This article has been updated and moved to my new site, BiblicalSexology.com, dedicated exclusively to the topic of sexuality from a Biblical perspective. You can find the updated article by clicking on this link – “A Biblical Guide to Ravishing Your Husband“
Also I have released a podcast version of this article on my podcast site, BGRLearning.com, where I go into the principles outlined in this article in much more detail. Click on the image below to go there and subscribe to listen to this podcast and hundreds of others on gender roles, marriage and sex.
Biblical Gender Roles 
I think we more or less agree. Striving to live according to the Bible in this culture should bring enough drama / tragedy on its own. Like you said, negative emotions can be used tactfully, which is something I never would have dreamed of doing as a nice guy.
Stephanie,
I don’t disagree with those who believe a woman’s motivation and heart should also be right as she fulfills her sexual duties to her husband. No man in his right mind prefers a woman just doing her duty with a blank look on her face as he has sex with her. But often times in the Christian life we find that we do what is right first by a conscious act of the will – and then our heart follows behind it. And I certainly believe God wants a woman to pour her heart into her sexual duty to her husband.
But many women get it all wrong believing that the heart(feelings fondness, desire for sex) is the only way sex should happen and I maintain that God actually tells women they can will their heart into action.
I hear women tell me all the time – “I just can make myself in the mood” and I say really? What do the Scriptures say:
It is ironic that the Christian asceticism of the early Church fathers still poisons the thoughts of women today almost 2000 years later. Many women associate sex with dirtiness but from a Biblical perspective it is the complete opposite. In fact I could argue scripturally that based upon Proverbs 5:19’s exhortations for wives to ravish their husbands with their bodies and Hebrews 13:4’s description of sexual relations in marriage as “undefiled” which would be a synonym for “pure” or “clean” that when a wife asks God to put a clean heart in her in regard to her husband sometimes means God putting a “sexy heart” in her that sexually desires her husband.
It could be argued that a wife who has negative thoughts about sex with her husband and one who thinks it is “base” and unnecessary is the woman who actually has a dirty heart from God’s perspective.
Women can ask God to change their hearts and renew their spirit and yes – God can put a woman in the mood to sexually please her husband if she allows him to.
Wood Chipper,
Your Statement:
I don’t disagree that when women realize that sex is a duty given to them by God that their sinful reaction to this can often be contempt. But we must realize this for exactly what it is – it is a product of sin. This is when we have to wash our wives with the Word and help them to rid their hearts of the that fleshly contempt. As I said in my last comment to Stephanie – women can ask God to give them clean hearts and renew right spirits within them in this regard.
There are many duties a woman has in life – whether it be sexually to her husband, caring for her home, or caring for her children. Would it be right for her to have contempt for her home duties or have contempt for caring for her children? Of course not. These are duties – but they are duties she should do with a right heart.
Do we have to bribe our wife to care for the home or to care for the children? We shouldn’t have to. Are there going to be days when a woman just does not feel like doing the laundry and doing the dishes and cleaning up? You bet. But those are the days that she needs to get with the Lord and ask him to renew in her a right spirit toward her duties.
Sexual duties in marriage are no different. God can renew a woman’s heart and spirit in this regard if she calls out to him.
BGR
I’m back lol
I did not want to challenge any of your points you made last time, as it was a lot and I was still unsure of what you said. But I have spoken with my husband about certain points here and his perspective is different from yours.
I also have not been convinced by anyone that FOTF is not biblical teachings.
I will try to answer some of what you said that I respectfully disagree with.
I disagree that marriage is treated like an idol when you try to preserve it no matter the cost. I think you give the ok to a woman to divorce her husband a lot more than FOTF would.
While I agree that divorce is in the bible, I do not agree that it should happen. FOTF is right in teaching this.
I do not agree that this is making the marriage an idol, rather it is making the marriage sacred and reflecting what God truly wants.
God hates divorce and the only reason He allows it is because of the wickedness in the hearts of men. So He set very specific laws around it.
To do everything you can to preserve a marriage is again NOT making it an idol, it is fullfilling what God would actually rather we do. Preserving a marriage should be the goal of all married Christians. It is clear it is what God wants. Divorce should not be an option as it was never Gods intention for it to happen. What God brings together let no man seperate.
Divorce brings many problems to not only the husband and wife but the children and by extension society and communities. Working out the issues with an unrepentant abusive husband or wife from a safe place before heading to divorce is not rebuked in the bible. It is healthy to place boundaries, it is biblical to continue to love and seek help for a person who needs it. Not abandon them. Some men and women need to understand there is serious repercussion for their actions. The bible does not object to this. But with grace forgiveness and love we set healthy boundaries within a marriage and not allow divorce to ever be an option.
Now your other point you challenged me in was when I talked about what a husband is to do for his wife.
I originally said that a husband is to not only exercise his authority over his wife but to also serve her and give in to her as well.
So you used specific bible verses to rebuke my statement.
But here’s the thing. While the wife is not equal to her husband in roles and final decision making, we are equal in our duties to one another and in having a say in a marriage.
A man that is truly loving his wife in agape love WILL put her needs above his own, he WILL be understanding and give respect to her and allow her to voice her opinions and feelings freely, and he WILL do for her as Christ does for the church. Because we are to die to ourselves and put others before ourselves. This is true within a marriage.
NONE of this undermines what a wifes duty to her husband would look like. Nobody is saying a wife has the right to control and dictate a marriage either.
She is to submit and die to herself and her selfish needs and put her husband first and respect his authority in having the final say. A woman should not treat her man as a child as that is very disrespectful, in fact its disrespectful to any adult to do this to them. And she is to honor his differences to her as well and want whats best for him ( meeting his needs)
We are called to be equals in our commitment and duties to one another. We are called to agape love one another, not just the man.
Once again FOTF teaches this.
It is not about who does what first, it is about focusing on YOU doing what God calls you to do first. My husband believes this is what the bible teaches. If you analyze EVERYTHING not just certain verses that relate to what God expects from a husband and wife and what is expect of us to do for others this becomes clear.
But just like some guy pointed out to me on here, saying that he would FEEL more inclined to WANT to love his wife the way she wants to if she simply did what is expected of her, so do wives!
Many men dont understand what triggers romantic feelings in a wife toward their husband either. They don’t understand a womans sexuality and dont understand feelings.
A man is not exempt from feelings or understanding his wife’s needs.
I know your site is about challenging
worldly doctrines on what a man and womans role in marriage is.
But your focus is very directed at women. You’re mainly teaching both men and women about what men can expect from their wives and how to put them in their place to achieve this, with a very obligatory attitude and verses that are one sided, that fails to mention other important aspects that are part of marriage.
In a way, your teachings fail to consider a wife’s perspective and completely puts the entire pressure of marriage on her, when that is NOT biblical.
FOTF is directed at BOTH, despite popular belief around here.
Yes I agree marriage is duty first feelings later but feelings are not a problem like you kinda make them out to be, they serve as an indicator for how healthy your marriage/relationship is.
And I understand you won’t always have good times within a marriage and you will suffer one way or another because of sin in our lives, but we should continue to strive to become better version of ourselves everyday and overcome these trials.
However, anyone that pretends that men dont need to be taught and preached to about their wives needs and feelings as a priority as well because it somehow undermines their masculinity fails to understand how corrupted men are in this day and age. That’s not a feminist perspective, that’s a realistic observation.
The world teaches men to be given unto selfishness, to not care about anyone else, they go after women and commit sexually immoral acts with every one that will give in to them and treat women like only a tool for their satisfaction, they act like only their feelings and needs matter, and treat women as flawed in their needs. And worse is many are out of touch with real masculinity and feelings.
Now feminism is doing the exact same thing to women, making them come out of touch with their feminine side, making them act more like corrupted men and to treat men like personal piggy banks and making them selfish and cruel as well. Teaching them that only their needs and wants matter, and that men are flawed in their needs and in acting superior to women. And now laws are extremely one sided and design to hurt men in all ways possible and women are taught to take advantage of this.
Both sides are under attack. It makes sense to focus on both when teaching biblical principals.
What you are doing is great in teaching women the perspective of men and teaching them their roles, but one thing I like about FOTF is that they dont take verses out of context or use one sided verses and dont focus on only one gender.
Teaching men to learn about their emotions and learn how their wife thinks and feels is not making them a feminist Christian.
It is for him to do a better job at doing his part as a man to better serve his wife and family’s needs.
Teaching women what their husbands needs are is also crucial and very much needed in this day and age as well. But one is not above the other in their needs within a marriage. And one would be wise to understand their individual spouse and meet their unique needs.
So that was it.
On a sidenote
I never said that I have a problem with men being superior to women in intellect or strenght. Only feminist get mad at that biological reality.
Yes that makes women unequal and theres nothing wrong with that.
A woman needing a man is also not wrong, and a woman serving her purpose better when it comes to the home and children is also not wrong.
There’s a lot we agree on BGR, But I disagree with you on divorce, marital duty being a womans job to do first all the time, and treating feelings like a problem for men and women.
“Many men dont understand what triggers romantic feelings in a wife toward their husband either. They don’t understand a womans sexuality and dont understand feelings.”
I’m just going to pop back in and plug Game one more time, lol.
RandomGirl,
Sorry it took me so long to get back to you on this – been a busy couple days.
Your Statement:
If you put anything before God’s law then you are making that thing an idol. I don’t even think you believe a person should try to preserve a marriage “no matter the cost”. What if your husband said he was divorcing you if you did not have sex with him and another man? Would do that to stop him from divorcing you? I am willing to bet you would not. If you husband became a Muslim and told you that you had to convert to Islam or he would divorce you would you covert to Islam to save your marriage? Again I willing to bet you would not.
Your Statement:
I would agree with 99 percent of the statement you made above except I would add a clarification that is of crucial importance and is the very crux of our disagreement – “To do everything that God allows you to do in his law that you can to preserve a marriage is again NOT making it an idol”.
RandomGirl,
Your Statement:
I agree with you that divorce is terrible for families and has brought many problems on our society as a result. I am fully with FOTF in their fight against frivorce. I am not against a woman separating from her husband in the case of physical abuse, or failure to provide(due to his laziness) or him denying her sexually. These are all things that God gives a woman a right to divorce her husband for(Exodus 21:10-11) whether FOTF or other Christians recognize that.
But I maintain that a woman CANNOT separate from or divorce her husband for any other reason than physical abuse, failure to provide(due to laziness) or chronic willful sexual denial.
Your Statement:
I have heard the whole “boundaries” discussion from FOTF as well as some other prominent Christian teachers. Can a wife set boundaries with her husband? Yes – but only those boundaries which God allows and in the context of marriage she can set only one boundary. She can protect herself and her children from physical abuse. That is it. It is the same with children – children can set only one boundary with their parents – and that is physical abuse.
Remember that slaves were the lowest social class in the Bible – so the rights of slaves bubble up to ever other class of person. What did God tell slaves concerning masters who were harsh to them? Did he tell them to set boundaries with their masters for a list of reasons? No. He said through the Apostle Peter:
“froward” means “harsh”. So Paul was telling servants(slaves) to be subject to their masters with all fear – not only to the good and gentle but also the harsh and mean. But in your advice and FOTC advice wives encouraged to help their men “understand there is serious repercussion for their actions”. Basically your “repercussion” is a punishment – a form of discipline to help someone change their behavior.
This is where FOTF is so utterly unbiblical and wrong. In 99% of the cases that FOTF advises wifes to put up “boundaries” with their husbands the wife has no biblical right in these cases to do so. In effect all she is doing is performing discipline on her God ordained authority in direct defiance of I Peter 3:1-2’s admonition for her to win her husband WITHOUT A WORD with her submission and reverent behavior.
