if they get a 911 call from my wife stating that I am trying to kill her. But my civil governments (whether they be local, state or Federal) have no business telling me how to operate my marriage or what I teach my wife and children.
The authority of the Church also has it responsibilities, rights and limits. All of the ministries of my church fall under the authority of my Pastor. So if I were to teach in my church I must teach things in accordance with my Pastor’s interpretation of the Scriptures while participating in any official church activity. However in my home I have the full right to teach my children Scriptural interpretations that are contrary to those taught in our church.
Let me illustrate with some examples.
A mother teaching her children
“Hear, my son, your father’s instruction And do not forsake your mother’s teaching;” – Proverbs 1:8 (NASB)
If a mother teaches her children the Word of God, she does so under the authority of her husband and their father. This means that whatever his interpretations and applications are of the Scriptures this is what she must teach the children. It does not necessarily mean that she agrees with all of them herself, but she must submit to his Spiritual views in how she conducts her life and how she teaches her children.
A woman teaching a woman’s Sunday school class
In the case of a woman teaching a woman’s Sunday school class she would first be doing so under the authority of her husband (if she is married) or else her father if she were unmarried. But since she is teaching within an official ministry of the church she also falls under the authority of the church. So when she teaches she must teach in accordance with her husband or father’s interpretations as well as her church’s interpretations. If the church would require her to teach something that conflicts with her husband’s teaching then she would have to resign that position in deference to her husband’s authority.
A woman has a Christian blog
When a woman has a Christian blog she is operating that blog under the spiritual authority of her husband or father. This means even if she disagrees with her husband or father on some interpretations and applications she is to teach what is in accordance with her husband’s interpretations and applications of the Scriptures.
Deep Strength is wrong that the teaching women is ONLY under the jurisdiction of their fathers or husbands
Deep Strength writes:
“Thus, in no situation is a woman “free unto herself” and thus given a voice within the Church in a position of authority whether over men or over other women. Daughters and wives are under their fathers or husbands authority. Likewise, older women are encouraged to teach younger women to obey the authority they are under and act in a godly manner.
Women teaching other women
As of now it should be quite clear that [older] women do not have the authority to teach or preach the meaning(s) of Scriptures to [younger] women because it is under the jurisdiction of their fathers or husbands. The Bible does not contradict itself on this front.”
Again let me reiterate from his statement the absurdity of what he is saying. He is saying older women should teach younger women to obey authority but why? Just because? Or is it because God’s Word says so? Do we live by our opinions or by the Word of God? So she can say “Ladies obey your husbands but I can’t quote the Scriptures that tell you to do that – only your husband can.” Do you not see the absurdity of such a view?
I proved from the Scriptures that women do in fact have the authority to teach both their children (Proverbs 1:8) as well as other women(Titus 2:3-5). The authority they have to do this comes from their husband or fathers first and secondarily from their church authorities if their husband or father allows them to do so.
Does God only allow older women to teach younger women?
Let’s look at Titus 2:3-5 again with the emphasis on ages of the women in question:
“3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things; 4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, 5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.”
Titus 2:3-5 (KJV)
Anyone who has read my blog for any length of time knows that a Biblical literalist. I believe in interpreting the Bible as literally as possible unless it something like symbolism in prophecy or poetry.
But there are times when the Bible places an age restriction on something, and other times when it simply mentions age as an assumption.
We see an example of age restrictions when it comes to the church taking in widows that it would support and they would serve the church:
“A widow is to be put on the list only if she is not less than sixty years old, having been the wife of one man”
I Timothy 5:9 (NASB)
So a widow could not be brought in to be supported by the church and to serve the church full time until she was at least 60 years of age. So here the age mentioned is not just an assumption, but a specific command.
But it is an error to connect this verse from I Timothy 5:9 with Titus 2:3. They are talking about two different subjects. One is talking about widows serving in the church and the other is talking about older woman teaching younger women how to be good wives and mothers. Might some of these widows who were supported by the church does this very thing? Yes. But Titus 2:3 does not restrict the ministry of women teaching other women to this group of women.
Paul’s command about aged women teaching younger women does NOT restrict teaching only to older women to younger women. It was only an assumption that in most cases older women would be teaching younger women. The point of his statement was to allow women to teach other women how to be good wives and mothers according to the Word of God.
Yes God does restrict the exercise of the office of Pastor or elder to men who are not novices:
“Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.”
I Timothy 3:6 (KJV)
This is talking about the position of Pastor or elder – official positions in the church. Also being a novice has nothing to do with age but rather spiritual maturity. In either case this would not stop a young teenager whether they be a young man or young woman from sharing the Word of God with their friends. In fact they ought to and we should encourage our young people to do so.
But God does not restrict his gifts or his callings by age as Paul states:
“Let no man despise thy youth; but be thou an example of the believers, in word, in conversation, in charity, in spirit, in faith, in purity.”
I Timothy 4:12 (KJV)
Are we to believe that while we are not allowed to despise the exercise of spiritual gifts by young men that we are allowed to despise the exercise of spiritual gifts by young women? I think not.
My 14 year old daughter expounds upon the Scriptures all the time at school to her fellow teenage girls. She teaches them about the Gospel and how God wants women to live their lives. I would never dream of despising her for exercising her spiritual gifts.
Now as I have stated here and elsewhere throughout my blog men and women need to exercise their spiritual gifts within the bounds of God’s commands for each gender. So that means women cannot teach or take authority positions over men in the church. Women must exercise their spiritual gifts under the authority of their father or husband.
What about conflicts of authority?
The Bible never says we can only learn about the Bible from one source whether be men or women. The Catholic Church taught this doctrine for centuries there was only once source for understanding the Bible and that was the Church. They forbid anyone but the clergy from reading and interpreting the Bible for themselves.
I thank God every day for the brave men of the Protestant reformation that stood against the spiritual tyranny of the Catholic Church. If they had not we might not be having these discussions about the Bible – we would not even have Bibles unless we were clergy.
