158 responses to “Reverencing, Ravishing and Rollo”

1. 

   biblicalgenderroles

   October 24, 2015 at 10:53 pm

   Jeff,

   The concept of human property is undeniable fact in the Scriptures. The Old Testament prescribes how slaves and wives may be bought and that a man’s wife and children were considered his property, along with any slaves he owned. It even talks about slaves he acquired from other nations be able to be passed down as an inheritance to his children. Only Israelite men could be kept for a maximum of 7 years and then they had to freed unless they chose to stay for life of their own free will. Israelite women sold as slaves other Israelite men would be kept for life.

   If a man had sex with a woman that was his slave he had to make her a wife and give her the rights of a wife, only if she were a slave he did not have to give her children inheritance rights. In the New Testament Paul spends a great deal of time addressing slaves and masters and telling slaves to obey their masters and treat them with respect. He even addresses believing masters who had believing slaves – he never tells them they have to free their slaves or they could not take anymore slaves.

   But here is the kicker – you are assuming as most modern Westerners do because of how horribly Americans as well as other countries in times past have treated their slaves(human property) or even their wives and children(again seen as human property) that their “desires and needs did not matter”.

   While the Scriptures(both Old and New Testaments) allowed for the concept of human property – they did NOT allow a person to mistreat that human property. Slaves had human rights(as defined by God) and so did wives and children have rights(as defined by God).

   So yes you are right that men acquired wives as they acquired cattle. But you are wrong that just because they bought their wives and women had less rights than they do today that women(and wives) had no rights at all.

   See these two posts I wrote on the subjects of Biblical human rights and the concept of Biblical human property
   https://biblicalgenderroles.com/2015/07/10/biblical-human-rights-vs-american-human-rights/
   https://biblicalgenderroles.com/2015/07/10/does-the-bible-teach-the-concept-of-human-property/

   I do not see my wife as simply an object to fulfill my needs(whether they be sexual or caring for my children or caring for my home.) My wife is a person with her own thoughts, feelings and desires. However my wife, who is a person, has a duties and obligations that she took on the day she made a commitment of marriage to me before God. I in the same way have duties to her that that I took on that same day when I made a commitment of marriage before God. Part of my duty as a husband and the head of my home(the ‘Alpha’ in Rollo’s terms) is to see that both my wife and children are fulfilling their God given duties.

   I am to teach them and guide them, and discipline them when necessary. My wife is not responsible for my behavior, but to a certain extant I am responsible before God for my wife’s behavior to the extant that I need to us correlation and discipline to help her be the best wife God would have her to be.

   With that being said – I do think it is healthy for men to tell their wives they love them on a regular basis – which I do. I think it is healthy for us to on occasion tell our wives we think they are pretty. But my wife knows she has to earn me telling her she looks pretty or beautiful. If my wife dolls herself up in either a sexy shirt I like with a tighter pair of jeans she is going to get some compliments. If she wears a dress she knows I like and it accentuates her ample cleavage she is going to get compliments. However if my wife sits around in sweats and big tee shirts or does not wear outfits that accentuate her beauty, or she leaves her hair all ratty then she won’t get any compliments on her appearance that day – this is an example of correlation.

   I disagree though with the concept that men have to get in touch with their feminine side, become all emotional and vulnerable with their wives in order to have a good and healthy marriage. Is there a place on occasion for vulnerability like in the case of the death of loved one or some other family tragedy – yes. Women at their heart of hearts are attracted to men because we are different then them. Many women think they want their husbands to become more emotional, but in the end they end up respecting them less as a man for it – if it occurs too regularly.

2. 

   biblicalgenderroles

   October 25, 2015 at 12:40 am

   Rollo,

   Your Statement:

   “Christian men are far too ready to overextended themselves with emotionalism, comfort, rapport and anything else they believe will maintain their wives’ and/or chaste girlfriends’ sustained interest in them. They’ve been taught to defer to and respect women by default because when your potential wife is your only ordained sexual release their lives and happiness literally depend on their wives’ appeasement.

   They are pre-whipped by their own doing, and their wives are put into a state of being emotional extortionists over them. Some exploit this, most are uncomfortable in being ‘his everything’.”

   I agree 100% with what you have stated here as to what the problem is. I think the issue really again comes down to how we solve this problem. I agree that men need to be the heads of their home(the ‘Alpha’ in your words) and the need to consistently exercise their headship. Women respect a man who will lead and is not afraid to tell them no or confront sinful behavior, whether they consciously always realize this or not is another issue.

   With the assumption that you have fully implemented your “soft dread” approach with your wife here are some questions(if you don’t mind) I have for you that would help me understand your beliefs regarding sex in marriage better:

   1. Does your wife ever directly refuse you by just saying “No” without any explanation? If she does how do you handle this?
   2. If you go to initiate sex with your wife does she ever give you a rain-check(soft “Not tonight”, but with an explanation)? If she does how do you handle it?
   3. Do you feel that your wife ALWAYS desires sex with you, or do you think she ever fakes it for your benefit?

3. 

   biblicalgenderroles

   October 25, 2015 at 12:44 am

   Rollo,

   One other statement I forgot I wanted to ask you about – you talked about Christian men being taught that their wives are their “only ordained sexual release”.

   Do you believe masturbation is an option for sexual release – not as a replacement for sex in marriage, but as a ‘supplement’ so to speak?

   I am very curious what your position is on this.

4. 

   Rollo Tomassi

   October 25, 2015 at 1:29 am

   1. Does your wife ever directly refuse you by just saying “No” without any explanation? If she does how do you handle this?

   I’m going to presume you mean saying “No” to sex, but I think this could also be in general too. I’m at a point in my marriage (almost 20 years) where I simply don’t initiate sex unless the conditions are right. I know my wife so well that there’s never a question of yes or no. I don’t ask her for sex, we simply know when it’s good to go.

   2. If you go to initiate sex with your wife does she ever give you a rain-check (soft “Not tonight”, but with an explanation)? If she does how do you handle it?

   Like I stated above, I don’t initiate unless it’s favorable and the way I want to get after it. We’re both fairly even when it comes to initiating sex, but I have turned down sex either to amplify her desire or to hold out for a condition I think would make for a better experience.

   Early in my marriage I used to do the ‘scheduled sex’ or ‘rain-check sex’ until I realized that the IOU sex that came after was never worth my scheduling and made sex some kind of ‘good boy’ award. I was too focused on the frequency like it was some quota that had to be met. Scheduling sex is the worst thing a husband can do because you make it another chore for your wife – do laundry, clean the bathroom, fuck my husband, fold the clothes,…

   It wasn’t until I realized the effectiveness of soft dread, dread I didn’t even have to instigate, had on making my wife want to step up her own game. There came a point when I said to myself ‘no more quotas’, if she’s DTF great, if not she knows I work around beautiful women every day. Guys who have options don’t schedule sex. Guys who have options don’t need to tell a woman they have options, she understands this because of who and what he is. When you start scheduling, when you start accepting ‘rain-checks’ the message you convey to your wife is that you lack options and her estimation of you diminishes.

   I’m not a good guy for men to model their marriages on. I’ve worked in the liquor and gaming industry for more than 10 years and I’m regularly around beautiful women at promos as part of my work. However I can tell you that there are definite patterns to women’s sexual behavior that predisposes them to being sexual with their husbands and one of those knowing he’ll be around her sexual competition, even when she knows that he’s faithful to her. Her making herself sexually available to me before an event is a form of mate guarding for a woman.