Your Statement:
It is true that we are not equal in roles. But we also are NOT equal in our duties. Yes there are some duties we are equal in. We are both to show one one another the attributes of love found in I Corinthians 13:1-8. We are to forgive one another, be kind to one another and continue to hope in one another. We continue to love one another in spite of suffering wrongs at the hands of one another.
However it is absolutely false from a Biblical perspective to say husbands and wives are equal in “having a say in a marriage”. RandomGirl – that belief is absolutely 100% based on your feelings(and perhaps your husband’s as well) and finds no support at all in the scriptures. The whole “husbands and wives have equal say but husband has final say” is a corrupted version of the headship doctrines founded in the Scripture.
Your Statement:
Absolutely a man must put his wife’s needs above his own, as well as that of his children’s needs. His families needs come before his own. But when an authority like a husband or father puts his wife or his children’s needs before his own that his not the same as him allowing them to voice their “opinions and feelings freely”. There is a time, place and way that both a wife and children are to address the head of their home(their husband or their father). I am all for husband’s hearing their wife’s opinions and I see that as a man dwelling with his wife “according to knowledge”(I Peter 3:7). However he is NOT required to always hear her opinion before making a decision and he does not have to continually hear opinions especially when it is on a subject he has already heard her and it because nagging.
And yes “…we are to die to ourselves and put others before ourselves.” Amen and Amen. However a husband dying to himself does not mean he surrenders his position as his wife’s husband to appease his wife’s desires. This is you and many Christians don’t seem to grasp these days. Putting your wife’s needs before your own is not the same as appeasing her wants and desires. Husbands are called to in Ephesians 5 to give themselves up to make their wives HOLY, not to make them HAPPY and there is a HUGE difference.
RandomGirl,
Your Statement:
Let’s take this statement and divide into smaller parts:
“You’re mainly teaching both men and women about what men can expect from their wives and how to put them in their place to achieve this”
I talk about men’s obligations to teach their wives and children, provide for them and protect many times.
https://biblicalgenderroles.com/2015/05/30/10-ways-to-know-your-wife/
https://biblicalgenderroles.com/2015/05/30/12-ways-to-honor-your-wife/
https://biblicalgenderroles.com/2015/04/24/7-ways-to-let-your-wife-manage-your-home-2/
https://biblicalgenderroles.com/2015/11/24/16-ways-to-instill-biblical-masculinity-in-your-sons/
I have also talked to women about their what I believe is their biblical right to leave physically abusive or deadbeat husbands:
https://biblicalgenderroles.com/2016/04/01/4-steps-to-dealing-with-a-lazy-and-fraudulent-husband/
https://biblicalgenderroles.com/2015/08/16/does-god-allow-divorce-for-abuse/
Your Statement:
It is absolutely not true that I put the entire pressure of marriage on the wife – the husband has many grave responsibilities in marriage to love his wife by leading her, teaching her, correcting her, providing for her and protecting her. He also has the general responsibility of agape love for her in showing her kindness, forgiving her and putting her needs before his own. One of his most important duties is to know when to show her grace and mercy and when to have tough love with her in disciplining her for sinful behavior.
However, while it is an absolutely true statement that both men and women have responsibility in marriage and it does not all fall on one or the other that does not mean unity in marriage equally has to do with the husband as much as the wife. I suggest you read the article I wrote below to see more where I am coming from on that.
https://biblicalgenderroles.com/2016/11/23/why-unity-in-marriage-has-more-to-do-with-the-wife-than-the-husband/
RandomGirl,
Your Statement:
So can you explain to me beyond a husband showing the general attributes of agape love like kindness, forgiveness, being long suffering, and then the agape love that is particular to a husband in leading her, knowing her(see my article on I Peter 3:7) teaching her, correcting her, providing for her, disciplining her and protecting her as well as modeling the grace and mercy of God toward her in her life – What more than these things I have already mentioned do you think men need to be taught about their wife’s feelings?
And just as I said before – nothing you describe about men today is new. Men have been committing the sins you mention since the beginning of creation and certainly we can and should preach against those things. However feminism is VERY new. Never in the history of mankind have women all but abandon their roles as they have done today in mass numbers. Feminism has poisoned almost every aspect of our culture including most of the Church.
And on the issue of feelings – I don’t think feelings are bad. God gave us emotion. God has emotion. But God is much more like a man than a woman in the fact that he is not controlled by his emotions. God’s agape love, his “will love”, always keeps his emotions in check.
Contrary to popular notions – men also have feelings and emotions as well. But it is rightly considered part of being a man to not be controlled by one’s emotions but rather to be driven by one’s sense of duty and commitment(because men are the image bearers of God they must model God in this way). Love that is based on duty and commitment will also be stronger and last longer than love that is based on emotion. Again I am not saying emotional feelings based love is bad – but we cannot based our life decisions on it. Our life’s decisions must be based on the Word of God.
BGR,
YOUR STATEMENT
If you put anything before God’s law then you are making that thing an idol. I don’t even think you believe a person should try to preserve a marriage “no matter the cost”. What if your husband said he was divorcing you if you did not have sex with him and another man? Would do that to stop him from divorcing you? I am willing to bet you would not. If you husband became a Muslim and told you that you had to convert to Islam or he would divorce you would you covert to Islam to save your marriage? Again I willing to bet you would not.
Ok you just mentioned things that would be sin and the wife would have every right to ignore her husband’s request. You know the wife is not called to submit to such requests. What the wife SHOULD do is try to bring her husband to repentance over these things and NOT grant him a divorce. You also know he would be in sin to divorce his wife for any of those reasons you mentioned anyways. None of those reasons are given permission in the bible for divorce.
In a situation like that what a partner must do is seek godly counsel and seek accountability partners and get into the word of God to change a stray heart. “Divorce is not an option” IS Gods true design.
Would that be a time of tremendous trial for that spouse? Of course, the easy way out would totally be divorce and then you don’t have to deal with such a headache. I will go further and say that affairs, criminal activity, even abuse should not be met with Divorce, the goal should be to gain repentance from the spouse. Is this always the case? No, but YOU must not instigate the divorce if you are to truly live Gods way. If I’m honest, I would be very tempted to divorce my husband for many reasons IF they happened despite my core beliefs, but I know in the back of my mind that I would be greatly displeasing the Lord for taking the easy way out and not first seeking to forgive and help my spouse in their burden, because above my own rights is my husbands salvation and walk with the Lord, and helping a fallen brother or sister in Christ, even if it is your own husband or wife is also our calling and abanonding them in their sin just because you have that right is not what God INTENDED. Imagine if every husband who has been cheated on by his wife was told to divorce her now even if she repents because the bible says it’s ok.
Sure it’s ok and he won’t be in sin for it, but is he truly upholding his vows? Is he truly doing what God would do in the midst of sin? Does God turn away from us when we sin? Does God abandon us? Would divorce truly be in his and his fallen wifes best interest? Again does God WANT this to be the case? Is it still possible that you could suffer through this and come out even more holy and Christlike after your marriage has suffered such a blow? Of course! God was clear that divorce only exists because men want it, it does not serve a holy purpose otherwise. But staying in a bad marriage and transforming it to what God intended brings glory to the Lord.
YOUR STATEMENT
I would agree with 99 percent of the statement you made above except I would add a clarification that is of crucial importance and is the very crux of our disagreement – “To do everything that God allows you to do in his law that you can to preserve a marriage is again NOT making it an idol”.
You cannot be responsible for what your spouse does, but if they take you to court to divorce you can deny this. What will they do then? If they pursue it anyways and force you thats different, but I’m talking about you taking your spouse through it yourself or accepting it. You should pursue your spouse and seek reconciliation or whatever it takes to get the straying spouse back with you. Of course within the laws of the Lord. Lets say if a wife wants to divorce her husband because he doesn’t let her work, does that mean he has to give in to her to stop her? No, so then if she is stubborn she will proceed to sin and divorce him, and say he doesn’t grant it, what then? Of course the government laws could always interfere and all that but your conscious is clear that you are pleasing the Lord by not giving this an option. You can try everything it takes to get your spouse to embrace the Lords commands instead as much as you possibly can and then let the Lord fight your battles for you. I’m clearly talking about you being the instigator of divorce as a bad thing no matter what happens. What if your husband said he would murder you if you don’t do something against God? Would you do it? Does God not call us to suffer and die for him as well? You think sinning against God is in your best interest than death? Of course not. Divorce is the same. Is it better to appease a sinful spouse than to please The Lord?
I would say no.
YOUR STATEMENT
I have heard the whole “boundaries” discussion from FOTF as well as some other prominent Christian teachers. Can a wife set boundaries with her husband? Yes – but only those boundaries which God allows and in the context of marriage she can set only one boundary. She can protect herself and her children from physical abuse. That is it. It is the same with children – children can set only one boundary with their parents – and that is physical abuse.
Remember that slaves were the lowest social class in the Bible – so the rights of slaves bubble up to ever other class of person. What did God tell slaves concerning masters who were harsh to them? Did he tell them to set boundaries with their masters for a list of reasons? No.
This is where FOTF is so utterly unbiblical and wrong. In 99% of the cases that FOTF advises wifes to put up “boundaries” with their husbands the wife has no biblical right in these cases to do so. In effect all she is doing is performing discipline on her God ordained authority in direct defiance of I Peter 3:1-2’s admonition for her to win her husband WITHOUT A WORD with her submission and reverent behavior.
I disagree. Physical abuse is one of the only things a wife has a right to divorce her husband for, but it is not the only thing that can be hard to live with within a marriage, and it is certainly not suggested in the bible that the husband can treat his wife however he wants, and neither does it say that how he treats her is ONLY up to his discretion ..
and again this comparison to slaves is not completely accurate. A wife is NOT a slave, she is to serve her husband LIKE a slave, its safe to say a wife is above slaves.
Boundaries are needed within healthy relationships. Lets get into what I really mean.
Can a husband make you change who you are because he dislikes certain aspects of your personality or do you have a right to retain parts of your personality when it has nothing to do with morality or sin? Can he use you as his verbal punching bag to get his stress out?or get sarcastic with you in public because his sense of humor comes at the expense of others, especially his wife? Can he watch porn in front of her when she asked him not to do it in front of her? Can he watch violent or sexual movies or videogames in front of his children? Can he have loud sex with his wife when the young children are present because thats what he wants? Can he smoke pot or do drugs in the house with children present?
Let me say these examples dont have much to do with Gods laws or moral ground, and there are many men that don’t particular care or get why some of these things are wrong within their context. You as a wife do have a right to place boundaries that your husband might be overlooking due to immaturity, ignorance, or lack of empathy. This is where healthy boundaries should be placed, letting your husband know why such things are not ok and trying to get him to understand why this boundary needs to exist. Are you going to say that a good man would naturally not do these things? Because that is simply not true. Many good men (good husband and fathers) can engage in questionable things from time to time like these and to act like the wife is not allowed to place healthy boundaries on his behavior is ridiculous. She cannot yell, nag, divorce, stop meeting his needs, stop serving him, but she can tell him what is appropriate for the family and what isnt. If you tell me that the wife cannot tell her husband who smokes pot to go do it outside instead of the in house with the kids or that she cannot tell him to not use her as the source of all his jokes then we will just have to agree to disagree. Those things would not be suggestions, those things are boundaries.
YOUR STATEMENT
it is true that we are not equal in roles. But we also are NOT equal in our duties. Yes there are some duties we are equal in. We are both to show one one another the attributes of love found in I Corinthians 13:1-8. We are to forgive one another, be kind to one another and continue to hope in one another. We continue to love one another in spite of suffering wrongs at the hands of one another.
