This article has been updated and moved to my new site dedicated exclusively to the topic of sexuality from a Biblical perspective. You can find the updated version here.
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Biblical Gender Roles 
And yes, I do actually have a heart for women in pain, but the majority that I see are so caught up in their own selfishness, that they have an almost “false” pain that they are bringing on themselves. It’s unnecessary pain that they have actually been causing in some way. There are very few women that are actually in abusive marriages, and the ones in “bad” marriages often just don’t know how to relate to their husband in a respectful way that would get him to alleviate some of their emotional pain. It’s really complicated, but in our society, unfortunately, a lot of the problems now-a-days are caused by the wife.
So that means that A LOT more men are suffering for real, at the hands of their wives. And yet the wives often believe that they aren’t the problem. So hopefully you can see that this does tip the balance in the direction of more men being in real pain and being sinned against than women currently. A good book to read that may open your eyes to this mass problem with women and selfishness (which causes so much pain for men) would be “The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands” by Dr. Laura. It is just insane the entitlement and self-centeredness that is seen by women today. And yes, this does mean that more men are hurt. I definitely do care about women who are in pain, but my focus is often to get them to do something about helping their marriage. It’s not my place to write a blog on direction for what men should do – so maybe that’s why you see me this way, but it’s not my place to confront husbands on their sins.
Dragonfly,
I do have to ask this. What would you tell a man who was angry that his wife was denying him sex because she was in chronic pain and dying of cancer? I do think that you made the right move with the wife. It wasn’t her husband’s fault. He likely did regret that he couldn’t have sex with her anymore, and her lack of sacrificial love probably made him feel even worse about it, which wasn’t what he needed as he was dying. But would you see a man in a similar situation who complained about sexual denial as selfish?
Yes, I would. But I’ve seen similar cases like that, where the husband is the caregiver, and they don’t seem to mind the sacrificial love part. They may miss it, but they don’t go around complaining and looking for pity-parties, they’re usually busy care-taking and just getting through it! I know this sounds sexist, but men really do seem to be more sacrificial, they put up with way more crap from their wives for longer amounts of time that a wife would put up with the same treatment if it was turned around on her, and they will stay in a sexless marriage much longer than a typical wife will (practically dying in it for lack of sex, they’ll still stay with her).
Dragonfly, it seems like anytime a woman tries to show a man any kind of sin is something that you disagree with. And that’s fine, but that is something that we will have to disagree on. I greatly appreciate your desire to respect your husband and I know that my husband sees that same desire in me (and actually approves the comments I make here before I post them and has told me to change wording around occasionally).
I am not mocking the pain that Jeff, Jonadab, and tons of other men face either as a result of feminism or entirely different. As a nurse, and honestly just as a woman, I don’t like to see people suffering and if I can do something about it, I try. But at the point where these men are, albeit completely unintentionally, being a stumbling block to women that I care about (in a way that I wouldn’t expect you to care for them about, or even perhaps totally understand), it becomes much harder to ignore. Jeff can insult me all he wants and I don’t really give a crap. At the point where my sister reads what he says and says “see how Christian men, the supposed model of Christ, feel and treat women”, it has become a serious problem. Granted I have a much more personal interest in my sister becoming saved than you do, but i hope that you can at least understand why I care about her so much.
I do not claim to know the extent to which marital issues are caused by women rather than men, but I can definitely agree that from what I have personally witnessed (including sexual problems in my own marriage) that the majority are caused by the wives. Sometimes I wonder why certain men chose such low-quality women, but I know that a lot of the time it wasn’t a problem they could have seen coming.
I am sure that the problems I have faced with men in the past were somehow brought on by me and the resultant pain is therefore caused by me. Maybe if the Lord continues to tarry, that will somehow make sense to me.
The absolute greatest example of pain and redemption that I have seen is in Rwanda where I had the chance to visit a little over 2 years ago. These people have faced more hurt than anybody reading this blog is likely to ever suffer (although I do hate comparing pain as different people handle pain differently). They don’t expect people to walk on egg shells around them or give them a free pass for sin. Their story behind the Village of Reconciliation is one of the greatest testaments to the work of the Lord that I have ever seen.
@Dragonfly,
I haven’t seen too many cases of caretaker spouses in my lifetime, so I can’t comment too much on who does better in those situations. I know that an old neighbor of mine has managed to balance working to support her family, taking care of her kids, and taking care of her husband in the years since he’s been badly disabled from an accident. I don’t know what their sex life is like though. I also know that my aunt’s been the main breadwinner in her marriage since her husband hurt his back thirty years ago and lost the ability to continue doing the job that he had at the time. She’s taken care of him when his pain got bad, done most of the house care and childcare, and worked as a nurse all that time. Now, in her case, he could get other careers and make more money so that she would have to work less or not at all, but he’s mainly either been unemployed or worked dead-end jobs since then. And she’s dealt with that for thirty years. Then there’ve been a couple of women who’ve commented on this blog who’ve dealt with ten, fifteen, and in one case even close to twenty years of sexual denial from their husbands, who weren’t disabled or unable to have sex. (And it’s been for most of the marriage.) It’s not as though there aren’t men who don’t deal with similar things–there are. But it’s unfair to say that women are incapable of being sacrificial or dealing with bad marital situations.
To add, I know that you’re not saying that all women are incapable of being sacrificial or coping with genuine bad treatment from husbands who are failing in one or more of their biblical duties as husbands. It’s more that I’ve seen severe failures from both husbands and wives among my family and my friends. In those cases, it’s definitely true that those men and women might not have failed so much if their spouse had been better at headship or at submission, but I think that at the end of the day, men and women are responsible for their own failures. Yes, their spouse is still at fault for being a stumbling block and should repent of that sin, but it doesn’t excuse them. If Michelle’s husband was denying her because she’d denied him before or been disrespectful before, then he’d still be wrong. I fully understand why he’d be doing that, but how often do we hear of women denying their husbands sex because their husbands genuinely don’t talk to them or have been sexually selfish to the point where they’ve made sex extremely unenjoyable for their wives or have been intensely critical of their appearance to the point where they feel self-conscious? Yes, their denial might be understandable in those circumstances, but it’s still wrong.
