This article has been updated and moved to my new site dedicated exclusively to the topic of sexuality from a Biblical perspective. You can find the updated version here.
The Benefits of Being a Sexually Obedient Wife
148 responses to “The Benefits of Being a Sexually Obedient Wife”
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Awwwwwww this is SO AWESOME BGR! Emails like this must make you so happy and encouraged!
It’s so true that a sexually obedient wife will help her husband in a multitude of ways, even in his work! How great that he’s become more confident and like he can “got out and conquer the world” like you said. So I’m still writing the series on the virtuous woman… I guess I’m titling it “The Best Gift You Can Give to Your Husband,” I might even make it into a full-out book some day. But today’s post was on the ability of a woman’s husband to safely trust in her, and how this trust means he will “have no lack of gain.” It fits right into your post!!!
Hope you’re doing well, BGR, let me know what you think of this latest post if you have the time! https://girlwithadragonflytattoo.com/2016/04/25/her-husband-can-safely-trust-in-her/
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I am on the opposite side of this issue. It’s my husband who doesn’t want to “get busy”. I can tell you it is extremely painful. It affects your self esteem by making you feel ugly or undesirable. I imagine men feel the same way when they are constantly refused. I’m not saying you have to say yes every single time, but this is a serious issue that I think needs to be openly discussed.
If you would, please say a prayer for me. I know it’s not what God wants, but I am seriously tempted to leave (not for another man or to cheat, but just to get away from the hurt). It’s hard to get over something you have to face night after night after night.Thanks for your post.
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Michelle,
I am so sorry to hear about your husband’s sexual denial. While I think it is not as common for a woman to be on the side being denied I have received many emails from women like you who are in fact being denied by their husbands and it saddens me. I know it must be equally frustrating for you as it would be for most men when their wives deny them. I will pray for you that God keeps you from temptation.
But I must tell you though that if this is a true case of sexual denial you may actually have grounds for Biblical divorce. It is one thing if a spouse from time to time says no or your sex drives don’t match up completely but you are having regular relations. But if he is not giving you sex at least once to twice a week or where you are like some women I have heard from that get it only a few times a year you may have a real case of sexual denial on your hands.
I would encourage you to read my post for wives facing this issue:
https://biblicalgenderroles.com/how-to-confront-your-husband-for-denying-you-sex/ -
@Wynter,
I just want to start by saying that I’m so happy that you and your husband have seen so many benefits from this. It’s no surprise that he feels more confident now that he knows that you’re ready and willing to have sex with him whenever he wants it, and he’s probably gotten more confident too now that he’s realized that his new attitude has made you want him more. It really is true that a man or a woman who is constantly worrying about whether or not their spouse will have sex with them that night can’t focus as much on other things. Now that your husband knows that he’s very likely to get a “yes” from you unless you’re not feeling well, his mind probably has more real estate (to use your phrase) to dedicate to other things.
I understand how it can be more a challenge to develop the mindset that leaves you more open to satisfying your husband’s sexual desires and (I’m guessing) to enjoying it yourself. It seems as though you’ve realized that it’s not just about going through the physical motions; it’s about opening yourself up mentally to dropping whatever you’re doing for the time being and about mentally and physically embracing your husband’s advances. I wonder if you’d feel more control over your body again (while also making your husband happy) by initiating whenever you’re in the mood and by being more assertive about your desires in the bedroom. Initiating sex will definitely make your husband feel wanted and excite him, and asking him for things that you want in the bedroom (if done the right way) will help show him how enthusiastic you are and how you know that you want things from him sexually. By “the right way,” I mean that you’re not acting critical of his performance. Instead, you’re showing that you’re really enjoying yourself and that you know that you want specific things form him because you like his body (specifically, his penis) and like having sex with him.
@BGR,
I also wanted to ask what the position on oral sex vs. vaginal sex is. I get the impression that some men view it is primarily a substitute for intercourse. However, my husband sometimes want it instead of vaginal intercourse because as he’s explained, he gets a different kind of pleasure from it. I’m content with this, and he pretty much always returns the favor for me, either immediately after I’m done with him or the next morning. Usually, we still have vaginal sex more often than oral sex, but some weeks because of how he’s feeling, we have more oral sex than vaginal sex. For example, this week, he was particularly tired with work and studying, so we only had vaginal sex once, but we have oral sex (mutual) three times as well as one night where we manually stimulated one another. I’m happy with the way that things went because I really, really enjoyed it, and my husband was too, so I know that I’m probably overthinking this. But is this an okay state of affairs as long as everyone’s desires are being met?
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Excellent post! Many Christian marriage bloggers attempt to make the points you do, but many are not as incisive as BGR. Keep up the necessary work – it is helping married couples.
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@Alex,
First I will give my general opinion on vaginal sex and oral sex in general then discuss the frequency issue:
Oral sex really gets a bad wrap in some Christian circles as a “selfish form of sex”. A woman once emailed me and told me that she believed oral sex was wrong because it gives pleasure to only one person and she believed that God meant for couples to experience sexual pleasure simultaneously so in her view couples should only have vaginal intercourse. I asked her what if for medical reasons they could not? Her answer was they need to wait. I also asked if she realized most of the time women don’t have orgasms through vaginal intercourse and how that should be handled? She said “If they don’t get an orgasm through intercourse then they don’t get an orgasm and that needs to be OK. The woman just needs to be greatful for the pleasure she receives from vaginal intercourse.”
I realize that might sound crazy to some of us – but there are a LOT of Christian women out there that feel this way about sex.
But while oral sex could be used in selfish ways I believe when used in a God honoring way it allows us to sacrificially love our spouse in a special way that is very different that vaginal sex. I can tell you at least from a man’s perspective and from the emails I have received from other men that there are very few things a wife could do for her husband on a regular basis that makes him feel more loved by her than her performing oral sex on him. A lot of women don’t realize this and a lot of men lie to their wives to make them feel better about their apprehension.
“Its ok babe I don’t really need that” is probably one of the common lies that men tell their wives to avoid stressing the relationship.
