A Biblical Guide to Seducing Your Husband

For a woman, the difference between “slutty” and “sexy” is one word – Marriage. Proverbs 5:19 tells husbands to be ravished with their wife’s love. For a man to be ravished he must be seduced.

I know a lot of Christian women may be not like the use of the word “seduce”.  This word is often associated with people luring others into illicit sexual relations that violate God’s law.

But here is a key Biblical truth that every Christian wife must grasp.  Sexual seduction outside of marriage is sinful but sexual seduction inside marriage is righteous.

For more on why a wife seducing her husband in marriage is not only not sinful, but required, see my article entitled “Why God wants you to seduce your husband”.

The Scriptures tell us this regarding erotic (sexual love) in marriage:

“18 Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth.

19 Let her be as the loving hind and pleasant roe; let her breasts satisfy thee at all times; and be thou ravished always with her love.

Proverbs 5:19 (KJV)

But how can you as a Christian wife show erotic love toward your husband? In other words, how do you go about seducing your husband?

While Proverbs 5:19 gives the mandate for wives to seduce their husbands – it does not give you the example of how to do it. Instead we must look to the Song of Solomon to find the examples of how a wife can seduce her husband.

With that being said below are several principles take from the Song of Solomon that will help guide in ways to seduce your husband.

Seduction Principle #1 – Ravish him with your desire for him

“By night on my bed I sought him whom my soul loveth…”

Song of Solomon 3:1 (KJV)

Seduction starts with desire.  You can’t seduce a man to whom you show no desire.  Think about it another way from your perspective as a woman.  If you are like 99 percent of women you want your husband to sit down and talk with you.  If your husband sits down to talk and acts like he really does not want to but he has too is that satisfying for you? Of course, it is not. In the same way as a wife you need to cultivate a sexual desire for your husband.

Seduction Principle #2 – Ravish him with your eyes

“Thou hast ravished my heart, my sister, my spouse; thou hast ravished my heart with one of thine eyes, with one chain of thy neck.”

Song of Solomon 4:9 (KJV)

Are you one of those women that says to your husband when he gives you “the look” – “I know that look and you aren’t getting any today!” Or do you flirt back with your eyes? Would you even consider starting the flirting with your eyes? This is what is called for as part of seducing and ravishing your husband.

You could be at a friend or family members house.  You could be sitting in some boring school meeting for your kids.  You could be in line at the grocery store together. All it takes is a look to stoke the fire and ravish your husband’s heart!

Seduction Principle #3 – Ravish him with your lips and your tongue

“Thy lips, O my spouse, drop as the honeycomb: honey and milk are under thy tongue;”

Song of Solomon 4:11 (KJV)

Do not underestimate the powerful effect that your kisses can have on your husband.  Kissing is a powerful teasing mechanism to seduce your husband and it is also an essential part of the sexual act itself.  I have heard of women who rarely if ever kiss their husbands except to give him a kiss on the cheek. And how unnatural and unloving is it that a couple could have sexual relations and never kiss in this most intimate way the entire time? Yet this happens far too often in many Christian bedrooms.  The Song of Solomon shows us that Christian women are to be letting their husbands get some tongue action! Yep right there we see French kissing in the Bible.

Seduction Principle #4 – Ravish him with your body parts

“My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice… O my dove, that art in the clefts of the rock, in the secret places of the stairs, let me see thy countenance…”

Song of Solomon 2:9 & 14a(KJV)

The allusion here in Song of Solomon 2:9 is that of her husband looking through windows at her or looking threw a wood screen that had vines on it.  He was basically peeping at his wife.  And guess what? It is perfectly ok for a man to peep at his wife anytime he wishes!

I could have titled this section “Ravish him with your beauty” but that would not have driven home the point that needs to be made to women. Women tend to see a man’s physical attraction in holistic terms where men see women as a collection of parts.  It is routine for men to say “she has nice breasts, but her rear end is not as great” or “she has great legs but she is flat chested”.  Women have a harder time breaking down men in this way and this is probably one of the hardest things for women to understand about the male nature.  In fact this idea of men breaking women down by their various body parts infuriates many women.

So if I would have said “Ravish him with your beauty” and you are a typical woman you are thinking wear nice dresses, slacks, blouses, do your makeup and and wear your hair nice and to you as a woman that makes sense.  While your husband appreciates all those things you do – those are not things that will cause him to be ravished by you.

You want to ravish your husband with your beauty? When you are wearing that pretty blouse and slacks – randomly pull up your shirt and show him your breasts. Sometimes instead of wearing that dainty blouse and pants you should find a nice tight pair of jeans or shorts(if it is warm) and a tight fitting V-neck T-shirt that will accentuate your breasts and reveal a little cleavage and make sure you tease him with your cleavage.  Tease him by “accidentally” dropping something in front of him and bend over in front of him in those tight jeans or shorts.

Want to transform that long tee shirt you wear to bed and around the house? It is easy – don’t wear underwear.  Who will know but him and you? And surprise him by pulling it up to reveal what you have hidden from him.

The husband of the Song of Solomon like all men asks his wife to “let me see thy countenance”. Your husband wants to see your form! Just the sight of you brings him great pleasure.

Let him see you getting dressed and undressed in your room.  Let him see you in that towel as you get out of the shower – invite him to talk about something and then “accidentally” drop your towel in front of him.

And let’s not forget lingerie.  Men love nudity but they also love variety.  Lingerie gives the man variety.  Really lingerie is like putting a lattice over your body – it lets him catch glimpses without seeing the full view until it is time. Men love this!

I want to come back to what I talked about earlier about wearing sexy clothes.  A lot of Christian women dress like old ladies the moment they dress go outside the bedroom because they have had a false ideology concerning modesty drilled into their head. Modesty in the Bible does not mean what many think today as “non-sexual” and “non-arousing”. It means “appropriate to the occasion”. See these articles “What does modesty mean in I Timothy 2:9?” and “Does God want a wife’s beauty hidden from the World?” for more on this subject.  It will really change your perspective if you look at what the Scriptures really have to say on the subject.

And hopefully after reading that you as a wife will feel more confident in dressing sexy for your husband inside the bedroom as well as outside the bedroom so that you can be doing everything you can on a regular basis to visually ravish(romance) your husband.

Seduction Principle #5 – Ravish him by tasting of his apple tree

“As the apple tree among the trees of the wood, so is my beloved among the sons. I sat down under his shadow with great delight, and his fruit was sweet to my taste.”

Song of Solomon 2:3 (KJV)

In ancient middle eastern poetry, the apple tree was a euphemism for a man’s genitals. The image that the woman “sitting under his shadow” portrays is that of a man standing over top of his wife with his shadow over her and her down below him performing Fellatio (oral sex on a man).  The Scriptures tell us she did this “with great delight” or in other words with enthusiasm and desire.  What is the fruit of his tree? It is his semen. The woman says of her husband’s semen that it was “sweet to my taste”.

A lot of women are reluctant about performing fellatio on their husbands but the fact is that it is very difficult to seduce and ravish your husband without doing this.  Most men do not even understand their own feelings about their desire for fellatio from their wives but they are there even if buried deeply for some. When a woman kneels before her husband and performs fellatio on him and completes the act this is a show of submission, acceptance and sacrifice toward him.

A wife shows her submission to her husband when she kneels before him and takes his “apple tree” in her mouth.

A wife shows her full acceptance of her husband when she does this act with “great delight” showing her husband that she craves the “sweet” taste of his fruit.

A wife shows her sacrificial spirit when after performing fellatio on her husband to its natural completion she asks for nothing in return.

In this way, the act of fellatio is a powerful and spiritual act that a wife performs toward her husband. There are few things in this world that will ravish a man’s heart for his wife like the sacrificial act of fellatio we have just described.

But this does not mean fellatio must always be a one-way transaction.  Fellatio can be and should be a regular part of sexual relations between a man and his wife both as foreplay or as way to climax after regular intercourse.

Seduction Principle #6 – Ravish him by inviting him to taste of your pomegranate

“I would lead thee, and bring thee into my mother’s house, who would instruct me: I would cause thee to drink of spiced wine of the juice of my pomegranate.

Song of Solomon 8:2 (KJV)

In the same way that the apple tree was a euphemism for a man’s genitals in ancient middle eastern erotic poems so too the pomegranate was one of the euphemisms for a woman’s genitals.

Many women think of Cunnilingus (oral sex on a woman) as something that is simply for their own pleasure.  In other words, their husband is only doing it to please them and he gets little to nothing out of the act. But this could not be further from the truth in most cases. Because men are such physical beings they are often drawn to perform cunnilingus on their wives and this gives a man great pleasure to experience his wife’s body in this way. In the following passage the husband of the Song of Solomon expresses his desire to perform cunnilingus on his wife:

“Until the day break, and the shadows flee away, I will get me to the mountain of myrrh, and to the hill of frankincense.”

Song of Solomon 4:6 (KJV)

The “mountain” and the “hill” represent the woman’s pubic mound and this is speaking of her genitals.  Literally he is saying he wants to perform oral sex on his wife all night long – he loves the scent of her vagina and compares it to very expensive good smelling things.

It is unfortunate that there are some women that actually have phobias about their husbands performing cunnilingus on them.  They see their vulva and vagina as “unclean” and not just at “that time of the month”. Others have been taught that God only allows vaginal intercourse and nothing else and in doing this they are denying themselves and their husbands a great tool that can be used to ravish his heart for her.

Seduction Principle #7 – Ravish him by opening yourself to him

I rose up to open to my beloved; and my hands dropped with myrrh, and my fingers with sweet smelling myrrh, upon the handles of the lock.”

Song of Solomon 5:5 (KJV)

If you have not figured out by now, the Song of Solomon is a very erotic book. It speaks of sexuality between a husband and wife in very free terms as God meant it to be.  It has constant allusions to the bodily fluids that are exchanged between a man and woman.  Again, here as in other passages throughout the Song of Solomon it compares a woman’s vaginal secretions to myrrh.  Why are the woman’s hands literally dripping with her own vaginal secretions? It is because she was touching her own vagina moving the fluids in and out around her vulva.

This literally has the picture of a woman who is completely comfortable with her own body and she is opening herself to her beloved – spreading her legs and then using her fingers to open her vagina bringing its fluids out for her husband to see.

I realize what I have just said sounds disgusting to some women. If you have been raised in a prudish home where sex was never spoken of this may sound shocking. For others, it simply does not compute and the reason again is that most women approach sex primarily from the relational aspect with the physical aspect being a pleasant by-product.  They are thinking to themselves – “I would not find it attractive if I walked in my bedroom and saw my husband spread eagle playing with himself so how in the world he finds me spread eagle touching myself attractive?”

And that ladies, is one of the many ways we can prove that men and women approach sex very differently.  But the fact remains that men LOVE it when their wives “open” themselves to their husbands as their fingers drip with “sweet smelling myrrh”.

Both this principle as well as the previous principle dealing with not only allowing, but inviting your husband to  drink “the juice” of your “pomegranate” will require you to truly have not just overall body confidence but confidence in your vulva and vagina. You have to truly let go of any insecurities you have in this area and fully present yourself to your husband in this regard.

Seduction Principle #8 – Ravish him with your voice

“…let me hear thy voice; for sweet is thy voice…”

Song of Solomon 2:14b (KJV)

Do you know how to whisper sweet nothings in your husband’s ear? While a husband might like to hear a soft whispered “I love you” that is not what will ravish him.  No – the sweet nothings that will ravish your husband is “I can’t wait to get home and do [fill in the blank] to you” or “I can’t wait to get home and you do [fill in the blank] to me”.

Look at the speech here from the woman of Song of Solomon toward her husband.  She has literally told him that she loves to sit in the shade of his “apple tree” (his penis) and she take thought his fruit(semen) was sweet to her taste.

As we previously showed the woman of Song of Solomon literally invites her husband to “to drink of spiced wine of the juice of my pomegranate” (Song of Solomon 8:2). In addition to this she invites her husband to “blow upon my garden, that the spices thereof may flow out. Let my beloved come into his garden, and eat his pleasant fruits.” (Song of Solomon 4:16)

Guess what ladies – God wants you to follow the example of the woman of the Song of Solomon by talking sexy to your husband! Text him sexy messages.  Call him at lunch and tell him what you want to do later that evening.  Notice I said “sexy” and not “dirty” – and that is because in marriage sexual talk between a husband and wife is just that – sexy and it in no way is dirty.

Conclusion

As I said at the beginning of this article – For a woman, the difference between “slutty” and “sexy” is one word – Marriage.

The Bible compares a man’s sexual desire for his wife to the purity of desiring water from one’s own well (Proverbs 5:15).  We see the purity of sex in marriage attested to again in the New Testament:

“Marriage is honourable in all, and the bed undefiled: but whoremongers and adulterers God will judge.”

Hebrew 13:4 (KJV)

We have shown examples from the Song of Solomon of a wife using all her God given feminine charms to seduce or “ravish” her husband as Proverbs 5:19 commands.

We see a woman using her attitude, her eyes, her lips, her body and her words to seduce her husband.  We even see her speaking in very explicit sexual terms to her husband. She seduces him with glimpses of her body throughout the day and the week knowing that each glimpse brings pleasure and joy to her husband. We see her taking great pleasure in giving her husband oral sex and she cultivates a desire for his semen. We see her inviting him into his garden and for him to drink of her pomegranate.  She freely opens herself to him and is not shy to touch herself in his presence knowing how much pleasure this brings him.

So as a Christian woman reading this you have to ask yourself what is holding you back from following the example of the woman of the Song of Solomon in seducing your husband? Was it how you were raised? Were you taught that sex was dirty? Were you taught that women were not supposed to desire sex?

Maybe you see sex in more romantic and relational terms and you see this very physical, visual, sweaty and fluid filled view of sex as “base” or “nasty”.  But is that how God frames it in his Word?

The Bible compares the Christian life to a race.  Men and women have different races to run based on our God given gender roles .  For you as a Christian woman, part of your race involves you following God’s command in Proverbs 5:19 to ravish your husband.  So, you need to ask yourself – what is hindering you in this part of your race?

“Wherefore seeing we also are compassed about with so great a cloud of witnesses, let us lay aside every weight, and the sin which doth so easily beset us, and let us run with patience the race that is set before us”

Hebrews 12:1 (KJV)

The truth is that for most women reading this one of two things will be holding you back from following this guide based on the Song of Solomon.  Those two things are Fear and Pride.  You might be afraid to open yourself sexually to your husband in the ways I have described. You might have too much pride getting in the way and you may be telling yourself that the things I mentioned here are degrading to women.

But the Bible tells us this regarding fear and pride:

“There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.”

1 John 4:18 (KJV)

“But he giveth more grace. Wherefore he saith, God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble.

James 4:6 (KJV)

Perfect your love for your husband by throwing off the spiritual weight of fear in this sexual arena. If you let go of your pride God will give you the grace and ability to bless your husband in the ways we have mentioned here.

And let me mention one last word ladies. You should ravish and seduce your husband because God commands it of you and because you recognize that God made you for your husband.  But do you know that often times when we do what God commands we will sometimes reap direct benefits as a result of that obedience?

“Delight thyself also in the Lord: and he shall give thee the desires of thine heart.”

Psalm 37:4 (KJV)

When you delight yourself in God by following his command to ravish your husband do you know what just might happen? You may see a passion come from your husband that you have not seen in years or maybe you never saw because you never truly acted on all these principles I have outlined here.

All over the world there are women laying in their beds at night wondering why there is no passion from their husband. “Where is his affection and his feelings toward me?” they may ask themselves night after night but most of these same women rarely asks themselves another very important question which is “What have I been doing to evoke affection and feelings in my husband toward me?”

What if the modern world has it all backwards? What if the world’s formula that “men must romance women first and earn sex from their women” is wrong? What if they are getting the cart before the horse?  What if it is the woman that must ravish her husband’s heart first to cause him to have affection and passion towards her?

Throw off the world’s way. Throw off pride and fear and go home and ravish your husband today and follow the example of the woman of the Song of Solomon.

