There are some things that are just common sense and this is one of them.
Heather Mac Donald, in her article for the Wall Street Journal entitled “Women Don’t Belong in Combat” wrote a blistering condemnation of this “Obama-era policy”:
“The Obama-era policy of integrating women into ground combat units is a misguided social experiment that threatens military readiness and wastes resources in the service of a political agenda. The next defense secretary should end it.
In September 2015 the Marine Corps released a study comparing the performance of gender-integrated and male-only infantry units in simulated combat. The all-male teams greatly outperformed the integrated teams, whether on shooting, surmounting obstacles or evacuating casualties. Female Marines were injured at more than six times the rate of men during preliminary training—unsurprising, since men’s higher testosterone levels produce stronger bones and muscles. Even the fittest women (which the study participants were) must work at maximal physical capacity when carrying a 100-pound pack or repeatedly loading heavy shells into a cannon
Lowering these physical requirements risks reducing the American military’s lethality. A more serious effect of sex integration has become taboo to mention: the inevitable introduction of eros into combat units. Putting young, hormonally charged men and women into stressful close quarters for extended periods guarantees sexual liaisons, rivalries and breakups, all of which undermine the bonding essential to a unified fighting force.
The argument for putting women into combat roles has always been nonmilitary: Combat experience qualifies soldiers for high-ranking Pentagon jobs. But war isn’t about promoting equality. Its objective is to break the enemy’s will through precise lethal engagement, with the lowest possible loss of American life. The claim that female combat soldiers will perform as lethally as men over an extended deployment entails a denial of biological reality as great as the one underlying the transgender crusade.”
Heather Mac Donald’s is absolutely right that putting women into combat units and pretending that it good for increasing the lethality of America’s military “entails a denial of biological reality”.
But let’s just remember that modern progressivism is actually a denial of the reality of human nature in general. Anyone with an ounce of common sense knows that if you take the average 10 men and put them up against the average 10 women in any athletic event the men will win every time. That is why we have Olympic teams, and professional sports teams segregated by gender. Now will you get outliers where a woman is as big and muscular as a man? Sure. But exceptions do not negate norms.
And you cannot build something as important as the military around exceptions. You must build it based on norms.
Heather MacDonald also brings up what she calls the “taboo” subject of sexual affairs happening between male and female military members. Again, this should be a common sense issue. When you put a man and woman together, especially in emotionally intense situations bonds will form and those bonds often lead to sexual intimacy. This is by the design of God and yet progressives want to pretend we can just reprogram human nature and say it isn’t so.
Rob Moll, wrote the following in his article for Focus on the Family entitled “The New Workplace Romance”:
“Today’s workplace has become the No. 1 spot for married individuals to meet affair partners. More men and women are breaking their marriage vows by engaging in office friendships that slowly become romantic relationships — relationships that would have been socially impossible just 30 years ago. As the boundaries that once separated the sexes crumble, so do the boundaries that protect marriage.
In her book Not ‘Just Friends’, Dr. Shirley Glass says, “The new infidelity is between people who unwittingly form deep, passionate connections before realizing that they’ve crossed the line from platonic friendship into romantic love. Eighty-two percent of the 210 unfaithful partners I’ve treated have had an affair with someone who was, at first, ‘just a friend.'” From 1991 to 2000, Glass discovered in her practice that 50 percent of the unfaithful women and about 62 percent of unfaithful men she treated were involved with someone from work. “Today’s workplace has become the new danger zone of romantic attraction and opportunity,” Glass writes.
Today’s careers offer more opportunity for extramarital affairs. Group interaction in coed workplaces, frequent travel and long hours create more opportunity and temptation than ever. Glass writes, “all of these changes and others allow individuals to mix freely where once they were segregated and restricted.” Studies published in the American Sociological Review and the Journal of Marriage and Family show that before 1985, divorce rates were about equal among working and homemaking women; however, “between 1985 and 1992, the annual probability of divorce among employed wives exceeded that for nonemployed wives by 40 percent.””
As any of my regular readers know, I am not a huge fan of Focus on the Family because of how much they pretend to be for the traditional family, yet they utterly gut Biblical gender roles with many things they teach. But in this instance the author of this article is absolutely right that “As the boundaries that once separated the sexes crumble, so do the boundaries that protect marriage.”
One of the many reasons I have argued against careerism for women is that mixing men and women together in a workplace for 40 to 50 hours a week, especially in fast paced or high stress level environments will inevitably lead to extramarital affairs. And the stats as Focus on the Family has shown prove that.
The only men that women can be close friends with are close blood relatives or their husbands. That is, it. Otherwise you always run the risk of that friendship turning into something it should not. Yet our progressive friends living in their pretend little world want to deny this basic tenant of human nature even though evidence to contrary surrounds them each and every day.