   I handled that scheduling, by simply not handling it. There was just a point when I stopped keeping quotas and even that subtle change was enough to trigger her imagination. Guys are far too overt with women because they believe the egalitarian BS about women needing ‘open communication’, so they think women communicate like they do. They’re overt and blunt because they think women need that, but women are far more adept at communication in covert terms, body language, subcommunications, etc. Guy’s think women wont pick up on something unless they call it out loud to them, but little changes mean far more than big showy messages.

   3. Do you feel that your wife ALWAYS desires sex with you, or do you think she ever fakes it for your benefit?

   I used to, until I stopped caring about it. I know Mrs. T well enough to know when she’ll “just do it” or she really want’s to get after it. Thus, like a said before, I don’t bother with initiating at all unless the conditions are favorable. And like I said, I’ll just turn down sex if I think it’s lackluster or “lukewarm”. This has the effect of slightly provoking dread, but more so it’s a message that conveys my want for her real desire and I wont be patronized; and certainly not from a woman I’ve been having sex with for over 20 years.

   Do you believe masturbation is an option for sexual release – not as a replacement for sex in marriage, but as a ‘supplement’ so to speak?

   Quite honestly I’ve never had a problem with premarital sex or masturbation, but I think jerking off is self-defeating for a man. Masturbation sends limbic messages to a woman that a man is Beta. This pretty much sums up my take on it:

   The Pheromonal Beta

5. 

   biblicalgenderroles

   October 25, 2015 at 4:38 am

   Rollo,

   First of all thank you for answering my three questions so clearly and concisely.

   I think I have identified the big issue between your Dread(and perhaps larger Red Pill) philosophy of sex and what I see is the Biblical view of sex which uses duty(obligation),correlation and discipline to spur regular sexual relations between a married couple.

   You believe sex is an ALL or nothing proposition based on your interpretation of “lukewarm” and “hot or cold”. In other words if the woman does not desire it, if the conditions are not right as you say, then sex should not occur. Another way of saying this is, you believe unless the right attitude is there, then a husband should not accept the physical act itself.

   While I point out on this blog that I do believe it is sinful for a wife to have sex with the wrong attitude there are really two separate sins when it comes to sex.

   The first sin is the actual physical denial of sex. If a woman denies her husband sexual access to her body without just cause and mutual consent of her husband then she sins before God.

   The second sin is having the wrong attitude during sex(starfish sex, or displaying displeasure while giving sex).

   So yes a wife sins when she has sex with a wrong attitude, or in a way that shows her displeasure to her husband(emotional denial).
   But she sins even worse by denying him the act of sex completely(physical denial).

   I believe a husband sins when he allows himself to be left in a sexually tempted position by not having sex with his wife. If his wife denies him then the sin lays with her. I believe if a man does not have access to his wife either for legitimate medical or other reasons or because of her blatant denial that masturbation is “a way to escape”(I Corinthians 10:13) this temptation until he can once again come together with his wife or he eventually has to divorce her for sexual denial and then he can marry another woman.

   You believe this(his sexual temptation) is a good thing and spurs him to do great things, the Bible presents a man leaving himself open to sexual temptation to be a bad thing.

   You use Revelation 3:15, a passage not specifically talking about sex – but rather a Church trusting in its riches and not depending on God to define a Biblical philosophy of sex when the entire point of I Corinthians 7 is specifically speaking on sex and paints for us a very different picture.

   “1 Now concerning the things whereof ye wrote unto me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman.

   2 Nevertheless, to avoid fornication, let every man have his own wife, and let every woman have her own husband.

   3 Let the husband render unto the wife due benevolence: and likewise also the wife unto the husband.

   4 The wife hath not power of her own body, but the husband: and likewise also the husband hath not power of his own body, but the wife.

   5 Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency.” – I Corinthians 7:1-5 (KJV)

   When you do not have sex with your wife as often as you feel the need, but rather wait on “the right conditions”(her to be in the mood), then you leave yourself open to greater sexual temptation the longer you go. This is something Christians are discouraged from doing, we are not to allow ourselves to be put in a position of sexual temptation when God has made a way of escape(primarily through sex with our wives and then secondarily through masturbation if she is not available to us).

   Biblically speaking, the first reason for a man and woman to have regularas opposed to sporadic and random sexual relations is to avoid sexual temptation. Obviously this is not the only reason for sex as we can see in Proverbs and Song of Solomon that God gives us sex for our mutual pleasure as well and of course procreation is another reason for sex. But if we are always waiting for the “Perfect sex conditions” to come – and both the husband and wife always need to be in the mood then we are going to leave ourselves open to a lot of sexual temptation.

   So for this reason I must reject the idea of man leaving himself sexually tempted by waiting on “the right conditions”(his wife to be in the mood).
   Also I still don’t believe it is right to even subtly place the idea that we have the opportunity and may cheat in our wife’s head as a way to spur her “genuine desire”.

   While dread may work in some instances depending on the wife and husband I don’t see it as magic pill. Even when it does work I would argue that the way we get to the desired result(our wife truly desiring sex with us, or least faking it really good) is just as important as the result itself.

   It also appears to me that while dread may work in some cases, its primary target is the spurring of desire(whether genuine or faked) but it leaves sexual regularity in the dust.

   It also brings us back to the modern faulty view that sex should only occur when both persons on the mood. That is not a Biblical view of sex from what I can see in the Scriptures.

   I do appreciate you sharing your views and I leave it to my Christian readers to examine the Scriptures as the Berean’s who “searched the scriptures daily”(Acts 17:10-11) to see if what I am presenting is the Biblical approach to sex or if what you are teaching is the Biblical approach to sex.

6. 

   Liz

   October 25, 2015 at 10:58 am

   Very interesting discussion.
   I’d have to say, reading the entire thread, my relationship with my husband of 23 years is probably more (sexually) like the one BGR decribes.
   We have sex pretty much every day. When Mike was out on a trip a few months ago someone asked what the secret to our long, happy marriage was and he said, “Daily sex”. I think regular sex with one’s spouse has addictive properties over time. But sure, I’m not always in the mood and we improvise (fellatio, and so forth).

7. 

   Liz

   October 25, 2015 at 12:07 pm

   FWIW, yeah Mike “roughs up the suspect” (euphemism dat) as well. (yes, even with daily sex)
   His sex drive is seriously uber-high. I don’t know that it sends out beta signals to me. But I’m sure everyone is different.

8. 

   Liz

   October 25, 2015 at 12:57 pm

   I think, ultimately in my personal experience my sexual relationship with my husband is mostly the product of a desire to please him. I value him, so I want him to be happy. I know he has options, but I don’t fear losing him (I’d value him less if I perceived him to be disloyal). I’m not sure insecurity is the driver for “tingles” over the course of a life together. I actually do like it when he flirts and women respond but I think it’s more a personal pride thing, “That’s right! That’s MY man bitches!”. Who knows. It’s interesting to think about and reflect on my own motivations but ultimately if I didn’t feel secure in our marriage it wouldn’t help my libido at all, it would do the opposite…and quickly.
   (sorry for the triple post)

9. 

   insanitybytes22

   October 25, 2015 at 2:34 pm

   Something that is really missing from these discussions Biblical, is that you and Tomassi are all about manipulation, control, influence, and discipline over women’s sexuality as if we are passive creatures that must be conned or coerced into having sex. Women actually have a sexuality all of our own, something we can totally control and learn to understand. Its sad in the world today that women are so disconnected from themselves sexually, and no that is not just a Christian thing, many secular girls are having promiscuous sex with men they don’t even like for reasons they can’t even fathom. When women know themselves and feel sexually empowered, there is no need to wait for conditions to be right or to encourage duty sex. So many women are ashamed of their bodies, ashamed of their desires, and before marriage we are expected not only to repress our own sexuality, but to repress men’s too, for some 20-30 years, and we are constantly shamed for doing it, we’re either sluts or prudes, but regardless we’re doing it wrong.

