How to train your wife not to be jealous

Do you have a Christian wife whose jealous behaviors drive you nuts as a Christian husband? Does she want to know your every move? Does she need to know about every phone call you make? Does she need to know the password for your computer or the electronic devices? Is she jealous of any time you spend with your guy friends or perhaps she is even jealous of time you spend with your children?

If this is the case with your wife, then you may have the first type of jealous wife which is a possessive jealous wife.

But then there is a second type of jealous wife. This the wife who constantly compares how you treat her with how her friends are treated by their husbands.  Perhaps she even compares you to couples on TV and how the husband’s treat their wives. Her comparisons may be about words of affection, or gifts or going places together.

If this is the case with your wife, then you have the second type of jealous wife which is an envious jealous wife.

But aren’t some kinds of jealousy from a wife a good thing?

Jealousy is a bit like anger.  It is often what we do with these feelings that makes them sin or not sin.  However, there are some things we have no right to be angry over and there are some things we have no right to be jealous over.  The Bible tells us that we must compare every thought and feeling we have against the knowledge of God and make it obedient unto Christ.

“Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;”

2 Corinthians 10:5 (KJV)

There is actually only one type of jealousy felt by wives toward their husbands that we see is accepted by God and actually can be a force to motivate a wife to be a better wife and that is the envious type of jealousy.  But before you get confused and think I am saying the behavior of the envious jealous wife in my example above is acceptable before God please know I am not saying that at all.

“But I say, Did not Israel know? First Moses saith, I will provoke you to jealousy by them that are no people, and by a foolish nation I will anger you.”

Romans 10:19 (KJV)

God actually took a new bride, the church, in order to make his first wife Israel jealous. God had warned his first wife, he rebuked her and called her to come back to him, he disciplined her and finally had to divorce her (Jeremiah 3:8).  But he still loved her.

The type of jealousy that God was trying to provoke in Israel was not a possessive jealousy because in God’s design of marriage a wife never possesses her husband, but rather he possesses her.  Rather God was trying to prove an envious jealousy in his former wife Israel when she witnessed the affection that God lavished on his new bride – the Church. The Bible tell us that in the future this final act of God to provoke his first wife to jealousy will work and the nation of Israel will return to him (Romans 11:26).

If a wife uses her envious jealousy to make herself a better wife so that she may earn more affection from her husband, then there is no sin in that.  But if she allows her envious jealousy to make her bitter toward her husband for him not showing her certain types of affection or giving her certain things she desires then she has allowed her jealousy to cause sin in her life rather than good.

Wives are forbidden from having possessive jealousy toward their husbands

In the last couple sections, I talked about the fact that the only type of jealousy God allows from wives and even sometimes encourages from wives toward their husbands is the envious type of jealousy.  If only envious jealousy is allowed for wives and even then it must be channeled for self-improvement, not bitterness this then leaves out possessive jealousy.

God actually prescribed a test for husbands when they felt jealous toward their wives in Numbers 5:12-31.  There are many non-believers and even some Christians today who mock this passage as some sort of “Biblical voodoo” but make no mistake those who do so attack the very integrity of the Word of God. While it is impossible for Christian husbands to practice this today as the Old Testament priesthood has been done away with and Christ is now our new high priest and the law has been changed (Hebrews 7:12), it does prove the point that God allows for men to be possessively jealous of their wives.  Can men sometimes be too possessive of their wives? Yes but that is a topic for another post.

But while God prescribed a test for husbands who felt jealous toward their wives if they felt they were being unfaithful to them – God prescribed no such test for wives who felt jealous toward their husbands.  Why? Because in God’s design a wife does not possess or own her husband but rather the husband exclusively owns and possesses his wife.

“Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour’s.”

Exodus 20:17 (KJV)

The English translation of Proverbs 31 masks the ownership of the husband over the wife.  The word that is translated as “husband” in Proverbs 31 is not the normal Hebrew word for husband but rather it is the same word used for owners of slaves and livestock:

“10 Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies. 11 The heart of her husband (lit. Owner) doth safely trust in her, so that he shall have no need of spoil.”

Proverbs 31:10-11 (KJV)

For more on the topic of husband’s owning their wives and children and the treatment of human property in the Bible see my article “Does the Bible teach the concept of human property?

The reason that a husband owns his wife as well as the reason for the Bible calling for the subjection of women to their husbands is because the husband/wife relationship was designed by God as a symbol of the relationship between himself and his people.

“23 For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. 24 Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing.”

Ephesians 5:23-24 (KJV)

Does the Church own Christ or does Christ own the Church? The answer to that question is the same answer as to if a husband owns his wife. This is why we see a bride price being paid for women to their father’s throughout the Bible.  The transfer of a daughter from her father to her husband was a property exchange.   Is this entire concept of men owning their wives and children offensive to our modern egalitarian views? Of course it is. But it is the God’s design according the Word of God.

But it is for the reasons I have just shown that a wife is absolutely forbidden from having or acting on a possessive jealousy toward her husband.  Her husband does not belong to her but rather she belongs to him and he belongs to God.  When a wife allows herself or is allowed by her husband to act in a possessively jealous way toward her husband this breaks the symbolism and roles in marriage which God designed.

Ways to train your wife in regard to her jealousy

Step #1 – Correct her possessive jealousy toward your thoughts

Women are usually far worse about this than men although there are some overly possessive men that are bad in this area.  But many wives want to know or possess every thought in their husband’s head.  They do not have a right to possess these thoughts of their husband.

If you want to share your thoughts with your wife, then you can.  If you don’t wish to then tell her you do not wish to.  She has no right to your thoughts.  Even with husbands I have mentioned that while the husband role has the most power of any human authority God did not give husbands the ability to read their wives’ minds or the power to compel their thoughts.

As Christians we are required to be “bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ”, rather than making our every thought captive to our spouse, parent or other human authority. Husbands have authority over their wives’ words and actions, not their thoughts. God is the only one who knows our thoughts and can command our thoughts.

Step #2 – Correct her possessive jealousy toward your time

The Bible requires husbands in regard to their wives to “dwell with them according to knowledge” (I Peter 3:7) and this certainly would require a husband spending some time with his wife and talking to his wife. You can’t know your wife’s heart, her needs, her concerns without spending some time with her.

However, you as her husband and the head of your home are the determiner of when you spend time with your wife.  You might have to travel for work or even if you don’t travel you may have to work a lot of hours locally. You need to spend time with your children and you should set aside some alone time for yourself as this is a healthy thing to do.

But what you need to emphasize to your wife is that yes you recognize that you need to set aside some time to spend with her, but she does not possess your time and it is your discretion as to when you will spend your time with her.

Step #3 – Correct her possessive jealousy regarding other women

The position I take based on my understanding of the Scriptures on this particular type of jealousy is going to be the most controversial and it where I will spend the most time on this topic.  Most Christian preachers and teachers today will teach that wives have a God given right to be possessively jealous toward their husbands regarding other women.  They teach this based on these beliefs:

  1. Polygamy was a corruption of God’s design for marriage. So if a woman’s husband has any sexual thoughts about other women, or enjoys visually taking in the view of other women or if he desires to marry a woman as an additional wife this is not based on a God given desire but it comes from his sin nature.
  2. Because they believe man’s polygamous nature is a corruption and not by design they believe all his sexual thoughts and energy must be solely directed at one woman – his one and only wife.
  3. While many Christian teachers believe the first two points I have just given on this third point they will disagree. If a man’s desire toward a variety of women (polygamous desire) is a corruption of God’s design of his sexual nature, then does his wife have the right to confront him and force him to focus all this sexual thoughts and energy on her? Those who believe a wife has the power to confront and rebuke her husband’s sin will say yes.  Those who believe a wife has no such power will say she must pray for her husband and leave him to the Lord.