Whether it be socialism or egalitarianism, the only way these systems survive is on the backs of the capitalist and patriarchal systems they so detest. The capitalists make all the money for the socialists to spend and the Patriarchal families produce the children for egalitarians to later indoctrinate.
So, at some point when enough of the capitalists and patriarchal families get tired of supporting those who detest their way of life and values and actually band together then these horrible social experiments will finally come to an end.
But until that day of reckoning comes, we as Bible believing Christians need to follow the command God gave to parents in Israel:
“And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart: And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up. And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes. And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.” – Deuteronomy 6:6-9
Whitney Houston, like Focus on the Family was often wrong in her life’s philosophies. But she was right in her song that “The Children Are Our Future”. That is Biblical. The struggle for the future is a struggle for the hearts and minds of our children and young adults.
Conservative Christian families in America have far more children than secular progressive families do. We just need do what Deuteronomy 6:6-9 admonishes us as Christian parents do and heavily indoctrinate our children with the Word of God.
We don’t need to shelter our children from the world, but rather we need to expose each and everything they see in the news and around them to the light of the Word of God. We need to show them why God’s way is right and the world’s way is wrong.
But at the same time, we need to reach out to a generation of young adults whose minds are still moldable. Many of these young people came from homes where they have never been exposed to the teachings of the Word of God. We need to share these truths with them and expose the lies of socialism, egalitarianism and secularism humanism.
We can actually use ridiculous notions like this idea of putting women into combat units with men to open up conversations with young people. We can show them how a Biblical world view that teaches the reality of gender differences and why they exist is far superior to these views that deny the real and stark differences between the genders.
36 thoughts on “Water is Wet and Women Don’t Belong in Combat”
I actually disagree here. I’ve worked in male dominated areas my entire career. There was a time when I considered joining the military. I’ve also considered law enforcement as well. I’m a woman who is on the smaller side and I’ve seen no red flags in keeping up with the men, I only have to push myself harder. I really don’t think there is a biblical place within my career choices. If women and men should be kept separate for concern of unfaithfullness then maybe those individuals need to learn self control and morals.
I completely agree with you. As far back as I can remember, my mother told me “Men and women cannot be friends” and she was absolutely right. It is mantra I have repeated again and again to my own children, although I think only the 21 yo is beginning to believe me. They’ll find out it’s true, either the easy way or the hard way. This was even addressed in a popular 1990 movie “When Harry Met Sally”. Harry points out that there is always a sexual component to a friendship between members of the opposite sex, even if only one member is aware of it.
As to women in combat, I find the idea completely and utterly ridiculous, for all the reasons you stated. In addition, Scripture makes it clear that a woman’s place is in the home and if she has extra duties while her husband is deployed, these do not include picking up an AK47 and following him. Her job is to keep home safe and secure for the children as she waits for his return.
I have a relative who served just as women were allowed to train with men. He said it wasn’t good. The women were always on sick call, couldn’t keep up, so they dumbed down the physical fitness, some were experiencing bone fractures, hip displacement, joint damage, loss of menstruation, or abnormally heavy menstruation….and getting knocked up.
There are always outliers. There is always that burly gal that could throw Jason Mamoa like a Scottish caber toss, but the vast majority of women just aren’t physically, mentally, or emotionally suited for the job.
How the heck is a 110 lb, 5′ 1″ girl going to rescue or assist her fellow soldier who is 6’5″ and 245 lbs!? How can she even carry the gear needed?!
War is different, now. It isn’t so much trenches and guerilla tactics, it seems. But, still!
If a woman can prove herself alongside a man, ok. But the idea that ALL of us women ought to be drafted is insane! Women are diagnosed with fibromyalgia and similar conditions at a breaking rate since they started working careers. All we are going to end up with is a pile of sick, broken (or dead) women unable and unwilling to keep up the birthrate.
What it is that makes women see glamor in shit work, I will never know.
Beyond the practice effect on the military is the truth of the Word. There is no warrant in scripture for women in the military, no precedent no principle. The idea is antithetical to such concepts as “keeper at home”, “meek and quite spirit” or under authority of fathers and husbands. It is yet another example of how women are not content in the role that God created them.
@livinginblurrelines. I’m a small woman just a bit larger than your 110lbs 5′ 1″ example you gave and I’m was a wildland firefighter. I know plenty of women who aren’t “burly” who can keep up. It’s called self dcdipline and endurance. It’s totally judgemental to assume only “burly” women could keep up in the military. These scriptures are specific to a woman’s role in marriage not in society.
Sorry about the typos on that. I’m on my phone.
@Sunny- You say, “I really don’t think there is a biblical place within my career choices.” What does that even mean? You can do whatever you want and God doesn’t care? God has no say in what I do with my life? Who God made me to be is of no consideration when it comes to how I spend the best time of my days?