“Sometimes I wonder why certain men chose such low-quality women, but I know that a lot of the time it wasn’t a problem they could have seen coming.”
Most are simply not taught as boys and young men, how and what to look for. Most are taught absolutely nothing about vetting the character of a woman and seeing what she thinks about different things before marriage. Some have told me that were even encouraged to go after women that were going to be terrible wives (their moms chased away the truly good, submissive ones and wanted them to pursue certain ones that had attitude problems from the get go). They are taught from early on that all women are to be treated as princesses… which creates problems later on when they don’t know how to stand up to their wife (or girlfriend) and demand to be treated with respect when she’s verbally abusing him.
“At the point where my sister reads what he says and says “see how Christian men, the supposed model of Christ, feel and treat women”, it has become a serious problem. Granted I have a much more personal interest in my sister becoming saved than you do, but i hope that you can at least understand why I care about her so much.”
You can’t control other people’s actions, that is much too stressful (is emotionally unhealthy), and never works, especially online. If anything, I’ve only seen it drive people further away. You are still pregnant right? I don’t think it’s good to believe this is something you have to fight for and control. If anything, it’s BGR’s blog and it’s under his control how he moderates comments.
I know this may be awful to hear, but you aren’t responsible for how your sister comes to Christ either (and neither is Jeff). Only she has to make that decision on her own, and it needs to come without excuses like “hypocritical Christian men.” If she wants to use a stranger’s behavior, she doesn’t know, in an online forum, as an excuse to say “No,” to God, then there is nothing you can really do about that. It sounds like she would use anything to say “No,” to God, and that is something you have to accept, and stop blaming other people for her lack of desire to believe.
You can’t demand he act better so that your sister isn’t turned off by Christianity, that’s super controlling behavior by saying “it has become a serious problem.” And trying to explain that not all Christian men are like that will probably fall on deaf ears, she has to open her heart to God herself, irregardless of other people’s actions.
It is a shame that men, while they are still young, are not taught better. I do have to say that that kinda is more of a failing on fathers (the ones that are not pushed out of the picture by mothers or the court system). I’m sure it is possible to spin this too as something that wives are doing wrong, though.
I, nor anyone else, am in control of whether or not my sister becomes saved. I actually had this exact conversation with my husband earlier today when he wanted me to clarify something before I posted it. If she continues to reject Christ because of the actions/words of some men, that is indeed her error and should she spend eternity in Hell, she has only herself to blame for it. Doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t try to make things easier. Mean, we are called to be good witnesses to the watching world. Honestly, use the exact same logic you mentioned with men when it comes to marriage. If men reject marriage because of the actions of some women, that is their fault only and saying “not all women are like that” isn’t likely to help any. Or does that not work that way????
This is the only time on any blog that I have tried to confront anyone on how they come across in comments (kinda soon to imply i’m trying to run BGR’s blog for him). And it honestly isn’t just about my sister. Sure that’s what makes it personal for me, but I’m guessing she’s not the only one turned off by it. Not to mention that some people are honestly not aware of how they come across until someone points it out.
I am still pregnant. 35 weeks and counting! Baby shower this weekend and than just counting down time. 12-hr work shifts are getting much more tiring, but I’m almost there. 🙂
“I am still pregnant. 35 weeks and counting! Baby shower this weekend and than just counting down time. 12-hr work shifts are getting much more tiring, but I’m almost there.:)”
Take it easy!!! Seriously!!! My first came a month early because I was super stressed out and in a stressful job with an insane boss. You’re going to have so much fun and wonderful things coming after the baby comes, and a lot of sleep loss and if you’re breast-feeding, it’s a little hard the first time – they say it takes 4-6 weeks to actually “get it,” and then it’s easier. So you’re going to be really really busy!
“If men reject marriage because of the actions of some women, that is their fault only and saying “not all women are like that” isn’t likely to help any. Or does that not work that way????”
No it doesn’t help at all, because of the legal structure that’s in place that is unfair to men if they get married, it is a special risk. Quite a few married women they felt sure to “not be like that,” and she changed and ended up divorcing him. They married virgins that were young, and it still didn’t work out – and our society is set up for men to fail in marriage because of the attitudes it places in young girls (that become women), and the attitudes it places in young boys to cater to them in everything.
You may want to read some books about how unfair it is toward men in this society that way you maybe could see I’m not trying to be awful or bigoted, just stating the facts and why men have a right to be scared of marriage these days (at least, scared in the sense that they take care to do proper vetting and make sure she’s really a virtuous woman).
-The Proper Care and Feeding of Husbands
-The War Against Boys
-Raising Boys
-Bringing up Boys
These are all really wonderful authors, some were previous feminists, one is a feminist but can see things aren’t equal for boys/men, and there’s a lot of good research and examples in them. I only started to get really serious about reading more books like this when I knew we were having our first boy – and I’m SO GLAD we did!! Its helped our parenting so much better to know the different things in society that undermines masculinity, and to help him navigate through those situations successfully! I’m so sorry, I can’t remember if you’re having a boy (I think so right?), but if you are, it’d be great to take the time to read at least one of these (although the husbands book really is about marriage). But they will make you so sad, a little angry that society has gotten this bad, and then give you ways to practically help your son become a godly man that still has masculinity and hasn’t been feminized.
And sorry if I sound harsh, Anna, I know you’re an amazing woman – and believe me, I’ve tried confronting men on their sins online, it just doesn’t work and only incurs more abuse against you. Especially while this far along pregnant, you may want to avoid things like that, you never know how a stranger will respond (case in point, when I tried to confront that man, he escalated it dramatically, and then continued the harassment and slander for over 6 months!). Part of growing in our faith is learning how to handle someone like that with grace – you can’t change them, nothing you say will help the situation, so you have to give it over to God (not take vengeance yourself by calling him names or insulting him), and trust God to be able to defend you.