But then we come to vaginal sex. While oral sex’s greatest advantage in my opinion is the sacrificial side of it, vaginal intercourse’s greatest advantage is the intimacy aspect of it. There is nothing more intimate than face to face sex where a couple are looking into each others eyes as they have sex and in those moments of intimacy that it is like looking into person’s soul. This why I have harped in several posts here that most men do not like it when their wives close their eyes the whole time they are having sex. Eye contact is very important.
Now as to frequency of oral sex vs vaginal sex:
I think most men are creatures of variety as I have discussed whether it is enjoying the view of many different body types of women or when it comes to sex with their wives having sex in a variety of positions and using different methods. I think most men would prefer that oral sex be a part of most sexual encounters with their wives even if just as form of foreplay. I don’t think if you have more oral sex in a particular week than vaginal that there is anything wrong with that.
I think the key question is the pattern over the longer view. One week is nothing. But if a couple told me that over a year that 90 percent of their sex was oral and only 10 percent was intercourse I might not think that is a good balance unless of course for medical reasons they could not have intercourse.
Again I think most sexual encounters between a husband and wife should include BOTH oral sex and vaginal sex. Its just a matter of how you “finish” the task. A lot of women rarely have orgasms through vaginal intercourse so if a woman told me that her husband has to finish her manually or orally most of the time I would tell her that is completely normal and its good that he makes that effort to make sure she has a release as well if she wants that.
But I have a little more trouble when I hear some stories which wives have sent me where their husband can never finish vaginally and she must always finish him orally or manually. This can really take a psychological tole on a woman that her husband can never complete the act of intercourse as God designed it. In some cases it may be a medical issue where a woman needs to have vaginal surgery to tighten her vagina but in most cases this is a psychosomatic issue that men need to get sex counseling for.
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Thanks, BGR. This is definitely not a typical pattern for us. And I do agree that it’s sad that some women are so opposed to giving or receiving oral because they erroneously believe that they should only orgasm through vaginal penetration. It deprives the husband of variety, and it deprives many women of the change to orgasm regularly.
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“The greatest lie of feminism is telling women “You can have it all”. That is utterly untrue.”
absolutely.
—————————————-“I think it is great that you recognize your own rebelliousness and your desire to control your time and your body. At the same time though – don’t beat yourself up. Recognize your sinful inclinations and then give those things to God.”
I think this is normal and why women resist doing what we should. we don’t always like it. it’s hard. it goes against most everything we’ve been taught and are being taught that our bodies are OURS, to the point where the baby inside means nothing. when we begin to accept the truth, it is hard.
I also think this is why God was so clear about it – because He knew we would want to control things. He knew it is our nature to do so. but He also knew that if we follow that nature, nothing but destruction follows.
————————————————“I want to thank you for sharing this with me and my audience – it is truly a blessing.”
ditto 🙂
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Michelle,
It is also the case, that if you use to deny/refuse your husband he may not trust you and possibly shut down his own libido. Many couples stop having sex and do not have an explanation for it, but when looking into it, refusals were the start. The husband gets use to or resigns himself to self satisfaction within the marriage. You might want sex 1-2 times per week or less and he wanted it daily or more. Having sex 1-2 times per week to him might just be a “tease” and he would rather not have it at all than feel like you are the one controlling the timing and frequency leading him to the frustration he would rather not deal with.
Sometimes a lack of respect will kill a middle aged man’s libido or an older man’s libido as well.
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This should be required reading for any woman preparing to get married. BGR brings up an INCREDIBLE point about a wife having to ‘reset’ sexual relations. A big reason men get married is for unfettered sexual access to a woman he has feelings for and, when that access starts to get put behind walls and doors, it gets very frustrating. No man likes to be rejected, and to be rejected by the woman whom you just declared before God and man would be your only sexual outlet – sometimes death feels like a better alternative.
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This was a fantastic post and so encouraging to hear Christian women who aren’t afraid to both acknowledge and do what is right when it comes to sex. It is so frustrating to me to watch sex jokes on TV about how sex stops after marriage, or about how all women are frigid, etc. because it really shouldn’t and doesn’t have to be that way. But how much more frustrating to know that that kind of behavior has infiltrated the church as well.
While this post was about the change she saw in her husband (which I have no doubt was definitely related to her increased sexual attention), I do think it is important for wives to realize that this isn’t just about being sacrificial. Increased sex both in quality and quantity has a positive effect for women, too! It is absolutely astounding to me looking back over the past year for me. April, 2015 I was absolutely petrified of sex (kept me awake the night before my wedding knowing that the dreaded initiation of painful sex was a mere 24 hours away). But having walked that road with my husband and having worked on and through it together, I cannot believe how much happier and more fulfilled we are now. I know that if we can have this much progress over a 9 month period of time (most of which has been pregnancy), there is no reason other women can’t have the same results. A wife might have to ‘keep at it’ for a short period of time as her body and emotions adjust (as I had to as well), but it shouldn’t be long before she is reaping the rewards along with her husband.
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@Wynter,
I had some more thoughts for you on the issue of your feelings of surrendering control of your body.
1) I think that is what I was getting at in my first post here. Your husband’s sexual needs may be greater than yours, but that doesn’t change the fact that marriage calls both husbands and wives to surrender control of their bodies to their spouses. Women may typically have to put this surrender into practice more, but it may still comfort you to remember that your husband has also vowed to render you the same service. It might not take many sacrifices on his part now, but given his attitude, he would likely make those sacrifices for you if he ever had to in the future.
2) You mention that your husband is now able to work less because of his managerial role. I’m betting that this means that he now has more time for you, and not just sexually. If that’s the case, that’s one way that the sacrifices that you made to give yourself more time and energy for sex has made your husband more available to you in other ways. Also, as you’re working less, he is also working less but making more.
3) You’ve said that the recent changes in your husband have already increased your attraction to him. I’m betting that this will get even better over time, which will no doubt make it easier and more pleasurable for you to be so available to him.