All of those possibilities seem completely contrary to Scripture, but I can’t think of anything else your statement could logically mean. The Bible has everything to do with every choice you ever make. You either make them in obedience to God or in rebellion against Him (ignorantly if not openly).
@Wiscot What I mean by that is that I’m not finding a place in the bible where it says that a woman cannot join such careers. If someone is going to make the statement that small women like myself “aren’t capable” of thriving in such careers then that’s not even biblically based, that’s opinion based. Its also a flase statement as ive seen many women in millitary carrers, including my own family members. I’m not trying to imply that people or women should do whatever they want in life, but I don’t think careers fit the same catagory. Myself (or any other woman) can go work in the military or be a police officer and still come home and be a great wife. If the bible says women are to listen to their husbands, fine I can’t argue that one anymore. However, I don’t think men in society need to be implying what jobs women can and cannot do based on opinion. My career life is entirely different from my normal home life. I’ve seen some excellent women in “men’s jobs.” That’s my main point here.
Here is the place in the Bible where “it says that a woman cannot join such careers”:
The English phrase “keepers at home” is actually a very good translation of the Greek word “Oikouros” which means “keepers or workers at home”. It has the idea that is so offensive to our modern culture that “a woman’s place is in the home”.
This same idea is repeated here:
If God says a woman’s place is in the home, then this is actually saying women should not have careers outside the home. And this makes sense because woman was made for man. She is given to him to bear and care for his children and his home while he is out making his mark on the world and providing for his family.
When a woman pursues a career outside the home especially for her own fulfillment, she is finding fulfillment NOT in that which God created her for (which is her husband, her children and her home) – but rather she is finding it in something else.
Now does this mean a woman may never leave her home? Of course not. This does not preclude women from shopping buying and selling things in the market like the Proverbs 31 wife does. But the focus of her life is on her home.
The lie of the career woman is that you can be the best wife and mother you can be and also be the best career woman you can be. That is patently false. You cannot be in two places at once.
I work with career women and I have for 20 years. They spend 40 to 50 hours a week at their jobs, fight traffic and then come home to give the little that is left of their energy to their homes, children and husbands. They were sold a lie, that “you can have it all”. No ladies you can’t. For a man his wife, his children and his home is only a part of his mission that God has given him. God has also given him a huge part of his mission outside of his home to make his mark on the world. But for a woman her husband, her children and her home ARE her mission. Having a career is not part of the mission God gave her.
A woman must decide whether she will follow God’s calling for her life or not. Will she give the majority of her energy and time to the mission God gave her which is to serve her husband, her children and the needs of her home or will she give the majority of her energy and time to a mission God did NOT give her while giving the little that she has left to the true mission God did give her?
So lets break down the reality of this.
If a woman is police officer working 40 to 50 hours a week will she have the time to dedicate to caring for her children, making meals for her family, caring for the domestic needs of the home and having the energy to please her husband and meet his needs that a wife who stays home will? The answer is absolutely not.
If a woman is in the military and especially if she gets deployed, will she even be at home to serve her children, her husband and the needs of her home? Absolutely not.
As a Christian woman, your “career life” is NOT “entirely different” from your “normal home life”. That is false separation. As a woman your place is in the home. Your “normal home life” as you call it is supposed to be the life God has for you. It is to be center piece of your life, the thing to which you devote the vast majority of your time and energy.
Now of course the question will be raised “What if a woman’s husband died, gets disabled or abandons her?” well in this case because we live in sin cursed world where men die, get disabled or abandon their wives sometimes women will have to step into the man’s role of being the provider for the home in addition to her fulfilling her role to take care of the domestic needs of the home. But this is not God’s ideal that women should strive for.
While I have not published an article specifically on women and careers in some time I have written on this in the past.
I would encourage you to look at this article I wrote this subject:
@biblicalgenderroles Using that logic just about everyone my age is living in sin due to economic circumstances. Very few people my age aren’t living without debt therefore causing the majority of women to work outside the home. We can say that they should have not acquired the debt to begin with. We can say that men’s wives shouldn’t divorce and leave their ex husband’s obligated to pay child support but that isn’t the reality for MY generation. Am I living in sin because I married a man who owes child support for the next 12 years due to his cheating ex? Along side of those scriptures, I believe a woman can be a “keeper of the home” while also maintaining a job outside the home. It’s much harder to do both, but it certainly can be done.
The Scriptures tell us “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God” (Romans 3:23). We all miss the mark and the miss the standards that God has set for our lives in different ways. We all have made bad decisions. I know I have made many decisions in my life some of which I still live with the consequences today.