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93 thoughts on “A Biblical Guide to Seducing Your Husband

  1. A great article! I know its intended for the ladies, but I would issue this suggestion to the men: Make it a little easier on your wives by staying, or getting, fit. Women, like men, have preferences, and more than likely your wife would find it much easier to try and seduce a fit and healthy man over an overweight, slouchy one, in the same way you would find it easier to get turned on by a thin, beautiful woman over an overweight, unkempt one. You don’t have to look like Brad Pitt, but cutting down the belly fat and putting on a little muscle certainly helps.

  2. Great post. It’s really sad how starved most Christian husbands I know are for affection. Given such a sexualized culture, one wouldn’t expect such prudishness to be the norm. However, I’m sure reading SoS like this will bring up flashbacks to former men before their husband.

  3. Great article.

    Unfortunately, my experience has been that sex in a Christian Marriage does not follow what you have outlined.

    I believe the worst part is that some Christians think that the art of seduction is sinful or it is “frowned upon.” I am not sure about all Christians but my experience is there is just an “unsaid norm” about sex and seduction being a no-no to discuss.

    To bad the world has robbed what rightfully belongs to Christians.

  4. I had just posted on another WP blog that it almost seems as though many Christians think that because we are in this world but not of this world that they can ignore certain physical aspects of this world, such as biology. I mean, we still use the bathroom, we still have to eat, we are still affected by gravity, yet a lot of Christians teach that sex, desire and attraction are, almost, below us because they are “of the flesh” (though I don’t think the term directly refers to something physical, so they aren’t using it right).

    When a Christian man gets turned on by a beautiful woman he is told its sinful, and so he pushes the feeling down, prays for forgiveness and looks down at the ground. Christian women aren’t taught to enjoy sex, but instead are told that its just something they should save for after marriage. There’s no teaching being done here, so both parties approach everything with awkwardness. You get married, both of you are horny and go at it like rabbits, then as time goes by you don’t know how to keep the fire going, you just figure the novelty has worn off. Christian men aren’t told to stay fit and healthy to keep their wives aroused. Christian women aren’t told to be flirty and sexy because their husbands like that stuff. Instead they are met with “oh you will get over that stage”, and they give up.

    And just try telling your average church going couple to engage in some sexual tomfoolery. they will look at you like you have onions growing out of your ears, if they don’t just outright friend-disown you.

    Sad stuff.

  5. Unfortunately, Satan has robbed our treasure,what prostitutes are doing today are what we were supposed to do,they know how to seduce that’s why once one caught up with them you fail to forget.Christianity at some point fails to address this in a proper manner.

  6. But what if you can’t have good sex?

    I read the Relevant magazine article you disparaged in your last post and found it really helpful. My husband and I are not sexually compatible. I was a virgin until I married and thought that sex with my husband would be fun and pleasurable but I have found that it is often painful, and always boring.
    Sex was excruciatingly painful during our first six months of marriage. Two doctors and two gynecologist later, I was diagnosed with a disorder of my pelvic floor muscles. As long as I do my exercises, intercourse ranges from mildly painful to merely uncomfortable. I have never been able to stand any form of genital stimulation (it’s painful) so have no desire to ‘open’ myself to my husband, as you put it, or be touched by him.

    I am open to oral but my husband believes such things are “gross” and “worldly” and no amount of pleading, having him read your blog or talking with our pastor (who agrees with you) has changed his mind. I have tried everything I can think of to improve our sex life from reading a half dozen Christian and non Christian books on sex (they didn’t tell me anything I didn’t already know) to seeing a psychologist (in case the problem was psychological) but nothing has helped. The only thing I haven’t done is see a sex therapist because my husband doesn’t want to.

    I have come to the conclusion that maybe not all Christian marriages can have great sex.

  7. Interesting article. I do all these things with enthusiasm for my husband and I genuinely enjoy doing so. My husband is very expressive and affectionate towards me. I found refreshing to see you mention going down on a lady as a pleasurable thing for men, since my husband is actually the prudish one in this area and doesnt like that, but certainly expects me to go down on him! And I do enjoy doing it but I cant help but feel a bit cheated on that one sided arrangement. He also attributes his inability to do so to some jaw issues he has, wish I certainly understand, but whenever the topic about cunninglingus is brought up(not in personal ways, but lets say jokes or others mentioning it), he always shares his distaste for it, honestly making his excuse seem not very legit, but idk, what do you think of this?

  8. Robin,

    I am very sorry to hear about the disorder you have with your pelvic muscles. It sounds like you have really poured an effort into trying to make your sex life better with your husband and you are to be commended for this.

    But here is the truth of the matter the fact is that God designed and meant for men and women to have a great sex life. It is sin which causes problems in our sex lives. In your case it sounds as if your husband is limiting your sex life. Something I mentioned in the post you reference on “Why God wants you to seduce your husband” is that great sex in marriage requires a team effort. A husband can only do so much to make sex great for his wife and a wife can only do so much to make sex great for her husband.

    If your spouse is not willing to work on your sex life and go outside their comfort zone(which is something great sex requires) then it won’t get better.

    So in a way I agree with your conclusion – not all Christian marriages can have great sex – but the reason most of the time is because one or both spouses don’t want to put the effort into making it great. Great sex requires a team effort of the husband and wife working together.

  9. Also I’ve always been intrigued by the reality that slutty flirtatious women are the type of women men adore, favor and want to be with for the most part. Its funny to me how women rather hate and be jealous of these women instead of cultivating inside themselves this behavior and attitude so they can reap the benefits for themselves.

    I personally like being this way, its fun, not degrading, sex is pleasurable to me, and I feel closer to my husband for it, we engage in sexual banter, teasing and flirting from the moment he comes home and it doesnt really stop. Not everyday but close enough.

    Its all in the kind of mindset you have, you can either have a positive one that accepts this reality and enjoys it, or you can hate it and have a negative one and it still wont change the reality.

    Maybe it helps that im younger than my husband,( im 25 hes 35) but he always tells me how lucky he is to be with me, we also have 3 children and my body is not at its best( though I can honestly say I still look good) but yet he tells me im beautiful and he is genuinely into me and our passion is there, the sex is fire between us, and honestly it is because im an active participant when we make love. Im not passive about it, I initiate, and I sincerely enjoy doing it with him. Its true men want to feel wanted too, not just women.

    I always put effort into my looks and keeping myself looking as sexy as I can possibly be around the children.

    It is encouraging that my efforts are rewarded by my husbands affection and attention to me( things he does on his own). And also I have come to grips with the reality that my man will always find other women sexy as well and get turned on by them and maybe even fantasize and it has NOTHING to do with me, Ive even begun to find it endearing, but I know my husband does his best to steer clear of temptation and honors God first.

    Maybe its because I’m more sexually aware, but I cant condemn my man for his sexual urges when I also do the same. I find enjoyable and get turned on to see a muscular man walking around shirtless or get a glimpse of his bulge beneath his pants or shorts. I can also appreciate other womens beauty. Ive also had occasional images or thoughts slip into my mind, if I as a woman have this happen to me, how can I expect him not to? Especially him being a man?

    And you know what it means nothing to me in the end, as I know it means nothing to him.
    Youre right, theres a lot of fear and pride behind lots of women when it comes to sex.

    I was the type of female that would cry to myself when I caught my man LOOKING at another female a little longer than I was comfortable with. Im comfortable with my OWN sexuality now so that has helped me be more comfortable with his, and I’ve let go of this petty jealousy.

    I honestly think the real problem here is womens sexuality has been broken down. For a woman to be like the one in solomon, shes gotta be really sexual in both mind and spirit(something nowadays thats only atttributed to sluts, porn stars and no good women). And I believe God made EVERY woman to be very sexual, but many women have either been robbed of it or reject this. I dont believe women are naturally less interested in sex than men, they just seriously dont understand sex, especially christian women.

    And off topic, but heres one for ladies that have a hard time with men wanting variety. Women like quality, not variety right?. It doesnt do much for us to imagine being with multiple hot men, but it definitely does something for us to imagine being with a man that provides things another man cant, this includes physical and materialistic things. As much as men hate the notion and label these women as “major sluts” or “gold diggers” women want to be provided for in the best way possible. We want the best man out there. Onky feminists soupd disagree.

    The stronger, more handsome, more capable, more gifted, smarter, “bigger” and yes even richer man. Having fantasies of being bedded by such a man and being with him is typical among women, yet not one woman bats an eye at such things and it is no way less hurtful to a mans ego, especially your husbands, to know you desire such things in your own heart. But yet none of these things are relevant to your established love and connection you have with your husband nor does it change your commitmment and faithfulness and neither should a mans desire for other women change any of that.

    And its not like your husband will actually go and marry the girl he found hot and actually wanna provide for her too and DEAL with ANOTHER hormonal woman lol most men cant handle their wife, let alone another one lol, so yea the most he can do is fantasize, and really its no different than how ladies fantasize, if both parties knew, it would hurt.

    Like for example, if youre a man, and you have this neighbor, who has a better car than you, and its the kind of car you have always wanted, and this man is also better looking than you, hes taller more muscular and has a great face, im sure every man would agree with me that it would make you uncomfortable or get you extremely jealous if you found out your wife thinks of him as she touches herself and secretly wished she was with him at the moment instead and was his wife.

    Yet the pain would be unfounded, because its natural and if shes truly committed to God, she wont stray or sin and she wont lust in her heart and allow this to get out of hand. Therefore its meaningless for her to have this desire and it WILL fade away with time. Ladies, this is what happens with men, however more often but its just the same, unfounded and meaningless.

    I know a lot of women fear men looking at other women because in most cases it directly hurts the intimacy they have with their partner in real ways. But the issue is the lack of intimacy in that relationship and feeling secure in the relationship, not him getting turned on by some random female.

  10. My previous post got too long so im finishing it here.
    Also its off topic a bit, but it definitely helps for a man to romance a woman and get fit too.

    I dont mean it as a trade off for sex, because she should desire sex on her own, without any motivation, and she should enjoy making love to her man sincerely. But romance is a womans indicator of love, like sex is a mans indicator of love.

    And im referring to a very specific kind of romance, the verbal and physical kind.

    Men will go long ways with women when they are able to hug and kiss a woman and tell her shes hot and beautiful without dragging her to bed right after saying that.

    Its giving the woman what she needs every now and then that could change things for many.

    You wouldnt tell a woman to stop wanting communication with her man right? So you shouldnt tell her she shouldnt want romance within the marriage. It does take effort from the man because it might not be a natural thing for him, but the effort is worth it for the long run and marriage IS for the long run, so I believe its worth it. And a woman does NEED to understand that men view romance DIFFERENTLY. Love IS tide to sex, and flirting and teasing a man with your body and sexy words is what romantic words and hugging/tender kisses does for a woman. It connects you to your spouse.

    And if a woman wants a satisfying relationship she NEEDS to put in the effort for the long run. Even though women do all the time, a woman should NEVER tell her man that his need for sex has got to go! Ladies if you desire security, intimacy and communication with your man, this equals to your man wanting sex, respect/submission, and appreciation. Bitterness has got to go! It doesnt allow for a submissive soft and flirty heart to be born.

  11. RandomGirl,

    You have a wise insight into the male nature that is well beyond your years. I want to zoom on some of your very wise statements that women can learn from.

    Your Statement:

    “Its all in the kind of mindset you have, you can either have a positive one that accepts this reality and enjoys it, or you can hate it and have a negative one and it still wont change the reality.”

    One of the biggest problems with women’s modern negative view of male sexuality is the fact that they utterly do NOT accept reality and you hit the nail on the head. We have to accept the reality of human nature and the reality of the feminine and masculine natures. These natures can be very contradictory to each other times and we have to accept and work with those differences.

    Your Statement:

    “Youre right, theres a lot of fear and pride behind lots of women when it comes to sex.
    I was the type of female that would cry to myself when I caught my man LOOKING at another female a little longer than I was comfortable with. Im comfortable with my OWN sexuality now so that has helped me be more comfortable with his, and I’ve let go of this petty jealousy.
    I honestly think the real problem here is womens sexuality has been broken down. For a woman to be like the one in solomon, shes gotta be really sexual in both mind and spirit(something nowadays thats only atttributed to sluts, porn stars and no good women). And I believe God made EVERY woman to be very sexual, but many women have either been robbed of it or reject this. I dont believe women are naturally less interested in sex than men, they just seriously dont understand sex, especially christian women.”

    You are absolutely right that the keys to a woman having a better sex life with her husband is that she needs to fully accept his sexuality, confront her own jealousy, and then fully embrace her own sexuality. She needs to let go of her fear and pride and just allow herself to enjoy her husband as he is resting safely in his love for her.

    Very wise words.

  12. RandomGirl,

    Your Statement:

    “Men will go long ways with women when they are able to hug and kiss a woman and tell her shes hot and beautiful without dragging her to bed right after saying that. Its giving the woman what she needs every now and then that could change things for many.”

    I agree with you that men need to hug their wives, kiss them and tell they love them and that they are beautiful, hot or whatever she wants to hear. And also they need to do these things without always having do drag them to bed five minutes later.

    But as you alluded to in your comment this is a two way street. In so many marriages not long after the marriage starts the woman stops flirting with her husband and doing the sexy things she did at the beginning. She stops seducing him or she feels she should not have to any more. Then months or years after she stops seducing him she wonders where the passion has gone.

    So again I do not disagree with you that women need communication, love and support from their husbands and men need sex, respect and submission from their wives. What you are describing is the cycle of love in marriage. But the question is where does the cycle begin? I contend that our modern world has it backwards.

    And let me be very clear on something most people in our modern culture have no concept of. In the Bible there are multiple types of love. There is family love(instinctual love of a parent for a child or a child for a parent), there is friendship/emotional love(feelings love), in Song of Solomon we see erotic love(sexual love) and then we have unconditional love(Agape love). Agape love is the strongest type of love because it is a love based in the will and based on an unconditional commitment to do certain things for the object of one’s Agape love.

    So it is true in one sense that husbands love their wives first as God loved us first with an Agape love. The phileo(feelings love) may have proceeded the marriage the form of his sexual attraction to his wife. But in marriage the man who is duty based keeps the Agape love going and woman who is feelings based keeps the phileo love going.

    The cycle of phileo love for thousands of years that was full accepted by most societies and I have argued is Biblical based on Proverbs 5:19 was this:

    Woman seduces her husband and this produces passionate and romantic feelings in him toward her. So the cycle once started by the woman the cycle continues as he shows her passion and romantic gestures in reaction to her sexual love toward him.

    This is the now the modern cycle of love we are told supposedly works:
    Man romances woman telling her how great and wonderful she is talking with her all in hopes that she may give up the goods and have sex with him and he takes whatever she will give him. He keeps coming back giving her compliments and doing nice things for her hoping she will actually have some kind of sex with him.

    I am arguing that while men and women both have different needs – our modern culture has the cycle of love completely backwards when it comes to affectionate and feelings based love.

  13. I submit to you that the modern cycle of love that is taught in evangelicalism is: the man initiates, the woman plays coy, the man ups the ante with more romantic gestures, housework or gifts and the woman evaluates her feelings toward him considering his enhanced offer she may then hold out for more chore-play, gifts or dinners and only when he has proved his love and passed her fitness tests then she can reward him with her love. In essence men initiate and women reject until the price is right! One comedian has joked that seduction and foreplay for him means installing a new hardwood floor. Focus on the Family, Family Life Today, Covenant Eyes and Al Mohler all give this their seal of approval.

  14. BGR
    You know I get what youre saying, and I agree.
    My only nitpick I have is that this is not really about who seduces who first, but rather why women should seduce in the first place and why they dont. Because in reality its fun to seduce as its fun to be seduced. I dont see why there has to be a someone who does it first. Your article still boils down to why women dislike seducing and sex in general and how they should be more sexual beings and be comfortable with it like the woman in solomon is.