But what about when spiritual authorities conflict? Really it is very simple. If you are a wife or daughter and your father does not want you listening to a certain blogger, author, or Pastor on a certain subject or if they do not want you listening to them or reading things from that all you obey your spiritual authority.
But what Darlock and Deep Strength are essentially arguing for is a spiritual “lock down” approach to how husbands and fathers teach their wives and children.
They are teaching that a father or husband must not just teach their wives and children the meaning the Word of God – but they are the ONLY people that can teach their wives and children the Word of God. I have shown here in this article that their position is contrary to the Scriptures.
Think about it in practical terms and let’s take gender out of the equation. If my wife is sitting in a church service at my church and my Pastor teaches something that is contrary to what I teach her from the Bible (and he does from time to time) – should my wife and children have to stick their fingers in their ears or leave the room? Of course not. To do so would be utterly absurd.
Instead after the service when we get home I will take the Scriptures and explain to my wife and children where I disagree with the Pastor on the subject and why I do. This is an exercise in maturity for my wife and children in learning that good Bible believing Christians will have disagreements on interpretations and this is the right way to handle it.
Biblical Gender Roles 
Serious question time. I am not arguing with your post, simply asking for some personal clarification.
“I do not allow my kids to hang out, or talk with older people.”
“I do not allow my kids to hang out, or to talk with older people.”
These two statements, though very much alike. The first statement indicates that I do not allow my kids to hang out or talk with older people. This means they cannot hang out with or talk to older people. The second statement indicates that I do not allow my kids to hang out, or to talk with older people. Two different restrictions in one statement.
“…But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.”
This, to me, looks like two restrictions in one statement. I do not suffer a woman to teach, or to have authority over a man. Now I am merely looking at this from the standpoint of how it is written. The previous verses don’t indicate a problem with women TRYING to take authority over the men, so this seems like a general statement. “Hey, men should pray, hold up hands and sing, women should pray in the same way and dress appropriately. Oh, and women shouldn’t be teaching, or trying to take authority over the men. Why? Because man was created first, before woman, and woman was deceived, not man, so its not a good idea.”
Also, “teachers of good things” is great, but why list a number of items that can be taught outside of scripture instead of just saying ‘The Word of God’?
“…to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children, 5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.”
These are good and biblical things, but these can be taught by non-believers to non-believers, and don’t necessarily require scripture be taught to be learned. I mean, if biblical women know they are to be subject to their husbands then if someone comes to an older woman with a question about what to do when her husband says “we are doing X”, but she doesn’t want to do it is remind her that the word of God says wives are to be subject to their own husbands as to the Lord. That doesn’t require a bible study, that requires obedience to God.
Where I see “women are not allowed to teach scripture” being of an advantage, particularly in biblical times, is if men were required to travel or be out of their home for long periods of time, as I am sure they were, seeing as how long distance travel could require months of being away, would prevent women from learning false doctrine from others. If a woman was instructed to learn from her husband, she would have the mind to reject doctrine from someone she didn’t know. And seeing as how women tend to follow the herd, if you have one person bending scripture then some ladies are sure to follow.
As husbands we find try to find churches that line up correctly with scripture, then, when we find one, we entrust our spiritual guidance to that pastor, or, shepherd. We trust that what we, as men, learn from that pastor can be taught to our families in our absence without fear that false doctrine is being preached. If there is a question about said doctrine then our families ask us for further guidance and prayer.
If we allow our wives and children to learn from un-vetted sources then how are we to assure they are not receiving false doctrine? Both Dalrock and Deep Strength have shown that there are both women and men out there who are preaching false doctrine. Instead of fighting to change the minds of our wives who are already following those who distort the word would it not be better to follow scripture itself and say “wives should be asking their husbands for scriptural guidance and not listening to what could possibly be false?”. How do I know the lady teaching the Tuesday morning women’s group is not one of these Christo-feminist types we hear of in story after story? So the church approved her to teach, does that mean she is teaching correctly?
Again, I am not saying you are wrong in your direction, but I ask these questions because I face my own issues with a wife who wants to listen to and attend conferences by women who are questionable at best. And she is not the only one, thousands upon thousands attend these meeting where women, such as the one in Dalrocks post, bend and distort scripture to meet their needs.
Not that it matters, in all honesty. As I said in response to Deep Strengths post there is no way in all of heaven and hell you could get women to stop teaching each other, and woe to the man who attempts to enforce such a rule, but I guess the real question is, is such a rule scriptural? At this point I still do not know, but I will be watching discussion about this subject closely.
Ugh, I was trying to type that previous reply out while involved in about ten other things and may not have come across exactly how I wanted. Please ask for clarification if anything seems out of whack, which I’m sure it does.
I agree with everything you wrote.
Most of the quotes you used are cherry picked into aligning my position to things I did not say. For example,
The first part is straight from Titus 2 which says older women are to teach/encourage wives to be subject to their husbands and act in a godly manner.
The second part, I think you misinterpreted what I mean. I specifically disagree that women have the authority to teach the meaning(s) of Scripture. In fact, you agree with me on this that specific interpretations are to be under the authority of the Church and the husband:
Titus 2 says older women are to teach younger women specific things. If you’re teaching those specific things, then there’s no problem. It’s wise for women to be >60, but there are certainly exceptions… Timothy was one himself for men. BUT, exceptions don’t make the rule.
What are those specific things?
3 Older women likewise are to be (a) reverent in their behavior, (b) not malicious gossips (c) nor enslaved to much wine, (d) teaching what is good, 4 so that they may [b]encourage the young women to (1) love their husbands, to (2) love their children, 5 to be (3) sensible, (4) pure, (5) workers at home, (6) kind, (7) being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored.
Women are to teach women these specific things, but they are not to teach what these specific things mean. You’ve agreed with me on that in your quotes above.
I just wrote my post in a manner that seems confusing I guess.
@ SnapperTrx
We both agree on this topic. BGR just went about it in a way that seems like we disagree on something.
Most of the things women are to teach in Titus 2 are self evident and do not need interpretation.