DragonFly,
There is a lot of hard truth in what you have said here. I understand where AnnaMS is coming from in that sometimes as believers we might not like what some Christians or some churches say or do and we feel their actions are an impediment to people coming to Christ. But really at the end of the day what is every person’s impediment to coming to Christ? It is sinful pride. It is “I don’t need you God”. It is “I am better than those people God”.
The best one we here most often is “The church is just full of hypocrites” but then what is that? That is just plain old self-righteousness.
Until a person comes to the point where they realize that they have “missed the mark” which is what sin is they can never be saved.
Sure as believers we can point out to unbelievers teachings or other actions we don’t believe are right. I do that all the time with my unbelieving friends.
I get emails from Christians every day on this blog telling me that I am impeding people coming to Christ talking about the things I talk about. They think the Church should only talk about the Gospel and leave everything else for people to find out on there own. But this wrong. We are to preach the whole counsel of God even if some of that counsel is offensive to people and it will be.
The real truth of the matter is this – preaching the Gospel and leading people to Christ is NOT our most important duty as Christians. Preaching the Gospel is and leading others to Christ comes AFTER our most important duty. Our most important duty is found Matthew 22:
The sad truth is that many churches today have taken the second greatest commandment Christ gave here in the next verse and have put it before the first commandment:
I can’t tell you how many churches(especially the larger churches) in my area have abandoned most of the teachings of Scripture in order to not offend people so they can bring in bigger crowds. Every sermon is a “make you feel good about yourself” sermon. If anything is remotely controversial or might offend non-believers or even professing believers they will not say it anymore.
Paul warned about these days when he wrote:
Is is not the church we see today?
Thanks Dragonfly. I’d love to take time off now, but i have limited maternity leave and want to spend it all with the baby rather than some before he is born. I used to work a lot of overtime, and I’ve cut back to where I only work a little over regular hours so it’s not as bad. My coworkers are very amazing and God has definitely blessed me.
I see what you’re saying about men and marriage. Honestly, I struggle knowing how to respond. I can’t advise men not to get married because 1: that’s extremely hypocritical of me as a married woman. 2: that’s very disrespectful to my husband as clearly he thinks that marriage is a good idea. 3: It goes against what Jesus teaches (outside of those who are called to a life of singleness like Paul). I can only encourage people to be as wise in the dating process as possible. Normally sexual sins as well as other sins like laziness will show up in the dating stage but there is no 100% guarantee. As much as I feel for men who have been and are being hurt in a marriage, my main goal is how to prevent this from happening to future men. And yes, a lot of that is for people like your sons and my own son who will likely grow up to want to marry a virtuous woman. I’m typically content being happy in my own marriage and encouraging other people to make their marriage as Godly as possible. But not sure how long I can stay that way with a son (and probably more) who will be at that stage before I know it.
I’d LOVE to see a discussion on ways to prevent issues like the ones we see so often on this blog (from both men and women). I’m more than willing to believe that 80% or whatever number of victims are men, but ultimately it doesn’t really matter to me who the majority is, it’s how to actually fix the problem. The overly-practical nurse side of me is probably showing right now. 🙂
<– I’d LOVE to see a discussion on ways to prevent issues like the ones we see so often on this blog (from both men and women).
We just had one.
I advocated we Christians follow the Bible on how to do marriage, that the church repent of their support of feminism and speak against it, that Christian wives submit to their husbands in all things, and with special emphasis on wives sexually submitting to their husbands, and then as they become the older women of the church, teach the younger women to do the same.
If you want more opportunities to reform and prevent modern problems, solutions in the civil sphere might include, work to change family law to be in harmony with the scriptures, reestablish male-only spaces, ban women from all positions in the military, eliminate no-fault divorce, criminalize fornication, repeal title IX, and move toward household voting.
AnnaMS,
I agree with you that even despite the “stacked deck” that now exists against men because of feminism the failure of the church to properly teach their members and parents to properly teach children we ought never to advice young men to avoid marriage because of this great risk. Remember just a while back I wrote on this very subject https://biblicalgenderroles.com/2016/02/18/is-marriage-too-big-a-risk-for-men/
Instead we need to educate them on warning signs and what to look for in women and that is one of the missions of I have in this blog.
This was one my first steps in trying to do just that:
https://biblicalgenderroles.com/2015/12/12/12-ways-to-transform-modern-dating-into-biblical-dating/
I do want to do some more specific things toward men in what to look for in women and women things to look for in men.
Even when a person seems to do their “homework” on the individual they are going to marry making sure they are a true believer and that they faithfully attended church and have a similar world view about family and marriage some people are just REALLY good at putting on an act.
But the end of the day marriage is a huge risk in our modern culture and even more so for men than for women.
In previous times when divorce was extremely rare couples just stayed together even if they could not stand each other because society frowned on divorce. But now society fully embraces divorce and actually makes it about easy as buying or selling a house. This when combined with feminism is what makes marriage such a HUGE risk.
I understand why some of my male friends who were married for years and were treated horribly can never trust a woman again. I understand some men don’t remarry at least until their children are gone because they don’t want to risk another divorce with their kids.
But I still think it is worth the risk as anything that is worthwhile in life is. I know for me my first marriage turned out horribly over time but you know what – I got 5 beautiful children out of it! And God taught me a lot and helped me to grow into a stronger person as a result of it.
AnnaMS,
Also Anna while Jonadab and I would agree on many civil reforms that could essentially “unstack the deck” against men in marriage I believe that while we are pushing for those reforms we must learn to navigate the current corrupt culture we live in. We men are “systemizers” as I have said many times on this blog. God has enabled us to look at systems(whether they be mechanical, economical, or social) and find ways to navigate them.
Now before you think I mean “men just need accept how things are” that is not really what I am saying. I am saying we need to teach men NOT to accept the system – but navigate it to get try and get the best result in marriage they can. I will talk more what I mean in upcoming articles.
@Jonadab,
I see the logic behind those reforms. My only worry is the potential consequences of criminalizing fornication. This does give women an extra incentive to claim rape. Unless what you mean is that we should follow a more OT model where a man who fornicate with a single women either has to marry her or pay a fine while the young woman has to agree to marry him or make some form of restitution to her father. Maybe she has to work to pay off some sort of fine as well?