Sometimes we even make bad decisions out spiritual ignorance or blindness. Sometimes that blindness and ignorance is a result of the culture we live in and the family we were brought up in. But the real choice is this – once we realize the sin we are living in do we just throw up our hands and go “oh well” or do we chart a path to live the way God would have us to – to the best of our ability.
The Bible tells us in Romans 6:1 “What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?”
The Bible also tells us “For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.” (Hebrews 4:12). God knows our hearts and out intents. And his Word when it is revealed to us will show us what our heart’s intent really is.
Jesus also said this regarding sins of ignorance verses willful sin:
I am positive that God has nothing but pity for a woman whose husband has died, or has become disabled or has abandoned her and she must provide for herself and her family. There is absolutely no sin on her part in doing so. Other young women because they have not been taught the Word of God by their parents are encouraged to go off to college rack of thousands of dollars of debt, have careers and then eventually get married. Then have children and go back to their career and ship their children off to daycare. Many of these women find as soon as they marry what a mistake they made by it is too late. They have racked up so much debt they have to work many years to repay it. Others put themselves in debt for fancy homes and cars trying to keep up with the Jones. Were there sins of ignorance in some of these cases? Absolutely.
But we must also acknowledge that for many young women pursuing careers has NOTHING to do with economic necessity or even ignorance. They know and have heard what the Bible says about women being in the home and they flat out reject it. They explain it away and ignore it for one reason – their own selfish ambitions.
That is why we must attack this problem in a multifaceted way.
1. We must catch these young women as I am trying to do BEFORE they make the mistake of heading down the career path.
2. We must teach them God’s design and desire for women that they be keepers in the home.
3. We must teach men they are responsible to be the providers for their home, not their wives. And yes that means sacrifice. It means having a smaller home and used cars instead of a bigger home and two new cards. It means simpler vacations rather than lavish ones and some years it might mean no vacation at all. And we must teach men that college is not the answer for all men, and really most men. It is often a waste of time and money unless you are very intelligent and are going into a STEM field or law or some field that absolutely requires it.
The skilled trades are SCREAMING for young men to become apprentices. My son dropped out highschool, got his GED and became a plumbers apprentice at age 17. Two years later he is now making 50K a year at the age of 19! He has a friend that went into carpentry at the same time and he is now making 50K a year. And this is not the sealing for them. They can do better over the next decade.
I am trying to help young people to realize that they can do it God’s way! They just need to make right choices at the beginning so they don’t spend years paying for their mistakes and having to have their wives work because they were trying to follow the world’s materialistic views.
Sunny I am sorry but you cannot be a full time wife and mother(keeper at home) as God has called you to be and a full time career woman. You will either be a part-time wife and mother and full time career woman or you will be full time wife and mother. That is it. We should aim for God’s design.
@BGR, thank you. I needed the affirmation from your last comment today! God is so good with His timing!
If I can’t be a full time employee and a full time wife then what is the point in even keeping my current relationship status? What’s the point in continuing to strive to be a good wife when I’ve technically already failed just because I provide income for my family? My daughter is in school while I’m at work. She’s doing excellent and is 2 grade levels above the standard for her age. She is likely to skip a grade level if she contines her pattern. She’s enrolled in sports, heathly and happy. My house is clean, my bills are paid, I am trim and in shape, my family eats well and we are making progress on debt pay off. No, I don’t have a lot of downtime but I am beating the challenges in front of me.
Do people consider that maybe certain women are paired with specific men because God has gifted these husbands with a helper that can multi task and help on a financial level too? God knows our circumstances and our hearts. My heart is in the right place and that is the truth of many other women like myself. One cannot make a broad assumption that “no women can do both jobs well” because it isn’t always the case for everyone. Nobody is forcing working moms to feed their kids fast food, nobody is forcing them to have a messy home, nobody is forcing them to have a bad additude. All of those are personal choices NOT circumstances. It’s safe to say that working full time and being a mom is harder, but implying it impossible (or sinful) to do both up to standard is a copout. You’re tired from work so you’re forced to feed your family fast food? Seriously, what a joke. Prep the meals the night before and plan ahead. There are ALWAYS solutions, you just have to be mindful enough to implement them.
@Sunny, I know some women like you who rock both worlds….home and career. But, you are implying that most women can do as you do. While BGR is pointing out that most women can’t. I can’t. I only work part time and try as I might, my body and mind just shut down. I can’t find enough hours in a day, and I have to take supplements to keep from falling apart. But, when I am a full time homemaker I thrive.
There are always outliers and you must be one of them, and that’s ok. But BGR is right. It is better for women to be at home. At the very least, I wish homemaking was still held up as an excellent thing because this careerism and feminism has pushed many women who desire to be homemakers into the workforce and they, their homes, and their families are falling apart.