But regardless of whether they embrace all three beliefs most Christian teachers will maintain that a wife’s possessive jealousy toward her husband is justified because she is simply reacting to her husband’s violation of God’s design of marriage.  They just disagree on what she can do based on that jealousy.

But these beliefs in the justification for wife’s possessive jealousy toward their husbands in regard to other women do so in defiance of the Scriptures.

To reject the polygamous design of man is to reject the weight of the Scriptures

The three most common arguments that anti-polygamy advocates attempt to use to support their belief that polygamy is a corruption of God’s design of marriage and sexuality are:

“God only gave Adam one wife in the garden of Eden, not many” (Genesis 2:21-24)

“God says a pastor must be the husband of one wife” (I Timothy 3:2)

“Look at all the jealousy that was caused between wives because of polygamy” (Genesis 29 & 30)

The first argument is faulty based on rules of Scriptural interpretation.

Whenever we are trying under God’s will on any subject we need to follow certain rules.  The New Testament interprets the Old Testament, commands outweigh examples and the weight of Scripture interprets Scripture. The anti-polygamy stance of the modern Christian church is a violation of the last two rules.

Anti-polygamists give us the example of God only making one wife for Adam as proof that polygamy is against his design yet they ignore examples of God saying he gave David his Saul’s wives (2 Samuel 12:8) and the example of God picturing himself as a polygamist husband to two wives two passages of Scripture (Ezekiel 23:2-4 & Romans 10:19).

So right there we have examples that God does in fact allow polygamy.  But the evidence does not stop there. Rather than just example we actually have a direct command from God allowing men to take other wives as long as they care for their first wives (Exodus 21:10-11).

The second argument regarding the qualifications for bishops is faulty as well. God’s restriction on pastor’s having one wife is not worded as a condemnation of polygamy or a change in God’s position on polygamy. If it is referring to a restriction against polygamy, then it is a restriction for pastor’s only just as priests in the Old testament had stricter marriage rules than other men (Leviticus 21:14).  It could just as easily be referring to the fact that a Pastor must not have divorced any of his wives as there is similar wording for widows serving in the church that they had to have “been the wife of one man” and this was referring to divorce.

The third argument regarding jealousy is perhaps the weakest of the three arguments against polygamy. It assumes that the jealousy of these wives toward each other and their husband lay at the feet of the practice of polygamy. Often the story of Rachel and Leah from Genesis 29 & 30 is one example of jealous wives that anti-polygamists use.

The funny thing is this story if you examine it closely actually works against anti-polygamists.  In this story we have Jacob who is madly in love with Rachel yet he tricked into marrying her older sister Leah who is less attractive first. God sees after he marries Rachel that Jacob is not showing the love for Leah that he should so makes her fertile and he makes Rachel barren. Leah has an envious jealousy toward Rachel and she tries to have as many children as she can for Jacob so that maybe he will show her the affection she so desires.

Eventually Leah does something that would make modern women today cringe.  She actually gives her husband her servant girl as a wife and God actually rewards her for it by giving her another son.

“And Leah said, God hath given me my hire[or reward], because I have given my maiden to my husband: and she called his name Issachar.”

Genesis 30:18 (KJV)

But anti-polygamists would have us to dismiss all these Biblical examples of God condoning polygamy and his express command allowing it based on their arguments from the creation example, the qualifications for a pastor and the fact of jealous wives.

The fact is God designed men with the capacity and desire to have multiple wives in the same way he designed women with the capacity and desire to have multiple children.  Until the Roman empire outlawed polygamy after the time of Christ society did not condemn men desiring multiple wives. And until the dawn of the feminist movement over a century ago society did not condemn women for desiring multiple children.   Now society condemns both.  But God’s design has not changed.

For more on the discussion of polygamy see my series “Why polygamy is not unbiblical” as well as my article “Was polygamy a sin God overlooked in the Old Testament?”.

So how do you as husband confront this type of possessive jealousy in your wife?

First you need to teach your wife the Word of God.  Take her through the Scriptures I have mentioned here regarding the polygamous nature of man. Let’s face it – most men in our culture will never be able to actually marry multiple wives both because of economic reasons and the societal taboos against it.  And yes, polygamy has been made illegal but the governments of man have no business in an institution that God created.  Laws against having multiple wives are about as valid as laws against having multiple children(China). Yes, we are to obey man’s laws as long as his law does go into areas God did not give the government power over (examples would be marriage, family and the church).

But regardless of whether or not your wife accepts the evidence from Scripture that God created you as a man with a polygamous capacity and nature she must accept that she is not your head and you are not accountable to her but to God.  If she disagrees she must accept the disagreement and agree not to hound, you about enjoying the beauty of other women.  Now as anyone who has read my posts on polygamy and sexuality knows I am not talking about men gawking at women everywhere they go.  That is rude. I am talking about me taking tasteful glances of beautiful women.

Step #4– Help your wife channel her jealousy into a positive force for change

Previously I had mentioned that a woman’s jealousy can actually be a positive force.  In this last step I want to elaborate on that with examples. Now I purposefully had to hold this step for last because I needed to discuss the polygamous nature of men in step 3 first.

This last step I am going to write in a way that you could present it directly to your wife.  Even if your wife rejects the Scriptures I have shown proving the polygamous nature of man I believe she still could channel her jealous energy into these steps and she may find that you look at other women less if she is constantly getting your attention in other positive ways. So, with that being said here is a list you can give your wife with ways for her to channel her jealous energy into positive actions.

  1. If you see that your husband seems to be looking at red heads the perhaps dye your hair red.
  2. If you see that your husband seems to like a certain type of blouse or skirt on a woman, then go and buy a blouse and skirt similar to that.
  3. If you see your husband looking at women that are thinner than you then you have to ask this question – “Am I way overweight compared to when he met me?” Now obviously with having children and age women gain weight and some of it is almost impossible to lose and you have to recognize your limitations. Maybe you will never be the weight you once were but have you given up? Have you lost as much weight as you can for your age and body type? So instead of being angry at your husband for looking at women that are less overweight perhaps you can channel that jealous energy into losing weight.
  4. If you are walking through the mall and you see your husband glance at a couple of women in their early 20’s and you are mom of 4 in your mid 30’s how do you compete with that? The answer is you don’t. You will never be that young again. But you have something those women do not have. You have experience. You have a history with your husband and that counts for something. I believe Christian wives should have sexy selfies standing by.  Maybe your husband glances at a few young women and instead of getting mad you send him a selfie from your personal library with a sexy note about what he has to look forward to when he gets home.

Every one of these steps requires a woman to humble herself and realize that she does not possess her husband but instead he possesses her. God did not make him for her, but rather he made her for him (1 Corinthians 11:9).  It calls on her to put all of her pride and insecurities to death and for her to instead channel her jealous energy into positive things that will strengthen her husband’s affection for her rather than diminishing his affection for her.

Your wife can look at this list and even listen to all the other principles I have put here and choose one of two paths.