    Heres my take on this,
    these women are truly ignorant about what to do when they feel passionate about a man and what their sexual duty to their husband actually looks like.
    Some truly think that the man is the only one that can express himself sexually. So they give in to sex but they feel awkward themselves sexually so they can never flirt or initiate.
    Others think sex is a game of conquest, like animals do, and he must prove his worth over and over and they think this is what a males role is
    Others are so given unto their feelings, that they think a man has to prove how he feels about her in order to feel safe having sex with him. Once he stops she thinks he no longer loves her and she lies to herself by believing hes only using her for sex, not realizing that sex is love to him.
    Others have been cheated on by men who left them for flirtatious slutty women, reinforcing in their mind that these type of women are evil and they harbor scorn toward a flirty sexually confident women
    Then theres a multitude of sins that can have a lot to do with it,
    sexual traumas, past promiscuity, bitterness and resentment from dealing with abusive men, made to feel shame for openly expressing herself sexually by men, insecurities etc.

    Heres also more confusion and lies that society creates around men and sex;
    -Men will do anything for sex, so if youre smart, take advantage of this.
    -Men take for granted easy women (women who give up sex for nothing in return) and will use them so make sex hard to get
    -Men take women for granted within a marriage, so dont let that happen by withholding sex from him.
    -Men only treat women right when they want sex, so test your man to make sure his “love” is real by making him prove he loves you without getting any.
    -Your body your choice
    -Men love to chase, and get bored when they finally have you, so dont get comfortable in your marriage, keep making him chase so he stays interested, or else he will leave
    -If you give him sex everyday, it will make him get bored of you quickly, make sex less frequent so he desires it more from you
    -sex and love are different from each other
    -only prostitutes and dirty women act slutty, dignified women are above such behavior

    Women are bombared by these false teachings on a daily basis from all sorts of places.
    And the sad part is, given how sinful this world is, many women get these things confirmed to them based on experiences that happen to coincide with this, so it only reinforces the belief in them.
    Instead of helping their wife understand herself sexually and being safe for her to learn and grow within their marriage, many men openly compare their women to other women they like or prefer, hurting their ego, they mock them, accuse them, blame them and take out their sexual frustrations on them by verbally abusing them over it, putting more strain on an already bad situation. Or they give in to their womens selfish whims and dont confront or rather just cheat than deal with the issue in their marriage.
    In the end both parties have a lot to do with why theres so many women that fail sexually and its not always about control or manipulation even though to a man it may seem that way.
    It might seem like the man once again has to do for the female something in order for him to get what he truly wants in his marriage. But we have to be real about sin in this world, and how sinful people are, and how imperfect. When you marry you also agree to carry each others burdens. It would be amazing if men and women just knew and accepted their God given roles and performed accordingly, but thats only wishful thinking.
    The truth is womens sexuality has been under attack for years now and has been utterly destroyed, and now mens sexuality is following the same destructive path. Blaming feminist and modern age teachings is not the only reason for why women are unable to fullfill their godly duty to their husbands.

  15. Jonadab-the-Rechabite on May 2, 2017 at 9:07 pm
    I submit to you that the modern cycle of love that is taught in evangelicalism is: the man initiates, the woman plays coy, the man ups the ante with more romantic gestures, housework or gifts and the woman evaluates her feelings toward him considering his enhanced offer she may then hold out for more chore-play, gifts or dinners and only when he has proved his love and passed her fitness tests then she can reward him with her love. In essence men initiate and women reject until the price is right! One comedian has joked that seduction and foreplay for him means installing a new hardwood floor. Focus on the Family, Family Life Today, Covenant Eyes and Al Mohler all give this their seal of approval.

    Im surprised you actually think Focus on the Family and Family Life condone women controlling and manipulating men with sex and love.
    They dont agree that women must be served and romanced and wooed first before the man gets anything from her.
    I listen to them all the time and yes while they talk from a female perspective a lot, they also talk from the males.
    I have heard on there many women who testify how they were the “strong willfull wife” and they were not submissive and how God changed their hearts and they asked forgiveness from their husbands and began to practice the Lords teachings and honoring their man and serving him right.
    Many women on there talk about submission and meeting the mans needs and sex.
    The problem is you might be generalizing the issues they bring up. There’s no reason for you to think they have some agenda against males.
    They have always been pretty fair, and teach for both sides.
    I have actually learned a lot about submission and honor by listening to them. If you could elaborate how they dont do this that would help.

  16. @ RandomGirl

    FOTF advocates often for a “christian” flavor of feminist rebellion. For instance, the “happy wife – happy life” theme is common which is really just “men submit to your wives” worldly wisdom. Then there is the men are microwaves women are crockpots lie which is an excuse for women to be mentally and emotionally unprepared to for intimacy and excuses their lack of enthusiasm, the embracing of the “Duck and let God hit your husband” , the support of the “Love Dare” divorce threat to get the man you always wanted and then there is the women who break their vows are heroes theme (a favorite of Glenn Stanton’s virtue signalling) and the emotional validation over scriptural exegesis methods. My ears may be more critical and my experiences may have colored my view, but in my eyes FOTF is to the Biblical family what John Boehner was to conservative politics, a pretend defender that surrendered and refused to fight in the fundamental battles.

    When was the last time you heard them make a hard and unpopular stand like:
    – Frivorce is evil and the marriage vows are only allowed to be dissolved under a very narrow set of circumstances, so stay and make it work. Stop dreaming about life with another or without him.
    – God commands that wives are to submit to your own husband in all things even to the point of being a “door mat”
    – If your husband isn’t leading, it is probably because you haven’t been following and are contentions.
    – Wives you are helpers not partners, your husband is your head and representative of Christ on earth.
    – Seek a happy home by being a joy to your husband and finding joy in pleasing him.
    – You are not entitled to woman subspeak, say what you mean and don’t expect him to read your mind.
    – Are head coverings required as a modern practice or just the principle of men under God, women under men?
    – Your body belongs to your husband, you cannot say “NO” to his advances.
    – If your husband is having to raise his voice at you to get you to cooperate, why did you not heed his quieter voice at first.
    – If you are fighting with your husband, you are almost always sinning against him.
    – Dress to please your husband not enhance your social life.
    – How to keep the home and find joy in house work
    – How to fear and respect your husband, even when he is struggling to provide.
    – Gossip, backbiting, whispering, busy bodies why women love these sins.

    I have no doubt that over the many decades of their broadcasts that some of these have been touched, but they in no way characterize the broadcasts or the culture at FOTF. Keep listening, but tune your ears to scriptural discernment as you hear ask is that really what scripture says?

  17. RandomGirl,
    I agree with BGR that you have displayed wisdom here that is very impressive and many women could learn greatly from what you have shared. I would however like to comment on two things you said.

    “My only nitpick I have is that this is not really about who seduces who first, but rather why women should seduce in the first place and why they dont. Because in reality its fun to seduce as its fun to be seduced. I dont see why there has to be a someone who does it first.”

    Another reason that the woman should do this first is because it goes with her (subordinate) role. In the military, it is the subordinate that initiates a courtesy to a superior (rank) such as saluting. It is done as a sign of respect to someone who holds a higher rank. In the same way, in a marriage, the wife is called to submit to her husband in everything and to reverence him and it is a sign of respect that she would initiate the courtesy first. This also has practical implications in how that plays out in married life.

    You also mentioned how important it is for a husband to “romance” his wife and you used the examples of non-sexual affection like hugging, kissing, and sweet words. From my point of view, a wife has much more control over this than she realizes and it also, is tied to her role (her position in the marriage). I will not pretend to speak for all men here but I think that it will hold true for most (especially Christians men). If my wife is serving in her role as the Bible instructs; she is submitting to me in everything, she is cooperative and is seeking to be the best helper to me that she can be, she is showing me the proper respect (reverence), and is meeting my sexual needs, it MAKES ME WANT to show her how loved and cherished and valuable and appreciated she is to me and that will result in more genuine, spontaneous, heartfelt… hugs, kisses and sweet (truthful) words being whispered in her ears, and being proclaimed at the gates for everyone to hear! The Proverb 31 woman was not cherished for who she was as a person (just because she existed), she was valued, cherished, praised and honored for what she DID. (Proverbs 31:28-31) says “Her children arise and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praises her: “Many women do noble things, but you surpass them all.” Charm is deceptive, and beauty is fleeting; but a woman who fears the Lord is to be praised. Honor her for all that her hands have done, and let her works bring her praise at the city gate.”

    But the opposite also holds true. When a wife is NOT doing as she should, but instead, she is being contentious and rebellious and disrespectful to her husband; she is being more of a hindrance than a help, this has just the opposite effect on her husband and his responses to her because now, she is being “as rottenness to his bones”. Even if that husband hugged and kissed and forced himself to say sweet things to his (rebellious, disrespectful, contentious) wife, it would all be a lie and in doing so, he would just be encouraging more bad behavior from her. I have found myself saying more and more these days, that wives “hold the keys” to their marriages. The Bible says: (Proverbs 14:1) “Every wise woman builds her household, but a foolish woman tears it down with her own hands.”

    Men are commanded in the Bible to Love (agape) their wives. If wives want the phileo (friendship) and eros (romantic) types of love, it comes as a result of their actions and attitudes toward their husbands. They receive agape because God commands it, they receive phileo and eros because they earn it by being obedient to the Word of God. There is a theme throughout the entire Bible where God says: “If you obey Me I will bless you but if you disobey Me I will curse you”. It really is just that simple and you women hold the keys.

    All that to say that I believe that a wife should be doing all of these things (including seducing her husband) first because it is appropriate for her to do so because of her (God ordained) position and role in the marriage. If you found yourself face to face with Jesus, would you expect Him to give you a big hug first and then you would fall on your face and bow before Him? Or would you bow on your face before Him first and then have Him raise you to your feet and give you a big hug?

  18. Jonadab,

    I think for the most part I agree with your assessment of FOTF and I also agree with that list of things you gave they should be teaching but are not. They do teach on submission and letting boys be boys but only to a certain point. I grew up in Churches that used a lot of focus on the family materials and it was not until years later that when I looked closely at it I saw one of the biggest problems with them is they teach a very shallow view of submission and Biblical masculinity and femininity. They just dip their toes in the shallow end of these topics without ever going deep and teaching men and women the difficult truths in these important doctrinal areas.

    They also have a false teaching(I can’t remember where it is) that equates marriage to the Trinity when marriage is always compared Scripturally to the relationship between God and man – not between God and himself.

    I agree there was some good that came out of FOTF but there is a lot of feminine centric views and feelings based views of marriage buried in their teachings.

  19. Trey,

    Wow! What you said was packed with theological truths and really summarized well what I have been trying to say in this article as well as many other articles on this blog.

    Your Statement:

    “Another reason that the woman should do this first is because it goes with her (subordinate) role. In the military, it is the subordinate that initiates a courtesy to a superior (rank) such as saluting. It is done as a sign of respect to someone who holds a higher rank. In the same way, in a marriage, the wife is called to submit to her husband in everything and to reverence him and it is a sign of respect that she would initiate the courtesy first. This also has practical implications in how that plays out in married life.”

    Amen and Amen. It absolutely matters in God’s order of marriage who goes first in regard to showing affection in marriage. Throughout the Scriptures God consistently talks first to those who are under authority about their duty to their authority and then he talks to the authority figure about their responsibilities to those under their authority. Look at Ephesians 5 and I Peter 3 – God talks to wives first to women about their duties in marriage and then he talks to men about their duties in marriage. Order matters with God.

    Your Statement:

    ” I will not pretend to speak for all men here but I think that it will hold true for most (especially Christians men). If my wife is serving in her role as the Bible instructs; she is submitting to me in everything, she is cooperative and is seeking to be the best helper to me that she can be, she is showing me the proper respect (reverence), and is meeting my sexual needs, it MAKES ME WANT to show her how loved and cherished and valuable and appreciated she is to me and that will result in more genuine, spontaneous, heartfelt… hugs, kisses and sweet (truthful) words being whispered in her ears, and being proclaimed at the gates for everyone to hear!”

    Again you are absolutely correct about most normal men in this regard. Now are there nasty, narcissistic men that no matter what their wives do in submission and in meeting their sexual needs will still be cruel and harsh toward them and will not show them the love you describe? Yes. But they are the minority. The reality is that if wives did what you describe and submitting to their husband, not be contentious with him and seducing him sexually they cannot help but have spontaneous gestures of love just flowing out of them. It is sad that this truth has been lost in our modern female centric society.

    Your Statement:

    ” The Proverb 31 woman was not cherished for who she was as a person (just because she existed), she was valued, cherished, praised and honored for what she DID. (Proverbs 31:28-31) says “Her children arise and call her blessed; her husband also, and he praises her: “Many women do noble things, but you surpass them all.” Charm is deceptive, and beauty is fleeting; but a woman who fears the Lord is to be praised. Honor her for all that her hands have done, and let her works bring her praise at the city gate.””

    This is so true what you have said. How many wives today seek praise from their husbands were none is warranted? They want to praised simply because they breath and occupy the same space with their husbands. They want to be told how wonderful they are as a wife and mother even when they neglect their duties in both these important areas. Praise of one’s wife in the Scriptures is EARNED and it is not unconditional as women falsely believe today.

    Your Statement:

    “Men are commanded in the Bible to Love (agape) their wives. If wives want the phileo (friendship) and eros (romantic) types of love, it comes as a result of their actions and attitudes toward their husbands. They receive agape because God commands it, they receive phileo and eros because they earn it by being obedient to the Word of God. There is a theme throughout the entire Bible where God says: “If you obey Me I will bless you but if you disobey Me I will curse you”. It really is just that simple and you women hold the keys.”

    Again – Amen and Amen. There is a reason why God tells husbands to Apape love their wives in Ephesians 5:25 and he tells wives to phileo love their husbands in Titus 2:4. God has made man(male human beings)in his direct image – God does certain things for us out of his unconditional (Agape) love for us. He sent his son to die for us out of his Agape love for us. He provides for us and protects us out of his Agape love for us. But his affectionate love, his phileo love, his reserved for those who obey him and show affection toward him.

    We are often told that women need phileo love, affectionate love and I don’t disagree with that statement. But God wants woman(who are made in the image of man) to play out the role of mankind in obeying God and showing him affection and by doing these things we receive his affection. In other words, there are some things we don’t have to work for(like our salvation) but there are some things we DO have to work for(like rewards and affection). That is why God tells women in Titus 2:4 to love their husbands(literally be lovers of their husbands) and show their husbands affectionate love because he knows he has designed man to naturally respond to the obedience and affection of his wife with affection toward her. It is so sad that so few women understand this basic concept.

  20. This is a good comment. I have said over and over that if women want to see more “romance” from their husbands then get into their heads with their own girly behavior. A guy who is getting good sex from his wife will find himself thinking about her a lot more often, and most guys will tend to want to do more for their wives when this happens. Using your “girlfriend game” will put you into “girlfriend mode” in your husbands mind. Remember all those things he used to do for you back then, when you were just boyfriend/girlfriend? It will likely not be the exact same as back then, but it will put him in the same mindset! Try it! For women all it takes is a little FREE effort! Act more feminine! Dress more feminine! Be more “girly” and see what happens! There’s no guarantees, but more than likely it will do something!