   People make the mistake of believing that women are sexually empowered these days because sex is so prominently displayed in our culture 24/7, but in truth I believe we are far more repressed and disconnected than our grandmothers were. For example, try saying that most women lurk in the manosphere because while it is certainly repulsive and full of hatred, parts of it can also be titilating, and they will totally freak out on you, as if you have just revealed some shameful secret or something. Just the very concept that women may have sexual triggers and actual desires of our own, is such a huge taboo in our culture. Besides the viciousness and competitiveness of other women constantly trying to shame us, we also get to deal with men who relentlessly seek to control us. Then people wonder why women are so repressed and appear to be ruled by silly notions like hypergamy.

10. 

    biblicalgenderroles

    October 25, 2015 at 3:14 pm

    Glad to hear it Liz – sounds like you have a very Biblical view of sex and a healthy sex life. The true reality is you won’t always be in the mood, but if your spouse needs then you need to gladly and willingly give that to them(that includes men too as I do know of some men that actually deny their wives).

11. 

    biblicalgenderroles

    October 25, 2015 at 3:19 pm

    Liz,

    Absolutely some men have an extremely high sex drive – my parents had sex 5 times a week until my Dad was in his early 50s and had his prostate removed because of cancer. But they still have sex regularly just not as often(which my mom is fine with). I don’t have quite the drive now(in my 40s) that I did in my 20s and 30s where I would desire it every day, but still would desire it at least 2 to 3 times a week(every other day).

    Your husband is doing what I believe to be the Biblical thing – he uses both outlets for sexual release that God has given him in a healthy manner.

12. 

    biblicalgenderroles

    October 25, 2015 at 3:45 pm

    Insanity,

    I have no doubt and I do not disagree that women have the potential to truly enjoy sex, and that women have a sexuality all their own – if they choose to actually tap into it.

    These to me are the issues that we as Christians must acknowledge about sex as it relates to sex in marriage(some of these you will agree with, some you might not):

    1. It is not healthy for women to view sex as some dirty thing that they are not supposed to desire, rather women should be taught to embrace their own sexuality understand their bodies and learn how to cultivate their own sexual desire for their husbands.

    2. Even when a woman does have a healthy view of her own sexuality, and cultivates her own sexual desire – she will not ALWAYS be in the mood to have sex with her husband when he wants to. During these times she needs to still have a good attitude and not display any displeasure to her husband(fake it).

    3. The rebellious wife is a very real thing – she is not a myth like big foot. There are some women that in their heart of hearts will NEVER accept that they should willingly and gladly have sex with their husband even when they are NOT physically desiring sex themselves. Some of these wives may give in so as not to be guilty of physically rejecting their husbands, but they still emotionally reject their husbands by displaying their displeasure to their husbands during sex if they were not in the mood.

    4. Because not all wives are like Liz who gladly gives herself to her husband whether she is in the mood or not, correlation and discipline are necessary. A wife comes to realize that if flatly refuses over a long length of time divorce papers will be coming her way. If the wife obeys the letter of the law and doe not physically refuse, but still shows her displeasure the correlation comes in where she may not get many of her wants fulfilled.

    Now some women are stubborn even to the point of divorce. Others may partially give(and not physically deny) but they still emotionally deny their husbands during sex but they refuse the correlation attempts of their husbands and many of their wants go unmet as a result.

    As I have stated many times on this site – I believe that if women do what is REQUIRED in the Scriptures and reverence and ravish their husbands, then often times their husbands will do what is NOT REQUIRED and give them “some” of their wants outside the bedroom.

13. 

    insanitybytes22

    October 25, 2015 at 4:14 pm

    Okay Biblical, but here’s the problem, one I addressed in my very first comment to you. Not all women are being rebellious, they are genuinely misinformed and unaware of their own sexuality. Men tend to fear our disloyalty, so intentional or not, they will seek to control and repress our sexuality. They then like to punish us for any expression of it. Many men want chaste women, madonnas….but whores in the bedroom that you can totally control and sexually bond to yourselves so we won’t stray. That is a total mixed message, one that can confuse many women. We tend to seek the favor of men, which can be challenging when men send out double and contradictory messages. Than rather then approaching us with love and taking responsibility for the mixed signals women receive, you continue to speak of punishment and discipline as if women are these simple creatures that exist only in the realm of punishments and rewards. What if instead, you were to perceive us as the favored daughters of a most high God and your job being to help us come to understand the nature of ourselves and to embrace our own sexuality? That is what has created genuine loyalty and constant sexual attraction within my own marriage. If I instead had had a husband invested in playing games, perceiving me with contempt, and constantly focusing on discipline, I’d be divorced by now. The concept both you and Tomassi put forth is to perceive women as a kind of vehicle for your own masturbation. That totally violates the whole concept of marriage, of a spiritual union that reflects Christ’s relationship with the church.

14. 

    biblicalgenderroles

    October 25, 2015 at 4:31 pm

    Insanity,

    I agree that not all women are rebellious and some simply are misinformed and unaware of their own sexuality. I also agree that some Christian men send out mixed messages where they want a women to be very sexual in the bedroom but to repress her sexuality outside the bedroom. If they do then that is wrong. Obviously women need to dress appropriately to the occasion. But as you see here on my blog I encourage women to dress sexy even outside the bedroom(wear clothes that accentuate their figures) and please their husbands.

    As far as helping women to understand their own sexuality, I believe this saying is very applicable “you can lead a horse to water, but you can’t make them drink”. So yes husbands can encourage their wives to explore and understand their own sexuality and to cultivate their own sexual desire. But at the end of the day the woman must choose to “drink”.

    I must admit that I am surprised Insanity by your phrase “vehicle of your own masturbation” – this is something I here from feminists and those who reject the Biblical concept that sex is a duty in marriage and that God made a woman’s body for her husbands pleasure. Yes he gave her the ability to enjoy sex as well as she gives her husband pleasure, but she has to choose to tap into that.

15. 

    Jade

    October 25, 2015 at 4:32 pm

    @Rollo , you wrote ” I think jerking off is self-defeating for a man. Masturbation sends limbic messages to a woman that a man is Beta.”

    I can understand how this can be, for many, in many situations, but I just want to point out the other side: When I approach my husband, wearing lingerie, fishing for sex, and he looks at me with a relaxed smile and says, “oh, you look nice, it’s a shame that I already took care of myself, but do that again tomorrow,” it does not in any way tell me he’s Beta. My pride is shocked, and I’ll beat myself up for not sending out stronger signals during the day, and make sure I don’t make the same mistake the next day. By jerking off, he tells me he’s not desperate for me.

    I guess this only works if the woman also has a sex drive, and has a need for intimacy.

    If I felt like every time I glanced permissively in his direction, he’d be all over me like a hungered dog, I’d feel like I somehow held something he couldn’t do without. Now don’t get me wrong, he wants me, but it’s on his terms. I guess it helps that we are “of age” as you may call it. I understand the young’uns can jerk off AND have sex. At this stage of our life, the fact that he has a hand could easily be seen as “soft dread.” At least it feels like that to me.

16. 

    Jeff

    October 25, 2015 at 5:53 pm

    @Rollo:

    “Christian” women find the manosphere irresistible because it gives them the tingles and indignation their ‘safe’ christian-beta husbands and boyfriends don’t provide them with.

    You may have a point. Then again, you may not. See below.

    Christian men are far too ready to overextended themselves with emotionalism, comfort, rapport and anything else they believe will maintain their wives’ and/or chaste girlfriends’ sustained interest in them. They’ve been taught to defer to and respect women by default because when your potential wife is your only ordained sexual release their lives and happiness literally depend on their wives’ appeasement.