The path of pride

Your wife can choose the path of pride and allow her jealousy to grow into bitterness toward you as her husband.  She can comfort herself with this thought:

“I don’t have to change; I don’t have to compete for my husband’s affection.  He owes it to me no matter what I do! The way I look is the way I look – I am not changing a thing whether it is how I dress, how much I weigh or what I do for him sexually. He is supposed to be completely satisfied in whatever I do or don’t do.  He is supposed to be a one-woman man and that one woman is me!”

The path of humility

Your wife can choose the path of humility with this simple thought:

“My husband was not made for me, but I was made for him (1 Corinthians 11:9). God made his nature different than mine and I will accept it even if I don’t completely understand it. Whether I agree or disagree with all his actions my duty is to be the best wife to my husband that I can be according to I Peter 3:1-6. That means if I see my husband looking at other women whether it be as we go shopping in a store or him looking at images of women on his computer I am going to strive to channel my jealous energy into a positive force to bless my husband and I will do everything I can do to draw him closer to me and not push him away.”

Conclusion

There is good jealousy in wives and bad jealousy in wives.  Often times it comes down to how they channel their jealousy.   Will she channel her jealousy into being a better wife or will she allow it to cause bitterness in her heart? The choice is hers.

But this leaves us with the question of “What if my wife refuses to see that her actions based on her jealousy are not a positive force for change but a negative force that will tear the marriage apart?” And this is a very real possibility.

And the answer is a husband using Biblical discipline with his wife.  See my article “7 Ways to Discipline Your Wife” for non-physical methods of discipline that husbands can use.  Also see my articles “Does the Bible Allow a Husband to Spank his Wife?” and “The Biblical Case For Domestic Discipline” to learn what the Bible says about husband’s using physical discipline with their wives.

101 responses to “How to train your wife not to be jealous”

  1. Great article! I’ve always guarded very strongly against jealousy in the past because I’ve always regarded it as a negative thing that’s produces absolutely terrible behavior. But a big part of what shaped my interpretation jealousy was, I’ll admit, the way that I saw it played out in the media and in real life. (I was born the early 1990s, so you can probably imagine what was influencing my generation.) I saw ridiculous examples of both girls and boys seeing it as romantic to get angry about their significant others’ same-sex friends, and I saw a lot of girls getting crazy trying ward other girls off from their boyfriends. (More than half the time, those girls probably weren’t even interested, and it was much rarer that they were actually doing anything appropriate.) I also saw guys my age freaking out over other guys so much as looking at their girlfriends.

    But your article made me realize the real problem. It wasn’t the jealousy itself. It was the result. The jealousy either led to attempts to control a significant other’s thoughts and friendships, or it led to them trying to eliminate the competition. I never saw the type that led to self improvement.

    Maybe I overlooked it. I didn’t see until this article that when I saw someone else doing something well and I strived to emulate that behavior or style in my own fashion that I might be positively motivated by jealousy.

    The only caveat that I would add to your suggestions for self-improvement is that women do need to remember to play to their own strengths rather than to another woman’s strengths when it comes to choices about fashion and appearance. For example, a woman might see her husband admiring certain styles on another woman, but she may very well find that they don’t flatter her at all. Hair color is a tricky thing too. I have pretty dark coloring and olive skin, so most blonde and pretty much all red dyes would look awful on me.

    So, basically, self-improvement is good, and taking pointers from other women that your husband finds attractive is good too. Just don’t change to something that looks bad on you while trying to mimic someone else.

  2. Alex,

    Your Statement:

    “The only caveat that I would add to your suggestions for self-improvement is that women do need to remember to play to their own strengths rather than to another woman’s strengths when it comes to choices about fashion and appearance. For example, a woman might see her husband admiring certain styles on another woman, but she may very well find that they don’t flatter her at all. Hair color is a tricky thing too. I have pretty dark coloring and olive skin, so most blonde and pretty much all red dyes would look awful on me.

    So, basically, self-improvement is good, and taking pointers from other women that your husband finds attractive is good too. Just don’t change to something that looks bad on you while trying to mimic someone else.”

    I agree with your “caveat” 100% and that is why I said this in the article:

    “4. If you are walking through the mall and you see your husband glance at a couple of women in their early 20’s and you are mom of 4 in your mid 30’s how do you compete with that? The answer is you don’t. You will never be that young. But you have something those women do not have? You have experience, you have a history with your husband and that counts for something. I believe Christian wives should have sexy selfies standing by. Maybe your husband glances at a few young women and instead of getting mad you send him a selfie from your personal library with a sexy note about what he has to look forward to when he gets home.

    I totally agree a woman should play to her strengths not her weaknesses. If you are a mid 30s or 40s woman in most cases you are not going to be able to compete with the body of a woman in her early 20s. In many cases if you are that age and you try and dress like a early 20s woman you may come off looking ridiculous. But you do as you say and play to your strengths.
    If you are older you may not have the body of an early 20 year old, but as I said you have something she does not. You have experience and a history with your husband that those young girls do not and that is your strength.

    Also body types and skin types come into play as you alluded to. If you are a bigger built woman some clothing styles just will not flatter you. Or perhaps if you are flat chested some blouses simply will not flatter you. But I think most women have physical strengths to play to. For example you may much in the area of breasts, but you have nice legs or a nice tush. Play to those strengths.

  3. I think overall this was another great article and I’m really glad you’re getting to these posts! Obviously we disagree about ownership, polygamy, and porn, but I think you did a great job highlighting the strengths and weaknesses of jealousy. I love LOVE the points you make about women channeling their jealousy into positive actions and perhaps even motivation for lifestyle changes (weight loss, etc.). Calls to action rather than calls to fretting are always a good thing. 🙂

    I think a lot of this is going to depend on reasonable expectation as well. In the Bible, a man who was marrying a woman who had never been married before had a reasonable expectation that she would be a virgin. The test you mention wasn’t actually to see if he was being cheated on currently as it was a best attempt to see if she was a virgin or not. Unless she was his first wife, the woman had no such expectation for him so naturally it shouldn’t surprise her if he is more sexually experienced, etc. For me and my husband, we have reasonable expectations that we will be the only person the other marries or has sex with. So if I were to walk in on my husband sitting with a second wife or having sex with someone else, I think I would definitely have reason for jealousy and anger as our marriage vows were being broken. However, I do not have a reasonable expectation that I will be the only woman he finds attractive so at the point where someone else shows up on the radar, I don’t have room for anger of jealousy.

    I also think that someone else’s jealousy isn’t something we can control. My husband can tell me ‘stop being jealous’ just like he could say ‘like Hillary Clinton’ and it just wouldn’t work. I’d vote for Hillary if he told me to (which thankfully he doesn’t!), but it’s not going to change how I feel about her as a politician or a person. I think this might be more flushed out in your next post you hinted at, but it was something i was thinking about. It’s not like a light switch you can just turn on or off.

    I do think there’s room for grace here. And this would work with both spouses (cuz let’s be honest, both men and women have been jealous for stupid reasons for pretty much forever). Ik if my husband or I are starting to slip into that, a verbal (and dare I say physical!) re-committment of our love and affection for the other helps a lot. If I were struggling with inappropriate jealousy and my husband just said “you’re not supposed to be doing that because ‘Bible’”, it would probably only exacerbate the situation.

    Looking forward to your next posts! Btw, how is the book you’re working on going?