However it is absolutely false from a Biblical perspective to say husbands and wives are equal in “having a say in a marriage”. RandomGirl – that belief is absolutely 100% based on your feelings(and perhaps your husband’s as well) and finds no support at all in the scriptures. The whole “husbands and wives have equal say but husband has final say” is a corrupted version of the headship doctrines founded in the Scripture.
Having a say is a natural thing within a healthy marriage. I don’t know how you understand what I mean when I say “equal say” but Its foolish to suggest that husbands cannot learn anything from their wives or that a husband will never do what his wife suggests he do.
In that instance, both contribute and have an
equal say in marriage. It’s up to the man if he WANTS to give her equal say or not. Truly the man can allow his wife to call the shots in many areas of the home and even finances. He is the boss he can give her this role if he pleases, it is up to HIM how much she can be an equal say in the marriage. If he can accept that his wife might be more gifted, talented, wiser or knowledegable in something than he is, he can give her the task of calling the shots in that particular area, as long as she still answers to him in the end. Of course the bible says the man is the leader so, final decisions and what the family will do and the type of family dynamic that exists will be up to his discretion.
What wouldnt be equal say is that even if the wife knows better, even if she could give him wise input on something, she was told to NEVER speak to him about it, and to let him figure everything out on his own. Or that a man is to come to his own conclusions without any influence from his wife.
YOUR STATEMENT
Absolutely a man must put his wife’s needs above his own, as well as that of his children’s needs. His families needs come before his own. But when an authority like a husband or father puts his wife or his children’s needs before his own that his not the same as him allowing them to voice their “opinions and feelings freely”. There is a time, place and way that both a wife and children are to address the head of their home(their husband or their father). I am all for husband’s hearing their wife’s opinions and I see that as a man dwelling with his wife “according to knowledge”(I Peter 3:7). However he is NOT required to always hear her opinion before making a decision and he does not have to continually hear opinions especially when it is on a subject he has already heard her and it because nagging.
What I mean by voicing opinions and feelings freely is that they are not immediately silenced for wanting to say whats on their mind. I agree that he doesnt need to seek her opinion on certain matters that he will decide on, especially if she knows nothing of the subject, and I agree that the wife and children cannot nag at their husband or father once he has heard them and gave his order or decision to them. But there are men that do not like to be “challenged” in their decisions or opinions. A lot of husbands can be selfish and/or impulsive and it is healthy in a marriage that they allow their wives and children to speak up about their own thoughts, feelings and wishes without reproach and after he has come to a thoughtful conclusion, they simultaneously submit to his final say after being heard. That is a healthy dynamic in a family and its wise to strive for that kind of balance. I know this is not always the case, but im saying it should be the case if a man is actually striving to have a real biblical family unit.
YOUR STATEMENT
And yes “…we are to die to ourselves and put others before ourselves.” Amen and Amen. However a husband dying to himself does not mean he surrenders his position as his wife’s husband to appease his wife’s desires. This is you and many Christians don’t seem to grasp these days. Putting your wife’s needs before your own is not the same as appeasing her wants and desires. Husbands are called to in Ephesians 5 to give themselves up to make their wives HOLY, not to make them HAPPY and there is a HUGE difference.
Making her happy should not come in conflict with Gods law or what is holy I agree, this is not something I argued against?
Saying a husband should listen to his wife and do what she says is not implying she is the leader or that all of her wants and wishes will be granted. But the husband should not be so self absorbed either to ONLY do what HE wants and wishes even if it will make his wife and children unhappy, just because he holds that kind of privilege in a marriage. What I mean is abusing that kind of authority is clearly not biblical and you know this. So in a way, I’m sure you agree that anything outside of morality or Gods commandments should be balanced, not one sided to the husband/father. God wont grant us anything we want with the purpose to make us happy/appease us and I fully support a husband doing this for his wife and children or a mother doing this for her children. BUT God does give us what He knows will truly make us holy AND happy.
For example I did not want children when I was young, however I have 3 children now and I’m VERY happy I have them. God blessed me with them and knew I WOULD be happy with them, but I am fully aware that children are a blessing meant to make us more holy as well. This is a husbands true role within a marriage. To cater to his families needs according to not only what will make them happy but will benefit them and make them holy. This does not undermine that a husband is also to dish out things that will no doubt upset or bring sorrow to their wives and children, it is holy to deny them their wishes if it will bring sin into their lives or problems.
YOUR STATEMENT
It is absolutely not true that I put the entire pressure of marriage on the wife – the husband has many grave responsibilities in marriage to love his wife by leading her, teaching her, correcting her, providing for her and protecting her. He also has the general responsibility of agape love for her in showing her kindness, forgiving her and putting her needs before his own. One of his most important duties is to know when to show her grace and mercy and when to have tough love with her in disciplining her for sinful behavior.
However, while it is an absolutely true statement that both men and women have responsibility in marriage and it does not all fall on one or the other that does not mean unity in marriage equally has to do with the husband as much as the wife. I suggest you read the article I wrote below to see more.
I will check out your links when I have time. Thanks. I didn’t mean to accuse you of ONLY preaching about what women should do, but I have noticed that you speak from a very masculine point of view, which is not wrong per se, but I think you will agree with me that only speaking from a male or female perspective is limiting.
YOUR STATEMENT
So can you explain to me beyond a husband showing the general attributes of agape love like kindness, forgiveness, being long suffering, and then the agape love that is particular to a husband in leading her, knowing her(see my article on I Peter 3:7) teaching her, correcting her, providing for her, disciplining her and protecting her as well as modeling the grace and mercy of God toward her in her life – What more than these things I have already mentioned do you think men need to be taught about their wife’s feelings?
How frail and sensitive womens emotions truly are, and how different a woman can perceive a certain word or a certain action from her husband. Men and women react differently to almost everything in life. Men and women have different needs when it comes to their emotions. It is not about needing more than the word of God, God covers everything a wife needs, but its understanding what that actually looks like when it comes with dealing with their wife that takes a lot of intentional learning and applying that a lot of men wish they didn’t have to do. I would say the same for wives, however it is typical that women are more inclined in learning about their partner and their needs than men are in learning about their wife or children for that matter. In part, I understand that the reason this is, is not because a man doesnt care about his wife and children as much as she cares for them, but its because men are typically more focused on other things God has called them to do outside of the home, be it missionary work or their current jobs and ambitions. That’s not a bad thing at all and it should be encouraged in ALL men, but because of this, it is so easy for men to forget about their wives and children. I know there are exceptions, but typically this is the case.
YOUR STATEMENT
And just as I said before – nothing you describe about men today is new. Men have been committing the sins you mention since the beginning of creation and certainly we can and should preach against those things. However feminism is VERY new. Never in the history of mankind have women all but abandon their roles as they have done today in mass numbers. Feminism has poisoned almost every aspect of our culture including most of the Church.
I agree that feminism is a complete contradiction to scripture and satans ultimate tool by far. But again feminism is not looking at things through a womans perspective, which is what I’m actually talking about, the political feminism you are referring to is whats changing everything that God values in a woman and her role within marriage and family unit. In that sense I agree with you.
YOUR STATEMENT
And on the issue of feelings – I don’t think feelings are bad. God gave us emotion. God has emotion. But God is much more like a man than a woman in the fact that he is not controlled by his emotions. God’s agape love, his “will love”, always keeps his emotions in check.
Contrary to popular notions – men also have feelings and emotions as well. But it is rightly considered part of being a man to not be controlled by one’s emotions but rather to be driven by one’s sense of duty and commitment(because men are the image bearers of God they must model God in this way). Love that is based on duty and commitment will also be stronger and last longer than love that is based on emotion. Again I am not saying emotional feelings based love is bad – but we cannot based our life decisions on it. Our life’s decisions must be based on the Word of God
Yes I agree that mens primary emotions will be based on duty and commitment, and thanks to mans logical and practical approach thats NOT based on emotions, its the only reason anything can get rightfully done in this world lol.
But many men treat a womans emotional nature as a problem or wrong. God did NOT make a mistake in creating a woman this way. I agree that a man should not be forced to become a woman, but a womans perspective gives a man insight into certain personal hang ups he might have or harbor. Some personal issues men have that could be ruining their life will not be overcome by a man’s instinct to ignore it, so it keeps being a problem. Approaching it from a more emotional place can help a man finally be free of it, basically seeing things from a womans perspective. And of course women benefit from a mans perspective too. Sometimes you have to deny your feelings in order to do what’s right to get anything done, brooding in emotional hang ups should not be allowed at certain times, and a mans perspective is in order and really the only sane thing to do.
So thanks for addressing the points again. I would say for the most part we agree. But I am called to obey my husband and like I said his perspective is slightly different from yours and I would be dumb to argue against him, as we have in the past when I have disagreed with him and he gets angry at me for it. I think interpreting the bible is easily one of the things people will always clash on.
I hope that this has not been a nuisance to you, as I have enjoyed learning a lot more about the word of God through this!
@RandomGirl
Your responses so far are void of biblical references and reasoning from such points of reference. It is clear that you have an opinion, but what is not clear is if your opinion is subject to scripture or if scripture is subject to your opinion.
BGR has given you gems of great value, but by your response, I gather you are not teachable and would count those gems as worthless. The thing is that those gems were mined from the Word and to cast them aside as having little value instead of an occasion to provoke repentance in areas where you might be blind is the fruit of pride.
At its root christian-feminism is pride: it was pride that made Eve want to be as God and not subordinate to Him, it is pride that makes women discontent to be subordinate to their own husbands, it is pride that fuels the spirit of independence, it is pride that elevates feelings over humility and it is pride that blocks our reception to the Word of God.
Jonadab
What exactly have I rejected from BGR for you to claim I am forming an opinion away from scripture and being “unteachable”?
Is it really scripture im rejecting or is it his interpretation of it?
Like I said my husband has read the bible and has interpreted meaning differently.
Jonadab it seems you dislike certain things I mentioned, care to let me know what exactly I said that goes against the word of God?
@RandomGirl
I am not your husband or your pastor and as such I will not get drawn into shepherding you in this matter it is out of my jurisdiction and bordering on a usurpation of the authorities in your life. You can either consider what I addressed or not that is your choice. May the Lord bless you with a clear understanding of His Word and prosper you in this life and the next.
RandomGirl,
First on the subject of divorce. I know there are many good men of God that disagree on this subject. There are regular commenters on here all the time whom I would consider my friends that we have some disagreements on when divorce is allowed. But one thing that I and the other commenters here agree on is this – we may disagree on interpretation or application of certain passages of the Scriptures but we all agree our theology can never be based on feelings. I agree with Jonadab that I see a lot of feelings based doctrine in the beliefs you are espousing.
I won’t get into a big debate with you here on divorce as that would take us away from the main problem I see in the beliefs you are espousing. You can see in these articles where I articulate my beliefs on divorce, not from my feelings, but based on the very words of the Scripture on this area here:
https://biblicalgenderroles.com/for-what-reasons-does-god-allow-divorce/
But the real issue is that FOTF and you in following their beliefs believe that a wife can discipline her husband. The Scriptures NEVER EVER support such a notion and it flies directly in the face of I Peter 3:1-2 as well as the other entire dynamic of a husband being his wife’s most powerful human authority.
RandomGirl – it really is this simple. If an authority takes action against their subject – whether it be a King, Governor, Mayor or Police officer against a citizen or a Pastor against a member of his church, a parent against their children or a husband against his wife when this action is taken to enforce God’s morality this is discipline. It is action taken by an authority to either punish or attempt to change the behavior of the one under their authority. Discipline in this sense is holy before God – and follows his order for this human existence that we live in. Discipline ALWAYS flows downward – NEVER upward.