    (Remember that some men only have so much tolerance for “girly” behavior before they find it annoying, so you may have to find a good balance point between “girlfriend” and “wife”, and when is a good time to apply which)

  21. Jonadab
    YOUR STATEMENT

    When was the last time you heard them make a hard and unpopular stand like:
    – Frivorce is evil and the marriage vows are only allowed to be dissolved under a very narrow set of circumstances, so stay and make it work. Stop dreaming about life with another or without him.(addressed)
    – God commands that wives are to submit to your own husband in all things even to the point of being a “door mat”(somewhat addressed)
    – If your husband isn’t leading, it is probably because you haven’t been following and are contentions.(addressed)
    – Wives you are helpers not partners, your husband is your head and representative of Christ on earth. ( addressed)
    – Seek a happy home by being a joy to your husband and finding joy in pleasing him.(somewhat addressed)
    – You are not entitled to woman subspeak, say what you mean and don’t expect him to read your mind.(addressed)
    – Are head coverings required as a modern practice or just the principle of men under God, women under men?(not sure)
    – Your body belongs to your husband, you cannot say “NO” to his advances.(addressed)
    – If your husband is having to raise his voice at you to get you to cooperate, why did you not heed his quieter voice at first.(addressed)
    – If you are fighting with your husband, you are almost always sinning against him.(somewhat addressed)
    – Dress to please your husband not enhance your social life.(addressed)
    – How to keep the home and find joy in house work(addressed)
    – How to fear and respect your husband, even when he is struggling to provide.(addressed)
    – Gossip, backbiting, whispering, busy bodies why women love these sins.(addressed)

    I have heard them address most of these, (I placed brackets next to each point you made and have sincerely put whether I have heard them address this or not)
    and I dont see a clear favor toward the women in these cases.
    I have heard these issues be brought up several times in the 5 years I’ve been listening to them.
    Bottomline is they have a clear understanding that both men and women are being currently joined in marriage with a host of past sins already surrounding them. They need to touch on many topics that are issues today that wouldnt have been years ago.
    There are many men that fail at providing the agape love God commands from him, many men that come from broken homes and their view of godly authority over a woman is a worldly one, not biblical. There are men who are given unto sins, be it addictions, mental illnesses, abuse, slothness or selfishness.
    These things need to be addressed as well and so they do, and it might seem like they are preaching at men more than women but they are things that cannot be ignored.
    Yes a woman will encourage a man to change by being the kind of woman God has called her to be and THIS is what I mainly hear their point is. How women can change ungodly men by being godly wives, but reality is sometimes you will be stuck with an unbeliever who claims to be “christian” and get nowhere with your submission, these men are blind, and hurting their families, and the children are the ones that suffer the most, and knowing how many come from broken homes it is best to prevent such a thing and so they encourage drastic changes in order to get through to someone. This is not stepping out of line as a submissive wife, this is a necessary step that has actually saved many marriages. It is helping your man get out of sin, and the bible is clear that a believer should never be yoked to an unbeliever. So they preach how they can try to bring him to the Lord and yes the main objective is to “change” the man, but remember, a woman is not just there to please him but to serve him in the highest way, and what could be more God honoring than to encourage him to become a true believer? In order for a woman to get through to a man that sees her as beneath him and stepping out of line just because he doesnt want to face himself, drastic measures must be done. Divorce is not condoned but seperation is, remember these men have not been taught to put others before themselves either, they are selfish and self serving and dont honor God right and are not being Christlike, they do NOT encourage this type of drastic action against a man that is NOT this way.
    God works in drastic measures, and it is in the bible that a wife is to first honor God above her husband, and if her husband causes her to sin against God she is to not submit. God continues to be the ultimate authority over the wife, not the husband. (Even in the garden the Lord questioned Eve directly for her disobedience, He did not get Adam to chastice her for Him)
    Theres too many backgrounds that people come from to generalize their teachings. They tend to preach to a certain type of group and situation on a daily basis.
    Just telling people to follow the bible without considering their individual cases would be foolhardy, and I think they do a good job at trying to talk about all points and cases out there.
    But I will say that yes women need to be taught more to intitiate and not just wait for the man to be right first.
    And men shouldnt be so focused on what kind of wife they have, but instead on being more christlike, remember Gods agape love motivates us to submit to Him, and remember christ is servant like in His ways, not just authoritarian, and when you provide for your wife you ARE serving her too you know.
    But yes many wives care too much about their feelings and not enough on serving the Lord and doing whats right first themselves and putting her mans needs before her own and this needs to be encouraged more.
    Just like a womans submission encourages affection and a man to cherish his wife so does agape love and servant like behavior encourage submission.
    A simple analogy is this:
    you rather serve a tyranical king that only cares about himself and his subjects doing his bidding at all times or a kind wise king that considers others and does whats best for all not just himself?
    What kind of king sounds more like christ?
    Alot of men sound bitter when they complain that wives are not submissive, maybe their attitude might have something to do with it?
    Just like women sound bitter whn they complain about serving a man, maybe her man isnt loving her the way she wants because shes NOT serving just complaining about doing it?
    Its interesting how God works and how both commandments to both sexes requires both do first for the other and when they do the other feels a natural inclination to continue doing what they are commanded to do. Its a role that keeps on giving as long as both parties continue doing first and doing 100 percent.

  22. I see what you mean, and I understand its important to keep the roles as they are, but are you telling me its a sin for a man to want to seduce his wife? Youre really gonna stop yourself from approaching her because she is the one who needs to know when you want it and just be coming to you all the time with it?
    One thing is for a man to be EXPECTED to initiate all the time, but its another to expect her to read your mind at all times about when you want it. And every man is different.
    I think its just better to be open to sex at all times and when it happens it happens, free of pressure, expectations and rejection.
    And besides men love to seduce women too, both sexes love being seduced and doing the seducing when they are sexually healthy and open to it.

    I never said romance is expected without her earning it. But what I find interesting is that many men expect the Agape love to be the motivator for why she finds him attractive and desires closeness with him. While this certainly has a lot to do with it, it is not everything. A man can provide for you everything God commands he does, (food clothing shelter protection) and yet if he treats you badly, talks down to you, ignores you, is very disinterested in you as a person and doesnt care for your feelings, it will just kill the desire in her.
    I know, men hate hearing the whole “feelings” thing and let me be clear about one thing,
    Her feelings should have NOTHING to do with her keeping her command from God in her marriage, meaning she must submit to her husbands authority, and provide for his needs despite how she feels. Just like a man must provide for the woman despite whether he wants to or not or thinks she doesnt deserve it.
    But ignoring a very fundemental part of marriages is a big mistake and this is where I feel many men dont understand women.
    You providing for her is not enough to spark that romance in her heart to want to genuinely please you and takr care of your needs the way you would really want her to. That eagerness enthusiasm and admiration many men crave from their wives is sorely missing if you dont cater to her emotional needs. Thats it. Now the tricky part is in what you said which I absolutely agree with, men dont feel motivated to actually romance her and love her and give affection when the woman isnt providing for his sexual needs and being submissive and having reverance for him. Basically she hasnt EARNED.
    They need the woman to do this wholeheartedly for him to begin to feel close to her enough to start loving her the way she wants to be loved. Thats it.
    So, whats the conclusion?
    The best marriage starts with both doing what is expected of them, giving 100 percent effort into the marriage with God being their true motivator behind their actions within their marriage.
    Basically you said men have to fake romance in order to have their wife do for them when it would be just easier if she did first so he could really MEAN it.
    But women dont want to initiate and dont MEAN it and will also fake wanting to please/seduce you and fake feeling good when you make love and fake respect when the man is engaging in destructive behavior and not appealing to her emotional needs. Basically he hasnt EARNED it.
    This is why this topic is constantly preached to men about women. Because its a need that is not a direct commandment from God, but instead its an understanding of the womans nature.
    Heres the hard part for many, sometimes duty and faking it are necessary when the marriage has been broken down.
    And depends who youre talking to, youre gonna tell them the same thing. Fake it until you make it.
    You dont love your wife?forgive her of all the bad she has been doing and Romance her once again to get her to feel that spark again so the sex can really be pleasurable between the both of you instead of just an act of duty that doesnt make it satisfying.
    If talking to a woman same thing, forgive him of anything he has done to hurt you and committ yourself to making his needs your priority and begin cultivating a positive outlook of him so you can begin to enjoy being with him once again.
    Then the fruits of your labor begin manifesting and phileo love sparks back up again.
    But realistically no woman will be motivated to seduce and reverence a foul, selfish or cold husband, just like a contentious, rebellious nagging wife doesnt motivate a man to want to be romantic with her.
    Its the two way street again.
    Expecting a woman to deny her feelings is like asking a man to deny his!
    You said you dont want/FEEL like romancing a contentious wife and you find it offensive to be told to fake it anyways cuz she needs it. Well so do women.
    The problem is the lack of understanding how to relate to the opposite sex. Following Gods commandments is not the end all of marriage. Relating to who you married is a large part of it too. Meeting each others needs is necessary. Women dont just have a need for food clothing and a home, I trust you know this.
    And yes women need to be more open in their hearts towards their husbands from the very beginning and not be so guarded, it helps when a woman practices forgiveness and has self control over her emotions in order to do whats right.

  23. @ RandomGirl

    I live in Colorado Springs and I have had many ties and dealings with Focus and their culture. My purpose is not to defraud them, but to call the Christians to repentance.

    A fish does not know that it is wet, and most who swim in this zeitgeist of feminism do not realize how feminism they have adopted in their worldview. Allow me to use your comment as an example of divergence.

    First the Focus audience is over 75% women so their radio ministry ought to be calling women to repentance not men. By dwelling on the sins of men they stoke the fires of discontent, one of the very sins for which they should be calling women out.

    You wrote “Yes a woman will encourage a man to change by being the kind of woman God has called her to be”. Amen! But the question is how. The answer is not the one from FOTF but from Peter. 1 Peter 3:1-2 Wives, likewise, be submissive to your own husbands, that even if some do not obey the word, they, without a word, may be won by the conduct of their wives, when they observe your chaste conduct accompanied by fear. I have not listened to Focus lately but that emphasis has not been characteristic of their message.

    You wrote “Divorce is not condoned but separation is,..” I would disagree and state that both their internal culture and message is that of Glenn Stanton who venerates divorced women as heroes. They one the one hand say how bad divorce is and on the other facilitate discontent and divorce.

    You wrote “it is in the bible that a wife is to first honor God above her husband,” Amen! But why did you bring that up? Was anyone suggesting differently? I submit to you that this is a tactic that you may have been taught by ministries like Focus that leads to submission equivocation. Especially when a woman has been told how spiritual she is and how evil men are, she can frame her insubordination as following God. But God’s Word says to obey and submit to her husband. By a good and necessary consequence of the study of scripture the only exception is if obeying her husband is clearly sin, no grey areas.

    You wrote “Just telling people to follow the bible without considering their individual cases would be foolhardy,”: I could hardly disagree more. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. I might add all of Psalm 119 as well. First state and understand the Bible and then and only then seek out particular applications or one is likely to end up relying on worldly wisdom, no matter how much it is informed by scripture.

    You wrote “And men shouldnt be so focused on what kind of wife they have, but instead on being more christlike,” Does Christ not care about on His wife and her actions? Is not agape leading a wife to repentance? Does not a wife’s sins threaten the entire household? To be the head, the leader of the home the husband must concern himself with what is going on with his wife that he may wash and water her the Word in knowledge.

    You wrote ” remember christ is servant like in His ways, not just authoritarian..” Please reread the first 3 chapters of Revelation where Christ indeed speaks to His bride in an authoritarian manner. The husband has been given authority over his wife, why should he pretend that he is her servant instead? Do you really think that leading is not serving?

    You wrote “Alot of men sound bitter when they complain that wives are not submissive, maybe their attitude might have something to do with it?” Perhaps they have had their wives obedience stirred by FOTF and that any attempts at correcting her are accompanied with real threats of an abuse charge, divorce or a shaming like you did above. Perhaps the reason for bitterness is that he is given accountability with responsibility.

    Again you have demonstrated much wisdom, but it evident to me that you are not aware of how much of the feminist worldview has its grip on you. I pray that the Lord will continue to bless you with wisdom and joy!

  24. RandomGirl,

    I think in many ways you have demonstrated wisdom in understanding the masculine nature and understanding how women can please their husbands.

    But you have fallen into two errant patterns of thinking(most likely based on what you have been taught). I will follow your train of thought and demonstrate what I am talking about.

    Your Statement:

    “There are men who are given unto sins, be it addictions, mental illnesses, abuse, slothness or selfishness.”

    We agree here – Men and women are can both have problems with addictions, mental illness, abuse, slothness or selfishness. I also think that Christian ministries should preach against these sins equally in men and women as neither has a monopoly on these sins. The question is how do we react to these sinful behaviors in our spouse? I will answer that later after we look at your other statements.

    Your Statement:

    “Yes a woman will encourage a man to change by being the kind of woman God has called her to be and THIS is what I mainly hear their point is. How women can change ungodly men by being godly wives, but reality is sometimes you will be stuck with an unbeliever who claims to be “christian” and get nowhere with your submission, these men are blind, and hurting their families, and the children are the ones that suffer the most, and knowing how many come from broken homes it is best to prevent such a thing and so they encourage drastic changes in order to get through to someone. This is not stepping out of line as a submissive wife, this is a necessary step that has actually saved many marriages. It is helping your man get out of sin, and the bible is clear that a believer should never be yoked to an unbeliever.”

    And here is where you stay into one the errors of FOTF as well as the false teachings of many Christian ministries today. You start off with the truth of God’s Word when you say “Yes a woman will encourage a man to change by being the kind of woman God has called her to be and THIS is what I mainly hear their point is” but then you veer away from that by saying a wife has the authority to step out side that I Peter 3:1-2 model if she believes her husband is Christian in name only or not a believer. The truth is that this passage applies EQUALLY to a woman’s submission and obedience to her husband despite his disobedience to God whether he is a non-believer or believer. The Bible does not treat a woman’s submission to her husband differently based on what she perceives to be his spiritual status.

    You then say “the bible is clear that a believer should never be yoked to an unbeliever” – this is NOT talking about after you are already married. Once you are married you are to stay with your husband even if you come to find out he is unbeliever according to I Corinthians 7:12-13. Unless he leaves you – you are stay with him.

    You are to win your husband with your submission, respect and obedience according to I Peter 3. No where does it say you have to take other “drastic” measures to win him nor does it authorize such behavior on the part of the wife.

    Your Statement:

    “In order for a woman to get through to a man that sees her as beneath him and stepping out of line just because he doesnt want to face himself, drastic measures must be done. Divorce is not condoned but seperation is, remember these men have not been taught to put others before themselves either, they are selfish and self serving and dont honor God right and are not being Christlike, they do NOT encourage this type of drastic action against a man that is NOT this way.”

    What you have just described in the previous statement is a woman disciplining her husband. That is contrary to the word of God and the model of the Scriptures. Those under authority cannot exercise discipline on those in authority above them. So basically what FOTF is teaching is the modern false ideology that women only have to submit to men are who treat them as God wants husbands to treat their wives and who are worthy of their submission. That is completely and utterly false and flies in the face of the clear teaching of I Peter 3:1-2 regarding wives submission to their husbands.

    Your Statement:

    “God works in drastic measures, and it is in the bible that a wife is to first honor God above her husband, and if her husband causes her to sin against God she is to not submit.”

    Absolutely God works in drastic measures and he used drastic measure to attempt to bring his wife Israel to repentance but she would not repent so he eventually divorced her. But God was the husband and he could use drastic measures toward his wife’s sinful behavior – the wife has not such authority toward her husband. I will talk more about that in a minute. And yes I agree with you that a wife does not have to obey any command from her husband that would cause her to sin against God. But it is not a sin for a wife not to discipline her husband for his bad behavior because she has no authority to do this.

    Let me let you in on a little secret from the Bible – it is not a sin to suffer wrong doing from the person who is an authority over you(including your husband).

    “18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.
    19 For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.”
    1 Peter 2:18-19 (KJV)

    And it is worthwhile to not that this discussion of suffering unjust unfair treatment from our authorities leads right into Paul’s discussion of wives subjection to their husbands in I Peter 3.

    So it is crystal clear in the Scriptures that a wife cannot discipline her husband or in your words use “drastic measures” in an attempt to change his bad behavior. Instead she is called to win with her submission and suffer injustices from him in service to God.

    HOWEVER – Biblically speaking a woman does NOT have to suffer certain wrong doings from her husband in the same way servants did not have to suffer certain wrong doings from their masters.

    “26 And if a man smite the eye of his servant, or the eye of his maid, that it perish; he shall let him go free for his eye’s sake.
    27 And if he smite out his manservant’s tooth, or his maidservant’s tooth; he shall let him go free for his tooth’s sake.”
    Exodus 21:26-27 (KJV)

    A wife is servant to husband and much more. But as all servants are able to freed from physically abusive masters so too Biblically speaking a wife may be freed from her husband who is physically abusive toward her. I believe this would also extend to her children.