  4. @BGR,

    Yes, women who are in their 30s and 40s and have been married to their husbands for 10-20 years definitely have an advantage in experience. Aside from the emotional bond that they’ve hopefully formed with their husband through the decades, they’ve also got the advantage of knowing what he likes and (probably because they’ve been married so long) more sexual experience than a woman in her early 20s would likely have, even if the younger woman wasn’t a virgin. And whatever the case, the wife still has the advantage of over a decade of sexual
    experience with her husband.

  5. Great article. One point I will add on the subject of competition between a wife and younger women is this: Some wives foolishly do not use the very good thing God has blessed wives with to keep their husbands intoxicated with them – sex! The enemy uses this to full effect to destroy as their bitterness grows.

    A wife who respects her husband, obeys him, does him good all the days of his life, takes care of herself, and is sexually available to her husband when he needs her is unstoppable to a good husband. She is worth far more than rubies indeed. A 20 something might be younger, but she can’t even begin to compete with a Godly wife whose husband is pleased with her.

  6. Fascinating article. Do you have any thoughts on how a single Christian man might prepare or be able to recognize certain traits of a “less jealous” or more accepting Christian woman, given the church’s struggle to address these topics in the way you’re able to, and also the taboo of courting couples having frank discussions about this sort of thing? Are there any particular ways to make this more simple when entering into the relationship, or finding Christian women more naturally prone to it?

  7. Good points. I think some women think they have a right to know their husbands every thought and I have seen women become very agitated by the fact that often when they ask their men what they are thinking they simply reply with nothing. Instead of worrying about who or what he is thinking about we should be doing everything in our power to make ourselves the object of their thoughts and desires, we can start this by watching our weight,dressing attractively and making ourselves available to our husband as desired.
    If your husband had been at the office all day surrounded by pretty young women make sure when he returns in the evening that you are looking your best and at his service otherwise you will push him into sinful thought about other women.
    Before he leaves in the morning get up a little earlier and make yourself attractive so when he thinks of you through the day he is thinking of an attractive desirable woman not some bedraggled lump. Invest in attractive underwear and flirt with your man before he leaves the house so he knows what he has to look forward to when he comes home, if he so desires meet his needs before he leaves home so he is not to frustrated through the day and led into thoughts of other women.
    Do not ask where he is going or when he will be back unless he volunteers this information, do your children answer to you? Yes they do- your husband does not.
    Women need to start acting like ladies again and the sooner women realise and are taught their place from an early age the better, ladies keep your chastity until you are married and then we won’t have to worry about our husbands going else where. Moms teach your daughters the value of their virginity and hopefully the next generation will grow up in purity as Godly young women who will know the joy of being possessed by only one man.

  8. Jonadab-the-Rechabite Avatar
    Jonadab-the-Rechabite

    @anonymous

    A wife who respects her husband, obeys him, does him good all the days of his life, takes care of herself, and is sexually available to her husband when he needs her is unstoppable to a good husband. She is worth far more than rubies indeed.

    True that!

    Also a woman that tries to get her husband to obey her, is miserly with sex, cares little about her appearance, is lazy, contentious, or a drama queen will be a burden and not a help to her husband.

    @ BGR

    Outstanding work!

    How much do you think jealousy is an emotional excuse to justify a wife’s manipulation and attempt to control her husband? Is it not just another way in which she refuses to submit to her own husband in all things but attempts to rule him?

  9. Jonadab,

    Your Statement:

    “How much do you think jealousy is an emotional excuse to justify a wife’s manipulation and attempt to control her husband? Is it not just another way in which she refuses to submit to her own husband in all things but attempts to rule him?”

    I think jealousy is a common excuse that women use to control their husbands. But honestly in many cases I think they allow their emotions and their culture to convince them they have a right to this jealousy. I think even good submissive wives have moments of jealousy toward their husbands, but what they need to realize is that in those moments they have forgotten their place.

    My 14 year old daughter is wise beyond her years and it is only because she wants to serve God with her life. What she sees in the Bible is God’s will and plan for her life. A conversation came up with a bunch of family members over. The women were all talking about “what you do if your husband ever cheated on you?” and my daughter displayed more wisdom than women twice her age with her answer.

    She said “If my husband sleeps with another woman outside of marriage – he has not cheated on me, he has cheated on God. Just like David sinned against God with Bathsheba my husband would be sinning against God. It would not be about me or my feelings, I will belong to my husband he does not belong to me. I would pray that God would convince him of his sin but it would not be my place to confront him.”

    Every women in the room stood stunned. They told her “You say that now young lady, but if that actually happens to you some day you won’t believe anything you just said. Your hurt and your jealousy will make you enraged and you won’t know what you will do.”

  10. Rob Stuart,

    Your Statement:

    “Do you have any thoughts on how a single Christian man might prepare or be able to recognize certain traits of a “less jealous” or more accepting Christian woman, given the church’s struggle to address these topics in the way you’re able to, and also the taboo of courting couples having frank discussions about this sort of thing? Are there any particular ways to make this more simple when entering into the relationship, or finding Christian women more naturally prone to it?”

    Rob – I think there are ways to recognize jealousy in a woman. There are some simple ways to do this. When you are watching a movie with her ask her if she thinks a certain actor is attractive? If he feels uncomfortable revealing to you that she finds a man attractive that could be a sign. If she opens up and says anything whether he is or is not use that to tell her that you think a particular actress is attractive. If she begins to squirm or have any issues you may have a problem.

    I have said it many times on this blog that I don’t think men should gawk, but simply take tasteful glances of beautiful women. When you are dating this woman make sure you purposefully let her see you glance at some beautiful women and see how she responds. Does she get angry? Does she give you an ugly look? Does she correct you as if she caught you doing something wrong?

    I think couples should have frank discussions about these things and I will be covering this in the next couple of articles I do. Basically the topic(or sub topic) will be “How to talk your woman about sex” for lack of a better term. There are some things you should share and perhaps some things you should not. I want to help men learn from my own mistakes as well as the mistakes I have heard from other Christian men when they try and talk to their women about sex(that means girlfriend, fiance, or wife).

  11. AnnaMS,

    Obviously based our past conversations you and I are going to disagree about women having the right to be jealous toward their husbands.

    But you are right that we while we may disagree on the right to jealousy, I think we agree for the most part on what women should do with their jealousy.

    I also agree with you that we cannot control other people’s feelings. A husband cannot control his wife’s feelings and wife cannot control her husbands. But we are accountable to God for our feelings and actions. Even outside of marriage, if am jealous of something I have no right to be jealous over I need to take that to the Lord and ask to remove that from me. But sometimes I might have an envious jealousy that drives me to be better in some way and there is nothing wrong with that.

    On the book – it is going to be very slow process especially with me having this new job that I am still settling into it. My short term goal is to just try and get an article out each week and when I can do that regularly then get back to the long term goal of the book.

  12. Lori,

    Your Statement:

    “Do not ask where he is going or when he will be back unless he volunteers this information, do your children answer to you? Yes they do- your husband does not.”

    You just hit the nail on the head. Even many Christian women who claim to believe in Biblical submission and say they try and practice believe their husbands are in fact accountable to them. While I have said many times that the relationship between parents and children and husbands and wives are different and unique – this does not mean they don’t share some basic things in common – especially with the superior/subordinate relationship.

    My wife had a weak moment recently where she was angry at me for not disciplining my son for not listening to me about something and she was saying all this in front of him and I said “This is not the place for this discussion in front of him” and she kept going. I told her “Do you realize you are doing exactly the same thing you want me to discipline him for? You are disrespecting me and not listening to me and you want me to discipline him for disrespecting me and not listening to me? Do you not see the example you are setting for him?”