(1) love their husbands, to (2) love their children, 5 to be (3) sensible, (4) pure, (5) workers at home, (6) kind, (7) being subject to their own husbands, so that the word of God will not be dishonored.
If there is an interpretation, wives should be encourage to go to their husbands and/or the Church.
So are you both essentially saying that women can TEACH scripture (ie: this is what the word says), but not INTERPRET scripture (that is for the husband to do)? I don’t fully understand the difference. You cannot teach something without explaining what it means. So an older woman tells the younger women to be pure. What does that mean? What does God mean by pure? How can I be sure I am being pure?
You see where my confusion comes in.
@ SnapperTrx
That is correct.
For example, per Titus 2 [older] women should be teaching [younger] women to be submissive to their husbands.
What is submission to their husband? It’s not what other people think is submissive to her husband. It’s what the husband thinks is submissive. Hence, why it’s a good idea for older women to encourage younger women to ask their husbands what submission means to them and how they can best go about it in their relationship.
Hence, what it looks like is an older woman saying:
1. Here’s how I’m submissive to my husband.
2. You should go ask your husband how you can be submissive to him because how I am submissive is not necessarily how your husband wants you to be submissive.
As I wrote in some other posts, some men have more laid back or more demanding personalities. Neither is right or wrong. But women need to know how to be a helpmeet to THEIR husband.
In regard to “pure” the word for that is hagnos which is also translated as chaste or modest.
Hence, older women should tell wives that they should be pure/chaste/modest.
What does that mean? The husband decides what is pure/chaste/modest in his own home.
Women are teaching women to do **these things** because they are good. What these things **mean** is up to the husband to decide, with input from the wife.
Make sense?
@Deep Strength,
Would you say that it’s also acceptable for one woman to show another woman scriptural passages that explain in more detail to how to love their husbands and children, be chaste and discreet, and be good keepers at home? I do agree that a woman’s husband always has the final say, but it is possible that another woman might have a suggestion for a wife that her husband hadn’t thought to command or ask of her. It might very well be a suggestion that he likes, but it may not have occurred to him that he would want that much or be right to request as much. So, maybe one woman gives another woman some scripturally sound advice (or just advice garnered from past experience or from her own husband’s teachings) and the other woman runs that advice by her husband to see if he’d like her to do those things?
Deep Strength,
Your statement:
You cannot teach something without teaching it means.
Your Statement:
In point 1 the wife is explaining how she submits to her husband based on his interpretation of what submission is. But that is explaining the meaning of submission from her husband’s perspective. Now I agree that wives should encourage other wives to go and find out what submission looks like their husbands. But even if a woman is explaining the meaning of submission as far as how her husband would like it – she is still explaining the meaning.
So we don’t disagree that when a woman explains the interpretation to other women that it should be their husband’s interpretation and not theirs if they privately disagree with him. That they should keep for private discussions with their husband and ultimately they should submit to his definition of submission even if they disagree. But women do share the interpretation or meaning when they teach – it simply that their interpretation is to match their husbands.
I realize you may think we are saying the same thing – but someone could read what you wrote and think it is wrong for women to be Christian sunday school teachers(to women’s classes or small children’s classes) or for women to be Christian bloggers. Neither is wrong. As long as the woman teaches the interpretations and meanings her husband has established there is no sin in this.
“My 14 year old daughter expounds upon the Scriptures all the time at school to her fellow teenage girls. She teaches them about the Gospel and how God wants women to live their lives. I would never dream of despising her for exercising her spiritual gifts.
Now as I have stated here and elsewhere throughout my blog men and women need to exercise their spiritual gifts within the bounds of God’s commands for each gender. So that means women cannot teach or take authority positions over men in the church. Women must exercise their spiritual gifts under the authority of their father or husband.”
^^That is so beautiful, BGR!!!! I’m so glad that you are raising your daughter to be this way. In my recent post where I confront these kinds of false teachings, one of the examples I gave at the very end was of Elizabeth Prentiss from the 1800’s. She died at age 59. If she had “been wise” and waited until she was over 60, like Deepstrength and a few other Christian men have decided, she never would have done anything that she did! She would have completely missed out on a life of contributing to the body of Christ! I think that promoting that kind of belief is extremely dangerous to Christian women – and a form of spiritual abuse of one’s influence/authority as men of God. And I thought that DS’s post did assert that women’s Bible studies should *only* focus on Titus 2 topics, nothing else! No diving into Philippians to learn about how to have joy in their life, no diving into Hebrews to learn about faith expounding on Proverbs, Ruth or Esther. It is (in my husband’s opinion) the most ridiculous piece of garbage we’ve recently seen.
The posts I linked to in my recent post my husband and I wrote that last half of together, those men are directly saying that women like April at the Peaceful Wife should be completely disregarded due to her age not being yet 60 (she’s 42), and her not being a grandmother, or post-menopausal. Obviously my own blog would fall into their deciding it’s “illegitimate” as well, because of my age. It’s some very strange twisting and turning of Scripture that is designed to discredit all female Christian bloggers under the age of 60, even though it’s obvious to a perceptive person that God doesn’t work that way.
I’m so glad you don’t discourage your daughter from explaining and teaching Scripture to her teenage friends! And I know you’ve said before that you hope that your daughter does decide to do some kind of blog with her own writing. All that God will use to develop her spiritually and in maturity.
I really don’t think Titus 2 was ever meant to be an exclusive command saying “only older women are to teach…,” but more of an instruction TO older women, SO THAT they can have a purpose in the body of Christ and be fruitful workers, not wasting what they should have learned by that time. Paul starts out by saying what they **shouldn’t** be doing, gossiping and slandering, wasting their time doing unproductive activities, discouraging women (as opposed to encouraging them), being drunks, etc, and then finishes with what older women should focus on in order to do good. It is very strange to me to see some Christian men focusing so much on that Paul thought *only* older women should be contributing to the body through edification.
“It is (in my husband’s opinion) the most ridiculous piece of garbage we’ve recently seen.”