@livinginblurredlines The life of a modern mom is nothing compared to what women used to have to do 100 years ago. Do you think that our ancestors had lots of downtime? Imagine how hard life would be for us women without modern conviences like electricity, cars, disposable diapers and grocery stores. Working women are using the extra time that we wouldn’t have had 100 years ago and replacing it with something else productive by providing an income. Your problem could be that you’re telling yourself you “can’t”. If you believe you can’t do something then you’re getting in your own way. The majority of women my age are working parents or only stay home for a couple of years.
BGR is right though, you should pray for the energy to get yourself though the day. It’s something I’ve had to do many times. I don’t ask for much. I don’t pray about everything. I pray mostly for the people around me. I pray to keep my family safe. I pray that one day my husband will find God. At times where my energy is low, I pray about that too. I’ve never prayed that my husband would work more hours so that I didn’t have to, that just seems strange to me. I’m very selective about what I pray for because I want God to know what really matters to me. I don’t want anything that I pray for to come off as selfish to God, so I ask for very little. I push myself out of my comfort zone for my family and for God on a daily basis. I believe a woman can go out and work (military included) and be an excellent wife at home. It’s all up to a person’s choices. There are literally people with serious disabilities who are star althletes so what’s our excuse? I think with prayer and a positive mindset you CAN do it! I also believe that I can be a great wife and learn to have a better additude with my husband (as that’s something I struggle with). I’m actively choosing these things they don’t just come naturally for me either. Also, I’ve seen some kick butt women in the military.
I think you are focused on the wrong thing. You are focusing on woman’s ability or having the energy to do something or not do something. But what you are missing is that man and woman were made by God to paint a picture.
That is our purpose. So whether you feel you are capable of keeping the home and having a career at the same time is irrelevant. The reason God created male human beings and the reason he made female human beings were for very different purposes.
He says to men – “Image me by being like me, be the strong protector, leader and provider that I am to mankind – be that to your woman, your wife”. And he says to the woman “Depend on your husband’s strength, his protection his leadership and his provision as my people are to depend on me”.
When you go out and and work and help your husband provide so he won’t have to work as much you are breaking the model God wanted you to present. You are not painting the picture he called you to paint. We were not made to serve ourselves and do things how we want to do it. We were made to paint a picture from the beginning of creation. When you do not place yourself completely upon your husband’s provision you are painting the picture to the world that we as humanity cannot fully depend on God’s provision. We need to help God out.
Now please do not misunderstand me. It you are forced to work because your husband makes you work or because he is disabled or because you have no husband that is completely different story. This is outside your control. Yes the picture is still broken and it is not painted correctly, but that is because of this sinful world and things that are outside your control. God only holds you responsible for your own decisions. But if you could stay home full time, but you simply choose not to because you think you can do “so much more” that is a decision to purposefully break the model God wanted you to portray with your life. You are refusing to paint the picture with your life that he wanted you to paint. That is the very definition of selfish ambition. Selfish ambition is when we are ambitious to do something God never intended for us to do.
In God’s created order men can totally fulfill their obligation to be husbands and fathers while also fulfilling their obligations to be workers. But a woman cannot totally fulfill her obiligations as a wife and mother and also be a full time worker outside the home. For her husband his being a husband and father is only part of his mission from God, for a woman being a wife and mother IS her mission. This is the totality of it. Remember the Scriptures tell us in I Corinthians 11:9 that “Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.“.
A woman was not created to be a soldier, a police woman, an engineer, a politician, a writer, a painter, a construction worker, a school teacher, a college professor, a scientist, an athlete or any other occupation. She was given her humanity and her very life for the sole purpose of being a companion, a lover, a mother and a homemaker for man. Now are there some things a woman can do from home as she keeps a full presence in the home as God intends? Yes. I know women who write books or blog as stay at home wives. Women can help teach other women from their homes.
You said to livingblurredlines “Your problem could be that you’re telling yourself you “can’t””. But respectfully, your problem and the problem of many women today, including women who join military, is telling yourselves as women that you “can” do something God never intended you to do.
1. How is our society going to function if we lost all the women in the workforce? The majority of teachers and people that work at the hospital near me are women.
2. I guess in a world that lived by that standard a lot of women would simply choose not to marry or consider having children men.
3. It seems entirely selfish to watch my husband take on more hours instead of doing it myself.
@Sunny, it is not my place to tell you how to live your life or your marriage, but I can tell you that my husband has thrived because I was at home. If a child was sick, he didn’t need to worry about it. If the school called for whatever reason, I am there. If the plumber/electrician/roofer needs to come, I am home. He can focus entirely on his career and never worry about home. That is not to say he does nothing, he does a great deal, but because he chooses to and he sees certain things (car maintenance, i.e.) as “guy” things. My “keeping the home fires burning” frees him to focus on providing and protecting. Sure, I made very good money, but he earns nearly 7 figures a year because he has nothing to worry about at home. I believe that is what is meant by “helpmeet”. I support him emotionally, I encouraged him, he knew whatever decision he made I was 100% behind him, even if I was afraid some times. Yes, sometimes I miss my career, even 22 years later, but I know I am living the role God meant me to live and I know my husband’s success is partly due to our accepting our roles.