4) I think that it’s also possible with time that your husband’s increased desire for you will have a great impact on your confidence. I know that I feel amazing and hyper-confident whenever my husband shows his desire for me really blatantly and boldly. I think, too, that it’s possible to feel a sense of power knowing that you’re the one making him feel that way and knowing that you’re the only woman with whom he’s ever going to satisfy his desires. I don’t think that it’s wrong to feel this way as long as you use those feelings to motivate yourself to be more sexually available. Just don’t fall into the trap that BGR described where you end up getting a thrill out of making your husband feel as though you might reject him each time that he comes into you.
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@Jeff,
Your Statement:
“It is also the case, that if you use to deny/refuse your husband he may not trust you and possibly shut down his own libido. Many couples stop having sex and do not have an explanation for it, but when looking into it, refusals were the start. The husband gets use to or resigns himself to self satisfaction within the marriage. You might want sex 1-2 times per week or less and he wanted it daily or more. Having sex 1-2 times per week to him might just be a “tease” and he would rather not have it at all than feel like you are the one controlling the timing and frequency leading him to the frustration he would rather not deal with.”
This is a great point you raise and something I ask women to look at when their husbands are sexually denying them. I raised this issue in https://biblicalgenderroles.com/2015/09/16/12-reasons-your-husband-may-not-want-to-have-sex-with-you/ which is link to from the article I gave her. Below is the section where I talked about this.
“You used to deny him sexually
This happens a lot to Christian wives. Early in your marriage you never denied your husband and you enjoyed sex together. Then the kids came along. You had years of pregnancies, raising kids and getting them off to school. Now you can finally breathe!
What you did not realize is during all those years of business you either subtly or directly denied your husband’s sexual advances. You made him feel selfish because you were so exhausted from dealing with the kids and you thought “How can he even think of having sex with all this going on? How can he be so selfish?” This devastated your husband in a way few women can comprehend. Eventually he determined that you simply did not care about his needs but simply saw him as a paycheck and helper with the kids.
Now after years of sexual denial you have decided you are ready to have sex! Well he is done. Some men might come back from this, while others will need counseling to get their minds straightened out about this. He may have a lot of unresolved bitterness that he needs to give to the Lord before he will be able to sexually desire you again.”
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@Ame,
“I also think this is why God was so clear about it – because He knew we would want to control things. He knew it is our nature to do so. but He also knew that if we follow that nature, nothing but destruction follows.”
It is interesting that you bring up the sin that women face of wanting “to control things” as that will be the subject of an upcoming post I have just jotted down some ideas for last week. Men also face this issue of trying to control things they should not and I wrote a post about that about two years ago https://biblicalgenderroles.com/2014/07/01/how-a-christian-wife-should-handle-a-controlling-husband/
But the trick about this is somethings we are meant to control and other things we are not. Would we say it is wrong for a mother to try and “control” her unruly child in store? Of course not. It would be wrong for her not to try and control that child’s behavior. Would it be wrong for a manager at a company to try and “control” his employees behavior as it relates to them getting to work on time and getting their work done? Of course not.
Should we practice self-control? By all means – the Bible admonishes us to all the time. But what we are forbidden from trying to control and where trying to control something or someone becomes sinful is when it is NOT ours to control. When we don’t have authority over that person or thing yet we try to control it anyway.
Often times in this discussion of wives and sex we run to I Corinthians 7:3-5 to show that God clearly gives husbands power over their wives bodies. But in this same passage it also says wives have power over their husbands bodies and I have seen Christian feminists actually try to use this passage to totally undermine the unique authority that a husband has over his wife. I Corinthians 7 is talking about sexual access to one’s spouse’s body.
I believe the best case for sexual obedience from wives is not found in I Corinthians 7 but rather in Ephesians 5:24 where God tells wives they are to submit to their husbands as the church submits to Christ in EVERYTHING. Obviously we have covered the exception to that rule being if a husband asks his wife to sin against God that she obeys God rather than him – but apart from that she is to obey him in EVERYTHING and this includes sexual obedience.
My point in all this is wives have no right to try and control things that God has not given them the right or responsibility to control. A woman has no right to try and control her husband or to try and control her life decisions as his wife or his sexual access to her. What she can still control is the only thing her husband cannot attempt to control and that is her thoughts, feelings and attitudes.
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“Now after years of sexual denial you have decided you are ready to have sex! Well he is done. Some men might come back from this, while others will need counseling to get their minds straightened out about this. He may have a lot of unresolved bitterness that he needs to give to the Lord before he will be able to sexually desire you again.””
This actually happened to one of my relatives that I never met (they died before I was born I think). My mom actually told me the story of their marriage… that since they were Catholic, they had had quite a few children really close together, and she grew to become terrified of sex because she didn’t want to just keep getting pregnant. So she denied him all the time, and then once she hit menopause, she wanted to have sex with him again, but his heart had grown cold toward her. He no longer wanted to have sex with her! What a sad ending to what could have been a beautiful marriage… but yea, that lesson stuck with me and affected my view on sex in marriage for sure.
It’s important to teach your children these things… it can have a huge impact on their future happiness and the happiness of their spouse.
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It is sad that many Christian wives act as gatekeepers or refusers when it comes to sexual intimacy with their husband. This is sin and more pastors need to talk on this with their congregations.
As to middle aged and older men who have endured sexual refusal for many years, it is painful and does lessen their libido in many cases. Sexual refusal causes much resentment in the spouse who is being refused. Healing is difficult. No doubt, many marriages have ended in divorce due to sexual refusal.
@BGR:
“While oral sex’s greatest advantage in my opinion is the sacrificial side of it, vaginal intercourse’s greatest advantage is the intimacy aspect of it. ”
Yes, vaginal intercourse is intimate, but I would like to say that for the wife who has learned through her own experience to enjoy giving oral sex to her husband, oral sex can be very emotionally intimate for the wife and her husband. During oral sex both spouses are vulnerable, but the act involves mutual respect and acceptance. As well, the wife participates in her husband’s climax during oral sex in a way that is more immediate and intense than in vaginal intercourse. I am not trying to lessen the importance and value of intercourse. But, many people do not realize that oral sex can be a very emotionally intimate act if the spouses approach it with the right (positive) mental attitude. (For husbands, the wife being active rather than passive is satisfying or gratifying. As well, if the husband knows that his wife enjoys giving him oral sex, her enjoyment is emotionally satisfying to him. The wife’s enthusiasm is more important than her technique.)
