Why MGTOW is an Unbiblical Philosophy

MGTOW is just one of many men’s rights groups comprising what is known as the Manosphere. MGTOW stands for “Men Going Their Own Way”. The Manosphere is comprised of several groups that share one thing in common. They all believe the rights of men in America and other western countries have been infringed upon for at least several decades and others for more than a century. Also, the vast majority of Manosphere groups believe that feminism is a problematic ideology that is eating away at the core of society and destroying Western civilization.

Where these groups begin to separate from one another is on two main issues.

The first issue which separates manosphere groups is how far back was feminism wrong? Was it from its very origins in the mid-19th century when women’s groups fought for more rights for in divorce and property rights for women? Was it when women were granted the right to vote in 1920? Or was it just from the advent of second wave feminism in the 1960s where feminism dropped the equivalent of a societal nuclear bomb on traditional gender roles and sexual morality and it became a misandrist movement that openly declared war on men?

The second issue which separates manosphere groups is how men should react to the damage feminism has caused to men’s rights, sexual norms, traditional gender roles, marriage and the family. And opinions on what the solutions should be are very much impacted by the group’s view on the origins of the problem.

For instance, if a group does not view equal rights for women, including the ability of women to vote and to be economically independent of men as a foundational part of the problem they will have very different solutions to the assault on men’s rights than other groups. Another way of putting this is that some manosphere groups are only fighting for equal rights for men with women, not less rights for women.

MRAs – Men’s Rights Activists

Many MRA groups in the manosphere believe they just need to just get the societal pendulum to the center. These groups are actually big supporters of first and even second wave feminism and all the new rights these movements granted women. They believe society was unjustly biased to support male privilege and patriarchy over women before feminism came along to correct this injustice. In their view, feminism just went too far and they want to re-balance the rights between men and women and have the courts deal equally with both men and women.

Jesse Powell’s Secular Patriarchy or Traditional Family Activism

Other manosphere groups believe that feminism was flawed from its very inception and that American and Western society made a grave error in granting women economic, social and political independence from men. In their view, tearing down the system of patriarchy which was the norm throughout human history was a colossal mistake.

Even among the manosphere groups that believe feminism was flawed since its very inception in the mid-19th century, there is much diversity of opinion. Some of these groups come from a secular perspective and others come from a religious perspective.

For instance, there are atheists like Jesse Powell who are believe in and teach “secular patriarchy” and consider themselves “TFAs” or Traditional Family Activists. Jesse Powell argues that evolution shows that men are meant to lead, provide for and protect women and that the feminist revolution of the mid-19th century went against this and was doomed to failure because of the unique evolutionary design of men and women.

Mr. Powell not only decries the damage caused by feminism to Western world, but he also offers what he believes is a solution to the problem:

What society needs instead is for men to assert themselves as men and return to their roles as the guardians, protectors, and foundation of support for women so that women will be once again freed from the concerns and burdens of the man and instead be enabled to focus on giving to others of their femininity and their unique and particular strengths as women. The feminine contribution to the family and to society must be resurrected, must be revitalized, must be held up as a fundamental priority and concern of men once again.

Under coverture women’s role as women was upheld in both culture and law. The beginning of the feminist revolution can be dated back to the initial reforms that worked to undo the principles of coverture; namely the Custody of Infants Act of 1839 and the Married Women’s Property Act of 1870. TFAs wish to repeal the feminist revolution in its entirety and return to a period of stable and healthy relations between the sexes such as existed in the era of coverture.”

So, in his view the answer to fighting the damage feminism has caused to the family unit and Western civilization is to go back to the very beginnings of feminism in the mid-19th century and remove it at is very roots. That means removing women’s right to vote, property rights and child custody rights in divorce. This would force women’s complete dependence on men as had it been for this history of mankind throughout the world.

Rollo Tomassi’s “The Red Pill” or TRP

Other secularists like Rollo Tomassi at RationalMale.com take a different approach. He does not oppose women’s right to vote, property rights for women or even their right to abortion, but he does think that the ideology of feminism is at odds with human evolution and he does not buy into the false blank slate theory that all of our behavior comes from our environment. He rejects the crazy idea that you can educate away basic male and female behavioral traits.

Rollo Tomassi has made a career of his own take on “The Red Pill” which uses the 1999 movie “Matrix” to illustrate how men need to be awakened to what is actually happening around them. In the Matrix movie the mentor character Morpheus offers Neo, the main Protagonist a choice between a red pill and a blue pill. If he takes the red pill, he will be awakened to the false reality he has been living in and shown what the world actually looks like. If he takes the blue pill, he can go back to the fantasy world he has been living in his whole life. But if he does stay in that world, he will continue to be what he has been since his birth, a slave to the Matrix system. He can only be free by taking the red pill and waking up to the harsh real world around him. It will be a harder world, and he will have to fight against the system he used to serve as a slave, but he would be free.

I actually love the Matrix Trilogy and own them all on Blu Ray. I watch them a couple times a year with my sons. I think there are many life lessons that can be learned from them and I actually think the red pill/blue pill is an excellent analogy to how we are brought up in our culture to view our world. I would even use the red pill/blue pill analogy to teach people that there is a spiritual world that is beyond this physical world that we can see and touch.

But unlike Jesse Powell, Rollo Tomassi does not see the answer to the problem of “feminine primacy” in Western culture as a need to completely rollback all gains of feminism since the mid-19th century. Mr. Tomassi is not really looking at long term political solutions to the problem of feminism, but rather he is more interested in helping men to “game” the current feminine dominated culture to fulfill their “masculine imperative”. The masculine imperative in his view is for a man to have sex with as many women as possible. In essence, men are programmed to be polygamous, or most specifically polygynous. Women on the other hand are hypergamous by nature, meaning they seek the best man with which to mate based on his genetics and his ability to provide for and protect them. This is why women are most naturally attracted to muscular, good looking men who have a lot of money.

One of the most important concepts Mr. Tomassi teaches men in their efforts to “game women” is the “Cardinal Rule of Relationships: In any relationship, the person with the most power is the one who needs the other the least”. By this he teaches men that the more they act like they need a woman, especially for sex, the more power she takes in the relationship and ultimately the less attractive he becomes to her.

And no introduction to the Red Pill ideology would be complete without the mention of alpha men, beta men and the concept of “Frame”. In his book “The Rational Male — Positive Masculinity” Tomassi writes:

“The sexual alphaness of a male towards a female is exhibited by her wanting to please him, and the sexual betaness of a male is exhibited by him needing to please her.

And on the subject of “Frame” Tomassi wrote the following in his article on RationalMale.com entitled “Hypergamy Knows Best”:

“One of the most basic Red Pill principles I’ve stressed since I began writing is the importance of Frame. The dynamic of Frame stretches into many aspects of a man’s life, but in a strictly intergender sense this applies to men establishing a positive dominance in their relationships with women. In a dating context of non-exclusivity (plate spinning) this means, as a man, you have a solid reality into which that woman wants to be included in. Holding Frame is not about force, or coercion, it’s about attraction and desire and a genuine want on the part of a woman to be considered for inclusion into that man’s reality.

Being allowed into a man’s dominant, confident Frame should be a compliment to that woman’s self-perception. It should be a prize she seeks.”

So here is a summary of what Tomassi is saying in these two statements. Men have a choice. They can be the beta male our post-feminist culture wants them to be. That means as a man you center your life on pleasing the women around you. If you are a beta male, your entire strategy in dating and eventually marriage is to make your wife happy each and every day. You will sacrifice your career, your sexual needs and anything else that is required in order to make her happy.

Alpha males are the polar opposite. The best summary of an Alpha male is man who absolutely and unequivocally does not care about what others think of him. He literally does what he wants to whether it is popular or not.

As an example, a beta male would ask his wife or girlfriend permission to go out with his friends on a given evening. The alpha male would tell his wife he was going out and not give her the option of a veto. Tomassi and other Red Pill philosophers have pointed to many studies which show women going after the “bad boy”, i.e. the guy who could care less about what anyone thinks of what he does. For instance, it is extremely common for a woman to be married to Mr. Nice Guy and then have an affair with Mr. Bad Boy who lives next store. The Mr. Nice Guy could work the 9 to 5 job and provide well for his wife and children. The Mr. Nice Guy could come home after work and help with the kids and even cook dinner. Mr. Nice Guy even takes his wife on regular weekly dates and even takes her on romantic trips a couple times a year. But instead his wife finds herself attracted to Mr. Bad Guy next store who is covered in tattoos, rides a Harley, would never want kids and has an endless string of bimbos coming in and out of his house.

This is because two of the driving forces that evoke what Tomassi calls “genuine” verses “negotiated” sexual desire in women are men that give off the allure of danger or excitement. Mr. Nice Guy is both safe and unexciting therefore his wife will most likely have no genuine desire to have sex with him and the most he can ever hope for is “transactional” or “negotiated” sex where he does things for her and then she gives him sex as a reward.

Another driver of genuine sexual desire in women, according to Tomassi, is fear or dread. Its not fear in the sense that she is afraid the man will hurt her if she does not have sex with him. It is not even fear that he might take away things like money or other things he supplies her with. This type of fear or dread as he refers to it is when a woman sees other women are interested in her man. It is really a jealous type of fear where she worries if she does not sexually please him, he will find what he wants elsewhere with these other women that want him.

And these are just some of the many techniques that Mr. Tomassi teaches men in order to stoke “genuine desire” for sex from women toward them. While he does talk about other masculine issues besides sex, his teachings could basically boil down to “How men can get laid both before and after marriage in a post-feminist world.” With teachings like these, it is not surprising that Mr. Tomassi has one of the largest followings in the Manosphere.

One of my many projects I have had in the works is to do an in-depth comparison of the doctrines of Biblical gender roles verses Red Pill ideology. I will say up front as a preview that Red Pill ideology is not all wrong from a Christian perspective. In fact, many observations of Red Pill ideology are backed up by the Bible.

But one of the big differences between Red Pill ideology and Biblical gender roles is that Red Pill just tells you what the differences are between men and women, it does not do a lot of explaining as to why those differences are there.

The only “why” you get from Red Pill for the differences between men and women is based on the evolutionary need to reproduce for the continuation of the species. Mr. Tomassi’s Red Pill ideology teaches that men have polygamous natures which causes them seek to sow their seed with as many women as possible. On the other hand, Tomassi teaches that women have hypergamous natures which causes them to be more selective and thus they seek out the most genetically superior males who can provide for and protect them and their children thus giving their offspring the best chance for survival.

The Bible actually shows that God made men with polygamous natures and it regulates polygamy and even blesses polygamy. So, in this area of man’s sexual nature the Bible would be in complete agreement with Red Pill ideology. The Bible would also agree with the fact that women have hypergamous natures but under Biblical laws women were not allowed to fully act on those hypergamous natures. While it is true that women often married for economic or political means, the fact is historically women had little to no choice in whom they married. Their fathers or other male relatives like uncles or brothers would decide who women married. Only widowed or divorced women had a choice in whom they married.

Also, before the sexual revolution which coincided with the second wave feminism of the 1960s, sex outside of marriage was the rarity and not the norm as it is today. Prior to the sexual revolution, a woman’s virginity was her most prized possession held and protected for marriage. So, the whole Red Pill ideology of cracking “the code of how to get laid” was meaningless for having sex with the vast majority of women. Prior to the advent of dating in the early 20th century and then the sexual revolution of the 1960s, the way a man got laid was to get married. And the way a man got married was to get a job, show he could provide and then earn the permission of the father, uncle or brother of the girl he wanted to marry. In many older cultures a man did not just earn the father’s permission with his character or by showing he could provide, but he also earned that permission by paying for the woman.