When those under authority take action to change the behavior of those in authority over them this is NOT discipline – but rather it is manipulation. Now you and focus on the family try and argue that a wife taking actions against her husband in an attempt to try and change his sinful behavior is somehow an exception to God’s rule regarding authority. You and focus on the family actually believe that God allows for this temporary reversal between a husband and wife all for the sake of trying to save the marriage. This is why I argued that FOTF and you in following their teachings have made marriage into an idol. This is a violation of the principle that we may never do evil(attempt to manipulate our authority) so they will do good toward us.
RandomGirl,
At some point I am going to write a post on this subject of “boundaries”. While agree that some boundaries that we set with others may be Biblically ordained the vast majority of “boundaries” doctrines taught today are unbiblical. They are based utterly on feelings and have no scriptural warrant – in fact many of the boundaries doctrines taught today undermine human authorities the Bible establishes.
Your Statement:
My argument was NOT that wives and slaves are equal. In fact I argue that the Bible shows wives(especially free wives) had more rights than slaves. My point was that the rights of slaves which are the lowest social cast God defines in the Scriptures bubble up to those above them in regard to physical abuse. I was saying because a slave has the right to be set free from their master for physical abuse – so too a wife has a right to be set free from her husband for physical abuse.
Now let’s get into the crux of your(and FOTF’s) beliefs in regard to boundaries. You said “Boundaries are needed within healthy relationships.” We need to be very careful when we use the word “relationship”. I have a relationship to the President of the United States, to Governor my state and the mayor of the city I live in. I have a relationship with my boss at my job. I have relationships with my coworkers at work. I have a relationship to the Pastor of my Church. I have relationships with my fellow church members. Then I have a relationship with friends, my parents, my children and my wife.
There are certain relationships that are a relationship of equals. My relationship with my coworker or friend is a relationship of equals. I can set many boundaries on those kinds of relationships as choose for the most part. But when it comes to our relationships with those in authority over us we are more limited in the types of boundaries we may set.
But even then with a relationship where I am the subject under someone’s else’s authority I can set certain boundaries all based on God’s law. God has given limited authority to my Pastor and my civil authorities. My Pastor has authority over the affairs of the church, but not the affairs of my home. He cannot come into my home and tell me what to teach my children spiritually. That authority falls on me and me alone. My civil authorities cannot come into my home and tell me what I may teach or not teach my children. So I can rightly place boundaries with my God given authorities in these areas based upon God specifically granting and giving me exclusive spiritual authority over my home.
And of course with all human authorities we can place the boundary regarding physical abuse and the fact that we will not obey a command for us to sin against God.
But the authority of the husband is the most all encompassing human authority that God established.
Now I am not saying the husband has the authority to sin against his wife or children – BUT the wife and children DO NOT have the authority to rebuke or discipline their father or husband for him sinning against them. In some extreme cases of physical abuse they may need to separate and ultimately divorce but they are never to discipline their husband or father. This is the concept that you and FOTF are missing. Let me take you examples and illustrate.
Your Statement:
A lot of people blame their actions on their personality. “It is just my personality”. But ultimately what we are talking about is actions. Maybe a woman is very talkative and her husband is not and he would prefer she be more quiet. Should he allow her some freedom? I think so. But guess what? If he does not then she MUST submit. She does not have a right to say “It is just my personality and I have a right to express myself”. That is not submission – that is rebellion. Even if her husband should not do something – as long as he is not asking her to sin or physically abusing her she MUST submit. There is “right express my personality as a wife” found in the Scriptures. None.
Your Statement:
The real question is “should he” do these things to his wife. Of course he should not. If a man shames his wife in this way then he failing God’s command to him I Peter 3:7 to honor his wife. However you will find nowhere in the Scripture where the wife can place a boundary on her husband about this, correct him, rebuke or in any other way discipline him. Could she share a grievance with him in a respectful manner that she was hurt by his actions? Yes. God says those under authority can share grievances with their authority:
Job 31:13 (NASB)
But she should never share her grievance in a situation like this publicly thus bringing shame to her husband. One sin never makes another sin right. She should share it privately with him later.
Your Statement:
I don’t think all porn is sin to watch. But a man watching porn in front of his wife and children is an EXTREME situation. In this case the most she can do is remove herself and her children from the room if the father is watching porn until he is done.
Your Statement:
Violence is another story. Playing violent video games or watching violent movies is not sin or wrong. Can she remove herself? Sure. But she cannot override her husband with the children in this regard. I had many disagreements with my ex-wife and some with my current wife about this. The most a wife can do in this situation is remove herself if she does not want to watch it.
Your Statement:
This is another “should he” rather than “can he” question. And guess what – for many centuries kids have heard their parents having sex and it did not hurt anyone.
Your Statement:
The drugs issue is another EXTREME issue like your porn example. The presence of illicit drugs can cause physical harm to the children and the wife might be right in removing the children if the father is involved in some types of drugs or exposes the children to these drugs.
Your Statement:
You do NOT have a Biblical right “to place boundaries that your husband might be overlooking due to immaturity, ignorance, or lack of empathy”. A wife is NOT her husband’s father, mother, Pastor or partner or equal. She is his SUBJECT. Your husband might be acting spiritually or other immature in some area, your husband might have ignorance in some area or a lack of empathy in other areas but while you may express a disagreement or grievance in private you may never ever set a boundary with him tell him what you will allow or what you will not allow. Can you imagine a child doing this same thing to their parent? That is what is “ridiculous”.
This is what those who challenge headship do. They are always looking for exceptions. Yes there are some extremes like a husband watching porn in front of the kids or smoking drugs with the kids. But those extremes do not negate the norm. Just because your husband shows you a lack of empathy or says mean things to do does not give you the right to usurp his authority and rebuke him. And just because he allows the kids to watch some movies(short of porn) that you think are too violent or don’t agree with or play video games too much or games you don’t like does NOT give you the right to usurp his authority.
This is where the whole boundaries doctrine goes off the rails.
Read I Peter chapters 2 and 3. Yes there may be many things your husband does to you or things he does by himself that you do not like. He may do some things with the kids you don’t like. But short of physical abuse or setting your kids in front a porn movie or him asking you to directly do something sinful you are called by God himself to “suffering wrongfully” for the sake of God. If you read I Peter chapters 2 and 3 you will see how UNbiblical your version of boundaries are.
RandomGirl,
This is my final thought and wrap up on this subject of what you call “a wife setting boundaries with her husband” and what I call “a wife disciplining her husband”. You have shown absolutely no scripture whatsoever that supports your belief(and that of FOTF) that a wife has “a right to place boundaries that your husband might be overlooking due to immaturity, ignorance, or lack of empathy.”
I on the other hand – have demonstrated to you in multiple passages of Scripture that a wife is to win her husband without a word and suffer wrongly when her husband mistreats her for the glory of God. Are there some extreme situations where a wife may need to remove herself and children? Yes. But those are extremes. A violent video game is not an extreme. Kids hearing their parents have sex is not an extreme. My beliefs are not based on my feelings – but on what the Word of God actually says.
I agree though with Jonadab that you must follow your husband as your spiritual head. Even if I think he is wrong – he is your head and I am not. However I am the head of this ministry – BibicalGenderRoles.com. I don’t mind people expressing opposing views such as yours. Jonadab disagrees with me on some things and so does Alex and many others who comment here regularly. But once we had the initial discussions we moved on and they are not constantly contradicting me as I advice those who come to this site in the comments section.
What that means is this. I have heard your boundaries beliefs and found them wanting. I welcome you to continue commenting on this site as long as you do not start contradicting me in this very important area about how wives should handle sin in the lives of their husbands. This is core belief that I have and it is a core belief of this site and it will be defended even in the case of sometimes I have had to ban commenters who are more of a disruption than a help.
I am not saying you have reached that point. I am just throwing a flag up there. I don’t allow advice on this blog that directly contradicts core values of this blog.
BGR
Let me say that I do respect your stand on this. I will not keep it going any more as I do not want to be a problem for you and your blogs and I will respect your wishes to not keep arguing. This will be my final post on this.
So it is what it is then. According to scriptures, all that women and children can hope and pray for is they get lucky with who their husband or father is.
He can run his house on immaturity, selfishness, or cruelty, and really nobody within the home can do a thing about it. Children will eventually leave but the wife is to remain her days to forever suffer in silence if the husband is to be stubborn and selfish to the end of his life.
All it means is that some will have a good marriage and others simply wont.
I obviously do not speak from experience, as I guess I am one of those “lucky” ones that does have a good husband and he is a good father for the most part. Of course he has his flaws and issues but nothing compared to others.
But really it is a shame that because of the way God designed marriage, many lives get ruined due to a mans corrupted sin as a husband and father. But then again, suffering is part of this world.
If the husband chooses to be rebellious to the word of God, it is absolute hell for his family.
That is obviously not Gods fault, but rather it is sins fault.
but I do believe that because of this, it is absolutely up to the husband to be what God expects more than anyone else within the family unit.
I get it. And I understand why you say Fotf is wrong for the whole boundary thing. But really I will listen closely from now on if it really is true that they condone a wife to “discipline” her husband as you say.
They seem to explain why the husband shouldnt do certain things or why a wife should place boundaries and explain the negative side effects of it not happening, but I haven’t really heard them say she can actually do anything about it.
Ok let me explain my husbands perspective
Ephesians 5:21 submit to one another out of reverence for Christ
And 1 Peter 3:7 husbands likewise be understanding to your wife
These two things can change everything you are saying.
My husband interprets these to mean that a wife DOES have a right to set boundaries on her husband that would be healthy for her and obviously if a husband truly respects his wife he will follow through. This isn’t about thinking the wife is stepping away from her place as subject, this is about respect within a marriage. And respect doesnt just flow upward. Like I said before, if you have a good husband, a marriage that flows both ways will become the natural dynamic in a marriage.
If you think this shouldnt be the case because certain scriptures says otherwise, when it CAN be the case using other scriptures this is where my husband would disagree with you.
Fotf teachings are with the idea that a husband would be a gracious authority over his subjects. A loving respectful authority will respect personal boundaries that would be healthy for the family to have.
It is not ridiculous for a child, especially teens, to place personal boundaries, the emotional kind, on their parents. A child can ask to not be talked to a certain way, or to be left alone when sad or angry and of course if the parents respect this healthy need in their child they will submit for the better of the relationship and well being of the child. How would this be sinful? Or is simply not mentioned specifically in the bible therefore it shouldn’t happen?
Again the crux of our arguement and that fotf is that feelings DO matter, not ALL of them, but some can make or break a relationship with someone, and to know where healthy limits SHOULD exists and having subjects be able to say so is not sinful. Again no one said the husband MUST do it or the parents or any other authority ( a boss for example) must do it but IF they did, it would be a lot closer to the kindness, compassion, respect, and sacrifice Christ calls us to be like. Of course it goes without saying that authorities should never give in to a sinful request no matter if it will hurt feelings as feelings never come before Gods laws. And I guess now I agree with you that the subjects dont have authority to discipline or make the husband or father respect their wishes. But you will agree that airing grievances goes with letting husband or father know where they want limits to be drawn and a respectful loving husband will submit to such a request, creating a loving and sacrificial family unit with a merciful authority that cares for his subjects.
I just wanted to explain a bit more on where my husband comes from with this and why we do support fotf.
But like you said I will not keep this going as I do respect your blogs say differently and I do not want to be a problem or get banned.
“Like I said before, if you have a good husband, a marriage that flows both ways will become the natural dynamic in a marriage.”