Basically, the benefit is that people know that sex outside of marriage leads to a serious commitment, which will make them think more carefully about their actions, and there is potential for biblical damage control.
BGR, and Jonadab, I actually agree with both of you a lot here. While I think there are a lot of things that we can and should try to do to ‘unstack the deck’, I am more concerned about how to 1: navigate it currently (and BGR, I don’t at all see that as men just needing to be satisfied with the current environment…I’d argue that Christian women, especially mothers of sons or really any woman that cares about men should not be satisfied with the current environment even if they don’t face the same personal risk), and 2: how to fix it on an individual level.
For example, I have always compaigned for and voted for pro-life candidates, and we still have abortion as legal. I don’t plan on changing how I vote, but I do see the benefits of reaching out to one woman at a time and convincing her to choose life. And who knows, it might create a ripple effect.
So I guess when I was saying that i’d love to see a discussion on how to prevent marriage stories like the ones we see on this blog, I was meaning on a more individual basis, and I should have been more clear on that. Sure I’d love to see the church make sweeping reforms, but I’m also not going to hold my breath. My husband and I are managing to have a good marriage in the midst of so much spiritual chaos, and if in 20ish years, the chaos is still there, I want my son to have that same chance. I DON’T want to rest his future happiness on the church reforming (and I get that his future happiness rests in God, but please don’t miss my point here).
I absolutely understand people (especially men) who struggle with trusting women after being hurt in a marriage, and I can understand why some give up entirely and choose never to put themselves in that situation again. But I think that they need to keep from exaggerating the doom and gloom of women. Absolutely men should be wise and aware of the terrible women out there (good men have been warning other men of such women since back in OT days as seen in the Psalms and Proverbs). This is something I really struggled with after my attempted kidnapping. I was terrified of men, looked on all strangers (including fellow Christians) as potential threats, and absolutely refused to be outside in the dark by myself even if it was in a safe area (like walking from my car to my college dorm). While that was a reasonable reaction and I needed to give myself time to deal with my fears, I really needed to make sure I wasn’t trying to convince other women that all men were rapists and kidnappers just waiting for the moment to strike. I did however, use it to encourage proper safety measures for my friends. So there’s a definite fine line there.
Anna, you say this, “So I guess when I was saying that i’d love to see a discussion on how to prevent marriage stories like the ones we see on this blog, I was meaning on a more individual basis, and I should have been more clear on that. ”
and yet you feel like I only care about men and their pain (!!!!). LOL… Anna, the majority of my blog is devoted to creating discussions that will prevent problems like this!! Even right now I’m in the middle of spending many hours of my free-time trying to write for women and intentionally targeting women who are in painful marriages. This series will probably take 9-10 weeks!!! And I’ve already had requests to flesh it out to be longer (which is equal parts wonderful and daunting)! Saying I “don’t care” about women, when I’m spending so much of my time writing to and for them, is offensive because its disregarding everything I’m doing right now, and I think you either meant it to be offensive, or didn’t care if it would come across that way (subconsciously), just like you knew, to some degree, that telling the men they were bitter or whining would also more than likely offend them. We know when we’re sayign something that will probably offend someone. You thought the offense would be justified in that you want to “help” them get over it already… what if I had acted like that with that woman with the dying husband? It would not have helped her, but would only have served to make her angry with me and offended, even if I was partially right. Really, I think this behavior (saying something you know will probably offend someone) comes from anger when we try to control people (so that your sister wouldn’t see their behavior or thoughts).
The first thing you learn when writing a blog to help fix marriages, is that you can’t and shouldn’t say whatever you feel about them. You can’t shame the men who are still having a hard time with their marriage or with the way their wife treats them. That doesn’t work with women either, (in fact, you may make women even more offended with these words!) in general, shaming them for “bitterness” or “whining,” doesn’t work because you’re invalidating their experience and pain. They may not be at a place spiritually in order to be confronted with that, so you have to take a much gentler approach. You have to have a lot more self-control and learn how to speak a little more diplomatically so that you don’t completely shut people down or cause them more pain by saying they shouldn’t still be bitter or “whining,” when they’re still being sinned against, with no end in sight.
“but ultimately it doesn’t really matter to me who the majority is, it’s how to actually fix the problem.”
To me and many others, the practical thing to fix this problem, is that we have to focus on fixing what is hurting men (the majority) in this society and in marriage. Trying to say the majority doesn’t matter, is highly unpractical to fixing a problem that is effecting the majority!!! And yes, this means we have to focus a big part on how wives sin against their husbands, because like Jeff and Jonadab said (that you took offense to and started attacking them about), the wives are getting a constant free pass from churches and preachers and Christian friends everywhere. They have no incentive to change at the moment, in general, because of this major problem.
So part of fixing this marriage crisis, is working on the WIVES’ attitude and them becoming truly virtuous women, who love to do their husbands good not evil, all the days of their lives. It’s focusing on helping women learn to not sin so much against their husbands. That’s not taking “the men’s side,” it’s just confronting the real issue head on. If the majority are men being affected by their wive’s selfishness and sins, then we need to confront the ways wives are sinning with practical things that can help them realize it and change. Ignoring the majority, because you said “it doesn’t matter,” sounds a lot like what the feminists think (that men’s issues don’t matter, even if they are the majority having problems right now). It is very wrong and actually cruel. We need to try to see the sexes equally, part of that is being able to admit when it’s become unequal (the majority being hurt being men) and then looking for a solution that may look “unequal” to some people out of touch, but it’s practical because it’s going to re-establish the “equality” between them (meaning it won’t be out of balance anymore). This is what those authors are able to see, and that’s why they write about the war on boys/men. Women and the feminization of society, is what has caused this, the attitudes many women have – have caused this. So fighting for men’s rights isn’t “taking men’s side,” it’s trying to re-establish a society that VALUES men again. Hopefully this makes sense.