    Too often Christian women give lip service that they believe in submission, but in their actions and attitudes they behave just the opposite. Women must realize their place. Yes they are above their children in order, but they share something in common with their children – they are both under the authority of the husband/father.

  13. @BGR,

    Isn’t one of the most effective ways for women to avoid jealousy to just not police his glances and such? Also, isn’t paying a lot of attention to where he’s looking an unsubmissive and controlling behavior? Sure, if he’s really gawking, it might be impossible not to notice, and a wife might occasionally see her husband glance at another woman by accident. In these cases, she shouldn’t shame him, and she should recognize that it’s perfectly natural for him to find other women attractive. On the other hand, if a woman is constantly watching where her husband’s eyes go, that seems counter-productive, even if she’s trying to avoid being jealous or trying to figure out which other women he finds attractive. At a certain point, it seems as though she’s just obsessing about his feelings towards other women rather than his feelings towards her. Sure, men who are dissatisfied with their wives might be more prone to these types of glances, but even a wife who takes great care of herself, puts effort into her appearance, is giving sexually, and treats her husband with proper respect and reverence isn’t going to make him blind to other beautiful women, nor should she worry about doing so. It’s easy enough for a woman to observe what her husband finds attractive on her based on what stuff seems to turn him on most and which stuff gets the most compliments from him, figure out what else he finds attractive in women if he comments on which actresses he finds attractive, and to ask him if there’s anything new that he’d like her to try with her appearance. (I recognize that most men aren’t going to want to or care about giving their wives detailed instructions about what to wear every day and how to take care of their appearance, so asking really just amounts to trying to get some general ideas about new things to try.) Policing his glances and regularly quizzing him about whether or not he finds another woman pretty seems more likely to create problems than help anything. There’s some helpful information to be gleaned from what information he offers, but it’s also useful to remember that men tend to like variety. Some might have a really specific, set type, but if a woman finds out that her husband finds another woman who’s her physical opposite really attractive, it’s more likely that he just appreciates variety in beauty and that he wants his wife either as she is or as she’s playing to her strengths rather than to the other woman’s strengths. After all, most men don’t marry women whom they don’t find attractive.

    Granted, my advice is somewhat tailored to my own situation because my husband’s ex-girlfriend constantly asked him that stuff as a trap. Because of this, he’s told me, it still sometimes makes him instinctually nervous if I ever mention that an actress in a film is really pretty or comment on how nicely I think that a woman is dressed. (I really enjoy fashion and styling, so that’s why it comes up.) He’s gotten better with it over time, and I’ve mainly kept my comments to occasionally reminding him that it doesn’t bother me if he finds other women attractive because I trust him and know that his feelings about other women don’t affect how he feels about me. On the plus side, he’s gotten more comfortable mentioning stuff to me occasionally, and I’ve been able to ask him if he’d be interested in me adapting different styles or if he’s happy with my look. For example, he occasionally likes edgier fashions (think more gothic or alternative stuff with some femininity remaining) on certain women, but he likes my more classic/feminine look on me more. (And to clarify, I’ll still wear short skirts, shorts, and dresses, fitted stuff, or low-cut stuff on a regular basis, so I’m not making the mistake of covering up everything that he likes to look at.) Edgier stuff looks more like a costume on me, so it comes in as a thing for special occasions. But I’m still careful not to police him or quiz him because: a) I think that it’s controlling and b) I know how it affects him and have found that letting him set the pace is best.

  14. Alex,

    Your Statement:

    “Isn’t one of the most effective ways for women to avoid jealousy to just not police his glances and such? Also, isn’t paying a lot of attention to where he’s looking an unsubmissive and controlling behavior?”

    A police officer is one who is an authority over us to enforce the laws of our city, state and country. A woman has no such authority over her husband. When a woman polices her husband’s glances she is literally putting herself in a place of authority over her husband in direct contradiction to God’s design. In fact while I think it is wrong for men to gawk – even if a man does this or other things that are wrong she is not his authority and she has no place to rebuke him. That is the place of another man but certainly not his wife. I Peter 3:1 tells us when a woman’s husband is being disobedient to the Word she she is to win him “without a word” but her respectful behavior.

  15. Alex,

    Your Statement:

    “Some might have a really specific, set type, but if a woman finds out that her husband finds another woman who’s her physical opposite really attractive, it’s more likely that he just appreciates variety in beauty and that he wants his wife either as she is or as she’s playing to her strengths rather than to the other woman’s strengths. After all, most men don’t marry women whom they don’t find attractive.”

    I think most men have a certain preference and that is often the type of woman they marry. But you are absolutely correct that we as men are indeed creatures of variety. So while I may prefer a woman with full breasts and hips, that does not mean I don’t also find some smaller and petite women attractive as well. The reality is if I were a wealthy man living in Biblical times I might be married to women of several different body types as well as personality types. So when a woman recognizes this about her husband’s nature and accepts it she will live at peace with him.

    But as you have said she should play to her strengths and not try and compete with other women on levels she cannot. For instance if a woman does not have large breasts does that mean she has to go and get breast surgery if her husband glances at such women? Of course not. Or if a woman is a larger built full figure woman and he glances at a petite woman is she supposed to go and get her bones shrunk? Of course not. Instead she continues to play to her own strengths and does her best to please her husband with what God has given her.

  16. @BGR,

    I think that police was a poor word choice for what I was talking about. I meant that I didn’t think that a woman’s should be constantly following her husband’s gaze to see if he ended up glancing at another woman. Basically, even if she is going to keep silent, I don’t think that she should try to catch him in the act.

  17. Alex,

    I see what you are saying and even if you misspoke I do think women often do police their husbands. They want their husbands eyes on them and them alone and if his eyes veer elsewhere they are all over him(and not in a good way).

    Another thing you alluded to is a truth women often don’t get. A man can be completely satisfied in his wife both in her beauty and what she does for him in the bedroom but still look at other women. Just because he looks at another woman or enjoys the beauty of another woman does not mean he does not enjoy the beauty of the one he is with.

    I think when women get upset at their husbands looking at other women it usually comes from one of two places:

    1. Pride – “I should be the most beautiful woman in the world to him and he should be so memorized by my beauty that he has no need to look elsewhere for beauty.”

    2. Fear/Insecurity – “If he is looking at her then he must not think I am beautiful anymore. Maybe he will leave me.”

    But women who want to follow God’s ways must rid themselves both of pride and insecurity when it comes to their husbands.

    “Only by pride cometh contention: but with the well advised is wisdom.”
    Proverbs 13:10 (KJV)

    “There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.”
    I John 4:18 (KJV)

  18. BGR, I’m a bit confused reading what you wrote about your daughter. I went back and re-read what you wrote about Josh Duggar when that story broke, and you had made the distinction between David and Bathsheba and Josh and Anna with the difference in their vows. That was the same distinction I was trying to make when I was talking about reasonable expectations and gave the hypothetical example of my husband cheating (which will obviously never happen and was not meant to convey disrespect towards him at all). Your daughter doesn’t seem to see a difference there, but at some point at least you did. Am I missing something here. I’ll be honest that I’ve only gotten 2 hours of sleep in the last 55+ hours and I’m not trying to strawman you. I honestly had thought we would have agreed on that part, so it surprised me reading through it.