Wives can work at cultivating a positive mental attitude about giving oral sex and this can help them to let go of inhibitions and fears about it. As to frequency, there is no set ratio that works for all couples. Sure, the majority of lovemaking sessions ought to end with intercourse. But, if the oral sex is only happening less than 5 or even 10 per cent of the time (or only once a year as a birthday “gift”), that is going to be a problem for most husbands.
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BGR – It is only April and this is already my post of the year! *****************
This is what has been sorely lacking in the Christian eco-sphere; how following God’s design for sex in marriage brings the greatest possible blessing. Wifely submission is the lever for her greatest power to help her family glorify God and launch her husband to his peak performance in life. She is weaker when she attempts to control, but at her most powerful in her meek and quite spirit of submission. Sexual submission is her exercise of power, not over her husband, but for him and for the family. A wife who submits sexually to her husband has real power against Satan (1 Cor 7:5) and the power to affect her children and grandchildren in Christ. If she only knew what real power she has available for the family, she would rebuke the feminists, the “family ministries” and the white knights with her joyfully sexy and powerful marriage. Like many of the other paradoxes of christian living, her power is in her submission, never in her control.
When a wife is deaf to the “you go girl” and “happy wife – happy life” messages of the Christian family ministries, her marriage better images Christ and the Church and she helps her husband to have a vigor in his stride. All the: men – bad messages, the men must earn access to sex messages and the wife is the gate keeper to sex messages are feminist strongholds that have been adopted in Christendom and they must be torn down for the Word of Christ.
2 Corinthians 10:4-6 For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds, casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, and being ready to punish all disobedience when your obedience is fulfilled.
The church and the family desperately need older women to sexually surrender body, mind and soul, to their husbands, and then teach the younger women God’s way and His gracious blessings. It is exactly this kind of story that can help stop the unrelenting blaspheming of the Word of God. Titus 2:4 Make no mistake the vast majority of what counts as Christian teachings on sex and marriage are blasphemy. All one need do to see the blasphemy is substitute wife for church and husband for Christ and bingo, you get the worst heresy and evil that fallen man could conceive.
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@Jonadab,
I also think that many Christians fail to emphasize another very important fact about submission and marital duties. Wives are called to make sacrifices in the name of submission and obedience, and this can be hard for them to accept if they only focus on their own sacrifices. But they need to remember that their husbands, in their role as leaders, are also called upon to make sacrifices. A wife might not be happy about doing everything that her husband asks her to do, but she should remember that he often does things that he doesn’t necessarily want to do in the name of providing for her, protecting her, guiding her, and knowing her. He goes to work even when he isn’t feeling great. He pushes himself physically and mentally in the name of helping her when she’s too physically weak to accomplish a task on her own. He takes time out of his day and away from his hobbies to be her spiritual advisor and to talk to her about her thoughts, opinions, fears, wants, and needs. Men may often enjoy doing these things, but there will be other times when they put aside their own desires and physical needs to be good providers and leaders for their wives.
Now, women do have to continue to submit to and obey their husbands even when their husbands aren’t fulfilling their marital duties. The only exceptions occur when the husband is so grossly neglecting his duties that he’s given her biblical grounds for divorce. (So if he starts chronically sexually denying her, stops providing for her and makes no indication that he intends to change that, or abandons her.) But they should remember when their husbands make sacrifices for them in order to ward off bitterness towards their men. And they should remember that God has called their husbands to make sacrifices in their roles as leaders because being a leader means embracing many responsibilities. That way, even if their husbands aren’t good leaders, they won’t become bitter over God’s commands to them as wives. No, marriage is not equal. At the same time, yes, it is designed to be mutually beneficial.
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@larryzb,
“Yes, vaginal intercourse is intimate, but I would like to say that for the wife who has learned through her own experience to enjoy giving oral sex to her husband, oral sex can be very emotionally intimate for the wife and her husband. During oral sex both spouses are vulnerable, but the act involves mutual respect and acceptance. As well, the wife participates in her husband’s climax during oral sex in a way that is more immediate and intense than in vaginal intercourse.”
I completely agree with this. Extremely well said.
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Jonadab,
Thank you for your kind words. I loved this story from this woman as well – it is powerful and moving.
“All one need do to see the blasphemy is substitute wife for church and husband for Christ and bingo, you get the worst heresy and evil that fallen man could conceive.”
I agree with you that just take most Christian marriage books out there and if you subsisted “Christ” where they say husband and you put “Church” where they say wife the heresy would jump off the page at you. But in so many books – even ones from conservative complimentarians who teach on male headship they always say things like “well you can’t take the Christ/Church relationship of Ephesians 5 too far because after all man is not God.” This is a straw man argument though. Of course we know man is not God and cannot do what God can do nor is he sinless like God. But God told sinful woman to submit to sinful man as the church submits to Christ – period.
God designed man and chose man both before the fall and even after the fall to be his image bearer. God created woman FROM man and in man’s image FOR man just as he created man for himself. This is a beautiful picture yet most marriage books gut the truth from the symbolism.
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Larryzb,
Pastors are talking about it. THEY ARE FOR THE WIFE DENYING THEIR HUSBANDS!
Sproul, Mohler, Begg, Rainey, Wilson, Keller, Piper, Chandler, McArthur… they all lean feminine (except when it comes to their authority in THEIR church). In a marriage they teach mutual submission as long as you agree and do as your wife says.
TGC, CBMW, Family Life Today, Focus on the Family…. They all claim 1 Cor 7, but say that women can say no for any reason can “direct” their husband using intimacy as the tool.