In other words, since the creation of mankind right up until the advent of mid-19th century feminist movements, women were considered the property of men. There were two primary ways men acquired women. They would take women as part of the spoils of war from the tribes or nations they conquered or among their own tribe or nation they would purchase women from their fathers or other male relatives.

So, when we look at the history of male/female relationship dynamics, a lot of what Red Pill ideology teaches only applies if a man fully accepts and just wants to “game” our post-feminist and post-sexual revolution culture to fulfill his own personnel desires for pleasure.

However, if you are trying to follow the Biblical model of gender roles some parts of Red Pill ideology will work within a Biblical framework but other parts of it will have to be discarded.

Now that we have talked about MRAs, Secular Patriarchists and Red Pill teachings from the manosphere we will now dive into MGTOWs.

What MGTOWs Believe

Here is the definition of MGTOW from mgtow.com’s “About” page:

M.G.T.O.W – Men Going Their Own Way is a statement of self-ownership, where the modern man preserves and protects his own sovereignty above all else. It is the manifestation of one word: “No”. Ejecting silly preconceptions and cultural definitions of what a “man” is. Looking to no one else for social cues. Refusing to bow, serve and kneel for the opportunity to be treated like a disposable utility. And, living according to his own best interests in a world which would rather he didn’t.”

https://www.mgtow.com/about/

On mgtow.com’s “Manosphere” page they explain what happiness looks like to a man:

Happiness is a man who protects and cares for his family, goes forth and conquers, gives of himself for a greater cause, and ensures his legacy – because that’s what he was made to do. He doesn’t fear resistance, turbulence, or commitment, because his masculine frame turns resistance into rise, finds sustenance in turbulent waters, and relies on the steadfast roots of commitment to provide stability for himself and safety for those he vowed to protect.

But today’s men are encouraged to meet resistance head on while being shamed for expecting lift. They’re told to “man up” and tough it out through turbulent waters while being called misogynists for expecting sustenance. They’re shamed into putting down roots in infertile hypergamous soil that offers no support, then are financially ruined and separated from their children when they cannot weather the storm…

The women they encounter demand attention, loyalty, resources and undue privilege, while offering very little in return. The natural hypergamous nature that once served them well in their quest to secure the best possible mate is now a sustained lifestyle bringing an endless pursuit of bigger and better. The average young woman today is less concerned about the number of quality men who would commit to her than she is about the number of men who retweet a photo of her breasts.

Young men today attend churches with pastors who demand they “man up” and support the church and its female parishioners, but that same church does nothing to cultivate an environment that encourages feminine strength. Sunday after Sunday they listen as the same Bible used to preemptively absolve women of all past, current and future transgressions is used to condemn men…

Men haven’t lost their need to find happiness by providing, protecting, sacrificing and conquering; we’ve simply discovered that providing for the modern feminist, working like a dog to protect a family that can be taken away at a moment’s notice, or risking our lives to conquer resources for some ungrateful women who claims she can do it on her own is an empty way to live. We haven’t changed the mission; we’ve changed the method. We now provide for ourselves and our immediate families, protect our interests, make selective sacrifices when the situation warrants, and conquer mountains of poon.

https://www.mgtow.com/manosphere/

On the subject of sex mgtow.com gives this answer in their “Frequently Asked Questions” (https://www.mgtow.com/faq/) section:

“Do MGTOW have sex? Or are you all virgins who don’t get any.

You know who’s not getting any?

Boyfriends and husbands.

Sex is a worthless commodity that grows on trees. Any man who has enjoyed his fair share would know that. It’s available to any man, anywhere, for less effort, money and time than anyone would have you believe. If it’s that important to a man, he can order it like pizza. Right now. Even if the modern man has only 3 lovers in his entire life, he is enjoying more trim than his own grandfather – who was socially expected to marry her first. The value of western vagina has plummeted to $0.

A significant number of MGTOW are fathers. Guess how that happened.”

And finally on the subject of marriage mgtow.com gives this answer in their “Frequently Asked Questions” section:

Can you be married and a MGHOW?

There has been some deliberation on this, but the short answer is “no”.

While it’s certainly possible that a man may have married 20 years ago, and recently became self-aware of the very precarious legal position he finds himself in today . . . this would be the only real way he could consider adopting a MGTOW lifestyle if he were contemplating divorce.

Cohabitation and the signing of a marriage contract eliminates any possibility that he has a true 100% agency over the outcome of his marriage and future. With 72%+ of divorces solely initiated by women (the number is much higher because she can still passively initiate while making it look like his idea) his kids, house, cars, freedom and ultimate destiny no longer belong to him exclusively. No matter how much he wants his marriage to work, he can’t legally control the outcome and can be totally devastated by the divorce. Divorce is a huge, billion-dollar industry deliberately designed to transfer his wealth and freedom to her, leaving him with little or no recourse – even if he were totally faithful and she had 50 affairs since the wedding.

Save a male and stop a wedding™ is an unregistered trademark of MGTOW.com

Now that we have shown what MGTOWs believe straight from the horse’s mouth we will take a look at some things that MGTOWs teach that are in fact true.

What is Right About MGTOW?

From a Christian and Biblical perspective most of the groups in the Manosphere have some elements of truth in their philosophies. MRAs are correct in stating that courts and our legal system are biased in helping women and sticking it to men especially as it relates to divorce and child custody issues. Red Pill teachers like Rollo Tomassi are right that sex is a major driving force in any man’s life if he is being honest with himself. Tomassi is also right about men being polygamous by nature and women being hypergamous by nature. And MGTOWs are right about a few things as well.

MGTOWs Are Right About Happiness Drivers for Men

Mgtow.com stated “Happiness is a man who protects and cares for his family, goes forth and conquers, gives of himself for a greater cause, and ensures his legacy – because that’s what he was made to do.” That is absolutely a true and Biblical statement. Men are absolutely driven to create a legacy for themselves both in the children that will carry on their name and in the mark they leave on the world outside their home whether it is in their conquest of the worlds of business, politics, the arts, philosophy, science, medicine, sports or a host of other areas.

A simpler way to say this is that men have a built-in desire to be the hero both in their individual homes and to a larger audience outside their homes.

In Ecclesiastes 7:1 the Bible says A good name is better than precious ointment; and the day of death than the day of one’s birth”. We read in Proverbs 13:22 that A good man leaveth an inheritance to his children’s children: and the wealth of the sinner is laid up for the just”.

In Proverbs 3:13 the Bible saysHappy is the man that findeth wisdom, and the man that getteth understanding”. And in Psalm 127:3-5 the Scriptures state:

“3 Lo, children are an heritage of the Lord: and the fruit of the womb is his reward. 4 As arrows are in the hand of a mighty man; so are children of the youth. 5 Happy is the man that hath his quiver full of them: they shall not be ashamed, but they shall speak with the enemies in the gate.”

So, leaving behind a good and honorable name, an inheritance for one’s children and their grandchildren, learning and finding wisdom and understanding and having children were all meant by God to be sources of happiness for men.

MGTOW is absolutely right that one of the driving forces in a man’s life and one that is meant to bring him happiness is his legacy both in how he provided for and protected his family and how he left his mark on the world. As Bible believing Christians, we believe this is part of God’s design in man.

MGTOW is Absolutely Right About the Riskiness of Marriage for Men

Before the rise of feminism, a man could securely enter into marriage with a woman knowing she would be faithful to him for life. He could confidently set out to build his legacy with his wife and children at his side.

MGTOW is absolutely right that the modern feminist mindset has decimated the institution of marriage for men. They are right that around 70 percent of divorces are filed by women. They also right that the courts are biased toward women and that men can literally loose half or more of everything they have and be left with seeing their children much less than the mother does.

MGTOW is also right from a secularist perspective that in our post-feminist world a man does not need to marry to have sex. A man can get all the sex he wants whether through paying for it or using Red Pill gaming and pickup artist techniques. And it is absolutely true that many women freely give out sex to lure men into marriage and then once marriage comes, they stop having sex or only use it as a reward technique to keep their husbands in subservience to them.

MGTOW is Absolutely Right That Men Ought Not to Surrender Their Autonomy to Women

MGTOW is also right that for many men who do stay married, the only way they keep their wives from divorcing them is to surrender their autonomy to their wives. In other words, they must become full on beta husbands in order to avoid divorce.

The Bible tells us it is a shame when women or children rule over men:

“As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them. O my people, they which lead thee cause thee to err, and destroy the way of thy paths.” – Isaiah 3:12

In the New Testament we read a direct command from God that women are not to take authority over men:

“But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.” – 1 Timothy 2:12

Now that we have discussed what is right about MGTOW we must now warn Christian men as to what is wrong about MGTOW.

What is Wrong About MGTOW?

From a Christian perspective there are several core teachings of MGTOW that directly contradict the teachings of the Word of God.

MGTOW Misses Sex as a Primary Driver for Men

While MGTOW and Red Pill share much in common in their ideology one of the large differences between them is on the issue of sex. MGTOW sees a man’s legacy as his primary driver of happiness in life where Red Pill sees a man’s sexual fulfillment as his primary driver in life. The truth is that that BOTH the building of a legacy through providing for and protecting one’s family and a man’s life’s work as well as his sexual fulfillment were meant by God to be primary driving factors of a man’s happiness in life.

The Scriptures tell us the following in Proverbs 5:15-18:

“15 Drink waters out of thine own cistern, and running waters out of thine own well.

16 Let thy fountains be dispersed abroad, and rivers of waters in the streets. 17 Let them be only thine own, and not strangers’ with thee.

18 Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth. 19 Let her be as the loving hind and pleasant roe; let her breasts satisfy thee at all times; and be thou ravished always with her love.”

Contrary to the teachings of MGTOW and Red Pill, God did not intend for men to find happiness in only their legacy or in meaningless sex with strange women. He did not mean for any man to share a woman with other men. He meant for a woman to belong to one man for her entire life and that she would never be sexually touched by another man as long as her husband lived. In other words, God meant for men to find sexual fulfillment in marriage with their wife, not outside of marriage with strange women.

God made man’s sexual drive so strong that he compares it to water and calls it a need in a man’s life. And the well to meet that need was meant to be his wife. Many MGTOWs deny sex is even a real need for a man and they advocate “Going Monk”. But other MGTOWs and the Red Pill folks while acknowledging sex as a true need in men teach men that they can fulfill this need with whorish women that give their bodies to many men.

MGTOW and Red Pill Miss the Most Important Driver for Men

Why did God plant both a strong desire for men to play the hero and build legacies both inside and outside their homes? Why did God plant such a strong sexual desire in men for the beauty and sexual pleasure of women? And really why did God create women with the power to give men such pleasure both visually and physically?

This is where much of the Manosphere won’t be able to give you an answer. But the Bible has a clear answer for this and it is found in the Apostle Paul’s divine commentary on the Genesis account in his first epistle to the Corinthian church:

“7 For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. 8 For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man. 9 Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.” – I Corinthians 11:7-9

Man was created by God to bring him glory by imaging him. That is his primary directive and his purpose in life.

By “image” we mean “to display”. Man was designed by God to display his nature and his attributes. God is strong, so he made man strong. God is aggressive, jealous and competitive. So, he made man aggressive, jealous and competitive. God is a worker, a builder and a conqueror. So, he made man to be a worker, a builder and a conqueror. God wants to lead, provide for and protect his people. So, he created man to desire to be a leader, provider and protector for his wife and children. God wants to leave his mark on this world and so to he designed man to want to leave his mark on it as well.

Lastly contrary to what many Christians believe about God, the Bible tells us God is a lover of pleasure and beauty. In Revelation 4:11 we read that all of creation was created for God’s pleasure:

“Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.”