    Exodus 21 also shows these things that wives do NOT have to suffer from their husbands:

    “10 If he take him another wife; her food, her raiment, and her duty of marriage, shall he not diminish.
    11 And if he do not these three unto her, then shall she go out free without money.”
    Exodus 21:10-11 (KJV)

    So as a Christian wife you do not have allow your husband to physically abuse you or your children. You do not have to suffer as a result of his refusal to work not having any clothing or food and you do not have to tolerate him not allowing you to have sexual relations with him.

    You also do not have stay married to him and not seek marriage to anyone else if he abandons you:

    “15 But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. A brother or a sister is not under bondage in such cases: but God hath called us to peace.”
    I Corinthians 7:15 (KJV)

    So when we take the entire witness of the Bible on this subject we see that unless your husband physically abuses you, abandons you, fails to provide for you(do to his unwillingness to, not inability to) or fails to allow you to have sexual relations with him then as the Scriptures say “The wife is bound by the law as long as her husband liveth”(I Corinthians 7:39).

    So that means anything short of physical abuse, abandonment, failure to provide(not inability to provide) or failure to allow sexual relations is something that you as a wife must suffer for the cause of Christ. That means if he provides the essentials for you and children but spends all the rest of the money on himself in a selfish manner you must suffer this for Christ. If he demeans you and does not honor your position as his wife you must suffer this sin against you for the cause of Christ.

    So you first error is in thinking a wife can take “drastic measures” i.e. discipline her husband. As a wife you have no right or authority to do this. You may have the right to divorce him under a very narrow set of circumstances – but never can you discipline your husband.

    I will tackle your second error in my next comment.

  25. RandomGirl,

    Now I will address the second type of false teaching that you have fallen prey too.

    Your Statement:

    “Theres too many backgrounds that people come from to generalize their teachings. They tend to preach to a certain type of group and situation on a daily basis. Just telling people to follow the bible without considering their individual cases would be foolhardy, and I think they do a good job at trying to talk about all points and cases out there.”

    Yes we all face different hardships in life – but the Word of God remains true for us all. I think we should teach people to follow the Bible no matter what. The principles I laid out in my last comment that you never have the right to discipline your husband but may have the right to divorce him in some narrow circumstances remains true for all people. The situation does not change these principles.

    Your Statement:

    “And men shouldnt be so focused on what kind of wife they have, but instead on being more christlike, remember Gods agape love motivates us to submit to Him, and remember Christ is servant like in His ways, not just authoritarian, and when you provide for your wife you ARE serving her too you know.”

    This could not be more wrong from a Biblical perspective. Look at Ephesians chapter 5:

    “25 Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;
    26 That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, 27 That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.”
    Ephesians 5:25-27 (KJV)

    RandomGirl – how are men to love their wives as Christ and why did he give himself up for his bride? The Bible tell us that gave himself up and he loves her by washing her spots, wrinkles and blemishes with the Word of God “That he might present it to himself a glorious church”. Jesus Christ gave himself up(“purchased with his own blood”) his wife – the church – not so that she could continue as she was but so that he could make her who he wanted her to be.

    So it is absolutely “Christlike” for a husband to be “so focused on what kind of wife they have”. This is a doctrinal truth and pivotal point of marriage that has been lost in the teachings of most Christian organizations that have watered down Biblical teachings on marriage to appease women.

    Your Statement:

    “Just like a womans submission encourages affection and a man to cherish his wife so does agape love and servant like behavior encourage submission.
    A simple analogy is this:
    you rather serve a tyranical king that only cares about himself and his subjects doing his bidding at all times or a kind wise king that considers others and does whats best for all not just himself?”

    I don’t disagree that it is easier to serve a leader whom we know has our best interests at heart and is not acting in selfish ways that are hurtful towards us. But as I pointed out to a woman the other day we serve a God who both sacrifices for us and also uses us for his own glory and pleasure. It is not wrong for a man to do things for himself or take pleasure in the money he makes or take pleasure in his wife’s body sexually as long as he also considers her needs and also sacrifices himself for her. It is not a one or the other – it is both.

    But the main focus of his sacrificial attitude for his wife(and by extension his children) is for their holiness – not necessarily their happiness. It is not wrong to do nice things for our wives and kids and we should when we can – but it should never be at the expense of their holiness.

    But while it certainly is easier to follow a leader who is exhibiting a Christ like attitude – that is not a precondition for a wife’s submission. She is to submit to him unconditionally unless he directly asks her to sin. Whether he has great character or not, or whether he is sinning or not(aside from those few things I mentioned before) it is irrelevant. She is to serve him in all ways(including willingly giving her body to him).

    I also want to come back to this statement:

    “Just like a womans submission encourages affection and a man to cherish his wife so does agape love and servant like behavior encourage submission.”

    I think the modern Church badly abuses the “servant” leadership of Christ concept. Yes leaders are to serve those under their leadership. Often we see people bringing up the example of Christ washing his Apostle’s feet. But that was not showing leaders that they need to be waiting hand and foot on those that are under their leadership. What it was showing was a leaders attitude in helping those under him and being willing to step in where help is needed when it is actually needed. And did Christ spend the majority of his time washing feet or leading, preaching and going about his mission? We know the answer to that from the Bible.

    So for example – if I take care of the dishes and cooking after my wife has had a surgery(and she has had many over the years) then I am showing a servant leader’s spirit in doing that for her. Even if I randomly from time to time just take care of something she would usually do that also is a servant leader spirit. However if I am doing things for her all the time that are her duty and responsibility as my help meet or if am doing all the house hold chores to get sex from her that is NOT servant like leadership. That is appeasement and it is wicked and wrong.

    A woman should submit to her husband in service to God first and foremost. But she should be naturally drawn to submit to him by his strong leadership – not because he does things around the house for her.

  26. Jonadab-the-Rechabite

    First the Focus audience is over 75% women so their radio ministry ought to be calling women to repentance not men. By dwelling on the sins of men they stoke the fires of discontent, one of the very sins for which they should be calling women out.

    Ok you have a point there bringing too much attention to male sin is not fair , but for you to say that only women should be called out is not biblical either and they would not be doing the Lord any real service if all they did was talk about womens sins, the word of God speaks to everyone. They are not a womans radio show or mens radio show, they are about family and they should bring up both sides, which they do. And 75 percent clearly doesnt mean there arent men listening and like I said, I have heard them preach many times on reverence, submission, doing everything Gods way, prayer, seeking councel from the church, meeting mens needs, a womans role in the home and with her children and even how feminism is destroying the family dynamic so I still fail to see how them speaking on matters of men even though the majority of listeners are women somehow makes their teachings towards women irrelevant. Sure it might get some women thinking in a negative way but they are not responsible for these womens hearts. If theres sin in her heart, she will twist everything she hears to jsutify herself anyway, and if she is true to followimg the bible she will seek wisdom.

    You wrote “Yes a woman will encourage a man to change by being the kind of woman God has called her to be”. Amen! But the question is how. The answer is not the one from FOTF but from Peter. 1 Peter 3:1-2 Wives, likewise, be submissive to your own husbands, that even if some do not obey the word, they, without a word, may be won by the conduct of their wives, when they observe your chaste conduct accompanied by fear. I have not listened to Focus lately but that emphasis has not been characteristic of their message.

    Yes I have heard them mention this several times lately. Not once have I heard them tell women they should verbally lecture their husbands over wrong doing, instead to bring it up in a soft and respectable manner thats on his terms,they dont tell women to threaten divorce, not once have I heard them say she should leave the home and not attend his needs because he is doing things that displease her or hurt her, unless we are talking dangerous physical abuse, and even then, they suggest seperation, not total divorce.

    You wrote “Divorce is not condoned but separation is,..” I would disagree and state that both their internal culture and message is that of Glenn Stanton who venerates divorced women as heroes. They one the one hand say how bad divorce is and on the other facilitate discontent and divorce.

    I would need proof of how divorced women are venerated as heroes, because having on
    air women who have been through divorce to speak doesnt mean they are ok with it. There is something called Grace, and that is something we all must give to one another. If they made mistakes in the past or were not saved then and are now they can speak into what their life looked like or is now as a result of that. Not once have a heard them say that a divorced woman is an example for the others to follow in her steps.

    You wrote “it is in the bible that a wife is to first honor God above her husband,” Amen! But why did you bring that up? Was anyone suggesting differently? I submit to you that this is a tactic that you may have been taught by ministries like Focus that leads to submission equivocation. Especially when a woman has been told how spiritual she is and how evil men are, she can frame her insubordination as following God. But God’s Word says to obey and submit to her husband. By a good and necessary consequence of the study of scripture the only exception is if obeying her husband is clearly sin, no grey areas.

    I brought it up because the underlining teaching will always be that women submit to their husbands in everything, but clearly there are exceptions, I was referring to women who are subjects to abusive and destructive men and why drastic measures must be taken in order to free the woman from such a place. God has authority over her thats above him so even if the man doesnt want her to leave him for how hes acting towards her in that particular case she has a right to protect her life and her childrens life, as a husband never has authority over a womans very life and soul. I am in no way referring to women who are simply “unhappy” or feel resentful at being under a mans authority, or who dslike not being in control and being told what to do. I was referring how they tell women to leave abusive men and remind them to not fear for God comes first and foremost, not the husband.

    You wrote “Just telling people to follow the bible without considering their individual cases would be foolhardy,”: I could hardly disagree more. 2 Timothy 3:16-17 16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work. I might add all of Psalm 119 as well. First state and understand the Bible and then and only then seek out particular applications or one is likely to end up relying on worldly wisdom, no matter how much it is informed by scripture.

    Well you basically agreed with what I meant. I never said lets bend the word of God to the persons individual case, what I meant is there are exceptions and sometimes the word of God wont be so clear on that persons particular situation so just telling a man or womans whats expected doesnt always make sense. What I mean is there might be legit reasons preventing them from having the typical kind of marriage that is expected. Focus tends to bring to light these kind od “exceptional cases” or common cases where what should be done is not being done and why. If all they did was preach the bible and never focused on the very real issues abd sins that plague marriages today they would lose their followers. People need real examples and real people to testify their case, not just preaching to the masses, not because Gods word isnt enough, but because sin has such a grip on the world now, that people literally need individual attention

    You wrote “And men shouldnt be so focused on what kind of wife they have, but instead on being more christlike,” Does Christ not care about on His wife and her actions? Is not agape leading a wife to repentance? Does not a wife’s sins threaten the entire household? To be the head, the leader of the home the husband must concern himself with what is going on with his wife that he may wash and water her the Word in knowledge.

    No thats not what I meant. What I mean is sometimes a person is overtly worried about someone else sin, that they fail to see their own. Yes men should be on top of their wives with their sin, but some of them neglect their own and expect a perfect wife while they are far from fullfilling Gods commandments to themselves. And men should simply be more conscious of that, instead of just telling women to get off their case as they have no authority to say anything. A real man of God strives to be more Christlike everyday, not just making sure his wife is.

    You wrote ” remember christ is servant like in His ways, not just authoritarian..” Please reread the first 3 chapters of Revelation where Christ indeed speaks to His bride in an authoritarian manner. The husband has been given authority over his wife, why should he pretend that he is her servant instead? Do you really think that leading is not serving?

    I never said he should pretend to be her servant, but being servant like requires a level of selflessness and humbleness that some men lack completely. Remember Jesus washed the apostles feet, an action of someone who would be beneath them, yet Jesus is NOT in anyway beneath anyone. Yes im aware leadership is serving. What I meant was its easy to dish out the rules, expect those under you to follow, and you come down hard when they disobey, but its so important for men to remember that they must be willing to put others before themselves and know what its likes to be beneath someone too in order to not fall into certain sins themselves.

    You wrote “Alot of men sound bitter when they complain that wives are not submissive, maybe their attitude might have something to do with it?” Perhaps they have had their wives obedience stirred by FOTF and that any attempts at correcting her are accompanied with real threats of an abuse charge, divorce or a shaming like you did above. Perhaps the reason for bitterness is that he is given accountability with responsibility.

    No, this is a very touchy subject to many, what I meant again was referring to abusive men, not normal men doing their best at being a godly husband no matter if he is imperfect and falls short. Theres nothing sexy about a man that calls you derogatory names treats you like dirt doesnt appreciate your services and submission and never listens or consider how they might be making you feel. Theres different degrees of this, and it just baffles me how someone ( man or woman) can behave in such terrible ways and then wonder why their spouse is having a hard time giving themselves to them and not submitting/loving them. Since they fail to look inwardly, they blame others for the failure they see before them. Women do this too when they become bitter that men dont love them and show affection, they fail to see how their actions might have a lot to do with it and it doesnt mean their man is defective. I never meant attitude about expecting submission, but attitude towards HER as a person.
    Ive witnessed several men mistreat women in horrible ways, I knew a man that would literrally mistreat his wife in front of guests. He would call her to serve food like this. Hey fatass, wheres the food? People are waiting! She comes out with food quickly trying to put down the plates in front of the guests. Then he proceeds to tell her you always take forever woman. Then as he starts eating he makes a face and says this food taste bad, you idiot. How could you mess up like this when we have guests? He gets up and throws the food away and then proceeds to apologize to the guest for his wifes stupidity.
    You can think what you want of that, but do you think later that night after hes gotten drunk he comes and starts groping her from behind and saying baby this baby that that this woman will want anything to do with him? Yes duty and Gods command over feelings but cmon! Then as the woman starts giving up pleasing him since hes unpleasable, these men start complaining their wives wont submit and theyre trash women. I know this is not the norm… but its just a case of men ive seen who to me are delusional in their expectations. Even my father in law is somewhat the same. He has always been a bully to my husbands family, always puts them down, cracks jokes at their expense, doesnt consider their feelings nor the fact that guests are in the home, makes his family feel stupid and incapable because nothing they do is good enough to him, and then he complains that his wife rather spend time with friends than with him and that his children dont confide in him like they do with their mom and he plays the victim and gives a sob story about how his family is against him and dont respect him. His bitterness shows and it hurts him and he honestly feels bad that hes being ignored but clearly he fails to understand something here right?
    Thats why Grace and forgiveness are necessary to overcome bitterness, bitterness has never brought a man to love a woman and neither will bitterness make a woman want to please her man from the heart, she will follow Gods command with coldness and resentment in her heart, instead of joy and genuine love for him.

    Again you have demonstrated much wisdom, but it evident to me that you are not aware of how much of the feminist worldview has its grip on you. I pray that the Lord will continue to bless you with wisdom and joy!

    I wont pretend that I have no such views, however im not advocating for it, im no feminists thats for sure and im still learning. I was speaking specifically about certain situations but I realize I didnt make myself clear enough.Thanks

  27. But you have fallen into two errant patterns of thinking(most likely based on what you have been taught). I will follow your train of thought and demonstrate what I am talking about.