They also are getting very close to calling it marital rape if the wife consents to sex, but doesn’t want to. After all, it was against her will. The modern pastor has exchanged the Holy Spirit with the female imperative in regards to marriage and christianity as a whole.
Disagreeing with your wife= not living with understanding as 1Pe 3:7
Correcting = abuse.
Expecting sex= rape. -
@ Jeff
Allow me to use your examples to demonstrate how far from the Bible the church has veered.“Disagreeing with your wife= not living with understanding as 1Pe 3:7 ”
There is no chance for a disagreement in a Christian marriage, for the wife submits in all things Eph 5:24 and even if the husband obeys not the Word she is to keep silent. 1 Pe 3:1. Absolutely no room for arguments, just opportunity for the wife to kill the flesh and be subject to God’s authority in her marriage. To disobey her husband is blasphemy according to Titus 2:5.
“Correcting = abuse.”
A husband is called to imitate Christ by sanctifying his wife by the washing and watering of the Word (Eph 5:26). Washing means to remove sin and the Word is rightfully used according to 2 Timothy 3:16-17 “… for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. ” It is equally used so that the woman of God is thoroughly equipped for every good work. As Paul wrote to Timothy, he was mainly concerned with the teaching in the Church which was directed toward men, it was husbands that primarily taught their wives. (1 Cor 13:45). In other words God directs husbands to correct and reprove their wives and to instruct them in the Word of God. This is an area in which the church has usurped the family jurisdiction and yet another way in which the church destroys families.
Expecting sex= rape.
There is no refusal of sex in marriage except for a time of fasting that both parties agree to and then they must immediately engage in sex after the fast. Because the husband has authority over his wife’s body any charge of rape would be a charge that he raped himself both giving consent and refusing to consent to himself at the same time, which is preposterous.
1 Corinthians 7:4-5 The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Do not deprive one another except with consent for a time, that you may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again so that Satan does not tempt you because of your lack of self-control.
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biblicalgenderroles
APRIL 26, 2016 AT 12:25 PM
@Ame,
“It is interesting that you bring up the sin that women face of wanting “to control things” as that will be the subject of an upcoming post …”as this has seeming happened a few times … that i’ve commented something that went into a post in some form … all i can say is that great minds must think alike 🙂
=================onto serious matters …
yes, there is a balance in control … what is mine, what is not mine.
“My point in all this is wives have no right to try and control things that God has not given them the right or responsibility to control. A woman has no right to try and control her husband or to try and control her life decisions as his wife or his sexual access to her. What she can still control is the only thing her husband cannot attempt to control and that is her thoughts, feelings and attitudes.”
yes.
and then there must be a peaceful acceptance of this … not a resentful obedience … b/c resentment fosters nothing good. often people who are full of resentment, which turns to bitterness, take it out in other ways, ‘get even’ in other ways … and women are masters of such.
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Men – i have a question.
you have mentioned that when a wife denies her husband sex, she is then the one who needs to reopen that door (if i understood y’all correctly).
my question is this … are there other areas in marriage where a husband (real or imagined) perceives his wife has ‘closed the door’ and needs for her to be the one to open that door again?
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I wanted to drop back in real quick and add something about women who have a “sick thrill” out of keeping their husbands guessing about sex. I have a coworker who brags about doing this (I have briefly mentioned her before if I remember correctly), and she is one of my better friends from my work. I don’t think I realized how normal this behavior had become until I saw her bragging to complete strangers about it. And she claims to be a Christian.
So women, PLEASE do not fall for the idea that only ‘terrible’ women do this and think that that therefore excludes you. For some women, using sexual power like that is a way to counter insecurities we have either about our looks, sexual prowess, or something else entirely. It’s not always about wanting to hurt our husbands. I have very very briefly struggled with the desire to do this and it was all about how to make myself seem more sexually desirable and not at all on hurting my husband. However, the solution is the same regardless: take the focus off yourself and put it back on God by focusing on your husband.
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@AnnaMS,
Your Statement:
“For some women, using sexual power like that is a way to counter insecurities we have either about our looks, sexual prowess, or something else entirely.”
I agree with you that not all women do this in a conscious way to try and keep control. Some women consciously or unconsciously do this from a position of insecurity and they want to drive up the desire their husbands have for them. But this is not right. There are healthier ways to increase your husband’s desire that do not involve denying him and making him wait.
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BGR, absolutely. And I wasn’t trying to imply that there weren’t women who didn’t do this from a desire to keep control because I’m sure there are. But from what I’ve struggled with, and what I’m guessing my coworker and other women I know are likely to struggle with, I wanted to share that Satan often uses a slight downward spiral to trap women into the same sin that we would not just plunge down into. We need to always be on guard!
There are definitely better ways for women to feel desirable. Having a sexually-satisfied husband who is happy with me does a lot more for that in the long run than denying him would.
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BGR, posted on Proverbs 31:12 today if you’re interested! https://girlwithadragonflytattoo.com/2016/04/27/his-wife-is-over-flowing-with-goodness/
This has been really hard, but really rewarding to learn and study all of this!
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“I agree with you that not all women do this in a conscious way to try and keep control. Some women consciously or unconsciously do this from a position of insecurity and they want to drive up the desire their husbands have for them. But this is not right.”
And yet the pulpits of the church are silent on the most pervasive sins of wives, all the while bemoaning the male sexual drive and design. The church has left a vacuum by abandoning the Biblical teachings on sex and the world and the Devil have been happy to fill it with perversions. I hear far more on not being a doormat or women’s low self esteem then I do on meek and quite spirit submitting in all things to her husband as to Christ. In fact I estimate the word “doormat”, as in don’t be treated as a doormat, is spoken thousands of times more than any reference to sexual defrauding as sin.
In over half a century of faithful church attendance, listening to sermons online, Christian counseling books and seminary, I have not heard from another pastor, counselor or professor the sermon or essay that “yes” means “yes” and the only time a gal can say yes is at her wedding! The Bible is unambiguously clear, It is always “no” until it is “yes”, and then it is always “yes”.