And just to be clear, I get misjudged a lot, so I’m not really offended at what you said, just wanted to point out how it doesn’t make sense, and how saying something like that, just like calling the men whiny or bitter, isn’t really helpful in relating to people. At least, not if you really want to help them 🙂
Dragonfly, I have absolutely no idea what in the world offended you in my last comment. I’m completely at a loss here. When I said earlier that it seemed like you only care about men’s pain, was probably because when I started mentioning pain in my life, your response was that “these men have REAL pain” (as opposed to my fake ones??? idk).
There isn’t a whole lot (if any) that I can do for men like Jeff and Jonadab. My main goal here is to keep my son from being in a similar situation. I feel sorry for men in these situations, but I’m not going to pretend that my main concern isn’t for another person. So while wide reforms would be great, and while articles about how to deal with sexual denial can be helpful (even if not everybody agrees with all the particulars), prevention is my main concern here.
So I’m very interested when people share about concerns they ignored in the dating stage or things that they would have done differently over again. Missionary to Mexico’s comments have a lot of good advice on things he would have done differently, and BGR has commented on feminist concerns he saw in his wife that he ignored because he knew she would be faithful to him which was particularly important after his first marriage. Am I hoping that my son can learn vicariously? Sure, but I don’t think that’s a bad thing. Do you not want the same for your sons????
“Dragonfly, I have absolutely no idea what in the world offended you in my last comment. I’m completely at a loss here.”
Yes, I know, that’s why I think it’s interesting that you would say things that most people know would be offensive to others, and then try to pretend like they shouldn’t be offended. Calling men in pain “bitter” or “whiny” like you did is going to make them offended, telling someone you think they don’t care about women’s pain and only care about men’s, when they do a whole blog devoted to writing to women, is offensive. Understanding how to react with other commenters in appropriate ways is beneficial, instead of resorting to attacking them based on how you perceive them… which destroys the conversation.
” When I said earlier that it seemed like you only care about men’s pain, was probably because when I started mentioning pain in my life, your response was that “these men have REAL pain” (as opposed to my fake ones??? idk).”
Yes, I did choose to ignore your comment about your past, because I know I’ve already talked about that with you and have sympathized greatly. I chose to stay on topic on the subject of men’s pain here because:
1) You’re already healed from your pain, you say so a lot on this blog that you’ve gotten over it. So you shouldn’t need people like me to validate it constantly when I already have. If you’re really healed, you shouldn’t have to bring it up to get others’ sympathy.
2) You were attacking these men here, and comparing their situation and spiritual growth to your own, which is a self-righteous attitude and prideful. You were literally saying that since you’ve been able to get over it and move on and get married, that they should be able to, too. You can’t compare your pain and your situation in the past to someone else’s. Plus, you are healed, they haven’t been yet, and they may not be at a place yet to where they can receive that healing. You sounded like this when you brought up your past history, “These men are bitter and whiny, why can’t they be more like MEEE and be whole and healed already!? They need to become more Christ-like right now, on MY timetable! My sister is watching… JEEZ! I didn’t let bitterness get to me and affect my future because I’m perfect and do everything right – they need to learn from me and be better Christians so they aren’t destroying others’ faith!” Using your history in the way you did, wasn’t a plus for you in relating to me or to them.
3) You were calling them whiny and bitter when they are in the middle of being sinned against (at least, Jeff is it seems). I’ve read a quote that “You are never more tempted to sin than when you’re being sinned against.” These men are currently being sinned against by their wives. They will feel huge temptations to become bitter or angry (and some of the anger is actually valid even if it makes you uncomfortable). What you did, would be like if you were involved with an abusive husband right now, and telling us how hard it is or going through a period of bitterness, and I just told you that you sounded bitter and whiny and that you should get over it already and get a better Christ-like attitude now! It wouldn’t work, but it would definitely offend you! It’s just inappropriate and rude honestly, we can’t talk to people like that and expect to help them at all. So instead of sympathizing again with your past pain that you’ve allegedly gotten over already (and that I’ve already sympathized with!!!), I chose to just ignore it because it was self-righteous to be comparing yourself to them in that way.
“There isn’t a whole lot (if any) that I can do for men like Jeff and Jonadab.”
There really isn’t except for being kind and allowing BGR to rebuke them if needed.
” My main goal here is to keep my son from being in a similar situation.”
It looked like your main goal was policing BGR’s blog on this post, and trying to shame and control men’s responses to being in bad marriages.
” Do you not want the same for your sons????”
A main reason why I started this series was to help myself understand how to help my sons find a virtuous woman. So yes, prevention is important, but attacking or shaming the men who married bad women isn’t the answer, trying to silence them or compare your healing process to their’s isn’t helpful.
AnnaMS,
Let me try to make an attempt to narrow down what I “think” DragonFly has been trying to communicate with you.
Her blog(as does mine) focuses more on the evils of feminism and the sins of women toward their husbands than it does on the sins of men toward their wives. But this is not to say that either one of us(me or DragonFly) think that men don’t sin against women as was the case of horrible things that happened in your life. I know this first hand because what I have been told about how my great grandfather sexually abused my mother and I know of other women personally who have been abused by men in other ways.
But Dragonfly for the most part feels her ministry is toward women and leaves the teaching of men to male Christian bloggers like myself and others for the most part.
Even on my blog where I do speak toward men and how they should treat their wives from a Biblical perspective I will admit that my material is not 50/50 equally spread toward men and women. The reason for that(and DragonFly and I would agree on this) is because I believe that in our current era the sin of women against their husbands and marriage itself is so much greater than that of men. But at the same time I do tackle things for women like when they are sexually denied by their husbands or when they are married to deadbeats.
And while I do try to help women on this blog with how to handle deadbeat husbands or truly physically abusive situations my blog for the most part has become a hospital for hurting men. The vast majority of my emails are from hurting men and a much smaller amount are from hurting women.
So I think what Dragonfly was trying to say is that when we use words like “whiny” and “bitter” toward hurting men it basically invalidates their hurts. If you bring up the horrible things that men have done to you(which I agree were horrible and I am sorry they happened to you) in some ways it might sound like you are saying “Well I have been treated horribly by men in my life and you guys have been treated horribly by women and you don’t see me whining and being bitter about it”. I think that is what DragonFly was trying to say is these kinds of words are counter productive to helping these men.