Sorry DS, that’s not directed at you or your post… more the bigger idea behind this that I’ve been seeing around and talked with my husband a lot about (that women have to be 60+, grandmothers or post-menopausal (which can happen in one’s 30’s) in order to be taken as legitimate Christians who “should” teach others.
Deepstrength has this nailed. The passage is a list of things to admonish not license to teach the scriptues. BGR you are nieve and havnt internalized what Paul said about women being easily decieved and led astray.Come on, Eve had just one rule to follow!
Part of the problem here is the idea here that we need women to be leading public bible study for other women or children.That asssumption and practice is part and parcel to matriarchy. And in the matriarchy the women teachers are above the husbands and pastors. They are both unnecessary and dangerous as both experience and the bible demonstrate.
@ Alex,
Of course.
Generally speaking, to adhere to both Scripture and how Scripture commands those to be under authority it should be framed as “Here’s the way we apply this in our marriage… it may look different in your marriage depending on your husband and you.”
Making direct statements into other people’s marriages is, at best, questionable unless there’s obvious sin.
@ BGR
Correct.
The issue is one of interpretation. Her explaining the meaning of submission is fine as long as she is sharing and following her husband’s lead on the matter.
Yup.
Yeah, my post wasn’t worded that well then I suppose. If I have the time I’ll go through and make it more clear.
Husband,
I am not nieve – I just like to follow the whole Bible. You want to replace “teach” with “admonish” then go for it. But I clearly showed from the Greek that while the word in verse 4 could be “admonish” or “encourage” the word in verse 3 unmistakably means “teach”.
Paul speaking under the inspiration of God said we needed women to teach other women in the Lord – so apparently God thinks we need women teaching other women but you don’t.
Yes Paul talked about women being deceived and that is one of the reasons women cannot teach men in the church or occupy positions of authority over men in the church. Men are the check on women’s emotions in all areas of life – the home, the church and society.
We are not talking about women being Pastors or taking leadership positions over men. We are talking about women helping women. We are talking about women teaching their children. And again ALL of this is done under the watchful eye of the male authority figures in these women’s lives. This is something that God encourages and I am sorry you think that is such a threat, apparently God did not think so.
The example of Adam and Eve’s fall into sin is definitely a warning sign of what happens when we attempt to supercede the gender guidelines God has given us, and I’m not going to pretend it doesn’t. But I do have to wonder at those who hold Adam blameless when God so obviously did not. Yes, Eve had exactly one rule to follow….as did Adam. Is it really so much more embarrassing to fall into sin by Satan who is known as ‘the great deceiver’ than it is to fall into sin by one’s wife? If anything, I’d think these men would be wanting to make Eve into some sort of super-human strengh-like person in order to make it less embarrassing for Adam to have fallen into sin through her.
I am by no means trying to get Eve off the hook here. God very clearly gave her punishment and held her responsible as well. Just frustrating when some people twist the garden of Eden to support untruths like what BGR is dealing with here.
“This is something that God encourages and I am sorry you think that is such a threat, apparently God did not think so.”
I was surprised to find that in the Old and New Testament, it seems that godly men (people really) have gotten this attitude wrong and desire to control or nit-pick “who” should be allowed or accepted to be viewed as doing good works and ministering to others in the Holy Spirit’s authority. In the OT, the example was with Joshua being upset or offended that other men in the camp were prophesying and begged Moses to make them stop. Moses had the kind of attitude that we should have about issues like that, he told him that he wished that all the people would be given the gifts to prophesy. He did not view it as a threat, even though the men in question hadn’t followed the rules and directions properly in order to be ordained properly to be prophesying to others.
And then in the NT, there’s Jesus being told by his disciples that they saw a man casting out demons in
His Name, but told him to stop because he didn’t follow them (wasn’t in their group). The man wasn’t even teaching or instructing, just using the Holy Spirit to heal and cast out demons (doing good works). Jesus didn’t want them to forbid anyone from ministering to others in His Name.
As far as women proclaiming the Word… there are verses in the Old and New Testament that say that God will pour out His Spirit on all people in Acts 2:17, age and sex disregarded completely, and your daughters (women) will prophesy (which one of it’s meanings is to **teach** biblical doctrine by speaking Truth and God’s Word to the people based on Matthew 7:22 “Have we not *prophesied* in Thy Name?”), and that “the women who proclaim the good news of the Lord’s command, will be like a great army” (Psalm 68:11). Apparently, God Himself doesn’t think it’s beyond women’s abilities to be inspired or used by Him to do good things or to teach biblical doctrine as long as it isn’t false teachings or usurping male authority or leading a flock as a Pastor.
Ahhh Congrats Anna!!!!!! I hope you and your baby are doing well!!! The pregnancy is over ❤ ❤ and you have your little blessing and gift from God!!!!!
And Deepstrength, I know that you endorse Cane Caldo and Moose Norseman and their blogs. You say you agree with “everything” BGR has written here – you cannot be truly in perfect agreement if you agree with everything Moose Norseman and CC have written recently on the topic of Christian female bloggers also, because what they’re saying is completely opposite of what BGR has said.
From the Moose:
“Second, to be given cover [he means to be biblically legitimate and accepted as good], the teachers must be aged women. Based on other writings by Paul, I would set that age at 60. At this point, you can probably see why I simply categorically condemn women’s blogs and women’s ministries. Perhaps you know of some where teaching is directed only at women below 60, and given only by women above 60. I haven’t run across any of these, but perhaps they exist.”
He admits to “categorically condemning women’s blogs and women’s ministries.”
And in another post that Deepstrength actually linked to from his blog to send his male readership to, he and Moose Norseman specifically condemn “godly, submissive, Christian women bloggers,” as being especially fake and even dangerous to other women and men. He even goes so far as to compare them to porn stars of a different flavor (!!). It’s pretty inflammatory and designed to discredit their blogs, and especially insulting to the husbands of those women who do write blogs like that… Moose/DS are basically saying to that husband that his wife is just fake and dangerous, and that any effort he does or has accomplished in leading her is not valid, and she has no business in encouraging and writing to other women to learn how to submit to their husbands. He is indirectly usurping the husband’s authority in his household by saying the husband is doing something wrong and dangerous then, by allowing his wife to write or blog or be involved in ministry… so he’s questioning that husband’s particular leading of his own wife and even condemning him for it.