    If respecting women is a chore for a man, he’s not much of a man. Respecting women does not mean “emotionalism,” though, or “pedestalization.” Here is that peculiar fear of emotions again, and the whiff of the madonna/whore complex so characteristic of TRP.

    Some guys oscillate between pedestalization and degradation of women, unable to figure out the realistic medium: the fact that women are neither threatening emotional / sexual vampires nor overidealized madonnas, but normal human beings like themselves, albeit with somewhat different wiring. TRP seems to attract exclusively those guys. For some reason, they bought into the Madonna overidealized view of women; but once they learned otherwise, as they would, they overcorrected and decided that all women are hypergamous whores and should be treated as such. This is neither Christian, nor humane. Needless to say, it is also not true. But it shows very well what drives TRP: fear, of women and of emasculation. Men who see life exclusively through the prism of that fear will use manipulation or force to achieve their goals with women, but that’s not healthy or desirable. And obviously not Christian.

    They are pre-whipped by their own doing, and their wives are put into a state of being emotional extortionists over them. Some exploit this, most are uncomfortable in being ‘his everything’.

    That’s true IF you mistake love for clinginess and overemotionalism, etc. A man cannot be his wife’s everything. Conversely, his wife cannot be his everything. Married couples must have separate areas of interests and occupations. It makes them more interesting and attractive to each other. Such relative emotional independence is also a sign of a mature human being.

    I would agree, though, that Christians, and not only, do not get good education about marriage. The Bible is not enough, as much as BGR may disagree.

    So when their wives discover the manosphere or TRP they find men who don’t defer to them and call them out on every ego-investment they’ve ever had with their husbands’ expected appeasements. And that’s exciting, they’ve finally encountered men who tell them “no” instead of “yes dear” and they can’t get enough of it.

    How many Christian, and not, wives have discovered the manosphere and have made it their home? 5? 10? In any case, this does not seem as common as you believe.

    It’s been my long experience that Christian men are taught to maintain very adolescent social skill sets with their wives. Most never ‘date’ enough to gain the experience necessary to make valid assessments of women’s natures and behaviors.

    You don’t have to know all women, just your own, to make your marriage work.

    These men have been taught to believe that their Beta providership, their virtuousness and conviction is what women will find ‘sexy’ and then wonder why all it’s led them to is a sexless, or sex-grudgingly, marriage.

    I’d agree with this, to a point. Unfortunately, women too have been led to believe that a Steady Eddie is all they need to be happy in marriage, attraction be damned. It doesn’t work so well.

    Emotionalism and husbandly comfort and rapport is something they have in spades. That’s why adopting a more Alpha mindset and attitude is an uncomfortable concept for them. They don’t dare rock the comfort boat. They fear any deviation or experiment that might even peripherally lead to their wives’ displeasure will set them on a path to divorce – a divorce they stand to lose everything they’ve built in.

    But that fear conflicts with their need for sex, their sexless marriages and all of the appeasement advice they’ve received from their overly-feminized ‘Christian’ counsellors. Their greater problem isn’t maintaining their caring, overemphasized Beta sentimentality (they were raised to be this way), their problem is reinventing themselves in an Alpha state that their wives will find both believable and arousing.

    Couple of things.

    You keep equating love with emotionalism, clinginess, sentimentality, etc. which is a sign of confusion and insecurity wrt emotions and relationships. No wonder you desire to “kill your inner beta,” if that’s what your “inner beta” is: a confused ball of clinginess. Yeah, you should probably get rid of him. But that does not mean you should turn into an “alpha” sociopath, which is what TRP promotes in its wrongly dichotomous view of men, where you can be either a spinless whipping boy “beta” or an a/hole “alpha.” It is a false choice, from every possible angle, and damaging to men and women alike.

    Yes, women find men who are strong, confident, accomplished, and socially adept attractive. I don’t think this is a revelation. But an assertive, confident man =/= sociopathic RP “alpha” who treats women like s*** in revenge for his real or perceived sexual rejection, past and present.

    The male self-improvement aspect of TRP is not the problem, Rollo. Teaching men to be confident in life and in relationships with women is admirable and useful. But that’s not what TRP does, even though its promoters insist so, despite the evidence to the contrary. TRP problem is that is dehumanizes people, both women and men; pushes the adversarial view of relations between men and women; stokes gender wars; and promotes sociopathy, along with an instrumental approach to human relationships. It is not only unChristian, but it is immoral by any human standards, religious and not. I realize that you do not see it, because this is the world you are steeped in; but it is clear to others.

17. 

    Emily

    October 25, 2015 at 6:07 pm

    ” Part of the reason, I think, is because women know that ‘faithful’ crap is a lie”
    Except that is not the case. There are four women here (Dragonfly, Liz, Insanity and I) who, I guess, will all tell you that they believe their husband/partner is faithful. I certainly believe that.

    Anyway, ‘dread game’ would not have helped your first wife. The logic… doesn’t add up. Repeated insistence of your faithfulness caused her to doubt your faithfulness, but because of that you think ‘dread game,’ where the woman dreads and doubts your faithfulness, would have saved your marriage? Am I missing something? That makes no sense.

    The truth is that some women (and men) are insanely jealous. These people are inherently self-destructive, and nothing could have saved their marriages.

18. 

    Emily

    October 25, 2015 at 6:10 pm

    Amen, Insanity ♥

19. 

    insanitybytes22

    October 25, 2015 at 8:13 pm

    “I must admit that I am surprised Insanity by your phrase “vehicle of your own masturbation” – this is something I here from feminists and those who reject the Biblical concept that sex is a duty in marriage and that God made a woman’s body for her husbands pleasure.”

    I’m sorry Biblical, but a whole heck of a lot of women have told me exactly that, and no, they are not feminists.

    Again you speak of the biblical concept of sex as duty and how women are made for man’s pleasure. I realize you don’t intend it that way, but you have completely left off the idea of a woman’s pleasure and spoken as if God did indeed make us as nothing more than receptacles for male sexuality. I’d just like to see us reach a bit higher, perhaps work to lead women towards enthusiastic, pleasurable sex, that actually benefits her, too.

    The church has spent centuries talking to wives about duty and how our bodies are only made for a man’s pleasure. I think that misconception has done a lot of harm in the world.

    “Yes he gave her the ability to enjoy sex as well as she gives her husband pleasure, but she has to choose to tap into that.”

    Okay, but she cannot tap into what she does not know! To punish,threaten, or lecture her about duty doesn’t sound like an effective way to go about it.

20. 

    Jeff

    October 25, 2015 at 8:37 pm

    BGR, I hope that you’ve brought up “human property” as a historical reference, maybe to show that the Bible can be used to justify all kinds of inhumane beliefs and practices. Because no person with a conscience would endorse the concept in any way.

    Your wife or children are not your property, and there is no human or godly law that would agree with such a view, biblical “justifications” notwithstanding.

    I disagree though with the concept that men have to get in touch with their feminine side, become all emotional and vulnerable with their wives in order to have a good and healthy marriage.

    I’m not sure how you interpret the task of cultivating marital love as being “all emotional and vulnerable,” and being “in touch with the feminine side,” whatever this may mean.

    But it is something we’ve seen in this discussion already: confusion about the meaning and expression of emotions.

    Emotions are not something “feminine.” I am extremely confident that you are familiar with anger, frustration, desire, humiliation — your comments, about your first marriage, for one, say as much. Those are emotions that all people experience. And unless they become aware of them and their meaning, and learn to manage them in non-destructive ways, they will be at their mercy and will allow them to ruin their and other people’s lives. I’m saying this to help dispel the myth of a non-emotional male (and its correlate, the overemotional female), and correct the repeated misinterpretations of this issue here.