As long as the church is mute, the sins of wives, whatever their inward motivation, will continue to dominate the marriage landscape and destroy the family and consequently the church, at least what is left of it in the west.
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Lol Jonadab, the Bible is unambiguously clear that after the wedding it is always yes? As in sex can never not happen? And girls can only say ‘yes’ at their wedding even though after that it is still somehow always ‘yes'(who’s saying it then at that point anyway)? I realize that there is a lot of frustration and bitterness towards women in general d/t the actions (or inactions) of modern feminists, pastors, and individual wives. But too many times, that results in absolutely absurd statements like this one.
It is perfectly appropriate to abstain from sex for a short time after childbirth and during a wife’s period. And there is a world of difference between being told the occasional ‘no’ to sex and being deprived which is what the Bible commands against. I don’t advocate for husbands or wives to ever say ‘no’ unless there is a legitimately good reason, but if spouses are having regular sexual relations and they say ‘no’ for a dumb reason, they may be in violation of other Bible verses, but they are not in violation of 1 Corinthians 7:5.
Men with a chip on their shoulder are definitely not the solution to getting the church back on track anymore than a woman who has had to spend the majority of her marriage saying ‘no’ to her husband (pedophilia, other sins, etc.) is the best person to talk about Biblical submission.
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“I don’t advocate for husbands or wives to ever say ‘no’ unless there is a legitimately good reason…”
Like when they agree for a brief time of prayer and fasting? or did you have something else to add to the Word of God? I think you are trying to make the exception the rule and by a thousand qualification make the law of God of none effect.
It is blasphemy against the Word of God, for a wife to be disobedient to their husbands, (sexually and other wise), the ONLY exception is if obeying their husband requires that they personally and clearly disobey God’s commands.
So yes, once the marriage vow is spoken, the wife relinquishes any authority to say no sexually to her husband, except if saying yes means she will personally sin against a clear command of God. BTW- the husband is also bound to say “yes” to his wife and meet her sexual desires. The Bible is no -No-NO outside of marriage and yes-Yes-YES inside the marriage covenant. Even during her period she is to try and meet his sexual needs even if is by alternatives to vaginal intercourse. It isn’t an ethical conundrum, it is just offensive to the spirit of autonomy before God.
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Wives withholding sex because of personal insecurities and/or a desire to be more desirable to their husbands?
If women today have such serious insecurities and buy into this feminist power dialectic, perhaps we need to do a better job of raising our daughters in this society (here in the US, but this feminist ideology is in all the western countries now). We need to instill the right values in our female children in the home at an early age. And, mothers need to be a good example to their daughters by being good wives. A wife who has the right values and right understanding of her role will not feel such insecurities, or at least will not suffer any confusion as to the proper role of a Christian wife. Rebellious, controlling,
sex refusing wives are not very desirable to their husbands. -
Jonadab-the-Rechabite
APRIL 27, 2016 AT 1:02 PM
“In over half a century of faithful church attendance, listening to sermons online, Christian counseling books and seminary,”
=======================curious … have you pastored a church or served on staff?
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Jonadab-the-Rechabite
APRIL 27, 2016 AT 1:02 PM“And yet the pulpits of the church are silent on the most pervasive sins of wives, all the while bemoaning the male sexual drive and design. ”
Yes, that is true. It is that damnable male sex drive that excuses and absolves all failings and sins of wives. That, sorry to say, is the gist of both Protestant and Catholic teachings on married sex. (I am not sure what the eastern Orthodox Churches say on married sex.) This is not new, but goes back to the sexual pessimism of (St.) Augustine (356 – 430). This sexual pessimism has done much harm over the centuries. It is not Biblical, and it is not rational.
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Jonadab, I am definitely not trying to make the exception the rule. If you knew anything about me from this blog, you would know that sexual denial (especially among Christians) is a huge deal to me and not something I have ever advocated for. Nor have I ever suggested that a wife sexually neglect her husband just because intercourse was temporarily not an option (you may not have read about the first month of my marriage, but suffice it to say, I don’t advocate for sexual denial). The Bible actually does address issues like periods and childbirth so I am hardly adding to the Word of God by mentioning them.
Do you realize that we are on the same side here? That we both want to see strong Christian marriages where men are leading well and women are submitting well? That we both want to see sexually satisfied couples fully enjoying the gift of sex? It’s just that I try to encourage women to be better whereas you gripe and whine about the evils of wimminz? I cannot think of a single time where I have seen you write anything complimentary about the female sex (and it’s not just you). Do you realize that your bitterness against women is every bit as much offensive to God as feminism is?
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@AME
“curious … have you pastored a church or served on staff?”
Yes, I was a pastor and both served a church and planted another, now I’m just a voice in the wilderness!
I still believe the key to reforming society is the “foolishness of preaching”. That is why I am so adamant that repentance begin in the house of the LORD and in particular with its leaders. Feminism in its many forms is one the Devil’s most effective weapons to destroy the family, the church and culture. What makes so effective is that is embraced and accepted in the church, with “family ministries” propping it up as gospel. If the Church will not defend sex in marriage it invites the devil to take up residence.
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Larryzb, it is a very twisted logic that goes entirely against what Jesus tells us about sex and marriage, but it is the idea that if a woman refuses her husband for a few days, his desire will build up and his desperation for her will increase. She senses the increased desperation and it fuels her ego and her desire to be wanted. It is indeed a ‘sick thrill’.
I think there is an appropriate time for sexual teasing, but it should be focused on the other person and not as a way to maximize one’s own self-esteem. And it should never be prolonged. Back when I fit into lingerie, I would often slip into some before watching a TV episode with my husband. He would spend the next 30-45 minutes aware of my body against his and his hands would start roaming and the resulting sex would be better for him. But instances like this are not the same as what I described above. But unfortunately, some women see increased results in less than an hour and think “hmm…what would a whole week look like?”