Psalm 45:10-11 has been widely recognized by many Christian scholars as prophecy of Christ and his Church:

“10 Hearken, O daughter, and consider, and incline thine ear; forget also thine own people, and thy father’s house; 11 So shall the king greatly desire thy beauty: for he is thy Lord; and worship thou him.”

These passages I have just mentioned prove that God does seek out and enjoy pleasure and beauty and this is why men are hardwired by God to do just the same in regard to the beauty and pleasure that women can offer them.

So, if man was created by God to display or literally live out his attributes than why did God create woman? The passage I gave above from I Corinthians 11:9 gives us the answer to this question. God created woman for man. Period.

That means every part of a woman’s being, every part of her psychological and physiological makeup was created for man’s benefit and more specifically to help him live out the attributes of God. God created man strong, so man needed someone weaker to protect. That is why God made woman “the weaker vessel” as I Peter 3:7 tells us. Man needed someone to bear his legacies in the form of his children, care for them and care for the domestic needs of his home. That is why the Apostle Paul gives women this command in 1 Timothy 5:14:

“I will therefore that the younger women marry, bear children, guide the house, give none occasion to the adversary to speak reproachfully.”

As Christian men we must accept that our drive to have a legacy and to have sex for that matter were given to us cause us to image God with our lives.

MGTOW Denies Man’s Need for Female Companionship

MGTOWs encourage men to divorce themselves from the concept of female companionship. Sure, they will say if you need to have sex, go game a woman or find a prostitute. But we are not talking about sex here. We are talking about companionship. God said in Genesis 2:18:

“And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him.”

In Malachi 2:14 the Scriptures state:

“Yet ye say, Wherefore? Because the Lord hath been witness between thee and the wife of thy youth, against whom thou hast dealt treacherously: yet is she thy companion, and the wife of thy covenant.”

So, as we can see from the Bible, God did not just create woman for man’s for sexual pleasure, to be the mother of his children and the caretaker of his home. He also created her to be his companion throughout his life. He said it is not good for man to be alone. And he did not create another man to solve that problem. He created a woman.

God created woman for man to be his greatest cheerleader. He created her to cheer him in his victories and comfort him in his defeats. That is why the Scriptures tell us in Proverbs 12:4 that “A virtuous woman is a crown to her husband: but she that maketh ashamed is as rottenness in his bones”. This is also why I Corinthians 11:7 states that woman is “the glory of man”.

MGTOW Promotes a Spirit of Fear in Men

As I said previously, I do not deny the we in western civilization are living in a feminine centric world. While women point to men still occupying the majority of top CEO positions, they neglect to point out that that the majority of middle management positions in companies are now held by women (except in technology companies). They also neglect the fact that women dominate colleges and universities. In most churches, even those led my men, women dominate and influence the teachings and direction of the church.

I do not deny that our courts are highly slanted toward women especially in divorce and child custody and marital property division decisions. The state literally incentives women to divorce their husbands.

Yes, this makes marriage a far riskier proposition for men than it has ever been in the history of mankind. And it is for these reasons that a core teaching and requirement to consider one’s self an MGTOW is to swear off marriage completely. This sets MGTOW apart from the ideologies of Red Pill and Secular Patriarchy and most importantly the Biblical principles regarding gender roles and marriage.

But let’s put the marriage risk into perspective. Statistics in recent years show marriages failing at a little less than 50 percent now. But let’s just round it up to 50 percent. Then we know that of that 50 percent of marriages ending, 70 percent of those marriages were ended by the woman. That means if you are a man you have a 35 percent chance that if you marry a woman, she will divorce you.

Now some might argue that the chance of divorce would go up higher if you did not become the beta man that many wives want their husbands to be. But we can offset that risk increase by men being choosier with the women they marry.

The are three ways this can be offset the risk that a man’s future wife will demand that he become a beta husband in order to save the marriage from the threat of divorce.

  1. Search out and marry a Red Pill American or western woman.
  2. Search out and marry a woman raised in another country that still has traditional gender roles and has not been poisoned by feminism.
  3. Search out an American woman who was raised in a conservative Christian home and that fully embraced male headship and Biblical gender roles as well as strict views on divorce.

Now as a Christian I would say we should only marry a Christian so even the first two women would have to be Christians. But for secular folks on the manosphere, the first two would still help to highly mitigate the chances of the divorce.

So, this is why if a man is careful in how he chooses his wife I believe the 35 percent chance of divorce is a dependable number. It may be far less if you find the right woman.

I want to encourage every man who as bought into the MGTOW spirit of fear to meditate on this passage of Scripture day and night and ask God remove the fear of marriage from your heart:

“For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.” – 2 Timothy 1:7

7 Reasons that Christian Men Should Embrace Marriage and Reject MGTOW

I want leave MGTOW Christians with these reasons for marriage to combat all the MGTOW reasons against marriage.

You should marry because…

  1. God commanded marriage in his first command to “Be fruitful and multiply” (Genesis 1:28).
  2. God says that “is better to marry than to burn” with sexual desire (1 Corinthians 7:9).
  3. God only allows celibacy for those who have this special gift for undivided service to God (I Corinthians 7:7). The Bible does not allow celibacy for selfish reasons for fearful reasons regarding marriage.
  4. You cannot fully live out your purpose to image God without being a husband and father (I Corinthians 11:7).
  5. Married men are more successful and make more money than all other groups (single men, single women and married women (Proverbs 18:22).
  6. While a bad wife can cause great misery to a man, a good wife can bring great pleasure and happiness to his life. If you have a 65 percent chance of finding true joy and happiness in marriage as God designed it to be why would you not seize on this? (Proverbs 29:25)
  7. Even if you fall into that 35 of men whose wives divorce them your children from that marriage can remain a source of joy and happiness for the remainder of your life (Psalm 127:3-5)

I want to zoom on point number five above about married men being more successful than single men, single women or married women.

Quentin Fottrell wrote an article entitled “Married men earn more than everyone else (including single men)” for marketwatch.com where he made the following observations based on historic earnings data:

The wages of married men far surpass those of all of those groups. They exceed $80,000 per year by their peak earning years, while all the other groups barely graze $50,000 per year, according to data from the University of Minnesota and IPUMS-USA, a database of individual responses from the U.S. Census Bureau.”

While the world laments that married men still excel all other groups in their earnings this does not surprise me at all. It is a fulfillment of God’s Word:

“Whoso findeth a wife findeth a good thing, and obtaineth favour of the Lord.” – Proverbs 18:22

There was a commenter on another blog that said something like this – “Women are like hand grenades for men. You just have to hope when you marry one, they won’t explode and destroy your life”.

But this is what God has to say about marriage and against the whoremongering that is encouraged by MGTOW ideology as well as Red Pill ideology:

Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.” – Hebrews 13:4

A Final Word to Christian Fathers

As a father to my sons I could have fully embraced the MGTOW ideology. My first wife had two affairs on me with her ex-boyfriend.  When we got divorced, she took me for half of everything I had and I was saddled with a huge child support payment (we had five children together in that marriage). It was one of the hardest times of my life.

I did go through a brief period of depression and then bitterness and anger. But my relationship with God was too important to me to allow that bitterness to fester and destroy any joy I had left in my life. So, I gave my hurts to God and decided to move forward and risk marriage again. A little over a year after my divorce I married my second wife. And I made sure she was very different than my first wife.

As any of my readers know, it is very true that my second wife was very different than my first wife. But that just meant I would have a whole new set of challenges with my second wife that I did not have with my first wife. But in the end God has preserved us despite the trials and I came to thank God for my trials because some wonderful things came of them. I have five beautiful children, two of whom are now working adults, from my first marriage. I treasure the relationship I have with them and I am so excited about the prospect of my first grandchildren hopefully in the next few years.

God also taught me through the breakup of my first marriage that even though I thought we were following Biblical gender roles I really was behaving much like a beta husband trying to please my wife and not confronting her sinful attitudes as I should have.  As a result of my first divorce I became a much stronger man, became more grounded in my faith. I also realized that I could not live to please my wife and try to make her happy as that was a violation of of what I knew marriage was about.  Marriage is about seeking holiness, not happiness.  But happiness can come as a result of seeking holiness.

That meant I would no longer go out of my way to make sure my future wife was never upset or angry at me.   I would do what I thought was right whether she agreed or not.  She would not be the center of my world as I had often made my first wife. But instead caring for her physical and spiritual needs (as opposed to her wants) would be seen as only one part of the mission God had given me as a man.

I also thank God for the trials in my second marriage. My second wife’s feminist upbringing and her bucking of Biblical gender roles prompted me to start this ministry back in 2014. Over the last four years I have had over 6.5 million views and have been able to help many people each week via emails, comments and articles I have written.

If you are a Christian father reading this that has taught MGTOW ideology to you sons and discouraged them from marriage I pray you will repent of this. It is one thing to encourage your sons to wait for marriage until they are financially prepared to care for a wife and children and then to choose a wife very carefully. But it is a very different thing to completely discourage your son from God’s institution of marriage no matter how much feminism has poisoned our culture.

66 thoughts on “Why MGTOW is an Unbiblical Philosophy

  1. MGTOW is a growing philosophy and will never slow down untill western women have come back to the fold and started living again in God’s word and to God’s purpose for which they were designed.

    A vast majority of MGTOW men are divorced and have been fruitful and multiplied, just as God has commanded, only to have their labors, accomplishments, and children stripped away and to be thrown out like garbage.

    Because they have done their part in fulfilling God’s commandment they should be free to live out the rest of their lives in the service of God as they see fit without the hinderance and distractions of a western woman and feel no shame for it.

    Perhaps when our Churches are filled with enough happy MGTOW men and miserable divorced women then the destructive tide of feminism can be reversed.

    It permiates our society and our Churches at this point and can only be reversed by those who put it in place, Women!

    Women will only demand these changes when they see a benifit to themselves. MGTOW will starve them out.

    Christian Women. Call out the Jesebels and shun them in your daily lives and Churches! Call out 3rd wave femisim for the lie that it is! Call out adulterous behavior and give it the lable of shame it is deserving.

    Don’t delay in this because MGTOW will grow and you and your daughters will suffer for it. You will have to police yourselves on this because western law prohibits Men from doing it for you anymore.

    I’m a divorced MGTOW man and have a wonderful stable career. I’m handsome, active and have a great life. I’m an outstanding father to my children and by all measures of a man am successful and I will never again defile my flesh with the pleasure of a deceitful woman.

    God warned us of the deceitful nature of women in the bible and feminism has allowed that nature to run free. It up to you ladies to put that genie back in the bottle before all the best men are MGTOW.

  2. I understand and mostly agree with your response with one exception, and it may not even apply to you:

    A married man who’s wife divorces him is free to do as he pleases, as per the scripture, but I would hope that those Christian men who are married would not seek to leave their marriages for the MGTOW lifestyle as this would put them at odds with the bible. Personally I dont believe scripture gives us any reason to divorce but I understand there are those who do. For those who divorce for infidelity or such at least they do so in good conscience understanding that it is a biblically permitted reason. A wife who acts bitchy or has attitude, however, is not one of those reasons.

    A Christian man who is not married, however, is in a bind. If he desires sex he either has to do without, take care of it himself or marry. Soliciting prostitutes or charming ladies for one night stands is simply out of the question – the forum for sex is marriage. I suppose the advent of sex robots/dolls will alleviate the problem for some, but for many emotionless doll sex will be unfulfilling. Because of this I stand by my belief and BGRs that MGTOW is not something God approves in the way it is being marketed towards young men. You are an exception in this situation, though I am sure there are many like you.