    With that done, it is manly to express love to your wife. What’s more, it is a husband’s duty. Those expressions need not be flowery verbal declarations, but they should be clear enough for the wife to see and understand. Excessive emoting is not manly or something women desire, but there are ways to show your love without it, as you well know.

    Many women think they want their husbands to become more emotional, but in the end they end up respecting them less as a man for it – if it occurs too regularly.

    That’s where self-awareness and wisdom are necessary: to understand what we are feeling and why, and to know what to do about it to make our lives, and those we care about, better. Or at least liveable.

21. 

    biblicalgenderroles

    October 25, 2015 at 9:28 pm

    Insanity,

    I can’t believe you can make this statement toward me and genuine believe it:

    “you have completely left off the idea of a woman’s pleasure and spoken as if God did indeed make us as nothing more than receptacles for male sexuality”

    Are you kidding? Have you not read so many articles on my blog – and even the recent one “Should a Christian wife fake it” where I speak about the fact that God gave a woman a clitoris for one reason and one reason alone? Her sexual pleasure. How can you possibly say I have “left off a woman’s pleasure”? You liked that post and agreed with and referred to a post you wrote on it too.

    There is no contradiction between saying God wants a woman to have pleasure during sex and PART of the reason God made a woman’s body as he did was for man’s sexual pleasure. She was designed to receive sexual pleasure from a man, and to simultaneously give him sexual pleasure.

    Do you think I don’t think men should not work “towards enthusiastic, pleasurable sex, that actually benefits” their wives as well? Of course I do and anyone who gives an honest reading to my blog knows that to be the case. Is it possible for men to be selfish lovers and not try to engage in foreplay? Absolutely!

    But lets look at the causes of why women often do not enjoy sex(that have nothing to do with their husbands):

    1. They have been conditioned by their family, their church or their culture that women are not supposed to enjoy or desire sex.
    2. They simply have no willingness to explore the possibility of their own sexuality and to try and enjoy sex. No matter what anyone shows them their view of sex is set in stone. It is simply a dirty duty necessary for making kids.
    3. Some women actually do get to the point where they can enjoy sex with their husbands and they often do. But even these women who have a healthy and right view of sex realize that they need to have sex with their husbands even when they don’t feel like it or when it might not be as physically pleasurable.

    I agree she can’t tap into what she does not know. Who said anything about not educating women about their own sexuality? Of course men should work their wives in their beginning of their marriages and be patient and understanding as wife comes to know her own body. However at a certain point whether she is fully in tune with her body or now – she must have sex have sex with her husband whether she fully enjoys it or not. At that point the battle is in her own mind.

    But are you aware that many women know EXACTLY how their sexuality works but this still cling to the idea that their husbands bare 100% responsibility for putting them in the mood and if they are not in the right mood they do not have to sex? That is VERY prevalent today.

    God tells his wife about her duty to him in the old testament and the new testament – should we as husbands to our wives not do the same?

    You and I agree there needs to be grace and mercy of husband toward his wife. A man needs to be considerate of his wife and try to gently guide her. But sometimes a firmer hand(figuratively speaking) is required. You accept grace and mercy, but you reject discipline and correlation. Its not one of these things, it is all of these things.

    “What will ye? shall I come unto you with a rod, or in love, and in the spirit of meekness?” – I Corinthians 4:21 (KJV)

22. 

    insanitybytes22

    October 25, 2015 at 9:56 pm

    Biblical, I am sorry if I have offended you, but there are many men who do treat women poorly, who perceive us not as full human beings but rather as objects for contempt and ridicule, who exist solely to fulfill the sexual needs of men.

    That is the reality, the truth of women’s experience. That is even still being taught in some churches today.

    I do not reject the notion of discipline and correction and I have actually written a few pieces about what faking it means and why it is okay. But while I empathize with men deeply, the reverse does not appear to be true of either you or Tomassi, which cause me to doubt the intent behind what both of you are doing.

23. 

    biblicalgenderroles

    October 26, 2015 at 2:09 am

    Insanity,

    Let me tell you where i empathize with women and these statements could be verified if anyone read these posts of mine plus other statements I have made in other posts:

    https://biblicalgenderroles.com/2015/04/24/7-ways-to-let-your-wife-manage-your-home-2/
    https://biblicalgenderroles.com/2015/05/30/10-ways-to-know-your-wife/
    https://biblicalgenderroles.com/2015/05/30/12-ways-to-honor-your-wife/
    https://biblicalgenderroles.com/2014/07/17/how-to-handle-a-perfectionist-husband/
    https://biblicalgenderroles.com/2014/07/01/how-a-christian-wife-should-handle-a-controlling-husband/
    https://biblicalgenderroles.com/2015/08/16/does-god-allow-divorce-for-abuse/
    https://biblicalgenderroles.com/2015/08/16/does-god-allow-a-woman-to-divorce-her-husband-for-failure-to-provide/

    1. I empathize with women who have husbands who never tell them they love them.
    2. I empathize with women who have husbands who call them names and tell them they are stupid.
    3. I empathize with women who have husbands that physically abuse them and I tell women to leave such men.
    4. I empathize with women who have husbands who are lazy dead beats and refuse to work and I tell them leave such men.
    5. I empathize with women who have husbands who never take specific time to talk to their wives about their concerns, needs, hopes and dreams.
    6. I empathize with women whose parents or churches or cultures taught them that sex was supposed to be dirty to a woman and only men are the ones who should want sex.
    7. I empathize with women whose have controlling or perfectionist husbands.
    8. I empathize with women who have cowardly husbands who abdicate or responsibility to lead and do not help with discipline of the children.
    9. I empathize with women whose husbands cheated on them when they were giving him sex whenever he wanted it.

    Now here is where I do not empathize women:
    1. I do NOT empathize with women whose husbands cheated on them but they were shutting him out of the bedroom or “gatekeeping” – while what the husband did was sinful and he should not have allowed himself to put in a sexually tempting position, his wife has some culpability as well.

    2. I do NOT empathize with women whose husbands have put in a good faith effort to help them enjoy sex better but she refuses to take the help, look inward and make the changes she needs to make in her own mind so she can enjoy sex.

    3. I do NOT empathize with women who refuse to have sex with their husbands unless they are in the mood or their husband performs a list of prerequisites first.

    I do not perceive women as objects of contempt and ridicule, I perceive feminism and its ideology as worthy of contempt and ridicule.

    Anyone who has ever read my blog knows that I do not believe women “exist solely to fulfill the sexual needs of men”.

    But here is the Biblical truth – women do exist solely to be helpmeets to men unless God has called them to celibate life in his service.

    “Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.” I Corinthians 11:9

    This is why women are commanded to reverence, submit to and obey their husbands as they would God himself. A woman’s mission is prepare herself for marriage, and then when she marries fully dedicate herself to the service of her husband. God created men to go into the world and work – preach, build, teach, lead, conquer, explore, invent…ect. He created women to be helpmeets to men as they pursue their life’s work. To have their children, to care for those children and care for their home as they went out into the world knowing they could trust their wife had everything in order back home. As part of this service to her husband she is to give her body to him freely when he comes home from his endevours outside the home. But God in his graciousness gave women the ability to enjoy this part of their service to their husbands(giving their bodies in the act of sex) – but they must choose to tap into that sexuality that God has given them.

    Women, like men exist for the glory of God. However men and women bring glory to God by living out the purpose for our design. God designed a man’s mind and his body for very different purposes than what he designed a woman’s mind and body to do. A woman’s mind and body were built specifically for the purpose of fulfilling the needs of her husband during this time on earth, one of those needs are for sex, but that certainly is not his only need from her. He also needs companionship, a mother for his children and a manager for his home. He needs someone to lead, protect and provide for and she is specifically built to be dependent on her husband for these things.