Well that is my attempt once again to bridge the gap.
Yes, BGR, you summed up what I’m trying to say almost better than I did. Sorry to make you feel like you have to mediate 😦
@Dragonfly,
You’re absolutely right about how you’re much more likely to sin while you’re being sinned against. Thank you for that perspective. You’ve helped me feel a lot more empathy and compassion here. Now, I didn’t read Anna’s statements to mean that she thought that Jeff, Jonadab, or any other man being sinned against by his wife needed to forgive his wife or needed to stop feeling bitterness or anger towards her. I took her statement as warning them against become bitter against all women and assuming that all women were like their wives. However, your point is still good. It is easier to attack everyone in a group when one person from that group wrongs you and when you see many people from that group wronging others.
@ Alex and Anna
I can only speak for myself, but I view women and feminism separately, the former are jmy daughters, mother and wife, life givers and nurturers of children and the latter is pattern of sinful thought. My rebuke of feminism is a rebuke also of men especially pastors who have allowed the masculine virtue of protecting women, to occlude the duty to condemn the sins of women and focus exclusively on the sins of men, even becoming enablers and encouraging of the sins of women. (I have some personal experience with this; let’s just say it has given me opportunity to have fellowship with the sufferings of Christ.) How can women repent to righteous living when the pastor’s and ministry leaders are telling women to drink deeply of feminist rebellion. I for one am mostly unaffected by words like whinny and bitter, I have at this point in my life a blackbelt in rejection.
Dragonfly, I’m not sure what your cow is right now. Seriously, I thought we had gone back and forth a few days ago and had moved on only for you to blow up again today. If it’s still bothering you that some people find certain comments to be whiny (justified or otherwise), maybe take a step back cuz it really isn’t about you at this point. If you really think that I think myself to be a perfect person, than that is your error and there is nothing I can do to convince you otherwise. It is absolutely to your shame that BGR had to come in and mediate after that monstrosity of a comment. Do you realize that I was actually AGREEING with you about how most problems in Christian marriages (and probably marriages in general) are caused by wives and I was trying to branch off of that agreement to find ways to help our sons? And that in response you completely blew up at me? If you really think that I have a higher priority in policing BGR’s blog than being a good mother to my son, than you are absolutely out of your mind. This is not the first time you have “misunderstood” a comment I have made and at this point I’m no longer convinced it will be the last. Kindly back off and stop attacking me.
BGR, I would hope that it wouldn’t be 50/50 here because that isn’t what your experience has been, and that’s not even what I’m looking for for my son. My son will have a fabulous father and plenty of other good role models in his life for how to become a good man and a Godly husband. Might he forsake all of that anyway? Perhaps. But in this day and age, I’m much more concerned with him knowing danger signs to avoid and while I can do my best to help him (and while my husband has some personal experience at this although not in a marital sense), there is nothing like real-life examples from men who have suffered in and through terrible marriages. Yes, it is also true that I don’t want him growing up thinking all women are terrible and to flee marriage like a plague, but it seems like we are in agreement on that.
Jonadab, I think you make a very important distinction there, although I might add ‘sinful action’ to sinful thoughts in your description of feminism. Unfortunately, I think our culture is at the point where feminism can no longer be destroyed in one fell swoop (except to the point that it becomes unsustainable d/t the complete biological ridiculousness of ignoring gender differences and roles).
You have much more experience with the ugly effects of feminism than I have (mine mostly being limited to ugly attitudes and false thinking that I can remain practically unaffected by to a large extent). So I am very interested in hearing what advice you would give to a Godly man contemplating marriage. While perhaps less an area of expertise for you, advice to that man’s mother would be very valuable as well (other than just not being a feminist obviously!). I realize our culture will not be the same in 20 years as it is now (and unfortunately feel like it will only get worse, but that could be my own pessimism) , but as Ecclesiastes says, there is nothing new under the sun. The sins we see in our culture have been there since the fall, they are just now much more accepted and downright enabled than they were in previous times.
Anna
I am raising three sons also. I am no expert, but I know the one who is. So I teach my sons the same things that King Lemuel’s mother taught her son in Proverbs 31 on finding the right wife. In fact I teach then the entire book of proverbs; there is great wisdom for sons, in fact most of the book is written as advice to sons.
The single most important thing I believe a mother can do is pray without ceasing, begging the Lord for mercy on your son. Plead with the lord and agonize on your knees, then trust that God is faithful and good to hear your prayers. The second most important thing you can do right now is to model what a woman of God looks like; being submissive to your own husband, even calling him Lord,pursuing personal virtue including meekness, a quite spirit without fear or doubting. They say a boy marries a woman that reminds him of his mother, make sure that what he sees in his mother is what God calls precious in a wife. Third build up his manhood. Give him opportunity to exercise responsibility and responsibility for the results. Give words of admiration for each bit of progress he makes in becoming a man of God. He will need to be a leader of his own home ask your husband to give him chances to lead the family in bible study and prayer, to fix the faucet and to protect his mother in public settings.
There is much, much more to write, but those are enough ideas for the moment.
Jonadab,
I understand your distiinction between gender and ideology, and I have seen this in your comments? I hope that this isn’t too personal a question. Have you reconciled with your wife and children since the events that you outlined in the post that BGR made about you? Your last comment made me hopeful that they’ve repented, and you all have come back together. If that’s not the case, I’m sorry for misunderstanding.
Thanks Jonadab! I had always heard that girls marry a man like their father, but I wasn’t sure if the same thing applied to men with their mothers. What a humbling thought and the reminder of our constant need for God’s grace.
Jonadab – do you have your own blog?
@ Alex & Ame
Thank you for questions. I am reluctant to share too much more here as I still feel the duty to protect my family and their reputation. However, that being said; I am still facing a grievous trial, but as a Christian I was not promised an easy life, but that the testing of my faith is more precious than gold. I strive daily to agape-love those who are forsaking me and cling to the promise that all things work out for good for who love the Lord and are called according to Is purpose. My Lord loved me when I was His enemy and now I have the opportunity to grow in Christ-likeness by loving those who have and are doing me harm. In this way I have fellowship with His sufferings. I do not like the agony of my situation, all I can do is be a man of God who keeps his vows and by grace loves without condition, all the while urging the church to repent of her errors towards feminist empowerment.