    When I say step out, I dont mean out of the marriage, I mean out of the whole tolerance of sinful behavior that might be endangering her and the children. Im not referring to nonbelievers that are simply engaging in sinful behavior on their own, yet they might treat the wife and children right in some ways. Yes I never implied she could divorce a man because hes a nonbeliever, and I know she is not allowed to “discipline” her man with her actions, but she is allowed to protect herself and her children. And when I say she is to not be yoked to an unbeliever I mean just because youre married to one does not mean youre suppose to leave him there right? A woman can encourage God into his life and its not gonna happen by just being obedient, exposure to Christ must come in at one point.
    Look I get what youre saying, it basically paints a picture where the man can get away with any sinful behavior he wants without being rightfully confronted by anyone except God. It doesnt matter if a woman suffers, if children suffer, their voice and feelings ultimately do not matter. Tolerating and ignoring a mans sin and continuing to give him everything that would be present in a good healthy marriage despite him not really “earning” it sincerely is exactly how it should be because he is the man and ultimately the only one that matters. I know you will say yes because thats what the bible seemingly dictates, but its the blatant disregard for anyone else involved in the marriage that has lead to the break down of marriages. Men simply are not committed to God as they once were. And I still stand that men are the ones that should be ultimately preached to BECAUSE of this fact. The one that holds the power to make his family life everything God intended to be is the one that needs the word of God more, however women hold a lot of power within their families too and they need to be addressed to women accordingly, but while a woman can influence the dynamic within her family greatly, the man has the ultimate potential of either destroying his family or truly bringing them to God.
    And despite it is not supported by the bible, the fact that because many women have stepped out of line and have stopped tolerating a mans sin, many men have come to grips with the reality of their ways, nothing else really opened their eyes until their wives did this, and they continue their marriage still with the woman submitting and the man being the ultimate authority, except now whatever sin had been plaguing them is now gone, whether they achieved this biblically or not becomes irrelevant, because in the end, it served a purpose for the bettwr of everyone involved, and dsliking and disagreeing with that reality does nothing to change the reality. Even though it shouldnt even come to that, but truth is it did and another truth is: it worked.
    I would think that a man that truly cares for cherishes and considers others wouldnt have a problem with giving his family what they need on an emotional level, women are not the only ones with emotional needs in a marriage, children do too. I fail to see how teaching men to have this level of regard for their family is somehow neutering him and taking away his manly rights? I dont see how this detracts from a godly marriage? Because the way you put it, it sounds like marriage constitues of only women and children suffering grief, not the man. Is the woman excluded from Christs teachings?
    Not every woman is gonna get right whats expected of her, and a man should encourage her to become that, not just through punishment and chasticement, but also through grace and forgiveness, yes thats encouraged in the bible.
    Even though man is suppose to represent Christ, he is not Christ, which is why a man should be fussing over his own convictions and sins incessantly.
    You might say “well, but thats none of the wifes business”, but I believe it is. Sure she cannot punish him for not listening to her, and sure she shouldnt get disrespectful about it, but she should be able to let him know he is failing, and she should encourage more Christ like behavior in him not just towards her, but towards others, she should be able to set boundaries on sinful behavior, not ignore them.
    Let me ask you this, when the bible says the woman must fear the man, what exactly is she fearing?
    Because as far as I knew, the one she should fear is the Lord Himself if she does not submit to him, and so she submits with the same level of fear she should hold toward God, but it is only meant as a representation, not literally. If she literally is suppose to fear then we’re back to my question, what exactly is she fearing? His reproach? Him taking away things from her? Him verbally chastising her, and where is the line drawn between whats biblical and whats abuse?
    I dont think it is ungodly to recongnize that women ARE equal to men, God made man and woman in the image of God, God designed woman as a helpmeet, which literally means partner, not servant. She was never intended to be beneath him, and she was not designed with the intention of her being inferior to him in any way, different does not mean inferior, weaker vessel does not mean inferior.
    Im not saying you do, since I really dont know, but I honestly believe that those that preach that women have no right to speak against her mans sinful behavior and has no right to confront him are giving bad men a free pass where it is not due, nobody said she must do it with an authoritarian reproach, no one said she had the right to take away things from him, especially what is rightfully his, biblical speaking. But there is the part of relating to another human being, and treating women as less important than men is unfounded biblically. The fall caused man to be given authority over her, and it is very possible to remain in authority and be given due respect while having your sins be brought to light. Men are to treat women right and give them proper respect and be cherished because it is recognized that she is a human being with feelings who you are relating to and is your partner in life, even though the relationship is to mirror a servant and master one, it is not literally one. The bible does not command a man in this area, but speaks wisdom unto the man to realize this.
    Its like I previously stated, that a man is more caught up with being self righteous and focused on whats acceptable and what isnt about his wifes behavior that he fails to look at himself. We do not live in a time were many men truly fear the Lord and live their lives according to the bible. The wife as a helpmeet has no place meddling with bringing salvation to her husband? Only in making sure she obeys him?
    The word of God is to be accessed by everyone correct? If the wife knows the bible she cannot quote scriptures to her husband? She cannot use Gods word against him? The bible states a man is wise to listen to his wife. The bible does not command a wife to literally be quiet, that is a gross misinterpretation of the word. The bible calls us to have no tolerance for sin but to excercise grace and forgiveness at the same time. How does a wife fit into all this? Again im not talking about situations were women dislike things about the man that arent sinful, like never spending time with her, wasting all extra expenses on whatever he wants, having certain character flaws.
    Im talking real sins, like actually putting himself above Gods commandments, engaging in criminal activity, cheating on her etc.

    Ultimately I agree with the roles, and I understand the marriage will look a bit one sided and seem unfair to women when you consider that a woman cannot punish her husband rightfully and divorce is not an option anyways, and women cannot actively do anything about having their feelings or their childrens feeling from getting hurt. And women cannot rightfully ask for anything beyond the commandments of God, but I think theres a part of marriage that is not talked about a lot between Christians who only quote scriptures, and thats the actual relational part of marriage. The fusion between personalities, backgrounds, and personal sins between the couple. I believe FOTF does a good job of bringing these things to light.
    And heres another thing, I have never heard focus tell women to not speak to her husband, to withhold sex or to leave him because he hurt her feelings, or because hes spending more money on himself than on her, or because they disagree on discipline of children or finances etc. Ive only heard them tell women to remove themselves from a husband that is failing to provide for her the way God commands( not properly providing enough food or clothing or paying bills on time and threatening their stability in a home or fails to find work when hes able to do so), or is engaging in sexually immoral behavior or cheating.
    I know you will say a woman cannot divorce her man for cheating but I believe she can. Adultery is not limited to one sex, just because one sex is mentioned in the verse it does not mean it only applies to that sex, lust is also applied to one sex but women can lust too. Or what would you call a woman that knows a man is married but she wants to steal him away from his wife? Im not saying she has actually done it but wants to do it? I would definitely call that lust in her heart.
    So yes I believe sexual immorality is grounds for divorce for both men and women. I dont agree with you that men have the right to take another wife, and I dont need examples of how the bible supports this since I have seen them already and still disagree. In many ways God has worked with the sins of man, and has allowed sin only because of their wickedness, a perfect example being divorce itself. God gives Grace and makes it work, like divorce, under very narrow circumstances. A man could only marry another woman after he had already taken her sexually by providing for her everything without denying his first wife anything. That would be an almost impossible feat for most men in the world and it still is today. It is just not Gods design. And I stand by the perfect arguement that if God had truly intended man to have many wives he would have gave Adam many wives, and that would have absolutely taken away the issue that people have with populating the world and incest. There would be no confusion and would make absolute sense instead of having only one man and woman be joined in holy matrimony and given the task of them alone populating the world.
    But that is evidence enough to prove that this was Gods design for man and woman. It was never intended to be man and his women. Gods idea of a family is one man one woman and their children.

    The rest i agree with you 100 percent. A woman should not expect anything from a man to fullfill her duty as God commands. It should be unconditional like it is for the man, my only arguement is the wisdom behind those commandments.
    Arguing why something should be a certain way but failing to actually examine the process of what goes on in a marriage to achieve this is what bothers me about quoting scripture impersonally.
    It is ok to look at the situation on a more personal level than just a generalized level.
    To claim that serving a humble kind man would be far easier than serving an abusive man is wise for a man to realize and accept and something many men need to be taught by churches. Many men do not have a good balance in their character to be righteous leaders. Many men fail to understand how if they want their wives to be genuine submissive women they should help her out by being easy to submit to, its as simple as how you tell women on here how she could make life easier for the man to love her and cherish her by being the woman a man wants her to be, an eager obedient submissive female makes any man want to be affectionate and loving. Having a wise understanding of this and having chruches preach to men and women on these topics should not be seen as a negative.

  28. @ RandomGirl

    There is too much for me to unwind at the moment. I have to go to work and provide for my own. Don’t want to be worse than an infidel you know. But let me point you to an answer to one of the questions you possed.

    Let me ask you this, when the bible says the woman must fear the man, what exactly is she fearing?

    Ephesians 5:33 Nevertheless let every one of you in particular so love his wife even as himself; and the wife see that she reverence her husband.
    The word rendered reverence is from the Greek word phobos which is fear. The command is to see to it that a wife fears her husband because he carries the authority of Christ over his wife that has been delegated to him. In the military they have a saying, “salute the rank not the man”. God says wife salute the rank and honor the man who has been given the rank. Why? Hebrews gives us the principle to follow.

    Hebrews 13:17 Obey those who rule over you, and be submissive, for they watch out for your souls, as those who must give account. Let them do so with joy and not with grief, for that would be unprofitable for you.

    So what is she fearing? Dishonoring her lord and by extension the LORD.

  29. RandomGirl,

    There is really so much you said that needs to be addressed that I will break it up into a few different comments as to avoid the world’s largest comment…LOL.

    Your Statement:

    “Look I get what youre saying, it basically paints a picture where the man can get away with any sinful behavior he wants without being rightfully confronted by anyone except God.”

    This is a strawman argument you have made. I did not say a man can get away with anything and I gave you some serious issues that I believe have Biblical repercussions for him where the woman can in fact act. I talked about her leaving him and taking the kids if there was physical abuse going on. I talked about her leaving him if he fails to provide(and is capable of it but just won’t due to his laziness) and I talked about her leaving him because he refuses to have sex with her.

    But when she acts – this is not her disciplining him or in other words taking actions to make his life uncomfortable in order for him to change his behavior. This is her exercising her God given right to free herself from a husband who has committed certain serious sins that for which God allows the marriage union to be dissolved.

    And you are wrong that a man cannot be confronted by anyone but God. A man can be confronted by his father, his brothers or other men in his life. In fact he could be confronted by men in the woman’s own family. He could be confronted by men at his church or his Pastor. In certain cases he could even be confront by civil authorities(like in the case of physical abuse). For instance if a woman’s family happens to witness a man dealing too harshly with his wife and children and one of her male family members pulls him aside and gives him a verbal rebuke the Bible does not forbid this.

    I don’t even feel that it it is wrong for a woman to air grievance with her husband about a particular issue if she does it in a kind and respectful manner and not as talking to him as his mother scolding and rebuking him. The Bible tells us that masters should hear the grievances of the their servants:

    “13 If I did despise the cause of my manservant or of my maidservant, when they contended with me;
    14 What then shall I do when God riseth up? and when he visiteth, what shall I answer him?
    15 Did not he that made me in the womb make him? and did not one fashion us in the womb?”
    Job 31:13-15 (KJV)

    But there is a difference between a wife gently sharing a grievance she has with her husband and her being nagging and contentious or her trying to verbally badger her husband into changing his behavior. That is not for her to do and is not allowed by God. She is not his mother or authority – she is his wife, his servant and his subject.

  30. RandomGirl,

    Your Statement:

    “Tolerating and ignoring a mans sin and continuing to give him everything that would be present in a good healthy marriage despite him not really “earning” it sincerely is exactly how it should be because he is the man and ultimately the only one that matters. I know you will say yes because thats what the bible seemingly dictates, but its the blatant disregard for anyone else involved in the marriage that has lead to the break down of marriages.”

    The husband/father or “the man” as you put it is not the only one that matters to God. Wives matter to God, children matter to God. But you are mistaking mattering to God with equal position. Yes we are all equally human and equally valuable before God regardless of our gender, race, age or any other attribute. However God has not given us all equal positions. Children do not have equal positions to their mother – she has a superior position to them. Children are not equal to their father – he has a superior position to them. And wives do not have and equal position to the husband – he has a superior position to her.

    But God calls us sometimes to suffer wrongs that are committed towards us by our authorities:

    “18 Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the froward.
    19 For this is thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.
    20 For what glory is it, if, when ye be buffeted for your faults, ye shall take it patiently? but if, when ye do well, and suffer for it, ye take it patiently, this is acceptable with God. 21 For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps:
    22 Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth”
    I Peter 2:18-22 (KJV)

    “Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven.”
    Colossians 4:1 (KJV)

    God certainly is concerned with the way authorties whether they be civil, business, church or family treat those under their authority. But God is also very concerned with how those under authority react to unjust and unfair treatment by those in authority. You talk a lot about men exhibiting Christ like behavior toward their wives and children and that is a true that men should do this. But have you ever considered the suffering servant approach of Christ? I submit to you that when a woman is “Tolerating and ignoring a mans sin and continuing to give him everything that would be present in a good healthy marriage” that this woman is doing EXACTLY what Christ would do in her position. What did Christ do when he was reviled by his earthly authorities? He took it and did not open his mouth. This is completely 100% consistent with I Peter 3:1 admonition to wives to win their husbands “without a word”.

    And telling women and others under authority that they must following the suffering servant example of Christ when wrong is committed against them by their authority is not a “blatant disregard for anyone else involved in the marriage that has lead to the break down of marriages”. It does not excuse the sin of the one in authority but rather deals with our reaction to when we are wronged by authority. Again I am not saying we must tolerate every kind of wrong from our authorities – but there are a very narrow list of things where we can take action. In most cases we are called to suffer these wrongs for the cause of Christ.

    My point here is that this is not all about “the man” but it is about God. We serve a God that is very concerned with order and authority. Read the Scriptures and you will find that theme throughout the Scriptures. And yes that runs very contrary to our modern society which could care less about order and authority and cares more about encouraging those under authority to correct, rebuke and chastise their authorities for any and all infractions and injustices that may have been committed whether they are real or perceived.

  31. RandomGirl,

    Your Statement:

    “And despite it is not supported by the bible, the fact that because many women have stepped out of line and have stopped tolerating a mans sin, many men have come to grips with the reality of their ways, nothing else really opened their eyes until their wives did this, and they continue their marriage still with the woman submitting and the man being the ultimate authority, except now whatever sin had been plaguing them is now gone, whether they achieved this biblically or not becomes irrelevant, because in the end, it served a purpose for the bettwr of everyone involved, and dsliking and disagreeing with that reality does nothing to change the reality. Even though it shouldnt even come to that, but truth is it did and another truth is: it worked.”

    If your proposed solution to any problem in life starts with this statement – “And despite it is not supported by the bible” – you have to recognize that it is wrong. RandomGirl, you don’t get to pick and choose what parts of the Bible you like and don’t like. When you do this you unravel the entire authority of the Bible and it becomes useless to you.

    And just because something accomplishes your goal does not make it right. Do you know that God cares about how we accomplish something just as must as what we accomplish?

    “And why not say (as we are slanderously reported and as some claim that we say), “Let us do evil that good may come”? Their condemnation is just.”
    Romans 3:8 (NASB)

    If you choose to violate I Peter 3:1’s admonition to win your husband without a word, if you choose to ignore God’s call to wives, children, servants and others to “endure grief, suffering wrongfully”(I Peter 2:19) and follow Christ’s example as the suffering servant and if you choose to usurp authority over your husband(even if only for a temporary time) and this accomplishes the goal of showing him he was wrong and making him stop giving you grief and treating you wrongly you have committed “evil that good may come” and God does not honor this.

    I have said it before on this site to both men and women. We are not called to preserve our marriage at all costs. Whether it is husband’s confronting their wives for their sin and disciplining them know the wife may just leave and divorce him or wives having to divorce a husband for those serious sins for which God allows divorce.

    This is a problem I have noted with FOTF and many other Christian ministries where they have literally turned marriage into an idol – but we cannot preserve our marriage or even fix our marriage by sinning against God to do so.

    RandomGirl – I respectfully ask you to reconsider your acceptance of the the ideology that “the ends justifies the means” or as Paul said “Let us do evil that good may come”. You should never ever be comfortable with something knowing it is not supported by the Bible and goes contrary to it.

    Whatever area you willing to leave the Bible for has become your idol. So if you are willing to do anything to make your marriage the way you think it should be(and maybe even the way God says it should be) but you are wiling to violate his Word to do that you have made marriage your idol.

  32. RandomGirl,

    Your Statement:

    “I would think that a man that truly cares for cherishes and considers others wouldnt have a problem with giving his family what they need on an emotional level, women are not the only ones with emotional needs in a marriage, children do too. I fail to see how teaching men to have this level of regard for their family is somehow neutering him and taking away his manly rights? I dont see how this detracts from a godly marriage?”

    I have no problem with teaching men and accepting for myself that husbands and fathers need to try and meet the emotional needs of their wives and children. But I think we have to be very careful how define “emotional needs”. We as men have God as our example of a husband and father. Did God as a father tell his children that he loved them? Yes all the time and so too we as fathers should on a regular basis verbally tell our children we love them. Should we show mercy and grace and take pity on our children as God does to his children? You bet we should. It is actually very humbly when we realize as Christian men that we are to image God to our wives and children.