    So no women don’t exist SOLEY to fufill the sexual needs of men – however they do soley exist(according God’s design in the garden) to be a helpmeet to man unless God calls them to a celibate life in his service, and part of their calling as a helpmeet IS to fufill the sexual needs of their man.

24. 

    Dragonfly

    October 26, 2015 at 2:26 am

    Liz, I absolutely love you. I hope our marriage continues on the path that it seems yours has.

    We’re like that too… sex every day if we could, sometimes twice. LOL I just freaking look at him, and get sometimes ragingly turned on haha. I’m pretty sure you’re like this with Mike, too, from reading your other comments.

    But the reason why I like this site so much is because of the Bible actually telling couples not to withhold from each other – duty sex is biblically sanctioned even commanded. It just makes too much sense biblically, everything that BGR is promoting.

    On the topic of Duty Sex: You never know how sex will turn out… even if a woman isn’t in the mood, but her husband initiates, and she welcomes him in because she is genuinely turned on by him and deeply loves and adores him, her mood for sex can change dramatically! They’ll be times when I’m not at all in the mood, and he can somehow really get me in the mood even by bantering back and forth with me – and then we’re having insane, passionate sex. I didn’t think that was possible after 8 years of marriage, but it is. Sounds like Liz experiences it too 🙂

25. 

    Dragonfly

    October 26, 2015 at 2:40 am

    Emily, I don’t think you understand soft dread.

    Soft dread happens just simply when a man is hot enough and has the opportunity to cheat. It’s not that he would, it’s that he could if the relationship got bad enough – if his wife or girlfriend drove him crazy or depressed enough with her behavior.

    My husband works with some really hot women lol… his friends often make jokes drooling over them! Am I intimidated? lol No. I actually am friends with some of them, they are gorgeous, really hot women who also can kick ass. He’s also around strippers and prostitutes, even having them touch him, flirt with him, and make passes at him. Not all the time of course, but it happens more frequently than it does to normal men because of his career choice. He’s sexy… so he gets flirted with a lot. I trust him, and I know he is faithful, but it sounds like Solomon’s first wife was a controlling jealous woman who was intimidated in even seeing a hot woman in her vicinity. That is an extremely bad sign in a woman – it just means she’s incredibly insecure and allows her insecurities to rule over her life and even marriage. He should have (no offense to you Solomon) vetted more carefully when dating her to see if she was like that before hand. And if she wasn’t, I’m so sorry Solomon… that is nuts.

26. 

    Dragonfly

    October 26, 2015 at 2:42 am

    BGR, you should turn off the comment reply mode if the disorder bothers you at all. It bothered me at my blog, even though I don’t get many comments.

    When you turn off the comment-reply option, they all fall in line in the order that they’re received and it makes it easier to read overall when one gets many comments. Just a suggestion, unless you like people being able to specifically respond to others 🙂

27. 

    biblicalgenderroles

    October 26, 2015 at 3:18 am

    Yes I don’t like that either. I changed some settings in the Discussion section of settings which seemed to have all the comments settings. It is now listing comments from most recent at top to oldest on bottom from what I can tell the nested comments are gone.

    Thanks for the suggestion – I like it better 🙂

28. 

    Dragonfly

    October 26, 2015 at 3:33 am

    What do you think BGR? Red pills interesting enough to take?

29. 

    Dragonfly

    October 26, 2015 at 4:12 am

    BGR… can you describe the Princess Mentality that your first wife had?

    And why did it lead to affairs?

30. 

    Liz

    October 26, 2015 at 1:23 pm

    Dragonfly: “On the topic of Duty Sex: You never know how sex will turn out… even if a woman isn’t in the mood, but her husband initiates, and she welcomes him in because she is genuinely turned on by him and deeply loves and adores him, her mood for sex can change dramatically! They’ll be times when I’m not at all in the mood, and he can somehow really get me in the mood even by bantering back and forth with me – and then we’re having insane, passionate sex. I didn’t think that was possible after 8 years of marriage, but it is. Sounds like Liz experiences it too”

    Yes. Especially when the children were really little. Sex can become very unspontaneous. If you wait until you feel “hot for it” that feeling really might never come around. Sex isn’t always going to be uber hot and heavy (because “tingles”) unless the frequency is pretty rare and vacations are planned.

    I don’t perceive Rollo and BGR to be much in conflict here, but I think words like “duty” and “dread” should be discarded for something a little more positive. I think people have an adverse reaction to the language there (which is understandable since language is the only way to communicate online). Advocates for “dread” object to “duty” and advocates for “duty” object to “dread” but really the explanations aren’t so very much different. Each is a value differentiation. I agree to an extent that one “can’t negotiate desire”…but isn’t that exactly what is happening with “dread”? It’s just an indirect negotiation process rather than a direct one. I believe that if people think in terms of “value” it would help things. Manly dominant/leadership behavior (even things like ‘manspreading’….when Mike was little his grandpa used to tell him he sat like a fat old man, well, he still sits that way it’s a dominant posture) exercise and taking care of oneself helps the valuation equation. It increases testosterone and that also increases confidence and so forth. With women, there’s a valuation equation too. Looking good increases one’s value and indicates she cares for her mate.

31. 

    Liz

    October 26, 2015 at 1:26 pm

    Huh, replies don’t seem to be in order now…my last reply is way up there! before the one I was responding to.

32. 

    Liz

    October 26, 2015 at 1:49 pm

    I get it now…everything is reversed (newest is at the top rather than bottom).
    🙂

33. 

    insanitybytes22

    October 26, 2015 at 2:25 pm

    Biblical, thank you for your comment and for your links. I mentioned empathy however, and you went right to judgement, as if to empathize means to approve and to not empathize means to not approve. That is more akin to mercy. Empathy is simply the ability to understand and share the feelings of another.

    Here’s the difference. I can empathize with a man who is having affairs, lost in porn, even those who are abusive and commit sexual offenses. To empathize is not the same thing as to approve of someones behavior, it is to attempt to understand their feelings and motivations, and to even realize, “but for the grace of God there go I.”

    There is a lot of focus on women here as if there is no need to empathize with us but simply to dismiss our behavior as rebellion in need of correction. The problem with that is that in order to solve problems, we have to be able to look beneath the surface and identify what is causing them.

    This sets women up as the enemy and the whole concept of one flesh than puts men at war with themselves. In a Christian context, when we perceive the opposite gender as our enemy, we are not united and fighting the real enemy together, which is what has lead to so many problems in our world, perhaps going back to the garden itself.

34. 

    biblicalgenderroles

    October 26, 2015 at 2:54 pm

    Liz,

    I took out the nested comment feature which tries to keep replies grouped by does not always put comments in date order and also changed it to show newest comments first.

    I just changed it back to showing oldest comments first and newest on the bottom I like that better(and so will some others) 🙂

    But nested comments are gone for good – everything will be in date order from oldest to newest.

35. 

    biblicalgenderroles

    October 26, 2015 at 3:32 pm

    Dragonfly,

    I don’t think I am ready to swallow the Red pill. Its not that I think everything in red pill ideology is wrong, I believe red pill has some points about feminism as well as how men should not run around like puppy dogs with their wives trying make her happy at every moment. I agree with red pill that some women are sexual extortionists(whether they consciously realize it or not).
    I very much agree with the concept that a man’s mission is his top priority and I would say that his wife and children are only a part of that great mission of being a man.