Again, I mean absolutely no criticism, it is not my place. I am simply debating your point #3. Which, BTW, is why I want my daughters to have an education and be able to support themselves. I am not convinced they will find a husband who wants traditional roles.
The children are suffering without the mother in the home. Daycare, followed by pre-school, etc. results in a deficit of quality time and bonding with the mother for small children. Those first 5 years are critical in the life and development of the child. Studies are now showing this to be true (at least I now see occasional articles that speak to this.).
Perhaps a larger and quite relevant question here is: Why have we allowed the economy and the social norms to work against the traditional family and traditional parental roles? I think it has to do in large part with how we have inverted our economy and values such that finance and the banks siphon off much of the wealth of the economy which is the fruit of our collective labors. To be concise: finance exists in an ancillary role to act as a lubricant (so to speak) for the engine of the economy so that the economy serves and satisfies the needs of the family. Today, in the US, and much of the Western world, families are in economic servitude and go out to work each day to effectively enrich the kings of finance. Finance is supposed to serve and work for the economy, but now the economy serves finance.
Tangentially, there is an important work that came out around late 2005 written by Matthias Chang that addressed how we have become “Brainwashed for War: Programmed to Kill” (that is the title). Jesus said “Blessed are the peacemakers” – so, why are we now fighting constant wars and glorifying war?!
@Alice Your husband makes a lot of money. I’m married to an average man with piles of debt including child support. I’ve already chose to embrace the fact that I will always be a provider. I have owned my decision and learned to embrace the positivity in it.
If I weren’t married I would have joined the military or became a police officer and I wouldn’t have felt I was wrong in doing so. I’ve heard some men say they don’t want women in those careers because they want to protect women from getting hurt. I guess that’s reasonable but it’s not a man’s job to protect every woman out there. Of course there are differences in men and women. I won’t even try to deny that, but to outright object women in combat because of it? I feel like that’s not a place for men to decide. It’s not their life, it’s ours.
@Sunny, when we were first married and until I stopped working, I made more money than my husband did. I also have six children, which would never have happened if I had had to continue to work.
I don’t think it is men who decide what women can and cannot do, in the US that is clearly not the case, it is God. Mind you, I’m RC and the Church seems to see it your way, although it is not frowned upon to stay at home, it is fairly uncommon. I don’t think I know more than one or two mothers at the Catholic grade school my children attend who stay at home. We are looked down upon, as if either we are low IQ (makes me laugh inside, I am a member of MENSA) or sponges. I don’t care (much, it does get tiresome), my family is thriving.
I wish you all the best, I would have a very difficult time living your life.
Here are the answers to your questions:
Answer: I never said we would loose all the women in the workforce. But society for 7000 years operated just fine with the vast majority of women at their homes. And they did work, but just at their home. And when they went out to the market or other places their children went with them. Before the mid 19th century less than 7 percent of women were classified as working mothers and part of the workforce. But after the mid 19th century a small increase
It is was only after the beginning of the American woman’s rights movement in the mid 19th century that this number began to grow, be it ever so slowly. By 1900 it had grown to 9 percent, and then by the start of World War I in 1914 it had grown to 13 percent. It dropped a bit to 10 or 11 percent just before WWII and then during WWII jumped back to 13 percent. By then end of WWII it was at 19 percent. After that from 1950 to 1960 it jumped to 30 percent and from the 60’s forward it was a massive increase each decade so that bu the 2010 census 80 percent of women were working full time outside the home. Thankfully we have seen a bit of a decrease in women working outside the home over the last decade as more women have seen the impact of working on their marriages and children. It is not back down to around 72 percent of women working outside the home.
There are several points that can be correlations that be show with these numbers. First the divorce rates and children born out of wedlock rates have spiked in direct correlation with women being more economically independent of men. But this also shows something else going to your question – society did just fine with just 7 percent of women in the workforce before the mid 19th century. It would take hard adjustments but it could be done again. And there are two ways it can happen. One way could be a very gradual over the next century where more women return to God’s Word and choose to do what he made them for. The second way would be more sudden at some future point when the world population continues to decline because women who are more educated and have careers have less children than is needed to keep the population stable and growing. Then the change would be revolution and a sudden removal of women’s rights(something like the Hand Maid’s Tale).