  19. AnnaMS,

    Your Statement:

    “I went back and re-read what you wrote about Josh Duggar when that story broke, and you had made the distinction between David and Bathsheba and Josh and Anna with the difference in their vows. That was the same distinction I was trying to make when I was talking about reasonable expectations and gave the hypothetical example of my husband cheating (which will obviously never happen and was not meant to convey disrespect towards him at all). Your daughter doesn’t seem to see a difference there, but at some point at least you did. Am I missing something here.”

    Anna – I totally understand your confusion. My daughter sees little difference between what David did with Basheba and a man having sex with a woman outside of marriage when he is married. The reason is because she understands that the whole idea of a man pledging to be with one woman and only one woman occurred in post Biblical times and she has a great deal of respect for marriage as it was in Biblical times.

    She sees in the Scriptures that when a married woman slept with a man other than her husband in the Scriptures this was seen as a greater offense than a married man having sex with another woman who was not his wife. Look at the punishments for women who did slept with a man other than their husband? They died. A man only died if he slept with another man’s wife because he violated that man’s property. If he simply slept with a single woman or prostitute there is no punishment mentioned in the Scriptures.

    Now this is not to say that my daughter or I believe it is was right or is right for a man to sleep with a single woman he is not married to or a prostitute. It was and still is a sin. But who was the sin against? It was against God.

    So we have to ask ourselves why in the Bible was a married or betrothed woman having sex with a man other than her husband viewed in so much more serious terms than a married man sleeping with a single woman or prostitute? The reason is because of the concept we see from Genesis to Revelation – woman was made for man, not man for woman. That is a central theme of my daughter’s thoughts on marriage. That is why in her view – no matter what our modern marriage vows say – she belongs to her husband, he does not belong to her. Its not about her, its about him(both her husband and God).

    To sum it up another way. She feels as well as I that post Biblical monogamous marriage vows that are forced upon men give women the false view that they possess their husband in the same way he possesses them. But in her view as well as mine, the monogamous marriage vow does not change that paradigm.

    Hopefully that makes sense.

  20. BGR, I think that every sin is a sin against God as it was part of what sent Him to the cross. Some sins are also sins against other people, but I think seeing it as sins against God vs sins against spouse is a bit of a false dichotomy.

    I think I understand what you’re saying, but I’m confused as to how that looks like. I agree that the wife rather than the husband was called to be the helpmeet and that is the same for a polygamous as well as a monogamous marriage. But how does that change the fact that if a man makes a vow of monogamy to a woman and then breaks it, he has in fact sinned against her?

  21. Jonadab-the-Rechabite Avatar
    Jonadab-the-Rechabite

    @ AnnMS

    I think seeing it as sins against God vs sins against spouse is a bit of a false dichotomy.

    While all sin is a violation of God’s law, some sins are more odious than others due to the effect they have on others, whether it be a destruction of a society or a church or a family. God calls sins such as male homosexuality an abomination that defiles the land, sins like gossip a great evil because it destroys the church and lack of submission from a wife a blasphemy against the word of God because it pictures an apostate church, a broken covenant and destroys the most basic unit of social organization the family.

    God is very zealous for His institutions, he desires that subordinates live in joyful contented submission and that superiors lead for the benefit of those being led and for the accomplishment of their assigned mission. The question that wives should be asking instead of how can I control my husband? or how can I trust my husband? or what if he likes another? the question they should be asking is how can I help him and serve him, how can I be the one that gives him the most reason to embrace and hold me? How can I make him want to have and to hold me even when he finds others more physically attractive?

    At the end of the day a wife has an advantage over all other women on planet earth, she has her husband’s presence and covenant. He may be stirred in his loins by the hottie in the office, but the wise wife will be the one that channels that passion and amplifies what another started to satisfy him completely. No other woman can compete with all the senses a wife can stir. How is a man intoxicated with the wife of his youth, when she let’s go of her fears and selfishness and gives herself to him with no reservations and imaginative passion.

    IMO – There are only two postures: hold back and let lose. To hold back is to defraud by producing a substandard or poor quality service, to let lose is to give your all. When a woman gives herself to her husband she should give her all, that is how to image the church and Christ. Christ wants are every thought word and action there is no place where He does not declare you are mine and no part that does not belong to him. A husband is not entitled to every thought, but he is entitled to mind-blowing sex, respect and a wife’s efforts to become a cheerfully contented helper to him.

    As I see the problem, women don not want what Christ wants, they want what they want and that is to be as god and when that fails to be as a man.

  22. I agree with pretty much everything you said, Jonadab. I tend to see the world as more responsibilities rather than rights. So I’d say that wives have a responsibility to become a cheerful contented helper and provide high-quality sex rather than a husband’s being entitled to it, but it should happen regardless. The right the husband has is found in his wife’s responsibility and outside of that, it doesn’t exist.

  23. Jonadab-the-Rechabite Avatar
    Jonadab-the-Rechabite

    Anna would you deny that God has right? Is He entitled to our submission and honor?

    Superiors do have rights and well as responsibilities, that is how authority works.

  24. Jonadab, God has the same relationship with humanity as an author has with the characters in a book. God defines our reality by being our creator. That is how the relationship between God and mankind is different than the relationship between a husband and a wife. It is an excellent illustration but it is in fact just an illustration. God is to a husband as a painting of a chair is to a chair. It would be beyond stupid for someone to try to sit in that painting because there’s a chair in it. So God’s rights to our submission do stem from our responsibility to submit to Him; but the difference between God and a husband is that a husband’s responsibility to obey God stems from God’s authority whereas a wife’s responsibility to obey her husband does not stem from a husband’s authority, but rather God’s authority. A husband has authority only in the extent that God has given it to him.

    I am not saying that people do not have any rights. But rights are secondary, whereas responsibility is primary. Rights stem from a responsibility. For example, my husband has a right to have sex with me because I have a responsibility to provide it. If there is sexual denial, the problem is not that a right is being violated, but that a responsibility is not being fulfilled. That is in fact how Scripture words it when it commands spouses not to deprive each other.

    So a woman’s right to not be raped stems from people’s responsibility not to rape. Someone trying to claim a right without a corresponding responsibility is ultimately meaningless. I can stand and scream that I have a right to eat at Olive Garden but because nobody has a responsibility to take me there, it doesn’t do any good.

    If you think about it for a minute, it should make sense. Think of the basic right that people often claim: the right to life. When people die of old age, cancer, miscarriage, etc. nobody is arguing that a right is being violated. Nobody tries to bring cancer to court because we all automatically recognize that cancer lacks agency and therefore is not morally responsible and cannot violate a right. When someone is murdered however, we definitely see it as a right to life being violated because the responsibility to not murder was not upheld.

  25. Jonadab-the-Rechabite Avatar
    Jonadab-the-Rechabite

    @ Anna

    If there is sexual denial, the problem is not that a right is being violated, but that a responsibility is not being fulfilled.

    Defraud ye not one the other, except it be with consent for a time, that ye may give yourselves to fasting and prayer; and come together again, that Satan tempt you not for your incontinency. 1 Corinthians 7:5

    The Apostle Paul says sexual denial is a crime. The Greek term he uses is “apostereo” meaning:to defraud, deprive of
    Origin: from 575 and stereo (to rob)
    Usage: defraud(2), defrauded(1), deprived of(1), depriving(1).

    It is like you buy a car and the dealer never gives it to you. Do you have a right to the car? Yes by the order of authority as the rightful owner. Husbands and wives have the same right to sex.