    From a Biblical perspective I believe this is the mission of man:
    Do your duty – God always comes first. His design for you as a man and his will for your life comes first. Work and whatever you do – do it with all your might! – Conquer your world, explore your world, make a difference in your world. When you come home lead, guide, teach and discipline your family. Carve out time for your wife, and carve out time for your children. Do not overextend yourself in any part of your mission, or you may fail your mission. But in doing all these things never forget to show grace and mercy to your wife and children on a regular basis.

    One the bigger parts about Red Pill that is very hard me to swallow is the dread notion. I do believe as pointed out in this post that God wants women to have a reverent fear for their husbands. But I do not think that fear should based in the fact that a husband plants subconscious ideas in his wife’s head that he might cheat. I don’t agree with married men flirting.

    But also see no problem with a man being charming and confident and I do not think that any man should be on his wife’s leash. He does not have to be ashamed of worried about talking to other women and this should not bother his wife if she knows the character of her husband.

    But I also do not believe that men should purposefully put themselves in sexually tempting positions either by waiting for that perfect mood with their wife to have sex, or allowing themselves to be constantly alone with other women and flirting and sharing intimate details of their lives with other women.

36. 

    biblicalgenderroles

    October 26, 2015 at 3:47 pm

    Well my definition of the “Princess Mentality” might be different than others but here goes.
    This was my first wife’s mentality.
    “I am the perfect wife and you just don’t appreciate that fact”. – was stated by her on more than one occasion.
    “The reason I cheated with you was because you did not show the proper appreciation for me.” – was stated on more than one occasion

    I was there to serve her in whatever she needed at any given moment.

    She did me a favor by marrying me.

    She was a stay at home mom and I was the person to supply her with all her needs – whether that was adoration, children, buying her something or helping with the kids. I was there to serve her. I was the paycheck.

    No woman could ever be as beautiful as her. I would fear for ever saying that another woman was attractive in any way.
    If I even glanced at another woman her jealously was raging.

    She did not make make mistakes, she was the most perfect and beautiful wife and mother to his children a man could ever hope for.
    I should have considered myself fortunate to simply be in her presence and bask in the glory that was her.

    On the rare occasions I stood up to her – she would have raging fits and even at times pulled out her own hair.

    On the sexual front she was a sexual extortionist. She actually liked sex much better than my current wife. However she knew I needed it even more than her and used that to her advantage. It was very common for her to say “If you do this, or you let us buy this…I will do you a favor later”. To oppose her was to shut off the sexual tap.

    That is my description of my ex wife’s “princess mentality” and how it lead to affairs.

37. 

    Emily

    October 26, 2015 at 4:22 pm

    Larry, I’m having issues posting..

    Dragonfly, well first, Rollo didn’t just talk about passively inciting dread, but actively causing it through flirting. I think we can both agree that’s wrong.

    I do understand to some extent what you are saying. I’ve noticed some couples where the woman will let herself go after having secured the man with marriage and children. That’s wrong. Is it less likely she would do that if she feared, ‘dreaded,’ her husband cheating on her? Yes. But that’s just a failing relationship where love and duty have been replaced by fear and anxiety.

    There is really no biblical argument for this, so lets argue it from a purely secular point of view. Do you think that it’s okay for a man to dread his wife cheating on him if the relationship went bad enough? If you believe the answer to that is yes, then okay, that’s fair. But all these men will of course argue against that, because really for them the ‘dread game’ is just an exercise in control and abuse.

    In my first post I did agree that the knowledge that our husband’s are attractive to other women is good. But I’m sure our husband’s can say the same thing for us.. Where this whole things becomes about ‘dread game’ for disciplining and controlling your wife’s sexuality through inciting insecurity, that’s when I have a problem.

38. 

    biblicalgenderroles

    October 26, 2015 at 4:47 pm

    Insanity,

    Ok I see what you are saying about empathy and judgement.

    In regard to women. I can empathize with a woman who does not feel like having sex with her husband because he has been ignoring her need to talk outside the context of sex. I can empathize with a woman does not feel like having sex with her husband because he never tells her he loves her and he is constantly critical of her. I can empathize with a woman who has been battling toddlers all day and the fact that sex is the last thing on her mind. I can empathize with a woman that has been taught sex is dirty and her not desiring to have sex because of that.

    Men need to have conversations with their wives. Deep conversations. We need to understand our wive’s sexual past, or the sexual conditioning she has grown up with. I believe that in the beginning of a marriage a husband needs to have great patience and understanding with his wife in her getting used to sex and figuring out what works for her and what does not.

    But when a husband has tried talking with his wife, tried counseling with his wife and she still clings to wrong beliefs about sex which in turn leads to wrong actions(like sexual denial, or grudgingly given sex) this is were rebellion must be confronted.

    Insanity – the gentle approach should always be first. I say that time and time again and a lot of people(and I think you might be one of them) continue to miss that. But when a husband has gently and lovingly tried to help his wife and she remains defiant that sex will happen only when she desires it then harder discipline measures must be taken.

    A wife must be made to learn that sex is to occur on a regular basis whether she feels like it or not, and it also must be given with a good attitude(She should fake it till she makes it). Again though this is just one of her duties as a wife she also needs to realize that caring for her home and her children must happen as well – regardless of her feelings.

    You asked about empathy, and I can empathize with women that they are not creatures of duty like men are. Women are creatures of feeling. Most men will do their duty regardless of their feelings whether it is at work or at home. Women on the other hand often struggle with their feelings getting in the way of doing their duty.

    A woman’s feelings can be a great asset to her in caring for her children or others that are in need, but her feelings can also be a great hindrance to her in doing her duty in other areas.

    I think that women try to help men empathize and men try to help women do their duty. There is a time for empathy and a time for duty.

    For instance there are times when a man should empathize with his wife’s feelings and not press her to have sex. But there are times when a man needs to help his wife do her duty and have sex in spite of her feelings to the contrary.

    I know this first hand dealing with a wife who deals with chronic pain, as well as depression and anxiety. When you add to that my wife’s feminist upbringing that her body is her own and no one else’s and sex should only happen when both people are in the mood I have a real challenge on my hands as many men who write me do.

    If I were to overly empathize with my wife’s various ailments and her wrong upbringing and life experience that is so ingrained her brain I would only have sex 5 or 6 times a year when she was in the mood and truly desired it. But then I would be disobeying God’s command that I am to seek sex with my wife whenever I need it so as to help avoid sexual temptation. I truly believe God wants sex to be a regular occurrence for us whether I don’t always like the lack of emotion or desire from her during sex or not.

39. 

    biblicalgenderroles

    October 26, 2015 at 5:02 pm

    Emily,

    I fixed the issue of the newest comments on top – they are not on the bottom. But you need to click the “Newer comments” on the bottom to see them on next page. But the comments are now in straight chronological order as opposed to them being nested as the were before.

40. 

    Dragonfly

    October 26, 2015 at 5:27 pm

    New post about wives in 1888 creating either miserable marriages or happy marriages BGR if you’re interested!
    http://girlwithadragonflytattoo.com/2015/10/26/1888-letters-show-women-who-create-happy-marriages-pick-well-are-mature/

41. 

    insanitybytes22

    October 26, 2015 at 5:50 pm

    Thank you for your kind words and your patient response. I agree with what you’ve just said and I agree with the biblical ideas behind them. What is appalling however is to bear witness to how those same words are sometimes misappropriated and received somewhat subjectively by those who do not have good intentions.

    I do believe what you say about women being creatures of feeling and men creatures of duty. Well put.

    You are correct, sometimes men have to lead there and women’s feelings need to align with a husband’s will or desires. That is something women can learn to do and it makes our lives much more pleasurable.

42. 

    Dragonfly

    October 26, 2015 at 5:51 pm

    That is so fascinating about the Princess Mentality… to me it sounds like entitlement issues and too high self-esteem.