Again you are missing the point – the “standard” is God’s standard. You are thinking if a woman does not marry then she can do what she wants. That is not what God allows. God’s rule is for both men and women to marry and he gives and exception to his rule for someone to serve him in celibacy. But God knows a woman’s heart – if she is choosing not to marry so she can do what she wants, and not from a heart to serve God then she is still in sin even in celibacy. That is not what celibacy is for.
You are using your own human reasoning, instead of looking at God’s reasoning. You are missing the point. It about painting the picture he designed you to paint. Its not about doing what you think works best. It is what God wants that is always best. It is not selfish for you or any woman to stay home full time to keep your home while your husband works, even long hours to support you. It is selfish for you to step outside your role because you think you have a better plan than God did.
Remember that standard for right and wrong, for sin itself is God’s standard. Not our feelings.
2. I guess in a world that lived by that standard a lot of women would simply choose not to marry or consider having children men.
3. It seems entirely selfish to watch my husband take on more hours instead of doing it myself.
@Alice I don’t think you being a stay at home wife implies that you have a low IQ. It’s too bad people make those assumptions. Maybe I’m the idiot for doing more work than I probably need to haha.
@BRG I don’t think it’s God’s plan for me to stay at home. If I left my job then my marriage would probably fall apart due to lack of finances. If that happened it would be my fault for dropping the ball. Yes, our population is dropping but I’m a bit perplexed by that because growing up I was always told that we were overpopulated. I have one child, so I’ve done my part contributing to the population. I don’t think we would need to convert to a Handmaid’s Tale type of circumstance. The Handmaid’s tale got too violent, you’d end up with high suicide rates. I’m sure if it got that bad the government could just reward or pay families to have more children. I guess that’s a whole different topic though.
@sunny, thank you. I live in a suburb of NYC and the norm here is working couples with women having their first child at ~38. When I had my 6th at 42 the hospital staff assumed it was my first. Being a SAHM is lonely, here.
@Alice, I had my first (and my only) at age 21. Where I live, most people in my age group start having kids between 22-30. I thought for a while that I’d never want another child but now I’m finding myself wanting another baby. While I deeply want another child, I know it’s not a wise idea. I don’t want my daughter to rely on a man when she grows up. We live in a society where women are no longer dependent on men. In ways, maybe that’s safer. Men already dropped the ball several times, maybe it’s time women just hold their own?
Again I think you missed an important concept that I discussed with livinginblurredlines in this thread. While it is God’s perfect plan and his design that all wives and mothers be keepers in the home (full time in homemakers) we live in a sin cursed world. Some women must work because their husbands died, divorced them or became disabled. Other women like livinginblurredlines must work not for any of the three reasons I just mentioned but simply because their husbands have aske them to. Some husbands might have a good reason for asking – perhaps some temporary financial tragedy has happened and there is no way the husband can dig them out on their own. Still other husbands want to take the easy way out – instead having to work 60 or 70 hours a week they choose to send their wives out to work 40 hours so they can only work 40 hours. Still I have seen other men who could give their family a decent living even on just 40 or 50 hours but they are just plain greedy and materialistic so they still send their wives out to work.
But in this situation of a husband sending his wife to work the wife must obey her husband. That means she has double duty – she must work and also come home to keep the house. Now many today would say – “well if he is sending to her work than he should divide the house work with her”, and a husband could do this. But the wife cannot grow bitter if he does not. He may be completely wrong in sending her to work, but the sin is on him not on her.
A wife’s sin comes when she chooses to leave being a keeper of the home full time, not because her husband asks her work or wants her to work, but her either her own ambition for more.
It sounds to me like your husband wants to you to work, especially if you think your marriage would fall apart due to money concerns. I understand this. I too have child support that I must pay to my first wife – two of my children are grown, but I still pay support on my younger three. And with my wife being disabled and us having only my income it is very tight.
Also because my wife is disabled, I have to take care of much of the domestic needs of the home – grocery shopping, cooking, and laundry. My wife helps where she can when she can but I still am responsible for the lion’s share. But it is my job to teach my children this is not God’s ideal. This is only happening because of the curse of sin on the world. In God’s design my wife would be taking care of all these things I do in the home to paint the picture God wants painted.
In the same way, I am not saying you have to quit your job tomorrow. If your husband wants you to work and it would destroy your marriage for you to quit then don’t quit. But you can at the same time acknowledge that this is not God’s ideal or his design as I do with my family. Now if your husband came under the conviction of God that he needed to be your provider and worked to pay off debts over the next few years to do so all with the plan of allowing you to stay home full time would you do it? That is the real question.
Based on your earlier comments I believe the answer is no. Because you believe because of modern amenities women are wasting their time staying home and that they should be out working. So this is not so much about the necessity of your current situation with your husband and his child support, but more of where your heart is on the issue. If I am wrong please correct me. If your husband wanted to clear your debts so could stay home and your heart is to fully dedicate yourself to your home please let me know – but I don’t sense that in your comments so far.