    Teaching men these truths does not “somehow neutering him and taking away his manly rights”. But the question is who teaches him how to be a husband and father? Should it be his children correcting him and telling him how to be better father? Should it be his wife teaching him and correcting him and telling him how to be a better husband?

    RandomGirl – we don’t disagree that men should be taught these things – we just disagree on who should be doing the teaching. Fathers teach their sons on how to be men. Church leaders teach men how to be men. Some men have male mentors or in their life or other Christian friends and relatives who admonish them and how to be good Christian husbands and fathers. We have men’s retreats at our churches so men can be admonished in this regard.

    But the question is how do you as a wife or child handle it when you have a husband or father in your life who will not listen to Godly counsel of the men around him or will not even seek it out at all? You have the answer in the Scriptures that you seem completely unwilling to accept. God calls on you to suffer these wrongs and take it patiently for Christ’s sake in I Peter 2:18-24. I really think you need to mediate long and hard on that passage.

  33. RandomGirl,

    Your Statement:

    “Because the way you put it, it sounds like marriage constitues of only women and children suffering grief, not the man. Is the woman excluded from Christs teachings?”

    I really don’t know what you mean by “Is the woman excluded from Christs teachings?” – I will take a stab at this where I think you are speaking about equality. God has given men and women different roles in marriage – just because she does not have equal rights with her husband – or the equal right to confront him and discipline him as he does her does not mean she excluded from his teachings. He means she realizes her subordinate position and honors the limitations of that position.

    But let me come back to the bigger statement you are making – are men called to suffer in marriage and in the family? You bet we are. Do you know how many men have written me over the years describing horrible and belligerent treatment by their wives? I have had men write me and tell me about women who give them grudging and mean sex simply to make sex so miserable he won’t ask for it but then they can tell people they don’t deny him so he can’t divorce her. There are Christian men that deal with women who will not submit them one time and who call them every name in the book every day.

    Now can the man and should the man attempt to discipline his wife for these offenses? Yes he should. But humanly speaking there is only so much he can do and then at a certain point he must give his wife to God. So after he rebukes his wife, or takes away money or his time for things she wants and she continues in her blatant mistreatment of him can he just run away and divorce her? No he cannot. He must honor the covenant he has made before God and continue to unconditionally love his wife who acts wickedly toward him by leading her the best he can, providing for her and protecting her.

    So you are wrong in your understanding of what I am teaching that comes straight from the Bible. Both husbands, wives and children are called to sometimes to suffer wrongdoings however there is a distinction in how they are to react to it based on their POSITION. Parents can and should discipline children to best of their ability and Husbands should discipline wives to the best of their ability. But children cannot discipline parents and wives cannot discipline husbands.

  34. RandomGirl,

    Your Statement:

    “I dont think it is ungodly to recongnize that women ARE equal to men, God made man and woman in the image of God, God designed woman as a helpmeet, which literally means partner, not servant. She was never intended to be beneath him, and she was not designed with the intention of her being inferior to him in any way, different does not mean inferior, weaker vessel does not mean inferior.”

    Women are equal to men in their humanity “because she was taken out of Man” (Genesis 2:23)

    Women and men are equally saved “…there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus”(Galatians 3:28) and men and women are certainly are “heirs together of the grace of life”(I Peter 3:7)

    But just because we are equal in our humanity and our in our soul’s worth before God as men and women does not mean we are equal in earthly positions, that we are equal in physical bodies, or that we have equal rights, responsibilities and privileges. In other words – the Bible never advocates for the social equality of men and women and in fact it teaches directly contrary to the concept of equal rights for men in women both in marriage, the Church and Society at large.

    So what I would say is that you are right that it is not “ungodly” or unbiblical to recognize that men and women are equally human or that their souls have equal value to God and they are equally saved by God. But I would submit to you that it is in fact “ungodly” and unbiblical to say that women occupy and equal position in this world which God has created.

    You said that “God made man and woman in the image of God” and that is not a completely true statement. The Scriptures tell us that this regarding his creation:

    “So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.”
    Genesis 1:27 (KJV)

    While God certainly created “them“,male and female(Adam and Eve), he only created “him” – Adam in his direct image.

    Paul in his divinely inspired commentary on Genesis 1:27 writes:

    “For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man.”
    1 Corinthians 11:7 (KJV)

    This passage tells us that woman is NOT “the image and glory God”, but rather she is “the glory of man”. Woman indirectly bears parts of the image of God – but not his direct image. God’s direct image is that of the masculine human nature and the feminine human nature reflects God’s image in a lesser way. This has nothing to do with God having male genitalia(although Christ does as the God man) but it has to do with his nature. The triune God’s nature is more closely resembled by the masculine human nature than the feminine human nature.

    See this post I wrote for more on the subject of the image of God – https://biblicalgenderroles.com/2015/01/22/is-god-more-like-man-more-like-woman-or-a-combination-of-the-two/

    You said “God designed woman as a helpmeet, which literally means partner, not servant. She was never intended to be beneath him, and she was not designed with the intention of her being inferior to him in any way, different does not mean inferior, weaker vessel does not mean inferior.””

    RandomGirl – “help meet” does not mean “partner”.

    “20 And the Lord God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help [EZER] meet [k’enegdo] for him… And the Lord God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof;”
    Genesis 2:20 (KJV)

    The phrase translated as “help meet” in english in the KJV is a translation of two Hebrew words “ezer” and “kenegdo”. Ezer means “helper” and “kenegdo” means “opposite”. So literally God was creating a being that would be man’s helper with a similar nature(because she was taken from him) yet she would be his opposite in many ways. Now just because someone is a helper does not mean they are subordinate. In fact the same word “ezer” is used many times in Old Testament to refer to God being a helper to Israel. The position of the “ezer” or “helper” can be that of an authority(like God or a King) helping those under their authority. It can refer to an equal such as a partner which helps his fellow partner. But an “ezer” can also be a subordinate helper such as a servant or slave.

    So we must look to the entirety of the Scriptures to see what kind of “helper” woman is to man – is she is authority helper, his partner helper or his subordinate helper? The Scriptures answer this plainly for us:

    “22 Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord.
    23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body.
    24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.”
    Ephesians 5:22-24 (KJV)

    We see here that God created marriage as a picture of Christ and Church. He tells wives to submit to their husbands as they would to God. In no other human authority relationship are we told to submit to a human authority as unto to God. Only a wife’s submission to her husband is framed in these terms.

    Is the Church an equal partner with Christ? No she is not. She is subordinate to Christ. In fact she is owned by Christ as men owned their wives the Bible:

    “Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.” Acts 20:28 (KJV)

    This subordination of woman to man is repeated throughout the Scriptures:
    ” 1 Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands; that, if any obey not the word, they also may without the word be won by the conversation of the wives; 2 While they behold your chaste conversation coupled with fear.”
    I Peter 3:1-2 (KJV)

    “But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.”
    I Corinthians 11:3 (KJV)

    “But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.”
    I Timothy 2:12 (KJV)

    “34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law.
    35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.”
    I Corinthians 14:34-35 (KJV)

    Woman was definitely intended by God to be man’s companion(so he would not be alone) and also his servant(by caring for the needs of his home) but she was never intended to be his equal partner. To do so would break the symbolism God was creating in marriage of the relationship between himself and his people.

    And sorry but “weaker” which is the most literal translation of the two Greek words there in I Peter 3:7 DOES mean “inferior”. No one would argue that in muscle mass the average woman is as strong as the average man. Most men because they have 10 times more testosterone than women have 30 to 40 percent more muscle mass than the average woman. While there are some women who excel in the STEM fields the fact is that 75% of those in the STEM fields are still men more than a half century after women gained access to higher education in mass numbers. While there are female geniuses the fact is male geniuses outnumber female geniuses by a factor of 8 to 1. Just look at sports and tell me women are not inferior to men? If you took the best male basket ball team and put it against the best female basket ball team who would win? Why do we separate sports by gender even in the Olympics? It is because men are vastly superior to women in this area. Even though we allow women in the military we know for a fact in hand to hand combat if you put a man who is equally trained up against a woman who is equally trained in most instances the man will overpower the woman.

    But don’t fall for the lies of our feminist culture. Your value as a woman is NOT based on your equality with men either physically, mentally or socially. You value is based on what God created you to be. He created you to be a helper to man who is his image bearer “Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.”(I Corinthians 11:9). He created you to play a vital role in symbolizing the relationship between God and his people with your husband symbolizing God and you symbolizing mankind.

    So do you know why women were created inferior to men in many ways? It was so that they would need men as mankind needs God. God created woman for man so that man could play out the image of God that is within man. Man needed someone weaker than him to need his strength and protection. Man was created to desire beauty as God desires beauty so God created woman to fulfill man’s desire for beauty and he made her deeply desire to be beautiful. God knew man needed someone to bear his children and care for his home so he made woman for this purpose.

    Just as all mankind was made for the glory and pleasure of God – so to woman was made for the glory and pleasure of man. Every part of her design was meant to meet a need or desire of man as man would play out the image of God and woman would play out the image of mankind.

    So instead of women being upset about God creating them inferior to men – they should be rejoicing in their God given weaker vessel role and I know many Christian women that do. When women get upset about not being treated equal with men in all regards, or they try and compete with men or usurp men in authority they are spitting in the face of God and his design. Make no mistake – all attacks on patriarchy and masculine dominance in the world are an attack on God himself.

  35. RandomGirl,

    Your Statement:

    “The wife as a helpmeet has no place meddling with bringing salvation to her husband? Only in making sure she obeys him?
    The word of God is to be accessed by everyone correct? If the wife knows the bible she cannot quote scriptures to her husband? She cannot use Gods word against him? The bible states a man is wise to listen to his wife. The bible does not command a wife to literally be quiet, that is a gross misinterpretation of the word. The bible calls us to have no tolerance for sin but to excercise grace and forgiveness at the same time. How does a wife fit into all this? Again im not talking about situations were women dislike things about the man that arent sinful, like never spending time with her, wasting all extra expenses on whatever he wants, having certain character flaws.

    Im talking real sins, like actually putting himself above Gods commandments, engaging in criminal activity, cheating on her etc.”

    Certainly a wife can play a part in bringing her husband to salvation. But she does not do this by preaching at him or using “drastic measures”. My mother became a Christian not long after her and my father were first married. The woman who lead her to Christ gave her Godly counsel to win her husband(my father) by her changed life and behavior. If my dad had questions he could certainly ask her and she could try and answer them but ultimately my mother’s goal would be to get my father into Church and under the teaching of Godly men there and that is what eventually happened and then my father accepted Jesus Christ as his Savior and became a Christian. My father was hungry for the Word after being saved and it was not long after that – that he began teaching my mother(who was saved before him) the Word of God.

    So yes – any person can share the Gospel with another person and lead them to Christ in the same way anyone can point someone to a hospital. But it is one thing for a woman to point her husband to the salvation Christ offers and quiet another for her to act as his spiritual teacher.

    Yes we are all free to access God’s word whether we are male or female or young or old it matters not. However the Scriptures tell us that for a wife her husband is the one applies and interprets the Scriptures for her:

    “And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.”
    I Corinthians 14:35 (KJV)

    Again in the symbolism of man and woman to God and relationship to mankind is played out here. Just as mankind looks to the Holy Spirit of God to interpret and apply his Word to our daily lives so too women are to look to the husbands for their interpretation and application of God’s Word.

    I woman is never to “use Gods word against” her husband as if she was his authority. Even if a woman is more knowledgeable in the Word than her husband(as is the case in some marriages) she is never to use that knowledge to usurp her husband’s spiritual authority over her.

    I have a 15 year old daughter that loves studying the Bible for hours on end. She has even got into studying the Hebrew and Greek. But I have told her that God has given me to her as a spiritual guide now in interpreting an applying God’s Word for her life and one day she will have a husband which will do that for her. I have told her that her husband may disagree with me as her father on some applications of the Scriptures and she is to follow him at that point and not me once she is married to him.

    You said “The bible states a man is wise to listen to his wife”. Well the Bible never says that. In fact do you know the first sin man(male human beings) ever committed:

    “And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;”
    Genesis 3:17 (KJV)

    So the first sin man ever committed was listening to his wife and doing what she said when he knew it was wrong. Now I am not saying it is wrong for a man to just hear his wife out at times. God did tell Abraham to “hearken unto her voice” as in listen to Sarah on a certain situation. But this was not some policy by God that men should treat their wives as the Holy Spirit of God. My pastor and I were talking about that last week and he said he knows so many men who wrongly believe if their wife does not agree with some decision then they should not do it and all decisions must be mutually agreed on by the husband and wife. He said he knows men who treat their wives like the Holy Spirit and that is false. Women can be wrong and sometimes they are not. Pilot should have listen to his wife regarding Christ and God command Abraham in one instance to listen to his wife.

    But then we have Job – the man who correct Adam’s mistake and when his wife gave him bad advice he called her a fool:

    “But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.”
    Job 2:10 (KJV)

    I agree that husbands should listen to his wife at times. But it is our job as men to decide if what our wife is speaking is wisdom or falsehood. Proverbs 31:26 states “She openeth her mouth with wisdom; and in her tongue is the law of kindness.” so certainly wives can have some wisdom which they impart to their husbands and their children. However a woman must realize that the way in which she shares who wisdom with her husband will be VERY different than the way she share it with her children. She is her children’s authority so for them she teaches them as one having authority over them. However with her husband her wisdom is given as that of a humble adviser to a King. It is given in gentleness, kindness and reverence to her husband in respect of his authority over her. This respect and deference that women used to show their husbands as been all but lost today – they just talk to their husband as if they equals and buddies and she says whatever she wants whatever way she wants.

    So I agree with you women can talk to their husbands – but they cannot talk anyway they want to. She must always speak remembering her subordinate position to him.

    You said “The bible does not command a wife to literally be quiet” – well yes it does. But there is a context to that. It is talking about women not teaching in men in the Church and that women are to learn the interpretation and application of the Scriptures at home from their husbands. However can a woman teach her children? Of course she can. Can she teach other women(like be a woman’s Sunday school teacher or blogger) – of course she can:

    ” 3 The aged women likewise, that they be in behaviour as becometh holiness, not false accusers, not given to much wine, teachers of good things;
    4 That they may teach the young women to be sober, to love their husbands, to love their children,
    5 To be discreet, chaste, keepers at home, good, obedient to their own husbands, that the word of God be not blasphemed.”
    Titus 2:3-5 (KJV)

    You said “The bible calls us to have no tolerance for sin but to exercise grace and forgiveness at the same time.” Certainly we are not to tolerate sin in our own lives or the lives of those under our authority. So as a mother you certainly would punish you children for sins while also exercising grace, mercy and forgiveness. You would also confess your own sins.

    But your husband is your authority and NOT your spiritual responsibility. You are not his mother or teacher but you are his subordinate servant. God calls us to suffer the wrong treatment of our authorities except in a narrow set of circumstances.

    Literally what you describing in many of your posts is a woman who spiritually “mother’s” who husband. You are not called to do this and it is a gross violation of God’s design for your life.

    If your husband engages in a sin that God allows you to be free of him from then you can exercise that option. But you never have the authority to discipline your husband – never.

  36. RandomGirl,

    Your Statement:

    “Ultimately I agree with the roles, and I understand the marriage will look a bit one sided and seem unfair to women when you consider that a woman cannot punish her husband rightfully and divorce is not an option anyways, and women cannot actively do anything about having their feelings or their childrens feeling from getting hurt. And women cannot rightfully ask for anything beyond the commandments of God, but I think theres a part of marriage that is not talked about a lot between Christians who only quote scriptures, and thats the actual relational part of marriage. The fusion between personalities, backgrounds, and personal sins between the couple.”

    This will be my last response to you on this thread. What I am about to say I do not say in mean spirited way. Please know what I am about to say I am saying for your edification and spiritual growth.