    Unlike some I believe the concepts of game are necessary for marriage because overall women don’t care about a mans spirituality when it comes down to brass tacks. In older times women were put off of divorce or infidelity because of how their reputation would suffer in social circles. In modern times that threat is gone so that even long-time Christian women have been known to toss their Christianity out the window when they find another man whom they find more attractive than their husbands. They may say they care about their husbands spirituality, and I’m sure some do, but overall women just dont care when it comes to the weight of a mans spirituality in comparison to the weight of his bank account or muscle mass. The tactics of game should be integrated into a marriage so that a man can maintain himself as a man and maintain his wife’s loyalty and interest. However, if she fails to be faithful then she should be summarily discarded and her husband can decide as to whether or not he wants to marry again or avoid women altogether. Still, however, he runs into the same problem as a Christian man: If he desires sex, he must either abstain, handle it himself or marry.

    God warned us of the deceitful nature of women in the bible and the more a man, and men, take this into account the easier it becomes to see and control this nature. In ancient days men were fully aware of this and they passed this knowledge on to their sons, who also witnessed their fathers leadership of the home through his actions, as well as through his mothers obedience to her husband. That knowledge has been named taboo in the modern West, ESPECIALLY in the churches, where women have been elevated past sainthood and close to godhood. In order for marriage to be saved in the West these truths must be made evident and women brought back under authority. Without this it is a losing battle. The incredible thing is that the truths of the bible are widely accepted by non-believers, as BGR has pointed out, as simply biological fact, which, in my opinion, is by Gods design.

    MGTOW may be a good concept for one who has already married and has had his wife abandon him, but its not good teaching for young men, who’s thoughts and actions are almost entirely geared toward obtaining sex.

  3. “As a father to my sons I could have fully embraced the MGTOW ideology. My first wife had two affairs on me with her ex-boyfriend. When we got divorced, she took me for half of everything I had and I was saddled with a huge child support payment (we had five children together in that marriage). It was one of the hardest times of my life.” Along with this though, BGR, didn’t you once say that you took a hard-footed stance of no compromise and threatened to drag out the divorce proceedings indefinitely, resulting in her giving you what you wanted in the divorce?

  4. Tyler,

    Yes I absolutely took a hard-footed stance with her in the end. It was not until my marriage was ending and the divorce proceedings were well on their way that I finally found my strength. My eyes were opened to the my first’s wife’s treachery, deceitfulness and selfishness. My mission became my children. I told her I would part with half my 401K to her and I even gave her our home(which was nothing special as we bought it not long before the divorce).

    But my stand was on my children. I would share joint legal and physical custody with her and I would get my children three days a week (Friday, Saturday and Sundays) because I worked two jobs Monday through Friday and the weekend was the only time I had to spend with them. Also it was very important to me that they remain in church and I knew she would not take them(she left the church when her infidelity was found out and never returned).

    And thanks to God she gave it to me because I would have burned up my 401k and made her sell the house to pay for lawyers. I would have found every delay tactic and way to waste her time because to me my children were the most important thing. And because of that fight I was able to help my children through the divorce and our weekend time together throughout these years is something I have always treasured.

    In the end I did much better in my divorce than other men in my divorce support group did. But often what I found was they were afraid and had an unwillingness to fight. I on the other hand was willing to mount a scorched earth campaign against all our shared assets for the sake of having my children when I wanted them.

  5. Tyler,

    But having said what I said about my fight to have my children at the times I wanted them – it was still very hard for me. You don’t know how many times I said to myself and other friends in my anger during the divorce that if this were Biblical times I would not have to settle for having my children half the time, or give away half my assets and I certainly would not be paying my ex-wife child support each month. Instead she would be dead. I would have my children all the time, with my home and all my assets untouched. Because God did not reward women who committed adultery as our society does with half the assets of a man and half or more of the time with his children.

    I would honestly say that besides abortion, the sickest act as a society we commit is taking away a man’s children and his assets when his wife leaves him, especially when she leaves him for another man. Such a thing is foul and wicked in the eyes of God and before the 20th century it was foul and wicked even in the eyes of man.

  6. MGTOW,

    I would echo pretty close to all of what Snapper said. I do not think that God requires a divorced man with children such as yourself to marry a second wife. In fact while I have some differences with some of my brothers on if and when a man can remarry after divorce – I respect those who I have known that feel they cannot.

    But unlike you, I burned for a woman and as Paul said in I Corinthians 7:9 “it is better to marry than to burn” with sexual desire for a woman. Many divorced men get into a lot of trouble sexually like going to prostitutes, strip clubs and the like and I was not going to be one of those men. So while my children were extremely important to me, I knew that I could not go long without another wife else I would fall into great sexual sin. So I promised them that I would wait to marry another woman for at least one year and I kept that promise. I met my second wife on a Christian dating site a couple months after my divorce and we talked and dated for some time before I finally proposed. But we did not marry until 14 months after my divorce was final from my first wife.

    The danger of MGTOW is that it has been targeting young men, men who have never married and it tells them never to marry. And while I told you that God does not require you as divorced father to marry again, he DOES require your sons to seek out marriage if you have them. The only allowance for celibacy is in a life undivided service to God. Celibacy should never be used as a cloak for fear of marriage. So where this does apply to you is if you are teaching your sons or other young men not to marry as MGTOWs often do. If you are doing that you are sinning against God’s institution of marriage and his command to be fruitful and multiply. And while I agree with you that many women are treacherous today, I do believe, because I have seen them with my own eyes there are still women that are faithful to God, their husbands and the institution of marriage. Do not let your hurt deprive the young men around you of the chance to find such gems.

    Should young men be extra careful, take their time, court and test women as candidates for marriage? You bet they should! So it might take some men longer than others and that is OK as long as they have to goal to seek out marriage which is God’s will for their lives unless he has given them the gift of celibacy for his service.

  7. In western society today show me one man who has achieved enough to provide for a family in a biblical way before the age of 30. Look around in your churches who under that age can afford to raise a family as the sole provider? Even with the best education avaliable it is extremely rare.

    Now look around into your own churches and find me a woman who is a professed Christian between the age of 22-30 who is chaste and a virgin before God. Saving all of her sexuality for the one Man who will provide for her and her children untill life ends on this earth and submit to him in all things as God commands. I dare say you will find none.

    You will accept this as the way the world is today. Just as the Modern-day Church accepts all adulters, fornicators and single mothers/divorces with open arms.
    You will watch marriges implode and accept an adulterous spouse and her/his new lover into your church services without a word spoken against their sin.

    As long as this continues christian marrige is doomed. Less than 10% of our young women of child bearing age qualify as a virgin and pure bride. Even less than that meet the standard God sets forth for a good wife in proverbs

    “A good woman is hard to find,
    and worth far more than diamonds.
    Her husband trusts her without reserve,
    and never has reason to regret it.
    Never spiteful, she treats him generously
    all her life long.
    She shops around for the best yarns and cottons,
    and enjoys knitting and sewing.
    She’s like a trading ship that sails to faraway places
    and brings back exotic surprises.
    She’s up before dawn, preparing breakfast
    for her family and organizing her day.
    She looks over a field and buys it,
    then, with money she’s put aside, plants a garden.
    First thing in the morning, she dresses for work,
    rolls up her sleeves, eager to get started.
    She senses the worth of her work,
    is in no hurry to call it quits for the day.
    She’s skilled in the crafts of home and hearth,
    diligent in homemaking.
    She’s quick to assist anyone in need,
    reaches out to help the poor.
    She doesn’t worry about her family when it snows;
    their winter clothes are all mended and ready to wear.
    She makes her own clothing,
    and dresses in colorful linens and silks.
    Her husband is greatly respected
    when he deliberates with the city fathers.
    She designs gowns and sells them,
    brings the sweaters she knits to the dress shops.
    Her clothes are well-made and elegant,
    and she always faces tomorrow with a smile.
    When she speaks she has something worthwhile to say,
    and she always says it kindly.
    She keeps an eye on everyone in her household,
    and keeps them all busy and productive.
    Her children respect and bless her;
    her husband joins in with words of praise:
    “Many women have done wonderful things,
    but you’ve outclassed them all!”
    Charm can mislead and beauty soon fades.
    The woman to be admired and praised
    is the woman who lives in the Fear-of-God.”

    I will encourage my son to remain chaste untill marriage. To remain single untill he can provide for his family and to seek out a chaste virgin who meets the biblical description of a good wife when he can fulfil his duty as a husband. At the age of 30 I suspect his chances will be less than 1% of finding a worthy mate.

    I will also warn him of the consequence of the failure to make the right choice ,although he is seeing it first hand in his young life. When faced with a 1% chance of finding a woman who can accept being placed 2nd to God or anyone else I pray he can suppress his lust of the flesh and Go His Own Way to glorify God.

    Young men should be encouraged to cast away sinful women, not shamed for it. Only then will western women strive to walk in the word of God and cast away the lies of feminisim. Only then will men be allowed to be the rulers of our houses as God decreed in his holy word.

  8. MGTOW! Starve them out ! Make them repent from their trecherious ways!

    Make them put God and their Husbands before their vanities!

    Make them change by the only way left to us as men according to the law of the land!

    Remind them that the pedistal they expect to be placed upon belongs to God almighty!

    Make the few good women pressure the rest of the trecherious to follow in the word of god!

    If good women have to suffer to affect change in the bad women so be it.
    Those same good women have sat in silence for the last century in defacto support of feminism.

    Now they will suffer the lack of good men willing to approach them for fear of being labeled as a misogynist or a predetor or a rapist or any other disgusting feminist lable that can be thrown thier way.

    Only when women are starved of the attention they crave from men will they be willing to change.

    Will a few good women have to suffer? Yeah so what. It will never compare to the suffering of the good men who have been crushed under feminism while the good women sat in silence and watched as what God decreed as being a good man was systematically destroyed!

    Starve them out and go MGTOW! It is the only way left to us to restore Gods plan and the ballance. Go MGTOW and deny them the rule society and modern laws have over your God given sovereignty as a reflection of Gods own image!
    Go MGTOW untill you find a chaste woman willing to submit to the rule of her husband and who meets the biblical requirements for a Godly wife. If you wait for this from a western woman your chances are slim to none but you have still followed Gods teachings and shouldn’t feel shame for the lack of suitable wives.
    Go Your Own Way and glorify god with your life on this earth!

  9. MGTOW,

    Let me first start with what you said at the end and then address what you said at the beginning.

    Your Statement:

    “I will encourage my son to remain chaste until marriage. To remain single untill he can provide for his family and to seek out a chaste virgin who meets the biblical description of a good wife when he can fulfil his duty as a husband. “

    This is great and very Biblical! Amen! This is what I have also encouraged my sons to do.

    Your Statement:

    “In western society today show me one man who has achieved enough to provide for a family in a biblical way before the age of 30. Look around in your churches who under that age can afford to raise a family as the sole provider? Even with the best education avaliable it is extremely rare.

    Now look around into your own churches and find me a woman who is a professed Christian between the age of 22-30 who is chaste and a virgin before God. Saving all of her sexuality for the one Man who will provide for her and her children untill life ends on this earth and submit to him in all things as God commands. I dare say you will find none..At the age of 30 I suspect his chances will be less than 1% of finding a worthy mate.” “

    Now this is where you may be failing your son. If you have such an attitude of pessimism with him about being able to provide for a family you will hamper him. As parents we are to not only give our children the standards of God’s Word – as you did in the other statement for which I commended you, but we are also to be a source of encouragement to them.