@ Ame I no longer have a blog. I could not give it enough time and I often came across whiny and bitter 😉
@Jonadab,
I am sorry that your trials are still continuing, but I am happy that God and your faith in Him are sustaining you. I hope that you continue to grow closer to Him and that your agape for those who are hurting you wins them over. I also wish you luck in your struggles against feminism on the Church.
Anna, explaining to you how I viewed your behavior and comments toward the men on this blog is not “blowing up at you,” or “attacking you,” its simply explaining why I ignored your comment about your past pain. If you didn’t want to know why, then you probably shouldn’t have asked (hint: I ignored your comment because discussing your past pain would have brought all those issues up and offended you more than likely). Its sad that you can’t learn anything from what I said in order to see how you comparing your history and pain to theirs, wanting them to be better right now for your sister’s benefit, and expecting them to be healed already is actually self-righteous and ugly behavior. Calling it self-righteous and ugly isn’t meant to attack you, or “blow up” at you, it is just a description of how I see your character in these comments. If it offends you, maybe you should consider working on it a little? Instead of harping on these men changing, why don’t you work on changing your approach to them to be more sympathetic and kind?
It is unfortunate that you viewed my comments that way. What I was actually saying was much more in tune with what Alex described (being overly down on marriage and women in general NOT how they are responding to their own current/past situations of which I know very little in particular). I don’t even know how likely it is to have full healing from personal situations to that extent this side of Heaven. I have had full healing emotionally from sexual abuse but from what I can tell, that is definitely a rarity and is all God’s grace. And I think it still affects me psychologically with the sexual struggles I had as well as confidence issues in general. I certainly haven’t fully healed from the attempted kidnapping (my husband has to repeatedly remind me not to judge complete strangers out of fear), so that certainly is not an expectation I have for them, nor would it be my place to judge even if I did reach full healing (as I said previously, different people deal with pain differently). It is just sad to see it generalized to the point that marriage and women in general are considered the enemy. Having said that, I do think it is possible to have sinful bitterness even when we’re not generalizing to other people/situations, but that is between individuals and God and wasn’t what I was trying to imply was there. Quite frankly, I have a lot of respect for people who tough it out in a difficult marriage rather than calling it quits. Not implying that divorce is always wrong, but in our divorce-happy culture, any attempt at healing or not giving up on a marriage is commendable.
Funny how when I describe how I see someone’s character I’m “policing” the blog, but when you do it, you’re probably just sharing your opinion. And when I call someone ‘whiny’ it’s ugly, but when you imply I care more about policing a blog than my own son, that’s all fine and dandy.
I still don’t know how all this happened. We had disagreed, and very strongly, but had moved on to talking about how wives are often the cause of marital issues and about my baby and pregnancy (and I did appreciate your concern and care you expressed there). Then I made a comment agreeing with you where I didn’t ask why you had ignored me previously (that was later) and you started in again. It took me and my husband by surprise.
How do I get my husband’s sex drive to increase? I’m really horny all day, but my husband only wants to have sex once a week, if that. It’s disappointing, because I thought marriage came with that added benefit. We’ve been married for five years now, and he still doesn’t want to have sex more than twice a week. I get that a lot of couples go through this, but I don’t know how to cure it myself. Is it okay to go out and buy toys? He’s not cheating on me (he works from home, it would be pretty obvious), he’s definitely heterosexual, he doesn’t even have a laptop to be sneaking porn, is loving and wonderful to me, and doesn’t have a very stressful job. It’s just a low sex drive, which he readily admits to. Is there anything wrong with pleasing myself every day until he wants something?
Kat,
Thank you for sending in your questions. I have responded to your questions in this post:
https://biblicalgenderroles.com/2016/05/11/how-should-a-christian-wife-deal-with-her-higher-sex-drive/
I enjoyed this article a lot. Felt like I had a chance to understand a mans needs when it comes to sex a lot better. I am not Christian and hope you can write for such a group to allow them this knowledge as well. I’m not married and still very much a virgin. My fiancé decided to inform me I am his wife not his girl friend and we have been working towards marriage and a future. While I intend to be with him forever I have informed him I have no intention of giving sex before we are legally married. Does this effect him badly?
My fiance is a good man, very loving and gives me the desire to submit to him. If he said not to do something it feels odd to do otherwise even when others say I don’t have to listen and give me weird looks. It becomes frustrating because I often say things like ” he said” or “he wouldn’t like” and it’s like talking to a wall with no understanding. I had every intention of not telling him no when it comes to sex (once married) however I also assumed that was just a form of submission. To see how greatly that would help him mentally and his energy just makes me understand more of what I’m giving him. I don’t see why it’s a sacrifice because a husband who knows his wife will give him what he needs and when he wants is a wife who doesn’t need to worry about others or wonder about her worth. At least that’s how I see it. I don’t have to worry about his consideration when it comes to sex I trust him at times to know my needs more then I do and still trust me when I disagree.
I think I’ll fish around your site and check out some of these genderroles a bit more. I have too much energy to sleep right now anyway.
Sorry about typos.
My husband sent one the articles that was written to me because we are at odds about oral sex. Well the root of the issue is my husband has made me feel that oral sex is his top priority. More than ME! I am very much attracted to him but I hurt when at times I don’t do it he makes me feel I am not enough. I have explained this to him over & over again & he still indirectly but directly demands he gets what he wants. He has even threatened to leave if I don’t do it. So needless to say this has caused a serious riff between us & it’s been going on for a very long time.
Any advice you can give would be extremely helpful.
Joy,
Your statement:
I think what you are doing is testing him and so wanting him to pass your test. Your know he wants oral sex each and every time. But you don’t like his demanding attitude about it. So you withhold because you want him to prove his love for you. You him to prove that he will still love you even if you don’t do oral sex. Some women even withhold normal intercourse to test their husband’s love for them.