    While in the beginning of your comments you displayed wisdom in trying to understand the masculine nature from a woman’s perspective I believe that as your comments continued you showed that most of what you believe is based on feelings and not the Word of God. Routinely you have dismissed oppositions to things you believed even if the Bible does not support it and you have claimed several supposed Biblical truths that are found no where in the Scriptures.

    You continually decry those who quote the Scriptures because you want to live by how you feel.

    The Bible tells us this regarding the Scriptures:

    ” 6 And these words, which I command thee this day, shall be in thine heart:
    7 And thou shalt teach them diligently unto thy children, and shalt talk of them when thou sittest in thine house, and when thou walkest by the way, and when thou liest down, and when thou risest up.
    8 And thou shalt bind them for a sign upon thine hand, and they shall be as frontlets between thine eyes.
    9 And thou shalt write them upon the posts of thy house, and on thy gates.”
    Deuteronomy 6:6-9 (KJV)

    And Jesus alluding to this same passage in the New Testament said:

    “But he answered and said,It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.”
    Matthew 4:4 (KJV)

    The prophet Jeremiah writes regarding our feelings:

    “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?”
    Jeremiah 17:9 (KJV)

    When we take this passages in summary the words of a Christian song ring true “I can’t live by what I feel, but by the truth your Word reveals”

    I believe when we examine your comments in total you do not really “ultimately…agree with the roles”. You take what you are willing to tolerate and dismiss what you are not wiling to tolerate from the Bible. In fact you display a spirit toward a Bible based view of marriage as it being “unfair” which in our world unfair means “unjust”.

    I totally agree with you that the Bible is unfair. It allows different social casts and rights(men, women, servants, slaves). It says women were made for men to be their subordinate helpers. God did not make a fair world. He made a world to bring glory to himself. Is that a smack in the face to female pride? Yes. But it is not a smack in the face to women who have humbled themselves before God and joyfully accepted their role in his creation.

    You keep bringing up a strawman argument that I and others who believe in Biblically based marriage and living and thus patriarchy and the roles of marriage somehow are dismissing sin in men. I know men sin just like women. Trust me I have seen REAL abusive men in marriages. I have seen men that are horrible spiritual leaders or do not lead at all and expect their wives to do everything. For all of human history their have been bad husbands and bad wives. But do you know what the difference is today? Today we live in a culture that excuses and dismisses sin in women and actively engages in misandry towards men. We live in a Christian culture that teaches us women are the spiritual ones and men are these oafs that need to be saved by women. We live in a culture which denigrates the fact that women were made for men and tells women if they embrace their subordinate and inferior position as being part of God’s master plan that these women have no self-esteem or intelligence. We shame feminine submission and reverence toward men today.

    So while I agree with you that men are still sinners like they always were – the poison of feminism that has infested the Church is the greatest threat we face today and it has caused great damage the institution of the family and the Church as well as our society at large. I am not saying we should not preach against men’s sins and I do here as well. But today that is not the greatest threat we face.

    Finally I would encourage you to heed the words of the Apostle Paul given to him by the inspiration of God:

    “And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.”
    Romans 12:2 (KJV)

    Stop conforming to what this world tells you about marriage, to what your feelings tell you about being a woman and being a wife. Let go of what our culture has taught you and start fresh with the Word of God. Let it transform and renew your mind, your thoughts and you view of yourself.

  37. I thank you BGR for your extensive answers (you were not kidding lol) and for taking the time to really explain to me many of my questions and beliefs.
    You have enlighten me to my ignorance to a lot of scripture.
    I am open to embracing what God expects of me and changing my heart to better serve my husband.
    It is clear I need to study the bible more. My husband is a good husband, he does his duty well and he has put up with alot from me as I from him.
    I gotta go ask forgiveness from him asap lol.
    I am not hanging on to my beliefs and I am doing my best to let go of pride and my “feelings” in order to truly honor the Lord and my husband.
    I did read everything you said and I see the error in a lot of what I have been lead to believe by others in my life, like you said previously.
    I have not been a Christian my whole life. I have only been a Christian for 5 years. I was not raised in a Christian home and there was a point in my life where I was an atheist.
    My relationship with my husband was horrible in the beginning, I met him before I was saved, we have been through so much and we have sinned against each other in so many ways, we also lived together and had 2 children before we got married, but it was only when we both truly began embracing the word of God within our home that things began to change. My husband had been a “Christian” in the past ( he was backsliden when I met him however) but a certain event happened in our lives that brought him back to the Lord, for real this time, and he began to teach me about God and brought me to Him. My husband did not grow up in a Christian home either, but im thankful and realize how lucky I am that I have a man that decided to take the word of God seriously, got saved, and brought salvation to me.
    Once we did, things drastically changed for the better between us.
    I have not been the best wife, but I have actively been seeking to become one on a daily basis.
    I can only say that our conversation has been for the better.
    It feels good to have my role as a wife be a lot more clearer to me, but I will admit sheepishly that I cant deny it feels easier to submit to my husband because he truly is a good husband who does have my best interest at heart 🙂

    One of the fears many women have is they feel alone when dealing with issues in a marriage once they understand whats expected of them as submissive wives, but the truth is we are NOT alone, God truly has the wives best interest at heart and the holy spirit WILL convict a man of his wrong doings in His way and in His perfect timing.
    And I see now how a submissive obedient and genuinely given unto her husbands wife is a precious gift from God to man, if only more women saw it this way and had their husbands best interest at heart, why would any woman who truly loves her husband want to take away such a precious gift that is in her hands alone to give to him? Especially when they have men who are fullfilling their role as husband as best as possible?

    Anyways thank you again for the time you took out of your day to answer me.

  38. RandomGirl,

    I am so happy that God has used his Word to reveal the truth to you. I hope you will go and meditate on all these passages of the Scripture I have given you. Truly if you open your mind to how God views the world verses how we are taught to view the world by our culture it will completely change your life.

    Remember that you and every other woman has value to to God. But don’t base your value on the false criteria the world gives you – base your value on what God says a woman is to be and what God made you for. This is why husbands are called by God to be “giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel”(I Peter 3:7). We are to honor our wives when she plays out the role of the weaker vessel that God gave her. We are to honor our wife’s submission to us, her need for our provision and protection, her respect for us and the service she gives to our homes as men.

  39. Yes I will definitely be meditating on these scriptures you provided. God has certainly changed my heart over the years regarding gender roles, love, submission, sex, child rearing, sin, wisdom, and men.
    I see how foolish my former beliefs were now, largely because I was misinformed, not because I was talking directly about myself or my closely held beliefs.
    I believe God is perfect and all knowing, and to lean on ones own understanding and reject Gods commands and wisdom is the most foolish thing anyone can do.
    They are only doing themselves a disservice.

    Im sorry that we ended up discussing things that had nothing to do with your post, things got carried away lol.

    But now returning to the former topic that gender roles and positions are important, I now fully agree that the way you do things and who does what matters because God knows why He has put laws in this world and why He has given both men and women specific roles to follow. Only when you obey Him and follow them accordingly will you reap the benefits and see the reason why it is so.
    Even though I’m a woman, the blatant favoritism in todays society towards women is actually disturbing and alarming to me.
    I would say my former views were more egalitarian than feminist, but I’m aware that both are not biblical.

  40. Focus on the Family is indeed a ‘christian’ ‘feminist’ ministry. However, they are not the only ‘christian’ ‘feminist’ ministry. These ministries are full of the fear of man (or woman) and compromise with the world. They tend to embrace secular psychology, which is a field which for some reasons seems to appeal to women. Other ‘christian’ ‘feminist’ ministries include ‘a cry for justice’ and ‘spiritual sounding board’ which are extremely gynocentric, to the point of becoming biased towards women, all while having the audacity to attack the true Church of Jesus Christ, who has compromised on biblical gender roles as ‘patriarchal’ and ‘conservative’, as if that is a bad thing.

    To Hell with Focus on the family. To Hell with a Cry for Justice. To Hell with Spiritual Sounding Board.

    PS: Great sex advice BGR by the way!

  41. This is totally unrelated to the topic at hand but has anyone bumped into Artisanal Toad?

    I’ve had the misfortune to bump into that piece of s**t, he seems to be fanatically obsessed with attracting women through “game” and other unbiblical beliefs
    Has any of the readers in here bumped into him?

    Sorry BGR for straying off topic here

  42. Cybersith1,

    The whole “game” concept is not original to Artisanal Toad but is part of a broader philosophical system called “Red Pill” and he builds a lot on the teachings of a famous Red Pill teacher called Rollo Tomassi who runs the blog “The Rational Male”. There are some truths about male and female natures taught on Rollo’s blog from a secular perspective however it is mixed with A LOT OF ERROR from a Biblical perspective.

    I agree with them that the whole idea of a man romancing a woman and telling her how wonderful she is and being Mr. Nice guy to attract women is utterly flawed. But the “Game” concept is just the flip side of the same coin of marriage based on feelings rather than duty and commitment.

    Biblically based Christian marriage distinguishes itself from the romantic and game based models of marriage in that it is based NOT on love as a feeling(phileo) but on love as a duty(agape).

    In the pre-modern age marriages were not based either on “romance” or “game” but were based on duty. A man would see a woman he found attractive – he would go and barter with her father for her hand and her father would give his daughter to the man. It was that simple. The man did not try and impress the woman – he tried to impress her father!

    Most marriages came together based on political or economic concerns not necessarily romantic or attraction based concerns. Now did couples often grow to love each other romantically after marriage? Absolutely! God created the entire concept of when a man and woman are intimate it is natural for them to start having feelings for one another. Also as the man provides for and cares for his wife her feelings for him begin to grow. As she ravishes him with her body his feelings for her begin to grow. Then when they have children together this further cements the emotional attachment they have toward one another.

    Marriage is not about emotionally manipulating your spouse to get them to do what you want – it is about loving your spouse with an unconditional duty based love that does the part God has assigned to you(based on your gender). In Christian marriage feelings of affection, attachment and passion for one another are the RESULT, not the BASIS of marriage.

  43. Yup your statement nailed it
    Thank you for your sound biblical advice 😊. ….Toads Hall sounded way too radical to me and I found a lot of errors in his teachings, thanks BGR for keeping this topic “balanced”

  44. I agree that the duty and the covenant of marriage comes first, but do you see positive benefits in learning how to be attractive physically/ verbally to your wife? Especially on a post about wives seducing husbands, why would seducing your wife with some form of game be manipulation for him? Would the man be taking the feminine role in your opinion?

  45. Wood Chipper,

    Your Statement:

    “I agree that the duty and the covenant of marriage comes first, but do you see positive benefits in learning how to be attractive physically/ verbally to your wife? Especially on a post about wives seducing husbands, why would seducing your wife with some form of game be manipulation for him? Would the man be taking the feminine role in your opinion?”

    The first question we must ask is what should a wife’s motivation be for seducing her husband? Is it to evoke a certain emotional response from her husband that she wants? In other words is she manipulating him to get what she wants? If that is the case then she is wrong in her motivation. I mentioned in this post that a positive side effect of a woman being obedient to God in seducing her husband is that in many cases it will evoke the affection and passion from him toward her that she desires. But what if he does not show her all the affection she wants? Or he shows it to her in some lesser way than she expected? Should she get mad and stop obeying God’s command to her to ravish him?

    Many women do in fact use seduction with their husbands in exactly the same way as Red Pill advocates that men use “game” to seduce their wives – as a tool to emotionally manipulate their spouse into doing what they want.

    I am not saying husbands should not take care of themselves with use proper hygiene and carry themselves in manly and confident ways. And sure it does not hurt to go to the gym and watch what one eats. I am not against men doing other kind things for their wives either. But whether it is how we keep ourselves up as men, how we carry ourselves or the kind of things we may do for our wives we must never allow these things to become things we think we must do in order to motivate our wives to have sex with us.

    In Christian marriage our wife’s most powerful motivation to give herself fully to her husband sexually should be her understanding that God made her for her husband and that God commands her to ravish him with her body and commands him to drink of his well(which is her).

    In marriage our love starts with an act of the will which then leads to the love from the heart. I am not against husbands and wives loving each other in a phileo way in addition to Agape. In fact I think they should. But Agape love must be the foundation for marriage with Phileo love as a by product of that.

    This was the basic argument I had with Rollo when we discussed this a long way back. He completely rejected duty as a motivating factor for a woman having sex with her husband and that she had to emotionally massaged by her husband to properly motivate her. This is why I maintain the Red Pill “Game” philosophy is just the flip side of the same emotional coin. They criticize men playing “Mr Nice guy” in order to get sex from their wives(which I agree with them on) but then they just tell men to use different means to evoke an emotional response in their wives to have sex with them.

    In Biblical marriage we don’t have to play that “game”. I can love my wife and do kind things for her, keep myself up and yet know that has nothing to do with me getting to have sex with her. I can have sex with her when I want and I don’t have to ask if I have earned it or sufficiently emotionally manipulated her into wanting it.

    I do not deny that we as husbands doing some of these things makes it easier for our wives to do their duty – and there is nothing wrong with that. Obviously women will have a harder time having sex with a man who does not have some care for his appearance. But we must never allow this to become the basis for our wife having sex with us.

    In fact do you know that when I dove really deep in Rollo’s marriage that I found he only has sex with his wife when she is in the mood? And I asked him if she is in the mood as much as him and he said no. So I said to him “basically you are allowing your wife to determine when you have sex and not having sex with her whenever you desire it?” and his answer was “Yes”. He said something like this – “Why would I want sex with my wife if she does was not equally desiring it as I was?”

    So really the whole Red Pill “Game” is not about men getting sex as often as they want it – but instead trying to increase the amount of times their wife is in the mood by playing with her emotions.

    The Biblical formula is very different – it is “Men – whenever you are thirsty drink from your well or in other words – whenever you are feeling like having sex have sex with your wife”. That is not what Red Pill teaches – instead it is about manipulating your wife into being in the mood more often through various “Game” methods.

  46. This was an awesome post BGR! Really thorough and helpful for women!!

    “So really the whole Red Pill “Game” is not about men getting sex as often as they want it – but instead trying to increase the amount of times their wife is in the mood by playing with her emotions.”

    ^^This is true when you apply it to Rollo’s version of his application of it, but a lot of the Christo-manosphere men don’t seem to feel that way. They seem to feel that “duty sex” on the wife’s part is good and desirable *as long as she puts her heart into it and loves to satisfy him* – and *that’s* the motivation behind her doing the duty sex (not just an attitude of “well I HAVE to do this, so let’s get it over with,”).

    Game theory is not essentially the same as the “red pill.” There are tons of red pill men that reject playing the “game” of trying to game women anymore as they see no purpose in it, and they’re a different branch called “Men Going Their Own Way.” It’s a giant and diverse community really….

  47. I agree with your logic and grounds for sex within marriage. Maybe it is a personal desire for quality over quantity, or a question of “thirst.” I think the problem with duty sex is that it can breed contempt. And personally, I will never be thirsty enough again to ever accept contemptuous duty sex.

    That doesn’t mean that she has to be as into it as much as I am, but this post on wives seducing their husbands is almost as foreign to modern Christian marriage as the thought that a Christian husband has complete access to his wife’s body. The idea of going to a church where most of the married men are walking around sexually satisfied seems satirical.

    Rather than call game manipulative, i think it can be used wrongly to manipulate. If abused, it can take men down the road of “pimp culture.” However, it recognizes female nature (most churches have lost sight of this), and also teaches a lot on how to interact with women. Fathers (or lack there of) have failed to teach this well.

    Game also gives a lot of useful tools for knowing and understanding your wife. If you learn your wife feeds off strong positive and even negative emotions, why would you withhold that and treat her like a man?

  48. @Wood Chipper,

    One of the problems with what your description of game (at least what strikes me) is the concept that you should introduce negative emotions into your marriage for no purpose. If you introduce negative emotions into your marriage because you’re confronting a problem, that’s one thing. But introducing negative emotion just because you think that your wife wants drama (at least I think that that’s what your talking about), then you’re creating problems where there are none, especially if your wife doesn’t actually like fighting with you. Alternatively, if your wife does like it on some level, you’re encouraging a sin-caused corruption of her God-given nature.

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