From MN again, and a post DeepStrength sent his male readership to:
“This is a warning about the lures.
The lures of “Godly, submissive, Christian women bloggers who write about marriage and how to be a good wife.”
You heard me.
Those chicks be dangerous. They got them some hooks. And they look so good, don’t they?
But dangerous they are. Dangerous to your wives and dangerous to you–both single and married.
And their danger is the same regardless of whether they are sincere or not. Let’s look at some of those dangers.
First, the danger to your wife (if you have one). These bloggers, let’s call them “Submissive Christian Women-Bloggers (SCWs), will lead your wife away from you. SCWs will do this regardless of whether or not they are actually submissive to their own husbands. If the SCW is submissive to her own husband, she will teach your wife to follow her as she follows her husband. If the SCW is not submissive to her own husband, she will teach your wife to follow her as she wanders around aimlessly. Note the constant in both scenarios–your wife follows the SCW rather than you. This is because any blog that intends to teach a woman how to be a good wife implicitly makes itself an authority on the same–directly in conflict with a husband’s authority.
Your wife is not under the authority of SCWs, and thus ought not to be looking to them for instruction. No instruction comes without authority.
I should say that again: no instruction comes without authority. That is why one is said to submit to instruction. Consider that well when you choose who you allow to instruct your wife.
But there is a danger to you beside the danger to your wife–if you are perusing such sites. Such sites lie to you about the Daughters of Eve. The lures just seem to sashay more than the real minnows–to look just a little jucier, despite being made of balsa rather than flesh. What do I mean? I mean they give false impressions of submission and rebellion. To read SCWs, you’d think that only the bad Christian wives rebel. The good Christian wives (SCWs, of course!) never rebel, and are only occasionally tempted to rebel.”
Stephanie,
I had not read that article but that is an interesting statement from MN:
I think he is misusing the concept of authority a bit here. MN does not realize that we can have both spiritual authorities and spiritual advisers.
Sometimes a person can be both a spiritual authority and a spiritual adviser. The roles of Pastor, Father and Husband all have the duel responsibilities of being spiritual authorities and advisers.
Pastor – the Pastor can command that certain things be taught in Sunday school, he commands what interpretations and applications of the Scriptures will be taught and he directs the church in how it will operate(all under the headship of Christ and his Word of course). But when the Pastor preaches – he then acts in an spiritual advisory role to the families within his church. He cannot literally command them what they will teach and what they will do in their homes.
Father or Husband – In his role as a father or husband to a woman a man can and should command her to do certain things or command her to not do certain things. He can and should also advise her as well. In this way he acts as both spiritual authority and spiritual adviser to his women.
Now I agree that even spiritual advisers operate under authority. When a man acts as spiritual adviser he does so under the direct authority of Christ.
“that the head of every man is Christ”(I Corinthians 11:3) but when a woman acts a spiritual adviser she does so under the authority of man “the head of the woman is the man” whether that is her father or her husband.
It is true as I said in this post that women should exercise their gifts under the authority and guidance of their fathers(if they are not married) or their husbands(if they are married). But that is the authority to DO something.
That does NOT mean these women teachers are spiritual authorities OVER these women – these women are simply acting as spiritual advisers TO these women.
Think of it this way. Do Kings and Presidents have advisers? Of course they do if they are wise. But is an adviser to a King or President acting as his authority simply because he gives him some advice? Of course not. In the same way just because a woman offers spiritual advice through a blog or other means to other women does no mean she is acting as a spiritual authority to those woman but rather she is acting as spiritual adviser.
The Bible even tells us this regarding advisers(or counselors):
“Where no counsel is, the people fall: but in the multitude of counsellors there is safety.” – Proverbs 11:14 (KJV)
Certainly there are good advisers and bad advisers. No question. As fathers and husbands we have the right to restrict our wives and children from listening to certain advisers whether they be friends, people on the radio or christian bloggers. But we ought not to throw out the baby with the bath water. We should not say that our wives can only hear spiritual advice and interpretation from us as their husband. But what a wife must accept is that her husband is her final authority. So if she hears some counsel and brings it to her husband and he disagrees then she needs to accept that.
But what many men do not realize is – wives actually many times will hear things from other Christian wives that their husbands were trying to explain to them and a light bulb goes on because the woman explained it in a way women understand – because she is a woman. This is an asset to us as husbands that other women can minister to our wives- it should not be seen as a hindrance.
Now on the other side of this I know and I have heard from men on hear whose wives follow false Christian female bloggers and teachers. But that is where husband’s must exercise their authority and discipline their wives accordingly to persuade her to submit to her husbands spiritual authority.
A Christian woman Sunday school teacher is only an authority over those women to the extent that she keeps basic order in the class room and that is the extent of her authority. She is not an authority over those women in the sense that she can tell them how they must act and live their lives. She can only advice, the cannot command.
Now a Pastor’s spiritual authority would be more powerful than that of a Sunday school teacher(whether male or female) because he has the authority to command how the basic operations of a local church works(within the parameters of the Scriptures of course). So he does act as more of a true authority and he is not just in an adviser role as a Sunday School teacher is.
Stephanie,
You could simplify my last long comment with this sentence:
All spiritual authorities are spiritual advisers but not all spiritual advisers are spiritual authorities.
Thanks Stephanie!
And BGR, I definitely agree with the spiritual advisor/authority distinction you made. I can definitely sympathize with men who have had their wives be wrongly influenced by other women, but the presence of bad women doesn’t negate the responsibility that Godly women have.
This discussion is interesting and while it is creating a lot of sparks, not much light. We live in a time where feminism runs unrestrained and unrecognized in the church. For example, Joyce Meyers is preaching and creating a parallel church for feminists with gifts. On the other hand the Bible encourages older women to teach the younger women. There are two ditches to avoid, on the left, women teaching men in the church and not being submissive to their own husbands, and on the right women not teaching other women.