Because if the husband was just a better Christian, wives would no longer have a natural desire to rebel. Why didn’t God just give all the commands for the husband and then say what his wife would naturally become? Why are there even any expectations placed on wives?
RandomGirl,
Thank you for your respectful tone and I greatly appreciate it.
I know we are trying to wrap up this conversation but I just need to respond to one statement you made:
When I was getting ready to marry my second wife we met with the assistant Pastor of her church who was marrying us. We were discussing our wedding vows and I talked about my belief in submission. He used the same passage your husband references to try and teach that submission in marriage was not a “one way street” but instead God meant for submission to be “mutual between a husband and his wife”.
I took him to the Scriptures and adamantly rejected his view of that passage. This is what I showed him:
The root Greek word “hypotássō” is the same in verses 21 and 24. In Verse 22 hypotássō actually does not occur and literally in the Greek it is says “wives the own husbands as to the Lord”. So literally verse 22 is dependent on verse 21 to know what wives are to do their own husbands. This has falsely lead many Christian feminists and egalitarians to attempt to gut the entire meaning of submission in marriage.
However such an approach to this passage ignores a key principle in proper Bible interpretation and that is CONTEXT. Verse 21 and 22 represent a transition from Paul speaking about how church members are to behave toward one another(as equals) to now speaking about behavior within the family.
In the first half of Ephesians 5 Paul is speaking about how people are to behave within the context of the Church then he transitions from speaking about the church to speaking about the family. hypotássō like many words in the Bible is defined by its context. When hypotássō is used when speaking of equals(like two brothers or sisters in Christ in the Church) it means “cooperating with one another”. It is a voluntary cooperation between two equals. But when speaking of people who are not equals, like a master to a servant, a King to a subject, a general to his subordinate officer, or a husband to his wife then it takes on the military meaning which means “to be subject to or obey”
If I as a man were speaking man to man to your husband I would challenge him as I did my wife’s assistant pastor on this. Context is KEY whenever we look at words in the Scriptures. When Ephesians 5:21 speaks of “Submitting yourselves one to another” it is speaking of hypotássō in the context of equals. Brother to brother and sister to sister within the assembled church. Church members are to cooperate with another in the service of the church. But we know from multiple passages in the Scriptures that husbands and wives are NOT equals. So when Paul transitions to speaking about wives submitting to their husbands in the next verse we know based on the context that the submission has a very different meaning.
It is not speaking of mutual submission between a husband and wife. Remember that in the next verses in Ephesians 5 Paul shows that God designed marriage as a model of the relationship between Christ and the Church and then he places hypotássō in its proper context and meaning for a husband and wife when tells wives to hypotássō their husbands as the Church is to hypotássō Christ. Would we argue that Christ mutually submits to his Church? Of course not. Then it is equally absurd to argue that husbands and wives are to mutually submit to one another.
So in conclusion it is faulty interpretation to say that the hypotássō in Ephesians 5:21 – speaking of submission between equals means the same as hypotássō used when speaking of the relationship between a wife and her husband. Not once anywhere in the Scriptures are Kings told to hypotássō their subjects, masters told to hypotássō their servants, or husbands told to hypotássō their wives.
So yes your husband and the assistant pastor at my wife’s old church can take one verse of Scripture to try and cancel out or change what all the other verses mean. But words matter in context and the Bible never contradicts itself. Submission is either mutual(between equals) or one-way between an authority and a subject depending on the context in which it is used. It can NEVER be both. EVER.
If Ephesians 5:21 meant mutual submission between a husband and wife then the Bible contradicts itself and the entire authority of the Scriptures then crumbles.
I will leave it at that.
I don’t know how anyone can come to the conclusion that Ephesians 5 is talking about mutual submission because it clearly is not
We don’t even have to go to the “Greek” to know this for certainty, the English is plain enough. Verse 20 ends with a full stop, it’s a completed sentence showing that the mutual submission being talked about is NOT the same as the submission required of wives to their husbands, otherwise Paul is speaking reduntantly
The bible NEVER tells a man to be in subjection to a woman, but a woman is commanded to be in subjection and OBEDIENCE to her husband…..that’s not my opinion that is what God expects from the wife
Any attempt to extract mutual obedience from the husband in verse 20 to apply to the marriage relationship is a case of not only special pleading but is dishonest
If wives object that their role in marriage is to be under obedience and subjection then don’t get married….you will end up making his life miserable and his children’s lives miserable and you will end up as “rotteness in his bones”
Wood chipper
YOUR STATEMENT
Because if the husband was just a better Christian, wives would no longer have a natural desire to rebel. Why didn’t God just give all the commands for the husband and then say what his wife would naturally become? Why are there even any expectations placed on wives?
That’s not what I meant.
Many women will rebel against their husband even if he is doing everything the bible commands him to. Women are sinners too, I never implied that women dont do evil willfully.
What I am saying is it is EASIER to submit to an authority that is loving respectful and considerate. The bible commands you to be this kind of authority. The type of authority you get to be is not up to your discretion, however many men think it is.
It seems that a lot of men go into marriage expecting a hand and foot wife who will do everything he asks of her with no questions and a smile on her face while simultaneously HE gets to be whatever he wants.
The bible has specific expectations of men within marriage.
It boils down to will men become a Christlike authority or a selfish one?
Men have that power in their hands.
All I was saying is men will determine what their family unit will look like because they are in control of that. Since a wife is to do everything that is expected of her and obey his every expectation of her and so are the children, you will determine whether you make them submit to silly or selfish request that will deny them any happiness, comfort, or
healthy boundaries that should exists for the better of the relationship and individual or if you will be a considerate respectful sacrificial leader that will make a family unit that is more balanced.
By balanced I mean one that fullfills each family members physical and emotional needs, not just their own.
Theres a reason why men have more commands in the bible than women do. He doesn’t get to be any kind of authority he wants to be, he HAS to be the kind of authority the bible says he has to be, if he is to be a true Christian leader of the home.
And now that you mentioned it, women DO have a natural instinct to submit to the type of leader God expects you to be.
However we cannot deny that we are in a fallen world, where sin is prevalent, and a wife will be a sinner no matter what.
Genesis 3:16 your desire will be for your husband, and he shall rule over you.
This says that a womans natural instinct to submit as the Lord made her is now being challenged by a sinful instinct to dominate her husband.
Also a father has the power to break the family’s heart, so he is to be careful of how he runs his household as well.
Colossians 3:21 fathers do not provoke your children unto anger, lest they be discouraged.
Like I said, if men expect their subjects to be as submissive as the bible expects them to be, they need to be the kind of authority God expects them to be.
I’m not saying that they have a right to not obey anymore if the man isnt that kind of leader, because God still expects wives and children to follow their commands from God, but what I am saying is they will be provoked unto anger, be tempted to rebel, become bitter and resentful towards the man and his leadership, and make them only act on duty without genuine love or appreciation for the kind of husband/father he is.
Is God motivated to do what is right based on our submission to him? No.
Does Gods mercy kindness love and grace make us want to submit to him? Yes!
Why is God just nothing but authority and expectations and why doesnt He just dominate this world by force instead?
Idk about you guys here in these blogs, but my parents were catholic( and not very into the word), and when I was being forced to believe in a God I did not know or understand at the time I felt obligated to perform a duty simply because “God said so” having no relationship with Him and knowing nothing about Him, only knowing what was considered sin and what wasnt, and being told that if I did not do what was right and holy I would burn in hell, it NEVER motivated me to submit to the Lord. I know I’m not the only one. Many people who fail to understand God and know what He has done for us will feel this way. Since a husband is to act like the Lord in marriage I would also argue it starts with the husband as well and the kind of authority he is.
So yes I would argue that a husband can provoke a wife or children to rebellion.
God is a graceful and merciful authority, He give us free will to choose him. And gives us free will to submit. Why is this? He wants our faith and submission to come from the heart, in other words genuine. It is not forced upon, and His actions motivate us to submit to such an authority.
The husband will determine if submitting to him will be easier or harder.
The husband will determine if his house mirrors the love of Christ or the love of himself.
But again a wifes commands in the bible are not just about mirroring the churchs submission to Christ, but also to fullfill NEEDS in their husband that God placed in them, so if a wife is to truly honor her husband, she should be doing what the bible commands her to do out of love and reverence for him and Christ. She should acknowledge that she is here for him, that she is to fullfill his needs genuinely and dutifully. It is NOT up to her discretion, it is expected of her so she cannot make excuses for why she won’t.
But the true master and servant relationship God expects within marriage IS a give first take later one. It is a delicate balance that cannot sway one way or the other. Both husband and wife come doing for the other first, and it is sacrificial both ways.
I completely understand a mans point of view, and just like women can suffer wrongly when she is fullfilling her duties to an unrepentant selfish tyrannical spouse, a husband can be serving, providing and fullfilling his duties for a self absorbed rebellious spouse that makes him suffer because she simply wont submit to anyone but herself. And denys him, like sinners deny Christ.
I think that just being aware of what it takes to be in the others position can truly make a difference.
The one thing I am certain of is both sides will always make a case to say what the other SHOULD be doing first, but Gods way is YOU do what you should do first.
If you aren’t being blameless in your role, it is wise to first fix what you’re doing wrong than to fuss over what they are doing wrong.
Out of courtesy to BGR who asked me to not keep this going, I will not answer anymore on this topic.
cybersith1
YOUR STATEMENT
I don’t know how anyone can come to the conclusion that Ephesians 5 is talking about mutual submission because it clearly is not
We don’t even have to go to the “Greek” to know this for certainty, the English is plain enough. Verse 20 ends with a full stop, it’s a completed sentence showing that the mutual submission being talked about is NOT the same as the submission required of wives to their husbands, otherwise Paul is speaking reduntantly
The bible NEVER tells a man to be in subjection to a woman, but a woman is commanded to be in subjection and OBEDIENCE to her husband…..that’s not my opinion that is what God expects from the wife
Any attempt to extract mutual obedience from the husband in verse 20 to apply to the marriage relationship is a case of not only special pleading but is dishonest
If wives object that their role in marriage is to be under obedience and subjection then don’t get married….you will end up making his life miserable and his children’s lives miserable and you will end up as “rotteness in his bones”
I don’t want to keep this going, so I’m only gonna answer you this once.
You’re right that the submission from a husband and wife are different.
A wife is called to submit to her husband in everything no matter what, but a husband has a CHOICE.
Since he has a choice, he can choose to submit and respect his subjects wishes ideas or desire or he can completely ignore them.
When your wife tells you that you should do something instead of what you are thinking of doing, and you take heed over what you were going to do, you have submitted to her request. It’s that simple. However a wife DOES NOT have the choice to decide whether she will take heed of your requests, she must do them simply because you asked, as long as they dont cause her to sin, that’s it.
When we are asked to submit to one another and to humbly serve one another in love within the church, are you saying your wife is excluded from such a command? What does listening, considering and understanding a wife and giving yourself up for her mean to you? Does it not include to submit to certain requests and boundaries she might have as an individual as long as they are not sinful and not something that takes away from your headship or denies your needs?
A loving Christian husband would understand what healthy boundaries SHOULD exists within a marriage for the overall happiness and oneness in a marriage. It doesn’t just have to be about the husband.
My husband does uphold my individuality and my personal boundaries and honors them and believes this is what a true leader of Christ would do for his family and the bible doesnt condemn this.
He understands the need for healthy boundaries in an individual but that doesn’t mean that im running the household because of that. I dont. And I respect him even more for being this way. It is not a requirement for my submission however. The times we have fought and I’m not feeling like doing anything for him I still do what I must do for him and whatever he asks of me. And when I have disagreed about something and told him so, if he does it anyways I drop it and submit. Him treating me this way has NOT undermined his authority over me. I know my place and I respect his, but I am glad he is willing to do for me as well even if it doesn’t always make him happy or its not what he wanted but he knows I did.