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@Anna
“Do you realize that your bitterness against women is every bit as much offensive to God as feminism is?”Not bitterness against women, but bitterness against feminism which is consistent with God applauds.
Revelation 2:2-3 “I know your works, your labor, your patience, and that you cannot bear those who are evil. And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars; and you have persevered and have patience, and have labored for My name’s sake and have not become weary. ”
Confusing women with feminism is fallacious. I condemn both men and women without prejudice who practice or subscribe to feminism . I do not cheer-lead for men unless they are advocating an ethic based on the Word of God. That ethic towards marriage is routinely supplanted for wisdom that comes not from God but as James puts it is “earthly, sensual and demonic.”
James 3:15-18 ” This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic. For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there. But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy.”
As far as the OT purity laws that deal with a woman’s period and post child-birth, even the most ardent theonomists believe that they have abrogated, Christ having fulfilled the purity laws by cleaning us from all unrighteousness. I also eat bacon, shrimp and wear cotton blended shirts. Once I even spilled barbecue sauce from a pork-chop on my dress shirt that was made of cotton, silk and poly. I didn’t think it was sin to wear the shirt, but maybe to not have a strategically placed napkin.
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Jonadab –
“Yes, I was a pastor and both served a church and planted another, now I’m just a voice in the wilderness!I still believe the key to reforming society is the “foolishness of preaching”. That is why I am so adamant that repentance begin in the house of the LORD and in particular with its leaders. Feminism in its many forms is one the Devil’s most effective weapons to destroy the family, the church and culture. What makes so effective is that is embraced and accepted in the church, with “family ministries” propping it up as gospel. If the Church will not defend sex in marriage it invites the devil to take up residence.”
===============my ex-fil is retired from full-time pastoral ministry. he gave me a view that was not pleasant by the way he lived his life.
I am not against pastors though I have been very wounded by a few, including him. it’s been many years since I’ve regularly attended church, though.
to speak the truth from the pulpit is indeed an uphill battle. I would imagine time in the wilderness is necessary every so many years.
repentance … so desperately needed, yet so very rare.
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Not sure bitterness is ever a good thing. And it often comes across as bitterness against women in general. Have you ever said anything good about women on this blog?
I don’t hold to OT culture laws as applicable to our culture today, but it’s rarely a bad thing to not get another person’s blood on you (ignoring someone who needs medical help should be an obvious exception). Not to mention that a lot of times women are sore in that area during periods. There are other forms of sexual pleasure that can and should be pursued. And if a man can’t stay off the woman who just delivered his child until her pain can subside and that area can heal, he has some serious issues.
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@Jonadab,
“I hear far more on not being a doormat or women’s low self esteem then I do on meek and quite spirit submitting in all things to her husband as to Christ. In fact I estimate the word “doormat”, as in don’t be treated as a doormat, is spoken thousands of times more than any reference to sexual defrauding as sin.”
Is low self esteem really good for a Christian marriage though? I don’t think so. Women’s insecurities are far more likely to undermine a marriage than women’s self confidence is. (Maybe I’m unfairly conflating self-esteem and self confidence, but I think that they’re similar enough that it’s fair to use them interchangeably.) AnnaMS brought up one example of a case where a wife’s low self esteem led her to deny her husband sex periodically just to make him want her more and chase after her more ardently. As Anna explained, this woman wasn’t doing it to exert more control. She was doing it in a misguided attempt to make herself feel more desirable. A wife who had sufficient confidence in herself and her husband’s desire for her wouldn’t be likely to wrong her husband in that way.
I have two more examples from my own marriage. The first example relates to sex. While I had enough confidence in my body and in my husband’s desire for me that I never denied him (even the case when I contracted a UTI shortly after our wedding night, I provided oral sex until I was medically able to go back to vaginal sex), I didn’t have much confidence in my ability to initiate sex. The consequence was that even when I really wanted to initiate, I would end up making ambiguous attempts to get things started or to get him to get things started. This was a major mood-killer for him until I was finally able to do what he wanted, be bolder, and act more confidently in the bedroom to a degree that I turned him on more and was able to improve my techniques through practice.
The second examples relates to my ability to be a reliable helper to him. Before, when he would ask me to do something, I would worry so much about my ability to do those things as well as he might be able to that it would impact my ability to actually figure out how to accomplish those tasks. Once I stopped doubting myself and starting trying to figure out how to work through those things myself, I realized that I usually could do what he wanted me to do without having to run to him for help.
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@ AnnaMS
“Have you ever said anything good about women on this blog? ”
Not that the truth of God’s Word should depend on me, a pitiable broken sinner, but ….
On this post alone – I applauded the woman who wrote the letter that BGR used as the source of this post. I linked on Facebook the beautiful post that Dragonfly posted on her blog and linked in the comments here. Unless I am deceived they are both women, so yes when women write something that is in harmony with the Word I will applaud them for their obedience to the Word. But why would any of that matter? If what I write is true to the Word, that should be the only factor on accepting or rejecting it?
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@Jonadab,
“As far as the OT purity laws that deal with a woman’s period and post child-birth, even the most ardent theonomists believe that they have abrogated, Christ having fulfilled the purity laws by cleaning us from all unrighteousness.”
Regardless of whether or not they’ve been abrogated, it’s still true that it’s medically dangerous to have vaginal sex in the weeks immediately following childbirth. Are you really arguing that men and women should ignore medical advice after childbirth or after surgery, especially when there are other ways for them to achieve sexual satisfaction? Why cause your spouses (and I say spouse because men who’ve just had surgery or who are in a state where their hearts weren’t healthy enough for sex would also be medically advised to abstained) pain, slow down the healing process, and possibly worsen or prolong their injuries when you can just get a blow job instead?
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@Alex
“Are you really arguing that men and women should ignore medical advice after childbirth or after surgery, especially when there are other ways for them to achieve sexual satisfaction? ”
No!
I am arguing that a wife/husband should not say no to sex and offer alternatives to vaginal sex when vaginal sex is medically inappropriate or uncomfortable. There are many ways to have sex in marriage, just because one way is temporarily unavailable, does not suggest that all of the other ways to enjoy sex are unavailable.