The salient issues seem to revolve around who is doing the teaching, the subject matter taught, and the venue or situation for the teaching. These three fir very nicely with John Frame’s approach to Christian ethics. His three perspectives are the normative, the situational and the existential or God’s Word applied to people in situations.
I imagine that Paul had it in mind that women normally gather together at certain times such as to wash clothing down at the river or sheer and spin wool. These informal gatherings made for a natural type of forum where the older women and the younger women were together and the informal teaching of how to love her husband and children would be a natural topic of conversation. Recipes for dinner and intimacy might easily be covered and the principles of submission and making a man feel masculine would naturally be based on the scriptures. But that is a far cry from usurping the husbands’ or the elders’ teaching on covenant faithfulness.
Some guidelines should be considered. For the sake of this discussion, I am referring to christian to christian teaching, not outreach and evangelism.
1) Any informal teaching (blog, facebook, quilting party, social gathering) should regularly remind women to submit to the male household authority over them as well as the teachings and teacher are under the appropriate male authority.
2) No teaching should ever undermine, weaken or some otherwise be substitute for the teaching of the household male authority (father or husband) or the church.
3) The teaching should be limited to how to live according to scripture as a woman of Christ, topics like eschatology, infant baptism, and covenant v dispensational theology should be deferred to her male head authority .
4) Common sins should be regularly rooted out. Sins like envy, discontent, contempt, sexual resistance and manipulation.
5) Husbands should thoroughly equip their wives in the principles of the faith, including hermetics, apologetics and a systematic theology. This requires that men learn and study these topics with some mastery. It might even mean for the more serious, turning the man-cave into a study and exchanging the x-box for a library. When a wife does have a question in which the husband is not prepared to answer, he is to study and research the topic and bring his findings to his wife to sanctify her. Ironically this will sanctify him and their marriage according to God’s design.
6) Women are to be well instructed, they are the nurturers, educators and caregivers of our children. We do not want a generation of uneducated men who cannot take dominion or women to raise the next generation. Math, literature, civics, Bible, science, history are all subjects that a good mother can teach her children, so that her sons can stand int he gates and her daughters can prepare her grandsons.
7) The more formal the setting the more the same qualifications for men teaching apply. Is she the one wife of her husband, is she and her children ruled well ie in submission, does her husband have a good reputation etc.
8) These are just my ideas – your mileage may vary.
Bgr
Some of the blogs mentioned have also stated a wife is biblically commanded to obey her husband even if commands her to sin and her sin is then covered. What are your thoughts on that?
Marie,
I would definitely disagree with that. The scriptures are clear that when any human authority and that would include a husband tells someone to do something sinful that “We ought to obey God rather than men.” – Acts 5:29.
Can you give me some links where they discuss this heresy?
Bgr,
Here’s the link. The conversation continues in the comments
http://moosenorseman.com/for-claritys-sake/
https://canecaldo.wordpress.com/2016/05/20/on-christian-female-bloggers-ii-the-gold-standard-of-reverent/
Also interested on your take on this
I agree with Jonadab and for the most part snapper’s confusion. My wife listened for years to a pastor who we ended up counseling with. He is very very well known pastor. The problem I had was that he had a physical affair, lost his pastoralship, took a personal sabatical and wrote a book. He then reinstated himself with the blessings of elders who were friends.
If you like Matt Chandler and CBMW/TGC and their interpretation of the bible, you would like him. Although he is a good orator and MOST of what he teaches line up, he is questionable in some areas. It took a year plus for me to get her to stop listening and I bet she still does from time to time.
He has mentioned girl porn and I agreed with him as my wife sort of did, but allowa my dd to read Nicolas Sparks and the like who is the king of girl porn.
Most women, if we believe are led by their emotions for the most part, can and will glob onto poor teaching that lines up to their own way of feeling and thinking. They will then discredit their own husbands belief on the matter and the pattern of disrespect is opened up and the road to contention is paved.
Marie,
I too would like to see where a CHRISTIAN husband is commanding his wife to sin. Is he asking here to go to a church she doesn’t like or is he asking her to join a swingers club.
Jeff I did post the article but hasn’t gone through yet. They are not commanding a wife to sin but they are saying the wife should obey her husband even if he commands her to sin. Actual sins, abortion, three somes etc because his headship covers her sin. It’s on moose Norsemans blog read the comments too
Marie,
Sorry it took me so long to approve your links. I have filter on that forces me to approve comments with links even from approved commentators.
They are approved now for everyone to go check out – I briefly look at them and will do a response to them shortly.
Jeff,
The issue is not husbands telling their wives they cannot listen to certain advisors(whether they be blogs, books, radio shows or TV shows). I think we as husbands should do that. But what I am arguing is this – there is big difference between a husband forbidding his wife to listen to certain advisors and him saying she may not hear any spiritual advice from anyone but him. Hearing advice and acting on that advice are also two very different things.
So I am completely sympathetic to you plight with your wife listening to someone you have told her she should not. She is in rebellion if she continues doing this and some type of disciplinary measures might be appropriate if she continues.
Also the man you mention has absolutely no business leading a congregation. He has disqualified himself because he is not above reproach anymore.
For the record,
1. I agree with Jonadab-the-Rechabite. I think it’s most likely that when there were gatherings of believers, the older women hung out with the younger women informally. When they are/were in these informal gatherings, instead of being tempted toward wine, gossip, and discontent, Paul was trying to direct them on the righteous path. Older women have a very strong influence on younger women due to modeling behavior.
2. I think it’s *wise* for women to be much older — and 60 is a solid number — than the women they’re teaching AND they should be teaching specific things as the Scripture indicates. However, there are exceptions. Timothy himself was an example of youthful godliness. Younger than that is typically a mother-child relationship.