So because The bible never commands a husband to be in subjection to his wife and to obey her, does that mean you go out of your way to NEVER let her tell you anything or do anything she asks of you? Is that how it should be?
Like I said, the only difference is one is mandatory, the other is a choice.
In truth maybe what is the problem is the word “submission” and what that entails.
But it is possible for a man to submit to his wife and that would not be sinful, it is only sinful when a wife refuses to submit.
I think what men dislike about the idea of submitting to their wives and respecting their boundaries is because they think it will limit their rights within a marriage. That isnt so if the wife is truly honoring her role in marriage.
Things like:
no sex because xyz
Don’t want to perform certain sexual acts
Not doing certain things the husband asked her to do simply because she didn’t like the request or thinks little of it
Telling her husband he must be back at a certain time or he can’t do certain things because of her “feelings” about it
Of course these things would be sin for a husband to submit to or silly to submit to and a wife would be wrong to even ask for or worse DEMAND these things from him.
You said if women object to being subjects and obeying their husband they should not even get married.
Yes it is quite a sacrifice isnt it? I agree with you there.
Just like it is to ask men to give themselves up for her when they marry.
You’re life wont ever be the same. It goes both ways.
So I hope that clears up what my husband means by submission. It is not the same kind of submission expected from a wife, but the fact that a man can submit to his wife’s will from time to time is not in of itself wrong, but I agree that it is not expected or mandatory of him and my husband does agree that this is the case.
Does Christ ever submit Himself to the church?
RandomGirl,
Your Statement:
I am granting you official clemency to continue this conversation for now – just continue to keep it respectful as you have been. What I meant earlier in my flag to you was not that we could not finish this particular conversation on this post but that I did not want to see you arguing with me all over the blog anytime I gave someone advice in this area of how wives are to handle less than godly husbands or if they are allowed to set boundaries.
So just to keep the discussion on track – we are discussing if God allows wives to set boundaries on their husbands outside of physical abuse and him asking her to directly sin against God which everyone here would agree to. We are also discussing if God ever calls on husbands to submit to their wives even if that submission looks different than that of the wife to the husband. So let’s try and keep it to those areas.
RandomGirl – I will let you know if we seem to be beating a dead horse and the conversation needs to end. But I allow these conversations to sometimes continue because I believe they provide teachable examples. The Bible says this:
I believe the truth shines even brighter when confronted with falsehood which I believe some of these teachings from focus on the family to be. So if you are willing to answer some of my questions and these others in a respectful manner as you have done thus far we can continue for a while longer.
Jonadab
No God does not submit to the church in that way.
Are you saying then that you should never listen or do what your wife ask you to do?
Are you saying that respecting a healthy boundary like for example something as simple as “dont talk down to me when you have something to address to me” is not biblical?
Doesn’t God listen to our prayers? Doesnt God give us what we want at times? Of course the Lord has perfect discretion as He knows exactly what would be best for us and grants it to us if it is in His will. That’s what I’m talking about, if granting a family member a personal healthy boundary or doing something a family member asked him to do is in the husbands will. He has that choice to submit to a request or not. And if he does that shouldnt undermine his authority in any way.
I did not mean to imply that a husband and wife are to equally submit to one another in a mutual agreement of equal power and equal choice.
BGR
YOUR STATEMENT
I am granting you official clemency to continue this conversation for now – just continue to keep it respectful as you have been. What I meant earlier in my flag to you was not that we could not finish this particular conversation on this post but that I did not want to see you arguing with me all over the blog anytime I gave someone advice in this area of how wives are to handle less than godly husbands or if they are allowed to set boundaries.
Ok I understand and no I won’t do that to you.
YOUR STATEMENT
I believe the truth shines even brighter when confronted with falsehood which I believe some of these teachings from focus on the family to be. So if you are willing to answer some of my questions and these others in a respectful manner as you have done thus far we can continue for a while longer.
Thank you BGR I hear you and I’m all for it.
RandomGirl:
“I think what men dislike about the idea of submitting to their wives and respecting their boundaries is because they think it will limit their rights within a marriage. That isnt so if the wife is truly honoring her role in marriage.”
This is precisely my point, because of Eve’s sin, ALL women can’t help themselves but try to usurp a man’s authority over her, see Genesis 3:16 “Thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee”…..Since the fall, the sexes have been in constant war for control and it continues to this day…this is where you get the phrase from “give a woman an inch, she will take a mile”….Unless the man puts boundaries on woman they will rebel and get out of control very quickly
It is far too dangerous and destructive to start allowing women to set the pace/and or boundaries during marriage as any man can testify how quickly sex becomes a weapon in her hands…she only dispenses “sex” if xyz is done, or if she is in the mood
You’re damn right men are afraid! lol….how can any man be sure that his woman is “honoring her role in marriage”?
Other than that I just wish to acknowledge that everything else you have to say is spot on, and I do understand where you’re coming from….I in fact have enjoyed the “balance” you have brought to this friendly debate
No wife should expect her husband to be a tyrant/bully, and it is hoped that he takes his role as husband seriously, and to be Christ like and gentle with his wife, whilst not forgetting their respective roles etc
@ RandomGirl,
I am about your age and I got married when I was fairly young. I understand your point of view and it is a view among most women. At the end of the day i’ts like women are not recognized and they are solely created for men, to be used by them as they please without being accountable.Whether be for good use or bad use. Women always have to submit in all things and men just need to enjoy life and be happy. No matter what your husband does, the church hits us(women) with one law, SUBMIT! Yet men don’t take responsibility for their actions. Hence we end up applying “desperate measures” and discipline them that they may act in accordance to the word of God. All of this naturally causes one to be frustrated. This frustration stems from the “unfairness” of the bible and inequality therein. But this is a lie. God is Just and He loves us no less than He loves men (Psalms 99:4). The truth is that these frustrations and debates are a fruit of feminism. I was once there myself, unknowingly so until the word of God exposed its falsehood. You speak of emotions and how the wife feels. You speak about “happiness” and “comfort”, “the better of the relationship”. Where is the word of God? Where is God in all of this “comfort”? You make no reference to the word of God, which is supposed to be the core of our conversations. This blog is a place of learning for me. When I disagree I turn to scripture, not my personal opinions and dispositions. It would be better if you supported your opinions with scripture, but now it seems like you argue for the sake of arguing, just to be right and probably to also “represent the women out there”. I assumed BGR closed this type of argument in his previous post when he mentioned Romans12:2. You only have fallacious arguments that hold no water in the light of scripture. As children of God, we cannot be speaking the same language the world speaks . Feminism is not of God and we should separate ourselves from such. (2Corinthians 6:17) The focus of marriage should be on God. That includes doing what His word says regarding marriages, not only what we prefer or what we are intellectually inclined to. You cannot chop and change the word of God to suit your personality or the situation at home that is evoked by an undisciplined&ungodly husband (Deutoronomy 4:2).Happiness is not the primary objective of life or marriage for that matter, Glorifying God is (Isaiah49:3).
RandomGirl,
Your Statement:
A pattern I keep noticing in your comments is you keep putting up this straw man argument that I or a lot of Christian men who believe that wives may not discipline or setup a long list of boundaries on their husband is that we think husbands can do whatever they want. The Bible says “the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man”(I Corinthians 11:3) and that means we as Christian men cannot do whatever we want but must submit to Christ’s headship over us as men(whether we are married or single).
We absolutely agree that every Christian husband is to model Christ in his leadership and his being a husband to his wife and father to his husband. No one here is excusing a man when he fails to live up to this model either in either little ways or big ways.
The question here is not whether men are right when they mistreat their wives or children or fail to live up to the model God sets as father and a husband. The question is two fold – what does a husband being like Christ really look like and how should a wife respond to her husband when he does not act like Christ? Can she set a list of boundaries with him and discipline him or does God call her suffer many wrongs(not all) at the hand of her husband?
Can you answer for me from your perspective how your idea that a wife has “a right to place boundaries that your husband might be overlooking due to immaturity, ignorance, or lack of empathy.” goes along with the call in I Peter 2:18-23 for servants to suffer wrongs at the hands of their masters(and the husband wife relationship is a type of master/servant relationship) and Paul leads right into chapter 3 of I Peter 3 telling wives to win their husbands without a word by their submissive and reverent behavior. How does your view mesh with this? Did a servant have “a right to place boundaries that your MASTER might be overlooking due to immaturity, ignorance, or lack of empathy.” Does a child have “a right to place boundaries that your PARENT might be overlooking due to immaturity, ignorance, or lack of empathy.”
I look forward to you explaining how your idea about how wives setting boundaries with their husbands fits with what the Scriptures say of the husband/wife relationship as well as these other human authority relationships.
cybersith1
This is precisely my point, because of Eve’s sin, ALL women can’t help themselves but try to usurp a man’s authority over her, see Genesis 3:16 “Thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee”…..Since the fall, the sexes have been in constant war for control and it continues to this day…this is where you get the phrase from “give a woman an inch, she will take a mile”….Unless the man puts boundaries on woman they will rebel and get out of control very quickly
Absolutely I agree 100 percent. Women tend to dominate a man that is very passive and easy going and rebel against a dominant and controlling husband. I won’t deny that women can make marriage very hard. That’s why healthy boundaries are needed from BOTH sides. The only difference is again the husband has more freedom and leverage in this area in the Lords eyes while the woman is at the mercy of what her husband expects of her. This isn’t me trying to throw a pity party for Women, it’s just stating a fact of scriptures.
But I agree with you that a man should definitively place healthy boundaries on his lady, however there shouldnt be anything stopping him from doing so, were as a woman has to get lucky to have a husband that can understand this for her to get it.
It is far too dangerous and destructive to start allowing women to set the pace/and or boundaries during marriage as any man can testify how quickly sex becomes a weapon in her hands…she only dispenses “sex” if xyz is done, or if she is in the mood
You’re damn right men are afraid! lol….how can any man be sure that his woman is “honoring her role in marriage”?
Look at her relationship with Christ. If she’s not in the word on a daily basis, if shes not on fire for God, if she doesn’t fear the Lord and if shes not intentional with growing as an individual every single day, then I could bet that woman is not one that will honor her role in marriage. It all starts with God. If she has true love for Christ she will have a true love of her role in marriage. She will see things through the eyes of the Lord than through the eyes of the flesh.
Other than that I just wish to acknowledge that everything else you have to say is spot on, and I do understand where you’re coming from….I in fact have enjoyed the “balance” you have brought to this friendly debate
No wife should expect her husband to be a tyrant/bully, and it is hoped that he takes his role as husband seriously, and to be Christ like and gentle with his wife, whilst not forgetting their respective roles etc
That’s great im glad you understood 🙂
ChildofGod
YOUR STATEMENT
I am about your age and I got married when I was fairly young. I understand your point of view and it is a view among most women. At the end of the day i’ts like women are not recognized and they are solely created for men, to be used by them as they please without being accountable.Whether be for good use or bad use. Women always have to submit in all things and men just need to enjoy life and be happy. No matter what your husband does, the church hits us(women) with one law, SUBMIT! Yet men don’t take responsibility for their actions. Hence we end up applying “desperate measures” and discipline them that they may act in accordance to the word of God. All of this naturally causes one to be frustrated. This frustration stems from the “unfairness” of the bible and inequality therein. But this is a lie. God is Just and He loves us no less than He loves men (Psalms 99:4).
I agree that the Lord loves us all and the fact women are commanded to submit doesnt mean we are less than. Jesus Christ submits to the Father and he came to serve and suffer. A woman cannot be so prideful as to believe she deserves better than what Jesus did.