    I absolutely agree that a large chunk of millennials today are living at their parents for far too long and are not ambition toward marriage and family they ought to. Men are waiting far too long to build careers where they can support a family. And women wait too long to get married wasting time going to college and hanging out with their girlfriends. I said in the comments of that article that the skilled trades are in high demand and even if one attends college there is absolutely no reason that young man could not be 50K or more a year before he is 25. But it requires ambition and it requires encouragement from others – including one’s parents.

    And if you move into a rural or suburban area in the right parts of the country you can support a family on that. It will be tight but it can be done. I have several male relatives 25 or under who doing just that.

    My oldest son just finished his college IT cert program at age 20 and he is making 30K to start and will be making 35K by end of year. Within two years he will be making 50K a year and it will continue to climb from there. My other son who is 19 always struggled in school and actually dropped out because he was not going to graduate by 19. He went and got his GED, then became a plumbers apprentice at 17 and now at 19 years old he is making 35 to 40K a year. By the time he is in his is 25 as a journey man plumber he will make 50 to 60K a year and he will continue to add to that as he gets more experience.

    So I am sorry but I have to strongly disagree with you that a man cannot support a family until he is 30. Only a man with no ambition or one who thinks he has to have a huge house, two new cars in the drive way and a big vacation fund would think this. And he would be wrong.

    Also in the area of finding a good woman. My daughter who will be turning 17 in the next few months is one of the most spiritual women I know. She witnesses to her friends and she is a huge pro-life advocate in the public school she attends. My niece (early 20s) is a godly woman who followed my father’s instructions(he adopted my niece and nephew) and she remained a virgin for marriage. I know many other Christian woman that have done the same.

    Are they a minority? Yes. Are they 1%, I think it is a bit higher than that.

    Also show me a man who says he can’t find a godly woman and I will ask him have you looked outside your local circle of people? Have you have actually gone on dating sites to talk to people? Have networked with larger communities and churches? We as the older generation need to be prodding our young people to be ambitious for what God has for them to do. We should not be setting them up for failure and telling them it is impossible for them to follow God’s ways.

    I totally get that the America and the western world is screwed up. I talk about that all the time on this blog. But come on man. Part of being a Christian is having hope. And I see none of that in what you are teaching your son.

    Please understand I am not trying to pick on you or disrespect you. I have been through a nasty divorce. I have had my wife cheat on me. I have been there. But we as Christians can never loose hope and we must instill that sense of hope, even in the darkest hour, in our children.

  10. MGTOW, my husband was ready and able to provide before the age of 30…and he never went to college!! He worked since he was young and built his way up in several skill sets, becoming very proficient in one in particular.

    He met a church-going, conservative virgin who believes in Biblical submission and we wed 18 months after meeting.

    I was a stay at home wife, and then stay at home mother. I currently work part time, now, but I don’t absolutely have to. I do so because we had a big medical issue years ago that dumped us in debt and I am helping hubby dig our way out of it.

    So, yes, us unicorns do exist.

  11. BGR, I agree with your reply to MGTOW. Too many Christians get caught up in the world’s steps to success. Boys are kept baby boys too long, and the educational system keeps them dull and useless too long. They focus on fun and sports and the “college experience,” instead of establishing a path for supporting a family.

    By the onset of puberty boys should begin working towards an established career, even if it is mowing lawns and picking up dog poop. We took our oldest son out of school so he could work towards his career path. He is homeschooled and works alongside his father in a trade. School filled him with liberal arts college prep that left in feeling useless and stupid. Here at home I can give him a thinking man’s education and his dad can establish a career path for him.

    We already told him we will pay for trade school, but we will not pay for a “college experience.” If he wanted to be a doctor or a teacher, then, yes, we would pay towards his college ed, because it is required for the career, but just for the sake of going? No!

    As for our daughters…..ugh…feminism has destroyed so much. Thankfully, mine are still young. My oldest girl doesn’t want to marry or have kids. I emphasize that she can thus never have sex, and must consecrate her life to the service of our Lord. Otherwise, she must be open to marriage and children, and keep herself pure for that.

    I know many mothers, Catholic and Protestant, who are teaching their daughters well. We must also teach our boys to stop looking at women of the world. Sure, they dress more revealing, spend too much time and money on hair and makeup that in comparison makes a more modest girl look plain Jane, and they act more sexually confident and ambitious, but you will likely not find a happy end there. I know many modest young ladies in the church waiting for the promise of a good man to notice them. My husband wasted so much time on women of the world. He was ready to be a confirmed bachelor when he met me. I was ready to despair that any man would ever notice me unless I started dressing and acting like a harlot. But, hubby took a chance with someone so different….in his past he passed up a girl similar to me. She wasn’t “fun” like the other girls. She was more demure and marriage-minded. He regretted it, so he jumped at the chance when I came into his life. We were together 6 weeks when he started talking marriage.

  12. I understand the MGTOW response given the environment for men with feminism today. With that said, it is NOT a Christian response, but a secular one.

    Some of the tenants of MGTOW such as “all women are like that” are FLATLY FALSE, but they spout them like they are some kind of in stone truth. I would be onboard with “many women are like that” in today’s world, especially the many women who are being seriously deceived. Men are being deceived also. The environment is absolutely against doing what is biblically correct to do. All this said, it is not impossible, and this is what I liked most from your fantastic article about this BGR, the positivity of you can do this right.

    I was able to provide for a family before the age of 30. It was tough and I had to work a second business on top of my job. I have been able to do this and not have my wife work. I had to work hard and scrap for it, and even so money has been tight at times. I think that age is the enemy, my thought is that the more you get out of the “wife of your youth” zone, the less likely the chance is you will have a “wife of your youth”. Pushing people to marry later and later is working against God’s plan of marriage.

    I know that BGR is a big proponent of a man being able to fully provide for his wife, but I personally ponder whether some parental help can be a good thing for an early marriage providing the young couple is doing all that they should (working hard with school and not being lazy). This should be short term help, but if it pushes a young couple even a couple to few of years earlier, more towards what should be and not what our society pushes everyone into, it could be a good thing.

    I think young men and women need to get real with who they are and who God created them to be. Men need to step up and start leading and start being responsible. They need to start imaging God’s attributes in a way that glorifies Him. Women need to stop thinking they are men or should live as men and stop competing with men and graciously accept their role as a woman who was created to help and serve her husband. I think they should get married earlier and be fully committed to each other in proper biblical marriage before God.

    So this brings up an interesting question in my mind, perhaps not a discussion for these comments/article, but did young men who married in the past have more parental support in terms of inheritance or family business opportunity.

  13. Divorce rates for 1st marriages are 50% in the Christian Church. Second marriages 64%. Third marriages 75%.

    I won’t be my son’s life enough to have an impact on his attitudes. 4 days a month will never be enough.

    I will not however send him headlong into the world without the knowledge that any woman at any time for any reason can destroy everything he holds dear and that being a Christian holds no sway over the odds of that happening.

    It’s not really a question of if she will. It’s simply the fact that she can if she feels like It.

    To not arm him with this knowledge is to do a disservice to him as a father.

    Not knowing may greatly improve his chances for marriage but it will also greatly increase his chances of failure in that marriage because he failed to choose wisely.

    Now about MGTOW men targeting young men this is simply untrue.

    Young men come to MGTOW looking for advice because they know something is wrong in this world between men and women but they don’t know what it is.

    Most don’t know because they were raised by single feminist mothers and taught feminist dogma in their homes, schools and Churches.

    MGTOW only provide the knowledge to these young men that their own fathers weren’t able to provide.

    A true MGTOW doesn’t advocate or encourage gaming women. Some secular MGTOW may promote prostitution as an alternative but a Christian MGTOW will always encourage celibacy. It’s a community made up of both so there are differing opinions.

    Now on to my 1% assertion that my son may find a suitable wife. Let’s look at the facts and approach things from what is real as opposed to what we want to be real.

    Even if we lower my sons age to be able to suppot a family to 21. Only 12% of women between the ages of 15 and 21 are virgins in the west. When you eliminate the 15-17 girls who are not of age to marry now you are down to 4 to 5%. Of those women how many will fit the description of a biblical wife and not be indoctrinated with feminist ideals. I’ll be generous and say 2%. Out of those 2% how many will my son find to be attractive?

    I’d say my earlier estimate of 1% was a bit optimistic.

    So now look around you with fresh eyes and see that the # of Western women who meet the biblical standards for what men should seek in a wife is 1% or less for a woman 18-21. After 21 years of age the percentage of chaste women plummets and your chances effectively fall to 0. This is how things are. Not how we wish they could be. I’m just the messenger in this.

    So you tell me do we encourage our sons to follow God’s word or do we arm our sons with the knowledge that todays wives are not what God created for man and bow down to feminism by encouraging concessions in selecting a mate?

    If you promote selection by biblical standards and remaining pure untill marriage in today’s world to young men then you are promoting the purest form of MGTOW by default.

  14. MGTOW,

    Your Statement:

    “I will not however send him headlong into the world without the knowledge that any woman at any time for any reason can destroy everything he holds dear and that being a Christian holds no sway over the odds of that happening.
    It’s not really a question of if she will. It’s simply the fact that she can if she feels like It.
    To not arm him with this knowledge is to do a disservice to him as a father.”

    Again I and the others here would whole-heartedly agree with you that men need to be equipped and warned about what they face in this post feminist world. None of us here has said this is wrong. You seem to be thinking we are saying you should not warn him and that is not the case at all sir. But the best way I could explain it is like this. In war – a commander might pull out a map and show his soldiers were all the enemy mines and other anti-personnel things are. But he is not going to say “Well since it is so endangers and you have a high chance of death, then just don’t go.” No the solider must go. And so must we. God commands us to go out into a sin curse world and follow his commands. That means navigating the minefield of a feminist world to find a good Christian wife.

    Your Statement:

    “Now about MGTOW men targeting young men this is simply untrue.
    Young men come to MGTOW looking for advice because they know something is wrong in this world between men and women but they don’t know what it is.”

    Actually it is very true that MGTOW targets young men as seen from mgtow.com’s faq page:

    “I heard that you stop weddings. What do you charge?

    Save a Male and Stop a Wedding™ is an unregistered trademark of MGTOW.com.

    Yes, we have prevented 7 weddings in 4 years. Two of them right in the middle of the ceremony. The groom(s) were shown evidence that their fiancées had recently been at a bachelorette party just prior to the wedding and performed oral sex on a male stripper…. and then paid the stripper and their bar tab with their future husband’s credit card.

    We charge a very small % of what the groom would lose in a divorce, which saves him a fortune. In the case of a high-profile example – like Tiger Woods – who’s wife was bad in bed and beat him with a golf club, she made off with 1/4 of a billion dollars. We would have only charged $2.5 million to stop that wedding. That represents a savings for Mr. Woods of $247,500,000. Not too shabby.”

    Can you be married and a MGHOW?

    There has been some deliberation on this, but the short answer is “no”.

    While it’s certainly possible that a man may have married 20 years ago, and recently became self-aware of the very precarious legal position he finds himself in today . . . this would be the only real way he could consider adopting a MGTOW lifestyle if he were contemplating divorce.

    Cohabitation and the signing of a marriage contract eliminates any possibility that he has a true 100% agency over the outcome of his marriage and future. With 72%+ of divorces solely initiated by women (the number is much higher because she can still passively initiate while making it look like his idea) his kids, house, cars, freedom and ultimate destiny no longer belong to him exclusively. No matter how much he wants his marriage to work, he can’t legally control the outcome and can be totally devastated by the divorce. Divorce is a huge, billion-dollar industry deliberately designed to transfer his wealth and freedom to her, leaving him with little or no recourse – even if he were totally faithful and she had 50 affairs since the wedding.