So when you say you feel you are “not enough” in essence you are saying your husband is failing your test. You want him act exactly the same to you regardless of if have sex or have oral sex. He should be grateful for whatever he gets from you and really have the attitude that if he could never have sex again with you that just being with you would be enough.
That sounds romantic – but Joy let me tell you – that is bad thing to do. Stop testing your husband’s love for you. He may be selfish in some ways and if he threatening to leave you over this I don’t think that is right.
Here is my advice to you. Your husband does not have to demand that which you freely give. If you know this is important to him and you are fully capable of doing it – why would you withhold what you are capable of doing in some way to test his love for you? Stop testing him. What he is asking for is not sinful or evil and God has equipped you to do it. Sure you might not always feel like performing oral sex or really just having sex at all. But in life we are often called to do things we do not feel like doing.
I married the first submissive girl I met. I didnt know that I was searching for that but I could FEEL it as soon as we started dating. I felt the freedom from judgement and a huge boost in confidence and aggression that friends and family could see. sexually I could do whatever I wanted to her, no boundaries, no restrictions. This came with a huge responsibility not to hurt her emotionally, and to never leave her. I knew that she would have to explain all of the things I was doing to her to any future boyfriend or husband. I knew I was going to marry her very soon into our relationship. Her dad, knowing how she is, told me his one requirement to give me his daughters hand is a promise to never be unfaithful and to make her feel special. It has now been 14 years, and 12 of happily wedded bliss. On our wedding day we were speaking with her mom when she offered one piece of advice. She said the secret to a happy marriage is to leave your dignity/pride at the bedroom door. We were kindof shocked to hear that from an old fashioned lady like her mother but my wife looked her right in the eye and said “I know mom, you taught me well”. It is so true. As the husband I benefit so I may be biased.
Sex is actually fairly painful for my wife. She has never said flatout no, and absolutely never asked to stop before I am finished shes proud of that and basically wont let me stop or it would “ruin her record” lol. She has a saying or thing she says from time to time that “women have no idea what makes a girl good in bed is what she is willing to let her husband do, and how much pain she can take.” Feminists cant handle that concept but she wants to tell everyone but fears what people would say. Honesty and truth are not popular at this time in history.
I truly am blessed to have her in my life and I spend each day trying to make her the happiest girl on earth. I have never strayed nor had a wandering eye, because there is nothing missing, and no woman can do anything for me that I dont do anytime of the day or night. If I could tell the 22 year old version of me anything, it would be to find, and cherish a submissive woman. Now I know, that would be the number one trait I would be looking for.
The idea that what makes a woman good in bed is “how much pain she can take” is not biblical, in the least. It is also repugnant. It has nothing to do with feminism, but with basic biology. If sex is painful for a woman, than something is wrong, either with her or with her husband’s treatment of her.
@Alice “If sex is painful there’s something wrong”
I actually disagree with you on that. I’m not going to say if you should or should not continue sex if it’s painful (that is up to the individuals to decide). I will say from personal experience that painful sex doesn’t always mean there is something wrong. Sex can be painful at times with my husband. I’m not sure how else to put this but if a man is larger in the “southern region” then sex can and will be painful at times. Again, I’m not saying if a woman should or should not continue as that is a personal choice. Personally, for us there are times he will stop and other times where it doesn’t really matter or we will just change positions. That’s probay TMI but it’s true and I’m sure many women have dealt with it when their husbands are above average in size.
he has taken his blog down right now (i don’t know why – it’s an excellent blog), but if he puts it back up again, the author of https://doing-marriage-right.com/ is married to a woman who experiences pain with intercourse, and he addresses this quite extensively. overall,from memory – he says they have learned many other ways to enjoy sex (not excluding intercourse but not making it the be all to end all), coconut oil has decreased her pain significantly, and she often takes pain medication (motrin or something similar) after intercourse.
Sunny, my husband is also overly endowed. (and why on Earth do women think this is a good thing?!) He takes extra care and patience so that I very rarely experience pain. Not to mention, six babies have made their way through that passage and their heads were certainly much larger! I still maintain that if a woman is crying through the whole experience, the man is doing something wrong, or she has medical issues which should be addressed.
@Alice. You must understand that all women are different. I have one child via c-section. After a c-section the muscles swell and tighten up, that is “normal” after a c-section. My friend had the same problem, she approached a doctor about it and even her own doctor wasn’t concerned about the pain during intercourse. Basically she told her that is going to happen. I did cry the first time I had sex after my
c-section as I became virgin tight again. Yes, there are times that painful sex is link to medical conditions or reason for concern but most certainly not in ALL cases. If my husband and I are not intimate for a few weeks sex does become painful for me. This might not be the case for you, but you must understand that our bodies are not the same. If a woman waits longer periods of time between sex things tighten down there. Add in larger male size the act of slipping it in even hurts. I actually have been on the verge of crying because we waited two months inbetween sex. According to a medical professional that’s actually normal. Maybe your case is different because you’re sex life is more active and you’ve had children naturally but this is NOT the case for many women (myself included). Im.also in pain sometimes after exercising that doesn’t mean there is something wrong, you kinda just use logic and deal with it if it’s not a reason for concern.
“All that I am I give to you”.
My wife said this at our wedding. We had both grown up in the church and were wanting to approach marriage the way we thought was biblical. The wife submitting to the husband.
Early in the relationship we even practiced her being submissive and obedient. I would simply say that I wanted sex and it would progress from there. She would take her clothes off and lie spread eagle on the bed and I would get on top and have sex.
We used to even have discussions on how submissive she was. How she was feeling in terms of did she feel she had made a sacrifice. In that context her pain was OK. likewise if she had been busy focussed on doing some other activity and I said to come with me to have sex and if she had feelings of resentment that she had to overcome so as to willingly submit. Or for example she did not really like oral but she knew that it was what I wanted and so had to learn how to control the gag reflex.
I needed to read this! I’m currently practicing
Never saying no unless I’m severely sick. My husband is an amazing man and he deserves all of me whenever he wants.