John:15 Remember what I told you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also.
None of us are greater than God. We cannot expect to have a better life or to be treated better because of who we are/what we believe we “deserve”/because our feelings got hurt.
YOUR STATEMENT
The truth is that these frustrations and debates are a fruit of feminism.
No, my point of view comes from psychology. I know I just opened a new can of worms here, but I aspire to become a Christian psychologist. Understanding the human mind and studying it has always been a fascination of mine. Understanding how Gods scriptures apply to the knowledge we have through this is very eye opening. I know many dont believe in modern psychology, I agree up to an extent. Science and facts that have extensive studies and back up that do not contradict the bible are ok to me, anything that does contradict the bible is immediately rejected.
YOUR STATEMENT
I was once there myself, unknowingly so until the word of God exposed its falsehood. You speak of emotions and how the wife feels. You speak about “happiness” and “comfort”, “the better of the relationship”. Where is the word of God? Where is God in all of this “comfort”? You make no reference to the word of God, which is supposed to be the core of our conversations.
I have made several references to the word of God in my previous posts, not at first but I began to present scripture to back up what I was saying eventually.
YOUR STATEMENT
This blog is a place of learning for me. When I disagree I turn to scripture, not my personal opinions and dispositions. It would be better if you supported your opinions with scripture, but now it seems like you argue for the sake of arguing, just to be right and probably to also “represent the women out there”.
I am not doing this for other women, I am sharing my point of view which mainly comes from my husbands point of view. And my main point in the beginning was to defend Focus on the Family as they use psychology to explain a lot of their teachings away and I believe they give in depth insight to certain marital dilemmas and issues people go through and they use scripture to back up their claims. I am not so sure now of how accurate they can be, and I have taken caution now to really get to know the word of God well and then be able to discern truth from lies better, but to be able to explain why people engage in certain activities or destructive behavior, why people react a certain way, think a certain way, and how our own past lives and decisions we make impact others is great knowledge to know. Of course to me personally scripture will always win above science.
YOUR STATEMENT
I assumed BGR closed this type of argument in his previous post when he mentioned Romans12:2. You only have fallacious arguments that hold no water in the light of scripture. As children of God, we cannot be speaking the same language the world speaks . Feminism is not of God and we should separate ourselves from such. (2Corinthians 6:17)
Suggesting that healthy boundaries SHOULD exist, not saying they need to exist by all means necessary, but I’m referring to understanding why it would be good if they were present, is not feminism.
Feminism would be me saying that a wife can do whatever she wants and no man should control her life.
Feminism is saying that women should have all the same rights men have.
Feminism is saying that women are helpless victims who can do no evil and men are all vile and evil. Etc…I don’t believe I have come even close to suggesting anything of the sort.
The focus of marriage should be on God. That includes doing what His word says regarding marriages, not only what we prefer or what we are intellectually inclined to. You cannot chop and change the word of God to suit your personality or the situation at home that is evoked by an undisciplined&ungodly husband (Deutoronomy 4:2).Happiness is not the primary objective of life or marriage for that matter, Glorifying God is (Isaiah49:3).
I agree that happiness and comfort should not be the objective within marriage. But when you have a good marriage that mirrors what the Lord expects, those things become natural assets within your marriage. It is the result of doing things Gods way, you make it sound like suffering should be expected and even condoned within a marriage. We only suffer because of sin in our lives, not because marriage is designed to make you suffer.
To sacrifice yourself for your spouse is not the same as suffering.
Remember when you are truly living in the word of God you find peace, joy, love and eternal life. God does not make you suffer just because, marriage should not make you suffer in the sense that your spouse should go out of their way to make you suffer, holy things do not make us suffer. We suffer because we are sinners and evil doers and worshippers of self. And God deals with sin in our lives in ways that will make us suffer. And yes God can make us suffer for a greater purpose as well, things we might not understand, but are serving a purpose that is holy.
When God commands us to suffer the wrongdoings of others that is very different. We cannot repay evil with evil. We should honor our position we are in and let the Lord hold judgement, not us. we are called to do good, and to suffer as Christ suffered.
biblicalgenderroles
YOUR STATEMENT
A pattern I keep noticing in your comments is you keep putting up this straw man argument that I or a lot of Christian men who believe that wives may not discipline or setup a long list of boundaries on their husband is that we think husbands can do whatever they want. The Bible says “the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man”(I Corinthians 11:3) and that means we as Christian men cannot do whatever we want but must submit to Christ’s headship over us as men(whether we are married or single).
Yes and no, while you cannot deny many men do think this way, I also know that a lot of men dont do this. I’m not accusing anyone on here that they are like this, just that this is very easy to let happen in a marriage. Just like if a husband gives his wife too much freedom she will step all over him in a heartbeat. It is to prove my point of how much power the husband truly has in a marriage.
We absolutely agree that every Christian husband is to model Christ in his leadership and his being a husband to his wife and father to his husband. No one here is excusing a man when he fails to live up to this model either in either little ways or big ways.
The question here is not whether men are right when they mistreat their wives or children or fail to live up to the model God sets as father and a husband. The question is two fold – what does a husband being like Christ really look like and how should a wife respond to her husband when he does not act like Christ? Can she set a list of boundaries with him and discipline him or does God call her suffer many wrongs(not all) at the hand of her husband?
Can you answer for me from your perspective how your idea that a wife has “a right to place boundaries that your husband might be overlooking due to immaturity, ignorance, or lack of empathy.” goes along with the call in I Peter 2:18-23 for servants to suffer wrongs at the hands of their masters(and the husband wife relationship is a type of master/servant relationship) and Paul leads right into chapter 3 of I Peter 3 telling wives to win their husbands without a word by their submissive and reverent behavior. How does your view mesh with this? Did a servant have “a right to place boundaries that your MASTER might be overlooking due to immaturity, ignorance, or lack of empathy.” Does a child have “a right to place boundaries that your PARENT might be overlooking due to immaturity, ignorance, or lack of empathy.”
As far as what the wife can do, is simply tell her husband how his actions have affected her and how she would like him to consider that. And then just keep doing what the Lord expects of her as a wife. Theres not much more I can say there. We agree BGR.
As I said in a previous post, mine and my husband point of view come from a more psychological approach. We know how certain actions and certain things can impact a person’s life exponentially. We know why boundaries truly are necessary within all forms of relationships, but we understand that you won’t always get to actually have the right kind of boundaries in place.
I would still say that a servant is not on the same place as a spouse, since you are not “becoming one flesh” with a servant and you are not called to make a life with them till death. And a child cannot really do much to have their parents respect a boundary they might like to have but it can be granted.
Marriage is a lifetime commitment, parenting is also a lifelong commitment. Since these two types of relationships are an important part of your life, understanding what it takes to make the most of it is essential. The one thing I agree with you BGR is that you can never sacrifice Gods commands for whatever you think is best.
Proverbs 3:5
Trust in the LORD with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding
Here’s my definition of personal boundaries. Asking to not be talked to in a disrespectful way, to not joke or bring up certain topics around them, to accept that they might do things differently than you, to accept their feelings as they are, to respect their choice of what foods they are willing to eat and what not. Getting in a little heavier, not bring up certain parts of their past, not be made to perform certain sexual acts, to not throw insecurities in their face.
It might sounds so simple and silly, but I know plenty of people who try to override such simple things like this and try to force people into doing what they want.
I believe neither a husband nor a father or mother should try to dictate their spouse or childs life in everything. There should be room to allow the individual to be who God made them to be. It is in this very specific area that im referring to boundaries. Of course a husband or parent doesnt need to respect this at all, but is that truly a good thing?
Does it matter in the end if your spouse would do things around the house differently from you? Or does it really matter that a child might be upset, sad or even happy over something you personally dislike or dont agree with? Or that your child is into things you don’t find appealing? As long as all of these things don’t cause them to sin or are moral issues, is it something a husband Or parent should have such power to control over? Or should he allow personal boundaries to exists? I’m not saying he shouldn’t have power over it, what I’m saying is does he really need to exercise his power over it?
I cannot quote scripture on this particular topic since there isn’t any. The only scriptures I could quote are the ones that say we are to be kind, respectful and considerate of others.
But what I am sure of is there isn’t a single scripture that dismisses what I have said or that talks against it.
I’m willing to be proven wrong however. I’m not pretending to be right or accurate.
RandomGirl,
First let me explain two Biblical principles(in addition to many others) that every Christian husband and father should apply to his roles.
The Grievance Principle
Job 31:13-15 teaches those of us in any leadership role that we should be willing to hear the grievances of those under our authority. As human authorities we are not perfect and sinless as God is and we may at times sin against those under our authority.
That means whether it is my wife or child I should be willing to hear their grievances against me. However it is critically important as to how they go about expressing those grievances. If they express themselves as though they are my equal or do so publicly before others thus disrespecting me as their authority then they have sinned against me.
If I have heard their grievance but do not agree with them and they continue arguing their case over and over then they are being contentious and nagging and this should not be tolerated.
The Freedom Principle
II Corinthians 3:17 teaches us that where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty or freedom.
So do I think husbands and fathers should allow their wives and children some freedoms of preference in non moral areas? Of course. Do I think it is possible for a husband or father to be too controlling with their wife and children to where they quench the spirit of liberty in their home? Absolutely!
However I think looking at these as wives or children setting “boundaries” with their husband or parent frames the situation wrongly.
Only an authority has the power to set boundaries on those under his authority. Those under authority may remove themselves from a physically unsafe situation or refuse a command for them to sin against God but they really can’t tell their authority what to do. Aside from extreme cases the wife or child may respectfully express grievances or make requests but expressing a grievance or making a request is not the same as setting a boundary which requires authority to do so.
Now having explained these two principals that husbands and fathers should incorporate into their leadership we need to return to wives and children.
If you as a wife or child respectfully and privately expressed your grievance or request to your husband or father and they did not agree with you then God calls u to accept this. This is where the suffering servant concept comes in and yes it applies equally to wives and children. The father/child, husband/wife relationships are types of master/servant relationships while certainly being more than purely that.
One of the main differences between the parent/child relationship and husband/wife relationship is the nature of the parent/child relationship changes when the child becomes an adult and especially when they leave the home. The nature of the husband/wife relationship is life long and never changes.
In a future article I will be discussing a letter I received from a wife complaining that her young adult sons living with them but in college have more freedom than she does and why I believe that is absolutely Biblical.
BGR
YOUR STATEMENT
A pattern I keep noticing in your comments is you keep putting up this straw man argument that I or a lot of Christian men who believe that wives may not discipline or setup a long list of boundaries on their husband is that we think husbands can do whatever they want. The Bible says “the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man”(I Corinthians 11:3) and that means we as Christian men cannot do whatever we want but must submit to Christ’s headship over us as men(whether we are married or single).
We absolutely agree that every Christian husband is to model Christ in his leadership and his being a husband to his wife and father to his husband. No one here is excusing a man when he fails to live up to this model either in either little ways or big ways.
The question here is not whether men are right when they mistreat their wives or children or fail to live up to the model God sets as father and a husband. The question is two fold – what does a husband being like Christ really look like and how should a wife respond to her husband when he does not act like Christ? Can she set a list of boundaries with him and discipline him or does God call her suffer many wrongs(not all) at the hand of her husband?