I would add that when a wife doesn’t try and control sexual access, a husband is more likely to lovingly grant her a postponement. The trouble is when a wife thinks she can say no to her husband. When she has an attitude of yes, he will be less insistent during the times of physical handicap.
Imagine a wife who shows compassion toward her husband for his forgoing sex with his her postpartum and offers to relieve him with oral sex; a good-hearted husband will be overcome with compassion for his wife and he will value her as worth more than rubies. The exceptions take care of themselves when the overarching principle is practiced. But where their is a heart of autonomy over her own body, every refusal is an act of treachery.
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@Jonadab,
Okay! Thanks for clearing that up. I misunderstood your replies to AnnaMS.
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I will 100% agree that other forms of sexual pleasure should be substituted when intercourse is a non-option (although really i feel like a broken record at this point).
And no, outside of obvious exaggerations, none of what you say about women (when you really mean feminists) is wrong, but sometimes comes across as overly-focused. I could write comment after comment on how men should love their wives more, rape other women less, and not try to seduce young teens. And that would all be 100% Biblical truth. But if that was 98% of what I said about men, that wouldn’t be fair to the plenty of excellent men in the world, nor is it respectful to their Maker.
Has bashing women ever won a feminist over to the truth? I get that misery loves company, but at some point a lot less whining and more actually engaging with feminists as people rather than as forces of evil might produce better results. I am hardly perfect at this and whatever I have managed to accomplish with the people in my life (I work on a unit with all female employees except one) is by the grace of God, but I think swallowing back bitterness and showing God’s love to people isn’t a bad strategy.
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@AnnaMS
Telling the truth is an act of love. It is common that hardened hearts will not receive the Word of God. Would you condemn Jeremiah for his lack of effectively converting Israel? Would you condemn Christ for failing to convert all of humanity?
<– I could write comment after comment on how men should love their wives more, rape other women less, and not try to seduce young teens.
If this blog were about how evil men do evil things you would be correct to bemoan those sins. But this blog is on Biblical marriage, and it is wholly and holy appropriate to admonish and rebuke the sins that are most common in Christendom and nearly ignored or worse validated by the church. Feminism is the zeitgeist of modern rebellion.
The reason Jeremiah rallied against idolatry and Luther against personal merit unto salvation is that those are the sins that prevailed in their cultures. Feminism is a sin that has taken hold in the church and in Christian marriage, so I would be unfaithful to my Lord to fail to rebuke its practitioners. In the exercise of 2 Corinthians 10:5 it is in my opinion, feminism that needs "…casting down arguments and every high thing that exalts itself against the knowledge of God, bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ, ". Failure to address is the failure to image Christ and His church and to give the blasphemy of the Word of God our approval.
Some may feel uncomfortable in the light of God's blueprint for marriage, but as Luther once opined "preach so that people either come to hate their sin or hate the preacher for revealing to them their sins." To do less to have fellowship with darkness!
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Alex, and Anna,
The problem is when you immediately go to your strawman of “shouldn’t/can’t have sex after childbirth”…. NO $&**? Instead of thinking there might me an alternative you jump into thinking sex with your vigina instead of realizing fulfilling your husband’s desire so that he isn’t tempted.
Can a man go a few days? Yes, as much as you can go without him talking or listening to you.
Larryzb,
The women are FAILING to teach younger women. Obviously this goes way back to the prohibition era. That is how bootlegging started and thus the moffia. See how the chain effect can ripple like ripples from throwing a rock in a pond?
They do not allow men to teach women how to be feminine, chaste or how to be submissive. They are afraid to lose the support of the one who writes the checks to their programs, churches, counseling sessions, books, lectures, TV, radio.
Think about it. If you had an audience of teenagers and told them they can have pizza every night, stay up late, neglect homework, cleaning, being respectful, etc. they would buy your idea and thus you have a class of people in rebellion…. This is not JUST feminism, but the Female Imperative. They do not want to be accountable for doing something or NOT doing something.
They want the male gender to take full responsibility for THEIR decisions and not be held accountable for their decisions.
Your wife left you? You did something wrong.. You left your wife? You are horrible.
Of course the government supports this outright.
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“The problem is when you immediately go to your strawman of “shouldn’t/can’t have sex after childbirth”…. NO $&**? Instead of thinking there might me an alternative you jump into thinking sex with your vigina instead of realizing fulfilling your husband’s desire so that he isn’t tempted.”
First of all, I brought that up because Jonadab was saying that the only acceptable reason for a couple to abstain from sex was by mutual consent in order to pray and fast, and his responses to Anna’s points that there may be legitimate reasons to abstain, such as directly after childbirth, made it sound like he thought that husbands and wives should go back to sex immediately post partum. I assumed that he meant vaginal sex because Anna had said a few times that she thought that wives should still try to satisfy their husbands in other ways during that time. He clarified what he meant when I asked him directly, so I’ll acknowledge that I misunderstood. However, I think that it was pretty understandable that Anna and I misunderstood him.
Second of all, we’ve both mentioned giving oral sex and hand jobs as alternatives to which wives should turn if they can’t give their husband vaginal sex for medical reasons in every single comment that we’ve posted on the subject. In fact, my first comment on the this post included a question to BGR about oral sex, and another one of my comments (in response to larryzb) agreed that it can be a very intimate experience for a wife to give oral sex to her husband.
“Can a man go a few days? Yes, as much as you can go without him talking or listening to you.”
Lol. You act as though I’d want to go a few days without having sex. The only reason that I’d want that was if I was medically incapable of doing otherwise or if I was deathly ill. Also, my conversations with my husband often involve him spending an hour or two telling me about an idea that he’s come up with, narrating a story about an adventure that he and his friends had, or explaining the finer points of bicycle mechanics to me while I ask questions and occasionally provide input.
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Of course it started at the Fall, but you get the idea.
2 Tim 3:6 is what you are witnessing and God warned us.
Biblical Gender Roles 
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