    Save a male and stop a wedding™ is an unregistered trademark of MGTOW.com”

    https://www.mgtow.com/faq/

    By their own words MGTOW purposely tries to stop men from marrying. They even talked in another article about how they all lamented that Prince Harry got married.

    Maybe the MGTOW groups you associate with don’t actively try to discourage men from marriage in any case – but many do. I would argue if your group still encourages marriage for young me you are a minority MGTOW group.

  15. I’ll just correct one little thing I feel you have overlooked in your assesment.

    “By their own words MGTOW purposely tries to stop men from marrying.”

    All of the examples you quoted show MGTOW purposly trying to stop men from marriage to impure and un-godly harlots. If you believe such women are deserving of marriage then you should take a fresh look inward.

    Your second example I’ll quote for clarity.

    “Cohabitation and the signing of a marriage contract eliminates any possibility that he has a true 100% agency over the outcome of his marriage and future. With 72%+ of divorces solely initiated by women (the number is much higher because she can still passively initiate while making it look like his idea) his kids, house, cars, freedom and ultimate destiny no longer belong to him exclusively. No matter how much he wants his marriage to work, he can’t legally control the outcome and can be totally devastated by the divorce. Divorce is a huge, billion-dollar industry deliberately designed to transfer his wealth and freedom to her, leaving him with little or no recourse – even if he were totally faithful and she had 50 affairs since the wedding.”

    Nowhere in this statement does it say ” don’t ever get married”

    This is a warning of a probable outcome of failed marriage. These are irrefutable facts that are presented to men as to guide them into making good choices in partner selection.

    If a man goes into marriage knowing these things because he has found his unicorn or thinks his special girl won’t do that to him or ever change a MGTOW will just shrug and say” best of luck and I’ll pray for your union to be a long and happy one”
    If it’s not though don’t say you weren’t warned.

    MGTOW recognize that the game is rigged against them with ever increasing odds and the only way to beat a rigged game is not to play.

    The modern institution of marriage no longer belongs to God. It is now of this world. Bring marriage back to God’s design and MGTOW will disappear into the ranks of married men once again without complaint.

  16. MGTOW,

    you left off the first part of their statement on marriage

    “you be married and a MGHOW?

    There has been some deliberation on this, but the short answer is “no”.
    While it’s certainly possible that a man may have married 20 years ago, and recently became self-aware of the very precarious legal position he finds himself in today . . . this would be the only real way he could consider adopting a MGTOW lifestyle if he were contemplating divorce.”

    A straight forward question was asked. Can u be MGTOW and be married? The answer was NO. They gave one exception for a married man who was contemplating divorce.

    MGTOW is about far more than warning men about what women can do to them in marriage. It advocates for the utter abandonment of even seeking marriage in our current culture.

    It is one thing to warn men of the dangers and pitfalls in choosing a wife. I do that all over this site and so do many other Christian bloggers.

    But it is very much another to tell men that to they should not even attempt to find a good wife and marry right now until the culture changes.

  17. The Christian homeschool movement produces a constant supply of traditionally minded young women who would make excellent brides for young men seeking a chaste, submissive wife. These young women have been reared without the daily influence of liberal, secular humanists.

    Perhaps it is time for Christians warm up to prenups. Prenups could be a useful tool for turning the tables on the feminized legal system that makes it profitable for unscrupulous wives to forsake their marriage vows and leave her husband. If the woman is unwilling to sign it, she is not worth marrying.
    Here are some articles to be included:

    1. A certification of complete premarital chastity. If the bride is determined to be compromised prior to consummation of the marriage, the marriage is null and void and the bride and her family will be responsible to pay certain damages along with her returning any courtship, engagement, or wedding gifts received from the groom.

    2. The marriage shall be a biblically grounded marriage in which the husband is the human head under the lordship of Jesus Christ. The wife shall be his help meet and submit to him in everything as the church should submit to Christ. The wife understands that this marriage is not an equal partnership and that although he may allow her to give her opinion, her husband has no obligation to act as she thinks best. The husband alone is the ultimate human authority with regard to all matters of the marriage and the family. He may delegate certain responsibilities to his wife, which she should carry out according to his expressed instructions. At any time, he may alter her responsibilities without her agreement. The wife shall not make any major purchases (over $250.00) without his permission.

    3. If at any point she engages in adulterous sexual activity, the husband shall be entitled to divorce her and she will be required to sign an uncontested divorce petition and settlement which she receives nothing but what she owned prior to marriage or that which replaced such possessions during the marriage, granted that if the husband replaced it with a far more valuable item, he may liquidate said item and give her a replacement of similar kind to that with which she entered the marriage. (For example, she had a seven year old Honda Civic when they married. The husband bought a BMW X3 for her to drive when the Civic needed a major repair. He is entitled to sell the BMW and get her another Civic of substantially similar age and value as hers was when they entered marriage). She shall only be entitled to any household goods and furnishings which her husband desires to give her.

    4. The wife will graciously engage in regular marital relations with the husband according to his desires. Her schedule shall be arranged in such a way that she is available when he wants her. She shall have no right to refuse relations with him under normal circumstances. She may request a reprieve from relations only for significant and obvious reasons. She further understands that she shall willingly surrender her body to him for his satisfaction and gratification. She shall allow him to perform any decent, natural act on her and not refuse performing any decent, natural act on him he desires (decent, natural acts include fellatio and cunnilingus but not anal intercourse). The wife agrees that the principle of submission applies especially to sexual relations.

    5. The wife agrees that children are a gift and a blessing from the Lord. She will actively submit to her husband as he seeks to impregnate her, as often as he seeks to do so according to God’s will in growing their family. She will not seek to deceive him in anyway to have more or less children than he believes God will for them to have. This means that she will be in complete submission to him regarding the use of birth control. She further agrees that children do not relieve her primary duties to her husband. She shall keep him first always before the children.

    6. She also agrees that in the event of divorce, she shall give him primary custody of the children and that she may only have such visitation rights as he deems necessary. She further agrees that he shall be the sole decision maker in legal, educational, physical, and religious matters on behalf of the children.

    That’s a good start, but I’ll keep working on it.

    Another thing that has bothered me for some time is the focus on the bride in weddings. It adds up to female worship. It’s her show. Everyone stands as she enters and walks down the isle. This is a very unbiblical focus. If marriage is to picture Christ and the church, the wedding should be more groom focused. I believe that the groom should wear white also (I wore a white tux at mine differing from my groomsman) and that perhaps the groom should walk down the aisle as a better picture of Christ coming for His bride. Her waiting on him would also better show the gentle and quite spirit of a godly wife and his manly prerogative in coming to her rather than waiting on her to come to him.

  18. Don’t see the confusion in the answer “No” to being a MGTOW. That’s about as logical an answer a on can get. How can a man go his own way yet be yolked to another? Its like saying “Can a man walk with God but still do his own thing?” No! Simple enough.

    Once again no mention of not marrying in that statement just a clear acknowledgement that you can be a married man or MGTOW can’t have your cake and eat it too.

    As to your belief that MGTOW have some motive to undermine marriage, I’m afraid you have us confused with FEMINIST.

    MGTOW is a logical male response to our current feminist culture it’s not for everyone and it doesn’t care if you understand or not.

    I’ve made a logical cost/benifit analysis to the modern marriage arrangement, weighed it against the odds of success and decided it’s no longer for me. This is how a MGTOW is made. Other men communicate to each other that they have come to the same conclusion. That is how the MGTOW community is born.

    We don’t care one way or another if you or your neighbor or your son or even our own son’s decide to roll the dice at marriage. Best of luck but were out. We shouldn’t be shamed or chastised and called ungodly for our choice.

    You battle feminism your way by meeting it head on. MRA and Trad-cons have tried this approach for years and still are loosing ground in the war everyday.

    MGTOW approach the battle from a different angle. Starve it out. Remove ourselves from harms way and let it die from lack of the nourishment they used to get from our bodies.

    Best of luck with your battles brother and enjoy your walk with God.

  19. MGTOW,

    Your Statement:

    “I won’t be my son’s life enough to have an impact on his attitudes. 4 days a month will never be enough.”

    First let me say I am very sorry to hear that you only have your son 4 days a month. I am assuming this means you get him for a couple days every other weekend. I know of some men from divorce support group that settle for a similar situation under pressure from their lawyers and their wife’s lawyers. Have you considered hiring a lawyer and going back to fight for more parenting time with him? I agree it is an uphill battle if you did not fight for it and win in the original divorce. Trust me – I had to fight hard and threaten to drain our financial assets dry to get what I wanted from first wife. When she saw I was willing to drag the divorce out for years and do just that and she would not get anything from my savings or 401K(because I said I would give it all to the lawyers to delay and fight her) she yielded.

    With that said – lets say for whatever reason it is impossible for you to increase the time you have with your son. Then in that case you need to treasure and make the most of those 4 days a month. You need to pour yourself into him. Being a good father is not about the quantity of time you spend with your children as much as it is about the quality. Making every moment count. Do you not see that you are taking the same defeatist attitude about impacting your son’s attitude as you do toward marriage itself?

    Just because there is less time to spend with your son does not mean you cannot still have a huge impact on his life in the same way that just because there are far fewer eligible good Christian women to marry does not mean a man should not try to find one of these women to fulfill God’s design and commands for his life.

    This is one of my biggest problems with MGTOW – it is basically a defeatist ideology that just “gives up”. No sir – we must fight for what is right. We must search for those rare gems, those rare women that are still godly. We must make the most of the time we have to impact our children for Christ.

    I have many friends who are over the road truckers. They have no choice for economic reasons. Many of them only see their children two weekends a month, very similar to the way that many divorced Dads see their kids. But when they are home it is a joyous time! and they make the absolutely most of every moment they can spend with their wife and children.

    You need to do the same with your son. Please do not pass on this defeatist attitude and this bitterness toward the world to your son. I hate what feminism has done as much as you do. But as Christians God calls us to be hopeful brother. He calls for us to be lights that shine in the darkness.

  20. MGTOW,

    Your Statement:

    ” You battle feminism your way by meeting it head on. MRA and Trad-cons have tried this approach for years and still are loosing ground in the war everyday.

    MGTOW approach the battle from a different angle. Starve it out. Remove ourselves from harms way and let it die from lack of the nourishment they used to get from our bodies.”

    I realize you are probably done responding, but I just wanted to respond to this for the sake of my readers.

    Yes, I and many other Christians in the Manosphere believe in fighting feminism by engaging it head on. And we accept that as in any war, there will be casualties along the way. But in all honesty I don’t see much difference between what you are doing and what beta husbands do. How many Christian men go into marriage and just surrender the headship God has given them to their wives? So many Christian men literally hand their sovereignty over to wives to appease them and our feminist culture.

    What a Christian Masculinist does is he enters the fight headlong. He does his battle planning and seeks to navigates the mine field of feminist women to find that precious jewel of a woman who is a conservative, Bible believing, virgin woman. But even then he knows she is sinner just like he is. So he knows even with this woman he will have do battle in his marriage against both his own sin nature as well as hers. He will have to fight the poisonous clouds of feminism that try to infect his home every day. It will be a battle he must fight the rest of his life.

    But MGTOW with its “starve them out” strategy literally encourages men to walk of the battle field. And in doing so you abandon the purpose for which man was made which was to image God, or display the attributes of God with his life. You cannot fully image God as you were designed to do without being a husband and father. MGTOW may teach that a man can have a perfectly fulfilling life without marriage, but not according to God’s Word. You are not doing what he designed you to do, therefore your life cannot be as fulfilling as it would be.

    Basically MGTOWs teaching is like saying an eagle can have a perfectly fulfilling life without ever flying.