Can you answer for me from your perspective how your idea that a wife has “a right to place boundaries that your husband might be overlooking due to immaturity, ignorance, or lack of empathy.” goes along with the call in I Peter 2:18-23 for servants to suffer wrongs at the hands of their masters(and the husband wife relationship is a type of master/servant relationship) and Paul leads right into chapter 3 of I Peter 3 telling wives to win their husbands without a word by their submissive and reverent behavior. How does your view mesh with this? Did a servant have “a right to place boundaries that your MASTER might be overlooking due to immaturity, ignorance, or lack of empathy.” Does a child have “a right to place boundaries that your PARENT might be overlooking due to immaturity, ignorance, or lack of empathy.”
I look forward to you explaining how your idea about how wives setting boundaries with their husbands fits with what the Scriptures say of the husband/wife relationship as well as these other human authority relationships
I spoke with my husband about this boundaries things once again and the two specific quotes you keep referrencing. He told me you are the one taking this out of context.
The one where Peter tells wives to win their husbands over without a word is talking about winning her husband to Christ.
Basically bringing her husband to Christ is to be done in this manner.
When you love and serve others and show the love of Christ they will be “won over” by your reverent and loving behavior as Christ does for us. He says it has nothing to do with a wife putting up with her husbands sin or that she’s not allowed to confront or place boundaries on his sinful behavior. It isnt forbidding that at all nor even referencing that at all.
Your other example is the suffering servant verse.
He says this is only for servants and does not apply to wives and you are interchanging the two as the same thing. He says that if you look at the rest of 1 Peter and what it talks about suffering that you need to understand the when and how of suffering.
He says that the when a wife is called to suffer unfair treatment of her husband is when she has done good and gets mistreated for it. For example if she stands up to her husband sinful behavior he will most likely retaliate by mistreating her or abusing her verbally or emotionally and that THIS is when she will suffer wrongly for doing the right thing.
The right thing would be to confront his sinful behavior because this would be in the best interest for not only her husband but the family. It is NEVER ok to allow sin to flourish.
So she will endure grief and suffering for standing up to sin and she cannot retaliate with sinful behavior of her own to defend herself for this honors God.
This again does NOT mean we are to witness sin as wives or children and do nothing and say nothing because we have no right. We as the family are not called to submit or tolerate sinful behavior from our headship, we are to expect Christlike behavior from them and we are to confront the sin in their lives.
If we as believers are called to confront the sin in others how is confronting our husbands or fathers excluded from this?
You need to acknowledge that the husband wife relationship does NOT mirror the master servant relationship. In marriage a wife voluntarily submits to the husband like she submits to the Lord. We voluntarily submit to God, we are not forced. However a slave had no choice. They had to do what was expected of them at all times by their masters. It is a very clear distinction between being a wife and being a slave.
Basically you using these specific scriptures to back up the idea of women having no say within a marriage against a sinful husband is innacurate. These scriptures as speaking of different scenarios altogether.
My husband is not just taking this interpretation from his own judgement but of other scholars, theologians, teachers, pastors etc that have studied the bible for years and continue to do so and they all agree in the way these scriptures are being interpreted.
The idea of women not being able to confront or stop their husbands sin is a chauvinistic approach the world created and it is NOT based on bible principles.
@Randomgirl
Unless you have supporting scripture to back up your case. Then its all opinion influenced by the world.
”You need to acknowledge that the husband wife relationship does NOT mirror the master servant relationship.”
Then neither is the Church and Christ mirror the master and servant relationship.
”My husband is not just taking this interpretation from his own judgement but of other scholars, theologians, teachers, pastors etc that have studied the bible for years and continue to do so and they all agree in the way these scriptures are being interpreted.”
And yet their views are in contradiction to what is taught prior to the 20th century on this. So if they contradict Luther, Calvin and the Church Fathers then there must be something going on. And is sure not biblical as much as they claim it to be.
@random girl
”He says that the when a wife is called to suffer unfair treatment of her husband is when she has done good and gets mistreated for it. For example if she stands up to her husband sinful behavior he will most likely retaliate by mistreating her or abusing her verbally or emotionally and that THIS is when she will suffer wrongly for doing the right thing.”
No. 1 He already pointed out the right way to approach. No 2. Inherent in your statement is the wrong attitude and way to do this which does nothing to change his behavior and contrary to the command of 1 peter 3 lacking trust in God and his power to help through prayer
No 3. A non-believer unsaved person will certainly act this way if sin is pointed out which leads back to 1 Peter 3 alongside prayer to save his soul. For the saved will when sin is pointed out respectively by his wife will repent like David repented.
This is an example of a woman who exemplifies 1 Peter 3:
https://peacefulwife.com/
She testifies that when she does obey God and trusts in him. God ends up taking care of things.
RandomGirl,
I just wanted to let you know I have not forgotten these comments – I am working on my responses to your questions and assertions and will post them as soon as I can.
RandomGirl,
Topic #18 – Is the husband/wife relationship a form of a master/servant relationship?
Your Statement:
No mam. You need to acknowledge that the husband wife relationship is indeed a form of a master/servant relationship according to the Scriptures:
Sarah called her husband “lord” which also means “Master” and this is the attitude that Peter is exhorting women to have toward their husbands.
Do you know what “husband” here is translating? It is translating the Hebrew word “baal” for which means Master/Owner the same word was used for slave owners.
For more on the master/servant aspect of the husband wife relationship see this article:
https://biblicalgenderroles.com/2015/03/03/is-christian-marriage-a-master-servant-relationship/
And on voluntary submission I suggest you read this article I wrote on the subject – you are absolutely wrong on that as well.
https://biblicalgenderroles.com/2015/10/03/should-a-christian-husband-make-his-wife-submit/
RandomGirl,
I have decided that I am going to ban you from commenting on this blog. It is not that I cannot defend my arguments and positions. In fact I have spent quite a bit of time doing that with you. But the Bible tells us this:
The answer to that question is no. Now that does not mean we have to agree on everything as Christians or even everything as those who believe in Biblical gender roles. But I truly believe you views are so distorted because of your “feelings” based theology and your feministic views and beliefs that wives and children can rebuke their husbands and fathers that there is far too great a gap between us.
You are not hear to learn – you are hear to contend for false theology.
Jonadab, Tyler, Alex and many other regular commenters and I may disagree on some things. But we all agree we cannot go by our feelings but by the Word of God. We may disagree on what some Hebrew or Greek word means or the translation and meaning of a passage and that is fine. But we don’t disagree on fundamental principles of this that this blog is trying to help teach people. One of the greatest things we teach here is the respect for Biblical manhood and womanhood as defined by the Bible and not our culture.
None of this works!!!!! He says that he hates it. Hates when I try to seduce him. Hates when I initiate sex. I’ve done every single thing in this list for years. And the sex has gotten less and less. I’m not even that old. Only in my twenties. I have always been open and inviting. Even when he says he hates me to initiate sex I still try to do it because if I don’t, there is no sex. Please address this. Not all woman think this guide is gross. I think it is wonderful. And I do them all. And I get firmly and repeatedly shut down. It just breaks my heart.
@redoperaglasses,
I’m so sorry for what you’re going through. It’s rare, but there are some men out there who don’t like having their wives initiate. Some men feel like they’re supposed to be the one doing all of the pursuing and the women are the ones always supposed to be pursued. Some of them have absorbed anti-sex messages from certain church fathers or other religious or secular traditions, and they’re alarmed by women who are open about wanting and enjoying sex. Then some of them just have low libidos and are embarrassed when they can’t respond. I’m not sure what’s going on with your husband, but you’re not wrong for wanting to have sex with him. I also don’t think that you’re wrong for initiating because he doesn’t make his own efforts to initiate. You do have the right to desire and request sex, and a healthy sexual relationship is important for your marriage.
The best that you can do here is to ask your husband why he doesn’t like it when you initiate and why he doesn’t try to have sex with you either. As BGR said in the article previous to this one, sex is a team effort in marriage. You’re doing your part. Your husband needs to do his. If he tells you what’s going on, then at least you two can do something to improve your sex life. Maybe there are things that you can do differently that will help. Maybe there are things that he needs to work on for himself. Hopefully, he’ll be honest with you. But if he doesn’t work with you on t his and the sex continues to dwindle, then unfortunately, you’ll have to accept that your marriage may fail, in spite of your best efforts to save it.
I love this article that you did it is so good and right on. Thank you. I’m just newly married and I told my husband I’m completely yours and I won’t turn you away and I won’t say no and he’s so happy and he knows he can touch me whenever he wants and I’m not going to do that repulsive look to him or make him feel like he’s bad because he’s not. his body is mine my body and my his and I just want him to feel good and loved and respected. Thank you again
Thanks so much for posting this. It has changed my life so much! I’ve been married for two years but amongst other things, I used to try to avoid sex and refuse performing fellatio on my husband… but this article made me realize that was not right… Recently one night when my husband came home, I knelt down before him and I asked him if I may performed fellatio for him. I had never offered before. And I have to say… it really made me feel for the first time I was in total submission to my husband. I was truly kneeling in his shadow and I felt his authority over me. He gave me instructions and guided me, he also guided me to take his fruit… It was my very first time tasting it and it made me feel very feminine. I could tell my husband loved it. He has since required me to kneel in the shadow of his apple tree every week, I am happy each time to please him now and I think it has helped reinforce the feeling of my submission to him. I do feel he has absolute authority over me now and I am happy to be in submission to him. It is all thanks to you sir!
Good article. Male. Married. Cool or cold wife, always has been. Sex was seen by her matriarchal mother as a duty. Guess what, got passed on. Excellent traits otherwise but the physical is a necessity and more than once a month under protest as “not again”… I give her massages and for 45 to 60 minutes numerous times per week. Try to “touch”.. Hey! 27 years of cold nights. Wake up marrieds.
This is straight to the point. I’m male, married and enduring, not enjoying 15 years of marriage. Years of anxiety from will she say yes or no and rejections have to erectile dysfunction. I wish all marriages would practice what this article recommends. I really wished mine did! Many of the points mentioned in the article are the things I wished and longed for. Nakedness of my wife eludes me among many others. Why do I have to miss out on the beauty and fulfillment that God put in sexualty in marriage relationship?? Our bone of contentions has always been sex. My wife does not see the importance of sex and intimacy in marriage. Am I stuck?
Joe,
I am sorry to hear of your situation with your wife. Unfortunately this is an all too common occurrence in many Christian marriages. As far as your question of being “stuck” I think the answer is twofold.
1. Yes – you are stuck in the sense that you must remain married as long as your wife has sex with you. Bad sex, or low quality sex is not a Biblical allowance for divorce. However if she completely not having sex with you that is an act of sexually related sin, or sexual immorality and that is cause for divorce. See my article for more on this https://biblicalgenderroles.com/2015/05/23/8-steps-to-confront-your-wifes-sexual-refusal/
2. No – While you must remain married to your wife this does not mean you have to be stuck in the same routine. If she is not meeting your needs for variety, seeing her nakedness or sexual frequency there are things you can do. I allude to many of these in the article I just gave you. If I were to sum up what I say in that article it would be this. Do not reward your wife’s bad behavior. Do you buy your wife nice things she does not deserve? Do you take her to nice dinners and on nice trips all in the hopes that she will see the error of her ways and meet your sexual needs? STOP! Don’t reward bad behavior. Instead show her there is a direct correlation between your affection toward her and her behavior in the bedroom.
Many women do not understand what most men do about love in marriage. There are two kinds of love in marriage – one is based in duty and a commitment of the will to the other and the other type of love is affection which is very conditional based on what she does. She does not have to earn that fact that you will be her husband and take care of her needs. But she DOES have to earn you affection. Make her earn it.
In the worst case situation even if she does not change you are not rewarding her bad behavior.
thank you this was an amazing post! as a bride to be i no longer have worry about “prudish” sex. i can feel confident in pleasing my husband
Amen to that; and both you and your husband will be blessed and strong for it exactly the way God meant it to be.