    I’m so sad that you had to experience that BGR, I’m amazed you didn’t turn bitter or super resentful, and I know it’s because of your faith like you’ve said before. Love your blog, so much.

    I do think our society creates it through all the disney princess movies, the glorification of girls being spoiled, bratty, etc. It all goes into affecting what kind of women we’re creating.

    Since you do have a daughter, how on earth have you worked to help her *not* acquire this Princess mentality?

43. 

    biblicalgenderroles

    October 26, 2015 at 7:23 pm

    Insanity – I am glad we now more clearly understand each others position. 🙂

44. 

    biblicalgenderroles

    October 26, 2015 at 8:41 pm

    Dragonfly,

    You know what the interesting thing is about my first wife with the Princess Mentality – she did not come from a rich home. But rather a very poor home in a bad neighborhood. She also had a terrible relationship with her mother who ran her house while her father stood by silently and did as he was told. So it was not as if she was spoiled either by money or by her parents. I think what happened is she felt she deserved to be treated like a princess even though her parents never did that. She saw herself as better than everyone around her, her parents, her siblings and then me when we were married. She was determined when she got married that her husband would treat her like the princess she thought she was.

    I say all that because before I met my first wife I had heard of the “princess type” girls and was determined I was not going to marry one of those kinds of girls. I attended a private Christian school where my parents barely managed to scrape together my tuition and when my dad was out of work I used my job at a restaurant to pay my school tuition. But I knew girls from my school that came from wealthy homes and their parents spoiled them rotten and made them think they were better than everyone else and I never tried to even date those girls because I knew I did not want that.

    Then I met my first wife in church and she was a beautiful young woman, and I found out she was from a poorer neighborhood I knew and she presented herself as the humble poor girl – boy did she pull the wool over my eyes! After we were married the real “her” came out and it was too late.

    I think for my daughter it is many factors that keep her humble. She has four brothers(two younger, and two older) to help with that task – LOL. But she has also seen how her mother treated me, and how much her mother lies to herself about who she is and she is determined to no emulate those qualities about her mom.

    I think it also comes from the fact she and I have always had a close relationship and she respects what I have taught her about why God made man, and why God made woman. She truly believes in her heart that her future joy will come from serving her husband and her children. My daughter does very much looking forward to being a wife and mom one day.

    I just took her out to lunch(just me and her) on Saturday and we had a great talk about things going on her middle school. They had all the kids in her 7th grade class write out everything about themselves what they like, what they disliked and what they wanted to be when they grew up.

    My daughter was the only girl in the class that put “Stay at home mom”. She told me many girls made fun of her for that and said she was going to waste her life. But my daughter knowing what Dad always taught her was brave and told those other girls – “but that is what I believe God wants me to do.”

    She said something very interesting to me – she said “Dad why do people actually get offended that I want to be a stay at home mom? I don’t get offended that they want to have careers – I don’t think it is right in God’s eyes, but I am not offended at them because they wrote that. They seemed to be genuinely offended and disgusted that I wrote stay at home mom.”

    I told her “Honey – the answer is that you are planning to do the right thing and that is a conviction to them. It burns them to their core. It will be the same thing when you tell them you want to wait for sex for marriage – it will burn them, because it convicts them.”

45. 

    Rollo Tomassi

    October 26, 2015 at 9:29 pm

    Life is too short too have sex with a woman who treats it as an obligation and not the joy it should be.

    I pity the men who lack the experience of sex with a variety of women and never learn what the difference is and then base their judgement of their experience on the sexual mindset of the only woman (or precious few women) they do bang. This sets men up for uninspired grudge-lays, starfish sex or borderline marital-rape rather than ever understanding what it’s like to have a woman express a genuine physical desire to bang him. This is where Christian men fail; their only benchmark for sexual experience is spoon fed to them by an increasingly feminine-primary Christian Culture.

    Premarital sex might be a sin to the religious minded, but so is adultery, so are ‘lustful thoughts’ about women, so is jerking off to porn, so is a woman’s refusal to bang her husband, and the list of post-marital sins goes on and on. The occasional sin of premarital sex in an unmarried, plate spinning, non-exclusive state seems far more pragmatic than subjecting oneself to the myriad potential sins associated with modern marriage.

    And if you’re going to sin, at least the sex will be more inspired, less coerced and far more passionate than what amounts to Christian married sex.

46. 

    Liz

    October 26, 2015 at 10:13 pm

    I’m not sure why regular sex, or sex when one is (initially) not in the mood has to equal a joyless “starfish” experience.
    Rollo, do you reject the idea that doing = thinking?
    Don’t you say things like, “fake it ’til you make it” and so forth? Why would libido be so very much different?

47. 

    Liz

    October 26, 2015 at 10:15 pm

    Just as a disclaimer we’re speaking of people who got married which would imply they aren’t repulsed by each other, and had it “going on” together, at least at some point.

48. 

    Dragonfly

    October 26, 2015 at 11:02 pm

    BGR, you sound like a great father 🙂 So happy for you in that regard. I loved reading about your relationship with your daughter… so sweet! She’ll never forget that, too, you’ll always have a lasting impact on her and her decisions in life. I could talk to my dad about anything (and my mom too, but it was just a different kind of relationship). Believe me, I still appreciate everything he gave me, told me, and showed me about life. He’s actually had something happen last Spring… like a small stroke or something (he’s close to 70), so it’s been horrible not having him there mentally. Really painful. That relationship is just so sweet & meaningful, even years after a daughter leaves! Last Thanksgiving, I was 8 months pregnant and my husband had to work that evening, so we went to my parents’ house so that I could stay the night there and not have to worry about driving home after the party. My dad and I stayed up the **entire** night… just at the table together talking about everything. It was so sweet and wow, am I grateful to have had at least that one last time with him like that – we never had the chance to talk that long obviously… me being married.

    But it’s great you’ll get to see your daughter’s life play out, and her being a wife and mother! She sounds so mature for her age to know already what she wants to do, and keep to it even in the face of her peers not thinking it’s “cool.”

    That is really interesting about your first wife being poor… I wouldn’t have thought that. And it’s cute you mention brothers keeping you humble lol. I only have ONE brother and yes, it really did keep me more humble – all that fighting etc. In high school, I actually finally became friends with him, and I saw him being bullied a little, and learned how to develop compassion for him and to help him through it.

49. 

    insanitybytes22

    October 27, 2015 at 2:12 am

    “And if you’re going to sin, at least the sex will be more inspired, less coerced and far more passionate than what amounts to Christian married sex.”

    I think there may be some real misconceptions and stereotypes about what “Christian married sex” looks like. Also,some misconceptions about what being a Christian means, as if it means we are all chaste, uninformed, and engage in missionary sex with our eyes closed, thinking of the Queen.

    Right or wrong, Christians are actually some of the largest consumers of porn, we’re notorious for our assorted sex scandals, and many of us come from dark places before we became Christians. We don’t follow Christ because of who we are, we follow because of who He is.

50. 

    biblicalgenderroles

    October 27, 2015 at 4:07 am

    Dragonfly,

    I tell my kids all the time – for as much as they fight now – they will all probably be good friends when they are adults.

    Another theory I have – do you think women who had close relationships with their father, where they could actually freely talk to their dad and he made them feel secure and loved make better wives? I think so. Its not a guarantee, but I think there is a direct correlation if the Dad teaches his daughter three things.

    1. How men tick – how their minds work.
    2. How a woman is to treat her husband.
    3. How her husband should treat her(Biblically)

    If she takes these things to heart I see a great wife for some lucky man some day. I hope your husband thanked your Dad for how he loved you and raised you.

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