    1 Corinthians 7:4 The wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. And likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does.

    While each spouse has a duty, they also have a right to claim the others sex. More to the point, because the Bible uses ownership language describing the relationship of a husband to a wife he has the rights associated with ownership, because the christian wife is a joint heir of the grace of life she deserves to be treated with the dignity of a child of God. She has a duty to honor and yet all the rights of a child of God, her husband has a duty to know her frailties and vulnerabilities that he can protect her as weaker and more easily deceived.

    Push – Pull

  26. @AnnaMS,

    I see your point about responsibility vs. rights, but I think that Jonadab is right in that people have a right to protest if someone is not fulfilling their responsibility to ensure that these rights are respected. Husbands as authorities can demand that their rights be respected and can take certain actions if those rights are not. Wives, although in submission, also have rights guaranteed by God, so they too can demand that those rights (i.e. sex, food, and clothing) if they are being deprived of them. While they cannot take further action if those rights are still not given to them, they can be set free from authority under certain circumstances. Basically, if one person doesn’t carry out there responsibilities, the person to whom they owe those duties can take action to secure their rights.

  27. Jonadab, if we have bought a car, the car dealer has a responsibility to give us that car, so yes we do have a right to it. As I said earlier, I am not saying that rights do not exist but that they are not primary. All you did is list an example of something people are responsible to give us and then said we have a right to it. You’re making my point for me. I prefer the right to life example, but car dealership works.

  28. @Anna,

    Are you trying to say that women need to remember that their duties are their responsibilities, not just their husbands’ rights, because they need to remember that they are active participants in their marriage? That things like sex and submission aren’t just things that their husbands take from them but are also and should primarily be things that they actively give to their husbands? I do understand the importance of this mindset, especially when it comes to sex, because it helps improve the quality of the sex given and had.

    Note: When I say “take” with regard to sex, I’m not talking about husbands forcing themselves on their wives. I mean more that wives shouldn’t see themselves are just being passive and acted upon during sex. They should try to be more enthusiastic and engaged than that, and they should be acting upon their husbands as well to increase their pleasure. Also, as I’ve said many times before, sex is for their enjoyment too.

  29. Alex, are we supposed to be trying to ensure our rights are respected or are we supposed to try to ensure others fulfill their responsibilities? I’d argue the latter which flies in the face of our modern thinking where everything has to be all about us. Even people who advocate for all sorts of crazy wife-discipline ideas will say they’re doing it to make their wife better. It’s not about getting what we think we are owed. Is Jesus more interested in a spouse being able to orgasm or is He more interested in the sanctification of a spouse who realizes his/her sexual responsibilities to the other spouse and starts acting accordingly?

  30. Alex, just saw your follow-up comment. While I’m all about being an active participant in a marriage, I’m more arguing that rights stem from responsibilites and are not an island unto themselves.

  31. @Anna.

    I agree that intentions are important and that husbands should be trying to change their wives hearts, not just their actions. But as you’ve said, ultimately, women’s hearts are their own responsibilities. So, yes, it is certainly better that a wife recognize her responsibility than that a husband enforce his rights. (And of course there are limits on how rights can be enforced. To use the car analogy, you could contact the proper legal authorities to force the dealership to give you the car that you paid for. You can’t legally mug the dealer for the keys.)

  32. But to add, I think that rights can still be enforced for the sake of the person who has them, even though it won’t be sanctifying to the spouse. For example, a woman whose husband doesn’t give her money for food and takes any income that she earns before she can spend it would certainly have the right to use every resource available to her in order to be able to feed herself or to under the protection of another person who will give her money for food. Obviously, this is way more extreme than a woman only giving starfish sex, but this is why people definitely have the right to demand their rights.

  33. Alex, the wife there has the right to seek provision because her husband has the responsibility to provide for her. If he is unable or does not fulfill his responsibility, I’d argue that the church has God-given responsibilities there.

    It sounds miniscule here, but order is very important. Especially in this day and age where people are claiming ridiculous rights. Just because someone can have something doesn’t mean they have a right to it. People have argued (sometimes on this site, but more often in other places) that men have a right to polygamy. But, that is false because there is no corresponding responsibility for multiple women to marry them.

    People need to stop doing the ‘name it claim it’ approach to rights.

  34. And…to make a final point on sexual denial vs. sexual performance…

    I don’t think that it’s right to equate complete denial of sex with mediocre sex. Yes, there are women who don put much effort into sex and act passive and unenthusiastic. Yes, there are men who don’t bother trying to make sex enjoyable for their wives because they think that foreplay is too complicated and that it’s impossible for women to orgasm and because they’re not willing to let their wives show them what to do. (And yes, wives should avoid being critical or mean about their husbandms performance, but sometimes, it’s necessary for husbands to let their wives show them or tell them exactly what to do before they can fully figure it out. Sex is a skill, and like any skill, it takes practice and clear instruction to get the hang of it.) Not trying is somewhat sinful, but it’s not as bad as outright denial.

    But there are also men and women who just aren’t very coordinated or skilled and will never be amazing at sex. There are also men and women who are really hard to satisfy. Is subpar sexual performance in those scenarios sinful? I think not.

    As an aside, if you find that your wife is unenthusiastic about sex, it is worth checking to see if there’s anything that you can do to make it more pleasurable for her.

  35. Agreed on that, Alex. 😀

  36. @Anna,

    Just saw your last post. I think that I get your point now, and I think that I’d agree. You’re basically saying that someone can’t have a right to something unless another person has a responsibility to provide it and that anyone claiming a right should make sure that someone else has a responsibility to provide it first?

    As for the polygyny example, I think that BGR’s said before that he doesn’t see it as a right that men have. He’s said that men shouldn’t be forbidden from taking multiple wives–but he’s also said that men have to earn their wives by getting themselves to the point that they can provide and demonstrate their fitness and by getting the consent of their prospective wives and/or their parents. Basically, he doesn’t think that any man has a right to even one wife, let alone many. His position is more that men shouldn’t be forbidden from earning the consent to marriage from multiple women.

  37. That’s basically what I’m saying, Alex. I’d add that the priority should be on responsibility rather than rights. Not just because of the logical progression (which I’ve tried to explain previously), but also for the moral character development. Focusing on rights makes it all about us and what we can have. Focusing on responsibility makes us focus on others and helps make us better people.

  38. So, basically, you’re not saying that husband can’t confront his wife if she isn’t doing her duties to him. (I didn’t really think that you were at any point, btw.) You’re saying that he should focus the conversation less on his rights as a husband and more on her responsibilities as a wife because these responsibilities are to God, not just to him.

  39. Alex, I think you make a really good point about the distinction between sexual denial and sexual performance. Jonadab mentioned earlier that the husband has a right to mind-blowing sex, and that is not true. He has a right to sex, yes, but a bunch of things have to go right before the sex can be ‘mind-blowing’. Differences in sexual skill and some people being hard to satisfy, like you mentioned, are some reasons that no one can claim a right to this. It would be very wrong for a man to say, discipline his wife when she gives him willing sex but he doesn’t perceive the sex as particularly great.