3. Arguing for exceptions does not make the rule/concept/principle. In fact, arguing exceptions is almost always a temptation because it distracts from the actual point(s). For example, “what if my husband commands me to sin?” is a temptation distraction away from encouraging righteous submission. The principle of being “older” — or shall we say generally “more wise” due to age and experience — than those you are counseling is strong one, and this concept is even directed at Timothy in terms of older men in 1 Tim 5:1 Do not rebuke an older man harshly, but exhort him as if he were your father. Treat younger men as brothers, 2 older women as mothers, and younger women as sisters, with absolute purity.
4. 1 Peter 3 commends Sarah for her obedience to Abraham. Abraham allowed Sarah to get into some potentially hairy adultery situations with Pharaoh and Abimelech twice. Now, Abraham didn’t command her *to* sin, but she was obedient to him. If she had sinned, it would have been Abraham’s fault, not hers. Authority acts as a covering. See: Numbers 30.
5. The problem with arguing the exceptions is they’re a temptation as I mentioned before. A proper response of unwillingness to potentially sin (which is often dubious in the first place as what Christian husband commands a wife to sin?) shows proper respect and willingness to submit: “Hey, I think this may violate the Scripture and my conscience. Is there anything else I can do instead so that I can do what you want?” This shows a heart that wants to righteously submit. In 99% of the cases brought up by Christian women the “what if my husband asks me to sin” is brought up as a distraction so that she doesn’t have to submit.
Women have a very difficult time fleeing from the “exceptions” temptation.
@DeepStrength,
I hear what you’re saying about exception temptations. However, the examples often used of times where a wife’s husband might ask her or command her to sin are pretty black-and-white. The examples in the post that Marie was using were abortion, threesomes, and robbing a bank. Having an abortion obviously violates the commandment against murder, disregards God’s declaration that He has known us since we were formed in the womb, and violates a woman’s obligation to love her children. Having a threesome violates the commandment against adultery, assists another person (male or female) in committing adultery (by having sex with a married woman), and violates commandments against homosexual relations (whether gay or lesbian). And of course robbing a bank violates the commandment against and the requirement to obey the government as long as doing so does not conflict with God’s laws. Now, I can’t see a professing Christian husband asking his wife to help him rob a bank, but abortions and threesomes aren’t out of the realm of possibility. Now, I agree that it’s much more common for a man to try to get his wife to have an abortion or participate in a threesome if he’s not Christian. But there are definitely times where even a Christian man might press hard for a threesome in search of sexual variety or greater sexual submission on the part of his wife. It’s also possible that even a Christian man might start trying to pressure his wife to abort because he fears that they have too many children and can’t support another. When disagreements are less clearcut than this (for example, a far more common debate over birth control), then I think that the wife should defer to her husband, although if he’s being a good leader, he probably would use scriptures to help ease her conscience.
As for the example of Sarah and Abraham…those instances always seemed less clear-cut to me. Yes, Sarah did agree to Abraham’s command to call herself his sister rather than his wife, and yes, she did get into potentially adulterous situations. But in those cases, it is probable that both Abraham and Sarah trusted that God would not allow another man to violate her (and He did not). Furthermore, Sarah wasn’t obeying to fulfill Abraham’s wife-swapping or cuckolding fetish. She was obeying to save his life, and he made it clear to her that he wanted her to lie because he feared for his safety. If a man can kill to save his wife (an act that would otherwise be sin), then perhaps a woman can also do what would otherwise be sin in order to save her husband.
In contrast, Sapphira wasn’t covered when she helped her husband deceive the Apostles. Meanwhile, Abigail escaped punishment when she disobeyed Nabal and fed David in order to keep David from killing her husband. I think that the Bible makes it pretty clear that all people are to obey God’s law first, and their human authority’s law second. God’s law gives a husband considerable discretion, but I don’t think that it gives him enough to command his wife to sin against God mortally. More importably, it seems as though the wife risks her own soul if she sins, even at her husband’s command. Women are still, after all, responsible for their own sins. They just aren’t responsible for their husbands’.
DS
Maybe that’s some women’s motives but not mine. I’ve point blank asked my husband if I’m submissive and he states I am. He has never asked me to sin. But that doesn’t mean he couldn’t. My biggest concern is if that happens I want to stand in front God with a good reason for not obeying him or for sinning.
Alex,
You’re falling prey to the same trap that women do. It’s an obvious diversion! You don’t answer the question to an obvious diversion or if you do then you have to tie it back to righteous attitude and actions.
Good answers to a question like “But what if my husband commands me to sin?” are:
1. “lf that ever happens, feel free to call me at any time and we’ll look through the Scriptures to discuss it. Now, as I was saying about submission…”
2. “When’s the last time you heard a husband command his wife, much less to sin? Now, as I was saying about submission…”
3. “You should find where it says it is a sin in the Scripture. Then you come to him with a respectful and submissive attitude and say: ‘Hey, I think this may be against what God says in the Scripture here and my conscience. Is there anything else I can do instead to make it up to you? Now, as I was saying about submission…”
The point is to stay on topic because the desire to divert a topic away from uncomfortable Truths is one of the strongest temptations that women have which is the desire to be rebellious. Submission is righteous and holy. Discussing it is good, and diversions away from it are to play right into temptation.
—————–
Re:
Sapphira was punished because when caught in a lie she continued to lie about it. Her husband didn’t tell her to lie; she was complicit by her own free will. Obvious.
Abigail was found righteous because (1) she interceded on her husband’s behalf, (2) she offered to take all of the blame, (3) she begged for mercy instead of judgment. This is MUCH different than the other cases. You can’t obtain mercy or grace without acknowledging your fault or even taking the fault of someone else. It’s similar to what Jesus did for us.
If we’re talking moral dilemmas like “Sarah lied to protect Abraham” then you have to acknowledge that lying is sometimes good. After all, lying to the Nazis to save Jews would probably be considered the right thing to do. It’s not “lying that is bad” which is what people claim the 10 commandments say…. it’s not bearing false witness against your neighbor.
The problem with going down the exception route is you get into all of these supposed “moral dilemma” situations and it CLEARLY avoids the real issue which is a good discussion about why submission is good.