@BRG. Fair point. You’re half right on what my answer would be. If we cleared our debts and my husband wanted me to stay home I would hesitate. Your reasoning on ‘why’ I would say no is a bit off though. It’s not out of blunt rebellion that I do this. It’s because I don’t trust this economic system and honestly I’m terrified of failure. What if I left work and then he lost his job later on? That sort of possibility really concerns me. In my head I see it as watching out for our family but it comes off different to an outside perspective. I can’t totally give up control because I don’t trust that things will get done or that my family will be safe.
@BGR You said that if a husband tells his wife to work just out of his own selfishness, that his wife has to obey, but doesn’t the bible say that if your husband is asking you to commit a sin, the wife doesn’t have to obey? Or does that only apply to bigger sins like a threesome or something?
@Sunny – one thing I have learned is that time and time again, when I have chosen to do what is right instead of letting my fear drive me to doing what is wrong, God has delivered. Be careful with the idea that you can rely upon yourself; there are things outside of your control and this is a false sense of security. Who can you count on? The one who is always working everything for good for those who love Him.
The Scriptures tell us:
Sunny your statements that you cannot give up control, that you cannot trust and that you are teaching your daughters to be independent and not need a man are the exact opposite of what the Bible says.
You are living your life faithlessness and fear instead of living by faith and placing your trust in God and his plan. Without faith it is impossible to please God. Without giving your fear to God and trusting him you can never love as he loves and wants you to love.
But this is not something any of us can do for you. I pray that you will one day give your fear to God and place your full faith and trust in his plan for your life.
Sex outside of a marriage covenant between a man and woman is always sin. It is not always a sin for a woman to work.
A woman taking on a full time job outside the home because of necessity is righteous and just. But if she does this same action out materialism, greed, worry or selfish ambition it then becomes sin.
The same goes for her husband, if he sends her to work out of necessity, then it is righteous and just. If he sends her to work out materialism, greed, worry or selfish ambition it then becomes sin.
So in the case of a woman working full time, the sin lay with the person who makes this decision to do this for the wrong reason. So if the man sends his wife to work for the wrong reason, the sin lay with him. If the woman decides to do this on her own for the wrong reason the the sin is with her.
What is Numbers 30 talking about? Its talking about decisions. God only holds a woman responsible for HER decisions. Not her husbands husbands decisions. And her husband may be wrong in many decisions he makes. But then the sin lay with him.
@sunny, most men have indeed dropped the ball, although it does seem like they were forced to. I don’t mind if my daughters are dependent on their husband but I definitely don’t want them to HAVE to be. In the US, in 2019, it is just too risky, so my husband and I are making sure they are fully capable of taking care of themselves in every way should the need arise. I have a feeling things are going to get worse before they get better.
If I had a daughter (I don’t) I would teach her His ways and I would hope/pray for her to meet a Godly man who will step up to be responsible. I would not teach her to go out and have an independent life, but to do things that put her in the best position to fully realize the Lord’s goals for her life as a woman. Does that mean she needs to go to college? I’m not sure, would that college experience prepare her more or work against what God wishes her to be? I’d almost rather she work and save money and live at home instead of getting acclimated to the single independent life and its pursuits.
@Alice, I believe you are right. I also think things are going to get worse before they get better. Every empire falls and I’m concerned that the American empire is on the verge of a giant crash. I have dreams about it constantly. It might be easy to call it stress, but I really feel like it’s going to happen in my lifetime.
Anm1@ My family never would have let me live with them after the age of 18 and save up money. I think that’s a great opportunity for kids that are given that chance. I was pushed to start working by the age of 17 (while i was still in highschool) and move out by the age of 18. If I hadn’t done this my parents would have called me a failure or charged me rent. It really goes to show how raising kids a certain way will shape them (for better or worse)
@sunny, my husband is in the finance industry and I can tell you that the word on Wall St. is that a giant economic crash is coming within the next 12 months. I’m sorry, I’m not permitted to say more, but I am authorized to tell you that the 2008 crash was only a precursor to what’s coming.
@Anm1, I still find it too risky. While I really enjoy this site and have learned a great deal from it, I think I would feel very uncomfortable if my daughters married men like 99% of the commenters, or the commenter’s husbands, here. Finding your way to your Godly role in a marriage is a deeply personal thing and I find some of the comments here smacking of entitlement and male superiority. Nor would I wish my sons to behave in these ways. So, while I pray my daughters will find Godly men and they can fulfill their roles as women, I don’t like the odds, so I’m making sure they’ll be ok, either way. My husband feels even more strongly about this than I do.