    And let’s consider once again this “starve them out” strategy. I actually believe in a “starve them out” strategy as well. But my proposal is to starve out the feminist women and marry only the non-feminist women. Yours by your own admission would take out even the good women, blaming them for not standing up enough to the bad women. (by the way my daughter speaks out against feminism with her friends all the time). Yours is a strategy of bitterness and vindictiveness and not one that matches a Christian world view. My daughter is a good Christian woman, as are many women that come and regularly comment on this blog. These women do not deserve to be “starved out” from marriage because of the wickedness of the women around them.

    I leave with you with this famous quote:

    “The Only Thing Necessary for the Triumph of Evil is that Good Men Do Nothing”

  21. Wiscot,

    Your Statement:

    “The Christian homeschool movement produces a constant supply of traditionally minded young women who would make excellent brides for young men seeking a chaste, submissive wife. These young women have been reared without the daily influence of liberal, secular humanists.”

    Amen and Amen. The Christian homeschool movement is one of the last remaining holdouts against the feminist culture. My niece who was adopted by my parents was home schooled by them, and while she is an imperfect woman and struggles a bit with organization with her home but she remained a virgin until marriage and followed my father’s guidance in dating. She is a very submissive wife and wants to please God with the kind of wife she is and mother she is. She cares very much about taking care of her husbands needs, making sure his lunches and dinners are always made and that he has what he needs to be successful in his job. Occasionally she gets out of line, but when she does her husband will put her back in line, or I or my father will if she says does something in front of us.

  22. BGR – the MGTOW way is that ALL women are guilty by simply being women. Honestly that has some scary parallels to feminism, doesn’t it? Their acronym is AWALT – all women are like that. They aren’t looking for a Godly women; they have convinced themselves that ALL women are bad and that the only solution is complete avoidance. I truly think this is where they are misguided. As if someday, all will be returned to normal, and a switch will be flipped and they will once again resume normal relationships with women after women “have returned”. That day is never going to come!
    What you replied above is absolute gold right here:
    >What a Christian Masculinist does is he enters the fight headlong. He does his battle
    >planning and seeks to navigates the mine field of feminist women to find that precious
    >jewel of a woman who is a conservative, Bible believing, virgin woman. But even then
    >he knows she is sinner just like he is. So he knows even with this woman he will have
    >do battle in his marriage against both his own sin nature as well as hers.

  23. Wiscot, I know of a couple where the bride didn’t know when her wedding day would come. She got everything ready on her end, but it was her husband who planned the rest of the wedding, including the date. When the secret day came, his groomsmen came to the bride’s house and announced, “the bridegroom commeth!!” She then had to get ready and await the groom to come and take her to the ceremony.

    My husband wanted little to nothing to do with the wedding, so I gave up my dream wedding and agreed to do as simple a ceremony as possible. Hubby was and is very marriage-minded, NOT wedding-minded. He asked me if I regret or resent not having my dream wedding, and early on I did, but now, no.

  24. livinginblurredlines,

    And Proverbs 31:10 is why I always call godly Christian women “gems” or “jewels”.

    It also tells us that even back in Biblical times it was hard to find a good a wife. The difference back then was the worst your wife could do to you was be nasty, mean, horrible in bed and a horrible mother. But she could not leave you and take half your stuff, your kids and get child support every month from you.

  25. Anm1,

    I agree that one of the many errors of MGTOW is the AWALT thinking. And you are absolutely right that they are no different than Feminists who say all men are rapists and abusers of women. The only thing that all women, and for that matter all men have in common is that we are all sinners from birth. But the truth is some of us sin a lot more than others and some of us live in sin while others try through with the help of the Holy Spirit to live for God.

    And really AWALT thinking even infects the Red Pill their Game theories. Women are not all the same, just like men are not all the same. There are certainly patterns of masculine and feminine behavior no doubt, but there are a lot of variations within these patterns of behavior.

  26. I understand that you see that you are fighting feminism more head on than MGTOW. Ironically, it seems that the only ones to really take feminism head on is Islam. Their examples of winning in areas of Europe seem to be the only “successes” so far. So do you starve feminism, persuade against feminism, or expect feminism to submit?

  27. Eliminate child support and eliminate alimony. My husband is paying child support to his cheating ex and therefore taking money from our family. His ex has happily married another man and still lives financially off my husband while her family is very well-off. This woman has had kids with THREE different men and was basically rewarded by our current legal system for her poor choices. Situations like this are very common, even for young people like me. My question is, since technically a marriage is a contract why is nobody held accountable when they leave their spouse for unjustified reasons? I believe this corruption is a large motivating factor in why the MGTOW movement started. I actually don’t blame a man for not wanting to legally marry or have kids. I have seen so many men get everything taken from them after their wife divorces them. On the other hand, I also wouldn’t blame a woman for giving up on submitting to her husband. Many women (including myself) have been forced to take on both positions of homemaker/mother all while working full-time to supplement income. I think a good start in solving this problem would be to make strong changes within our legal system. Stop rewarding people (primarily women) with money because they chose to divorce or commit adultery. Nobody is held accountable for their actions on things that actually matter. Oh no, don’t you dare call that transgender person by the wrong pronoun though or you could land yourself in jail.

  28. I think there is something very important that both BGR and MGTOW are missing about feminism. Feminism is absolutely Satan’s work and is responsible for 99% of the ills of American society, but feminism is also a rebuttal of men failing to do their jobs. When women no longer feel safe in their homes (God’s given place for them), it makes sense that they rebel and try and seek out security on their own. If men make their secondary (God being primary) purpose to protect and provide, women would not feel the need to strike out on their own to protect themselves and their children.

    For background, I have been married for 24 years and always strive for perfect submission. My husband physically disciplines me when he sees the need and I do not rebel against that. He also requires sexual release twice a day and I am always available to him, no matter what else I may be doing. Every morning I tell him “I am at your disposal”, whether it is for running errands, cooking him a snack or sexual release. On his side, he strives to make me and our six children safe and well provided for. I have no need to protect myself, but I realize other women are not so lucky. I still think feminism is evil, but I understand where some women find it necessary.

  29. >So do you starve feminism, persuade against feminism, or expect feminism to submit?

    BGR I’m sure has his answer, but mine is that feminism is evil from its onset. Confront and rebuke it as such. Do not do anything to assist or further it with your resources and time. Call it out where and when you can. One thing that MGTOW does have right is “do not engage in it”. I would disagree with them on the HOW that is implemented. They say to just avoid the whole thing, but I much prefer the strong Godly man approach of still having relationship AND be strong in calling out / rebuke things that are not on the right path.

    So, I was discussing some of these themes with my son a few days ago and the subject of prenups came up. As much as I hate the idea of two young people who love Jesus having to have such a thing as if they have enough character, their commitment and word should be good (let your yes be yes and your no be no). Still, what of prenups – can these offer a man considering marriage some protection from the insanity of laws bent against him?

  30. Alice,

    Your Statement:

    “feminism is also a rebuttal of men failing to do their jobs.”

    Because men and women are both sinners, they will always be a certain percentage of men who fail to be the providers and protectors God meant them to be and there will be wives who are nothing but “rottenness” to their husband’s bones (Proverbs 12:4).

    But I would take issue with saying men in mass had failed to do their job as men and that is why feminism came about. That is absolutely untrue. Men built the world and men for the most part cared for their wives and children. Feminism in the mid-19th century was born out of a rebellious spirit, and it was built upon egalitarianism. Female abolitionists reasoned to themselves – “If I am fighting for a black man’s equality with the white man, why can’t women be equal with men?” It was born out of woman’s envy of the position God gave to man.

    Now I will say some of it was to help women who were abused by some men. But even in that case – sometimes the cure is worse than the disease. If you have a disease that affects a small percentage of people, you then come up with a cure for that disease and that cure ends up killing more people than the disease did was it worth it? Logically speaking we must say no it was not.

    So in order to help a small percentage of women abused by men we gave women divorce rights, custody rights and the right to his property and even to own property thus disconnecting women from their dependence on men. Later in the 20th century we would even add socialism in then mix and give women not only their ex-husbands money, but money from the state further incentivizing the destruction of the family. All of this freed women to rebel again men and the order God had established since creation and it ultimately lead to the decimation of marriage and the family.

    So yes sometimes the cure is much deadlier than the disease and int his case feminism, the supposed cure for women being abused by men or not provided for by men, was FAR worse than the disease itself.

    And we continue to repeat this same error in so many ways today. Socialism is another prime example – it proports to be the cure for poverty, but in the end simply causes poverty while taking away the natural God given rights of men.

  31. Alice, I do believe there is some truth to what you say. I have always striven (strove?) to be a biblical submissive prov 31 wife. I still desire that, but when I was such a woman my husband didn’t like it and treated me poorly. Since I have started working outside the home and being more “mouthy” about what I want or need, and even talking back a little to hubby, he respects me a LOT more. He is ecstatic about our marriage, now. He actually prefers me to be more feministic and independent.

    Maybe it is because he was raised by a feminist single mom. I miss being the keeper of my home and hate seeing it fall to pot because I am working.

    A lot of the guys he works with want working women who can cuss, shoot, drink, and sex up as good as any guy. This is the result of decades of feminism.

  32. @Alice Historically, women have never been safer than now. They rebel because it has also never been safer to do so against a husband and to force him to keep providing at the same time. Regardless of your own submission, you can understand where they are coming from because you have the same rebellious nature.

  33. @BGR I agree that feminism came from women wanting to be equal to men, but I wonder why that came about. I also find it very foolish, as true freedom lies in submission to one’s husband. I’m glad women have the right to vote, since I vote under the direction of my husband, he essentially has two votes now!

    @livingblurredlines I’m sorry about your situation, I would hate to have to work outside my home. My husband is the opposite of yours, though, he loves my complete submission and if I get “mouthy” he deals with that quickly and mercilessly.

    @Wood Chipper I disagree that women are safer now. Men feel much more free to grab women or cat call them than they did 100 years ago. I do not feel safe walking through a covered garage alone at the mall, every time I’ve taken the subway in NYC I’ve been groped. And of course I have a rebellious nature! I think every human being does. When things do not go the way we want or when there are trials in our lives, it is perfectly normal to feel rebellious. The sin lies in acting on that. When a loved one dies and we mourn, are we not rebelling against God?

  34. @Alice You can disagree (and troll) all you like, but crime statistics don’t lie. Even if you don’t FEEL safe, the parking garages and everywhere but the worst neighborhoods have less crime than ever. News stories make you FEEL like this isn’t true and that more people are out to get you. Plus, if areas were so unsafe, chances are you wouldn’t spend so much more time there than downtown Detroit.

  35. I think MGTOW can be a crutch and an excuse for not doing the work needed to square yourself away and then find a solid Christian woman to share a proper marriage with.

    6 years ago I married a college educated, Christian virgin, who understood biblical gender roles, rejects feminism, and rejects divorce. Since then, we’ve had two beautiful kids that are growing up with Mom and Dad, and my career and sex life have been consistently awesome. While married, my income has nearly quadrupled.

    Imagine if I was too lazy to prepare myself for marriage, or too pessimistic to bother looking for the old-school, conservatively-raised virgins that desperately want a solid man to marry and lead them. They exist. I know a few still, that think they’ll never find that guy. Get out of your moms basement or off your computer and go find them.

  36. Wood Chipper,

    Your Question:

    “So do you starve feminism, persuade against feminism, or expect feminism to submit?

    I think it might be an “all of the above” type strategy.

    1. Starve Feminism – do not date or marry women who believe in feminism or display feminist tendencies even if they deny being a feminist. But out idea of starving feminism is different than the MGTOW stave feminism. MGTOW would starve the good with the bad. MGTOW is really a “starve women”, not just “start feminism” because they see these two as almost synonymous since they blame non-feminist women for not fighting hard enough against feminist women.