Rob a bank? What Christian husband asks that?
Threesome? Really?
Abortion? Again, who? If a supposed “Christian” husband asks for that I would question if he’s a Christian in name only.
This is why these things need to be cut off and redirected like I said in the first part of this comment. If you NEED to give an answer then give an answer like #3. Any good answer is done respectfully and with a submissive attitude straight up.
Marie,
Thank you for proving my point.
And that’s the problem right there. You are thinking he “could.”
You know your husband’s character. If he made an honest mistake and was unaware then you, as his helpmeet, bring it up to him respectfully. “Hey, this might be a problem because…”
Wives have concerns that they’re husbands are going to turn into some horrible monsters when the subject of authority comes up. This is ingrained because our culture despises authority via feminism and even the revolutionary war. I’m not surprised.
It’s the attitude of *letting him lead* instead of *following his lead.* I’m going to let him lead *until* he tells he to do something that is sinful.
I say he could because he is human. Sarah’s daughter has a post from June 5th 2015 were a husband asked his wife to have a three some. The husband decided not to go through with it last minute and Sarah’s point is God will intervene just like he did with Sarah and Abraham. A true Christian husband wouldn’t ask his wife to sin but are only wives of believers to obey?
“A true Christian husband wouldn’t ask his wife to sin but are only wives of believers to obey?”
Marie, even true Christians regularly sin, or even get others to sin. They may be baby-Christians that aren’t mature in their faith yet, or full of pride, or simply not letting the Holy Spirit to control their interactions, but yes, even true Christians are subject to sinning or influencing others to sin. I’ve sadly seen this happen with the men in the manosphere, both in the sinful way they treat people, but also in how they psychologically persuade younger men who look up to them to act in the same way. These are Christian husbands leading younger men into sinning by example – so it makes sense that they could also lead their wives into sinning also. That is why there are very strict rules Paul laid out for who the male leaders were supposed to be, what they were supposed to be like, how they were supposed to act, etc. because they carry a lot of spiritual authority and influence. If Joshua had been allowed to persuade Moses to prevent other men from prophesying it would have been spiritual abuse. It’s really serious stuff. You weren’t just supposed to look up to any older Christian male for spiritual guidance, he had to be beyond reproach to even be considered an elder (spiritual adviser), because of what can happen when carnal Christian men have more influence than they should.
I think it’s one thing to lead other men astray (when you’re not a Pastor but someone they look up to as a spiritual adviser), another thing to lead a wife astray, and a huge thing to lead an entire flock astray.
In each instance they will be held accountable for their influence in leading others astray.
@BGR
Lets look at this list from Titus 2 again. The older women are commanded to admonish the younger to…
be sober (i.e. have a sound mind (strongs), its not speaking against drunkenness)
love their husbands and children
be discreet, chaste, homemakers, good, obedient to their own husbands
You want to be pedantic and say teaching them to be ‘good’ requires teaching scripture. But you’re missing the forest for the trees. We’re dealing with a difference in kind and scale.
Churchian feminist women want this to be license for them to be pastors of women, to teach the whole council of God. And in so doing invert the ministry with women teachers teaching women who then teach their husbands (who are admonished continually about how much more spiritual their wives are and how they are there to guide and correct their husbands). Look around, we can already see the bad fruit of this. Thats what this is really about and Dalrock has well documented this new structure of authority.
But thats not what this passage is instructing. It is the husband who is to be the primary teacher of the wife. Notice this isn’t a list concerning the whole council of God or all rightousness. Rather it is limited and all the items share a common: they all related to women having a proper attitude (sound mind).
The point? Rather than woman being gossips, or setting up teaching ministries, they are to point their sisters in the direction of the home and husband and good attitudes. This doesn’t require long treaties on scripture or expository teaching. A simple admonishment, maybe a quote from scripture. But it doesn’t really take scripture to tell someone to be discreet or to obey your husband. Women operate on social pressure not intellectual assent for the most part.
Even ‘good’ in that passage doesn’t mean righteous behavior but “useful, salutary, good, pleasant, agreeable, joyful, happy”. Sober, love, discretion, chaste, pleasant/agreeable; these all refer to attitude as much as anything. This is important, because her having a proper attitude will enable her husband to do his job.
Now you point to verse 3 ‘teachers of good things’, but verses 4 and 5 are a list of those good things.
As to the word ‘teach’ itself. Teach admonish, exhort could all be used and makes no difference to me. The point is the thrust of WHAT they are teaching. This isn’t about teaching theology, its about directing the normal social pressures of women to cultivate a right attitude in women towards family and husband so the latter can teach the wife and make her more like Christ.
@ Marie
Answered that in point #3.
@ Stephanie
I wouldn’t make any accusations like that unless you are going to give evidence.
At worst, a stricter interpretation of the Scripture regarding Titus 2 based on other passages such as 1 Timothy 5 is not “sinful” or “leading others astray.”
Deep Strength,
I have responded to your concern over the “distraction” and “temptation” of telling women there are exceptions to their submission to their husband when he asks them to sin. Also I have covered Moose’s contention that a wife must obey her sinful husband’s request and he alone will bear her sin because of his headship over her.
See this new post:
https://biblicalgenderroles.com/2016/06/11/does-a-christian-wife-have-to-submit-to-sinful-request-from-her-husband/
The evidence of dozens of comments wouldn’t serve any good here, the broader example that even Christian men can be carnal is kinder to use without publicly calling people out. These men’s own words condemn them all the time.
It is very clear to anyone who has eyes to see it; it’s not hard to find and comprehend what is carnal behavior, and what is proper talk and behavior for a spiritual adviser. Like I said, Paul had very strict rules for the speech, behavior, and life of those who were to be looked up to as male elders (spiritual advisers) to the body. If they weren’t above reproach in all those areas, they had no business being in a position of spiritual influence over others because they could lead them astray.
@ BGR
I will read the post.
Based on your statement, I find obedience to an obvious [Scriptural] sinful request dubious.