    2. Persuade Against Feminism – We cannot just refuse to marry feminist women. That is not enough. We must at the same time publicly speak out against the dangers of feminism and make “feminist” a bad word that no woman wants to be called. We need to make need to make the word “feminist” as nasty as the word “whore”. We need to speak not only to our daughters and sons, but also our young neighbors and others teach them while feminism claims to be fighting for equality and justice for women it actually promotes the decimation of the marriage the family and morals of society.

    3. Expect Feminism to Submit I am not sure exactly what you meant by this but I will just say how I interpret this.

    I see this in two ways. Once is on a larger societal level I believe that eventually feminism will collapse under its own weight as a failed system just as communism even collapses. It is an unsustainable system because it leads to the extremely low fertility rates which eventually destroy nations. So at some point women’s rights will have to sharply curtailed when the world see its population dying out because of women’s free choices. So in that larger sense feminist women will have to submit to a system which takes away their man-given rights that God never gave them.

    On the other hand, I could see this concept applying individual marriages in our current culture. There are four ways today that a man could find himself married to a feminist wife:

    A. He married her knowing full well that she was a feminist but did not know feminism was wrong. Later he is exposed to Biblical gender roles and realizes he must take the lead in his marriage.
    B. He married her knowing full well that she was a feminist but thought because she was a Christian he could teach her and help her to realize it is wrong.
    C. He married her having absolutely no idea she was a feminist, she hid it well and said she embraced male headship and the Biblical model of marriage.
    D. He married a woman that was raised to believe in male headship and the Biblical model of marriage, but she ends up being converted to feminism by others after marriage.

    In any of these 4 cases the question is – should a Christian husband force his feminist wife to submit? The answer is absolutely yes! But he can only do within the tools God has given him. He can use the methods I have prescribed on the blog such as in my article https://biblicalgenderroles.com/2015/10/03/7-ways-to-discipline-your-wife/ to try to convince her to submit. Now are there some women that will stubbornly resist even when all these methods are applied? You bet they will. My wife is one of them.

    I was a letter “B” type Christian husband from above. After my divorce from my first wife I wanted to marry someone very different that my first wife. I met my first wife in church and she wanted to follow the traditional gender roles and be a stay at home wife and mother. What I found over time was while she acted the part, she was extremely lazy and just wanted to go shopping and doing anything other than taking care of the needs of our home. She was not really that intelligent either. She would put on the the submissive act but really she was not as submissive as she thought she was. She had a princess mentality and wanted me to treat her as such.

    So when I got divorced I wanted to find a woman who was the polar opposite(for better or for worse). So I ended up dating a Christian woman who was a nurse. She was very involved in her church and seemed to have good Christian character. She was highly intelligent. She was hard working at her career. She was indeed the polar opposite of my first wife. But she was also raised in a moderately feminist home. They were not the “I am a feminist – here me roar type”. Her mother and sisters would never be in parade of feminists. My second wife, while we were dating even told me she believed the husband was the head of the wife and the house. But she also in the same breath would say thought women needed to be independent through education and having a careers and she very much believed in women’s equality with men. I soon found that her and I were constantly in some competition for who was the smartest and my wife placed most of her value in her intelligence. Once while we were dating she told me “The only difference between a man and woman is what is between their legs”. So she believed in supposedly believed in submission, but she vehemently believed in equality of the sexes.

    I naively thought because she was a Christian and loved the Lord and the Bible that I could just teach her. I would mold her over time into the more submissive woman she thought she already was, and I thought I could help her be. Well I was mostly wrong. I have made some progress with her over the almost 9 years we have been married. But she is still a very strong willed woman and one day will be submissive and the next day slide right back into her stubborn, competitive and feminist tendencies. So it really is a constant battle and I think I will be fighting this battle with her for the rest of my life.

    But for better or for worse, this is the woman that God has placed me with and I accept my duty as her husband to continually attempt to force her feminist tendencies into submission.

  37. What a Christian Masculinist does is he enters the fight headlong. He does his battle planning and seeks to navigates the mine field of feminist women to find that precious jewel of a woman who is a conservative, Bible believing, virgin woman. But even then he knows she is sinner just like he is. So he knows even with this woman he will have do battle in his marriage against both his own sin nature as well as hers. He will have to fight the poisonous clouds of feminism that try to infect his home every day. It will be a battle he must fight the rest of his life.

    Was man created for the purpose of battling woman? Was woman created to be the perfect opponent to man? Certainly not. Of course the situation has been less than ideal since sin entered into the world. But marriage is supposed to be a blessing.

    The wives similarly are to be grave, not adversaries, sober, faithful in all things. 1 Timothy 3:11

    Your wife is not to be your adversary! If you cannot find a woman like this, don’t get married. It is not a man’s duty to enter headlong into marriage as a fight.

    Wiscot’s prenup sounds great, but it wouldn’t hold up in an American courtroom. Still, as a model for correct thinking, ideally, you would find a father-in-law who agrees with it and has reared his daughter to agree. You find a church who agrees. At the very least you find a woman who is teachable, and who you will lead to agree.

    What fraction of American women come from that background, are truly regenerate, and will do you good and not evil all the days of your life? I daresay 1/1000 is overly optimistic. On the other hand, the man who understands this and will require this is likely nearly as rare.

    Be careful who you fall in love with…

  38. Please do not publish this comment. Much as I enjoy your blog, I will no longer be commenting. Being called a troll because I disagree is a deal-breaker.

    God Bless.

  39. Thank you for your kind words. I was just startled by what appears to be unwarranted hostility. I believe my manner of commenting was respectful and that it is not too much to expect the same in return.

  40. @Amn1 I personally think a prenup is a great idea. My husband and I entertained the idea of signing one prior to our marriage. You should only be taking with you what you brought into the relationship or what you personally worked for during the duration of the marriage. Divorce ushers in legalized theft and in most cases it is only beneficial to the ex wife. I don’t think a man should EVER marry a woman who wouldn’t even consider signing a prenup. If she’s not considering signing one then she’s already thinking about the possibly of taking what you have in the future.

  41. Daniel,

    In his perfection God created man for the purpose of imaging him. That means living out his attributes, his nature.
    He created woman as helper to man, some that would share a common human nature but yet would have a very different kind of human nature than what man has. She was made to compliment him and be his crown and bring him glory.

    But sin entered the picture and changed all that. Now instead of wanting to be his subordinate helper, woman would desire to control man. She would rebel against his leadership when God designed her to need his leadership and embrace it. Instead of showing him respect, the woman would show her husband disdain.

    God tells us what happened after the fall:

    “Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
    Genesis 3:16

    A lot of people wrongly see “thy desire shall be to thy husband” as some wonderful thing where the woman would love and desire her husbands leadership and protection. Not so. Notice this other passage of Scripture and in the Hebrew the phrasing is almost identical:

    “If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him.”
    Genesis 4:7

    God used the exact same language when speaking to Eve and saying her husband would rule over her and to Cain about his sin nature and he should rule over it. God was telling Eve – “Because of your sin nature – instead of submitting your husband and serving him as I made you to do – you will desire to control him. But he shall rule over you.

    So no – God did not create man for the purpose of battling woman. But he did create man to image him. And part of imaging God is when a man battles sin in whatever form it takes. Whether that is sin within out own lives as men or sin within the lives of our wives.

    I am not sure what translation you took I Timothy 3:11 from but this is how the KJV renders it:

    “Even so must their wives be grave, not slanderers, sober, faithful in all things”
    I Timothy 3:11

    The word slander is translating the word “Diabolos” which is translated as “devil” most of the time in the New Testament. Only a few times it is translated as false accuser or slander because this a euphemism for the devil.

    Your Statement:

    “Your wife is not to be your adversary! If you cannot find a woman like this, don’t get married. It is not a man’s duty to enter headlong into marriage as a fight.”

    But lets examine my statement a little closer – I talked about 3 different kinds of battles.

    1. The battle to find a good wife in an evil world poisoned by feminism“What a Christian Masculinist does is he enters the fight headlong. He does his battle planning and seeks to navigates the mine field of feminist women to find that precious jewel of a woman who is a conservative, Bible believing, virgin woman”.

    2. The battle a man must wage against his own sin nature when he is married. Some examples would be sometimes he might be angry at his wife without cause and take things out on her. If so he needs to apologize to her. But other times his sin might be in failing to lead or to speak out against something she want to do or wants him to do that is wrong.

    3. The battle against his wife’s sin nature. A husband is responsible for to correct and rebuke his wife’s sinful nature just as Christ does his church (Revelation 3:19). A husband is also required to wash his wife’s spiritual spots and wrinkles with the Word of God as Christ does his Church(Ephesians 5:25-27).

    The Bible tells us we are in a constant spiritual state of spiritual warfare and if you think that ends at the door of your marriage you are sorely mistaken my friend.

    “But I see another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of sin which is in my members.”
    Romans 7:23

    “And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.”
    Matthew 10:36

    “For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.”
    Ephesians 6:12

    So yes Christian men God calls us to fight for what is right and fight against feminism. In marriage he calls us to fight against our own sin nature as well as our wife’s sin nature.

  42. @Alice You mentioned that your husband physically disciplines you. I feel confident in saying that the majority of women would be far more submissive if this were a common practice in most households. I was just discussing this topic with my older coworker the othet day. She claimed this was pretty common amoung husbands and wives when she grew up. I asked her why nobody did anything to stop it and she pretty much just told me it was legal/normal unless the abuse got extreme. This made me wonder if “submission” was only more common back then mainly because the laws were different. Does that even count as submission when it has to be forced in such a way? Does the bible grant such forms of forced discipline towards a wife? I’m honestly asking, I’m not even trying to come off as judgmental.

  43. Whoops excuse the spelling errors. I’m on my phone and I didn’t proof read very well. I don’t see any edit options.

  44. @sunny, I don’t think of it as forcing submission, any more than BGR’s 7 ways to discipline your wife is forcing submission. The bible does grant the husband to physically discipline his wife, BGR has an article here that explains it better than I could.

    In any case, given that I live in the US, my husband cannot force me to submit to physical discipline. So submitting to that is just another level of submission, if you know what I mean.

  45. BGR, I confess that I overstated my case to make a point, and I appreciate your response. Marriage can be difficult, and we face opposition from the flesh. It is in every woman’s fallen nature to vie for power over her husband and it must be dealt with in gentle instruction, admonition and chastening.

    Matthew 10:36 is certainly talking about unbelievers in a man’s household being his enemies. This could be anyone – his parents, children, wife, other relatives, or servants. We see this happen often when a man is converted to Christianity and his unbelieving family members hate it, and even reject him.

    Since this post is about MGTOW, I think it should be clear that God is not calling Christian men to marry any woman that will do him more harm than good. A godly wife is a blessing, a helper and a friend. She should not be considered a foe. She is a sinner under your charge, and that will require conflict if you love her with a sanctifying love.

    Faithful are the wounds of a friend – Proverbs 27:6 KJV

    (I usually use the Concordant Literal Version of the Bible, which consistently translates diabolos as “adversary.”)

  46. @Alice, it does? I had no idea. I’ve never heard of the bible encouraging physical discipline other than with children. I thought that generally in occurrences like this (at least in modern day) it was more “kink” based and less biblically founded/encouraged. I guess I could be wrong though. I thought physical discipline was discouraged in the article you mentioned. I read that article it talked about very harmless and subtle concepts like taking away a debit card.

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out /  Change )

Google photo

You are commenting using your Google account. Log Out /  Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out /  Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out /  Change )

Connecting to %s

This site uses Akismet to reduce spam. Learn how your comment data is processed.