    This is similar to my thoughts on refusing to perform oral sex. I asked BGR about this on a previous post and while he agreed that its not full sexual denial, he essentially classified it as a husband’s need, and as such warrants some form of discipline or withholding of certain benefits. I don’t agree with this, but I didn’t see a point in arguing any further. I actually think that couples that don’t incorporate oral sex in their sexual play are truly missing out on a great form of sexual enjoyment, both for wives and husbands. But I don’t think a husband while trying to convince his wife should view this as a breach of sexual responsibilities if his wife is giving willing, enthusiastic sex. Some people are not as sexually adventurous as others, some don’t want to engage in playful bondage with silk scarves (not BDSM), some are not comfortable with using use sex toys, some are shy with engaging in ‘dirty talk’. It would wrong and possibly cruel to discipline such wives.

    Anna, I was also taken aback by BGR’s daughter’s response to her future husband’s cheating. Polygamy may be allowed but there’s also no sin in monogamy and making a vow to your wife that she’s the only one that you’ll have sex with. If it was a vow that isn’t in the accordance of God’s will, such as a non-patriarchal marriage, then that may be disregarded if later on in the marriage, the husband comes to realise the proper biblical roles. But adhering to and promising your wife monogamy, is not a sin. Hence, breaking that promise is both a sin to God for having sex outside of marriage and a sin to your wife for breaking a vow. Number 30:2, James 5:12.

    Overall, this is a good article and I think its just generally a good idea that if your spouse prefers certain things and its not sinful, then we should try within our capacity to accommodate those preferences. It’s even simply ‘Being A Good Spouse 101’. I think that husbands should be more vocal about expressing these preferences instead of expecting wives to pick up on these by following their glances. And if your wife doesn’t want to accommodate these, then that’s on her. Also, maybe its because of the region that I live in, but I’ve seen and heard of a lot more husbands being jealous of their wives looking at other men than vice versa.

  40. Alex, I do mean that the husband should focus more on the wife’s responsibility rather than his right, but not simply because the wife has responsibilities towards God (although that should definitely be included), but rather because rights follow responsibilities so to focus on them in backwards order isn’t logical. For example, my husband has a right to have sex with me, but only because of my responsibility to have sex with him. Back when we were first married and I was unable to have sex, nobody sane would argue that my husband’s rights were being violated. I was no more capable of having intercourse with him than an infertile couple is of conceiving (hence Jacob’s reaction when Rachel demanded children of him…she missed the responsibility part and jumped straight to what she saw as her right). I absolutely was responsible to do other sexual things and to do all I reasonably could to fix the problem, but I could not be held responsible for my having vaginismus.

    Basically, having a right does not lead to the result…only recognizing and upholding a responsibility can do so. It’s a little like a women who’s about to be raped demanding that she has a right not to be raped. It’s true, but without someone fulfilling their responsibilities (either the would-be rapist or a bystander offering assistance), her right is meaningless. This blog highlights many people of both genders who have a right to have sex with their spouse, but are not having any sex based on their spouse not upholding his/her responsibilities.

    I would argue that not only should a husband confront his wife’s lack of responsibility in this area, but that he is in fact responsible to do so. While wives like to claim many rights from their husbands that they don’t actually have, a wife of a Godly husband does have a right to his spiritual guidance and leadership and part of that is correcting unrepentant sin in her life.

  41. Taylor, I agree with you. With David and Bathsheba, no vow was being broken. With Josh and Anna Duggar (and any other couple who took a vow of monogamy), a vow is being broken. BGR and his daughter may see that as ‘little difference’, but I don’t think that’s a Biblical interpretation of vows. I do believe her heart is in the right place and she will likely never have to deal with this on a practical level, but ultimately there is a huge difference between a vow being broken or not.

  42. @Taylor,

    I completely agree. To be fair, this blog has specified before that husbands shouldn’t discipline their wives for issues of sexual performance; rather, they can try to convince them using scripture that certain sex acts are not unbiblical (e.g. pointing to the Song of Songs to show where oral sex for men and women is approved), and they can use positive reinforcement to encourage their wives to be sexier or more adventurous.

  43. Anna,

    Your Statement:

    “I think I understand what you’re saying, but I’m confused as to how that looks like. I agree that the wife rather than the husband was called to be the helpmeet and that is the same for a polygamous as well as a monogamous marriage. But how does that change the fact that if a man makes a vow of monogamy to a woman and then breaks it, he has in fact sinned against her?”

    This whole conversation is reminding me of some previous conversations we had perhaps a year ago or more about rights and responsibilities and vows. I want to finish the post I am working now but after that I want to swing back around to what I think are two discussions here and one builds the foundation for the other. The first is “Rights, Responsibilities and Vows from a Biblical perspective” and the second would build on this jealousy post and the rights, responsibilities and vow post in addressing how Christian wives should respond to their husbands breaking their wedding vows and having sex with other women outside of marriage.

    I will though give you a preview as to my thought process on this based on my understanding the Scriptures.

    “4 Have we not power to eat and to drink? 5 Have we not power to lead about a sister, a wife, as well as other apostles, and as the brethren of the Lord, and Cephas? 6 Or I only and Barnabas, have not we power to forbear working?
    7 Who goeth a warfare any time at his own charges? who planteth a vineyard, and eateth not of the fruit thereof? or who feedeth a flock, and eateth not of the milk of the flock?”

    I Corinthians 9:4-7(KJV)

    The apostle Paul makes it clear that Christians do in fact have rights. The word “power” here in this context means “right” and that is why in most modern translations it is translated as right. But in my view there are three different kinds of rights.

    There is “a right to pursue” , “a right to receive” and “a right to take action”. You and I would agree that our natural rights come from God. I also don’t have a problem with governments granting additional rights if and ONLY if those rights do not take away from other God given rights and those rights do grant people the ability to do something that goes against God’s design or his commands.

    A right to pursue
    A man has the God given right to pursue marriage to one woman or multiple women under normal circumstances. And the government has no more right to restrict men to one wife then it does to restrict parents to one child. Both of these are violations of the rights of marriage and family which are two institutions designed by God. Marriage and having children falls under the authority of the family, not the government.

    Some circumstances that may cancel this right is if he is justly incarcerated or justly enslaved. If he is justly enslaved then only his master can allow him to marry or not. But a free man has the God given right to pursue marriage. But the right to pursue marriage, the right to marriage are two different things. A man does not have the right to have a wife provided to him by anyone – he has the right to pursue a wife. Now if a man was betrothed to a woman that was different – he had the right to eventually consummate that marriage.

    In the same way we have a right to pursue a job, but we do not have the right to have a job given to us. We have the right to pursue private property, but we do not have the right to just have private property given to us.

    “a right to receive”
    The right to receive would like the fact a King having the right to proper honor and respect for his position. A husband/father has the right to receive the obedience, respect and honor of his wife and children. A wife has the right to receive food, provision, protection and sexual access to her husband’s body. A husband as the right to sexual access to his wife’s body.

    “a right to take action”
    Sometime we have the right to take action. For instance a man has a God given right to defend himself and his family from harm. A parent has the right to take disciplinary actions toward her child and a husband has the right to take disciplinary actions toward his wife. A wife has the right to divorce her husband for him failing to provide for her with food, clothing and sexual access to his body.

    Sometimes we can voluntarily choose not to exercise our rights as Paul said:

    “12 If others be partakers of this power over you, are not we rather? Nevertheless we have not used this power; but suffer all things, lest we should hinder the gospel of Christ.”
    I Corinthians 9:12 (KJV)

    But the key here is that when we forgo our God given rights, whether they be “a right to pursue”, “a right to receive” and “a right to take action” it must be voluntary on our part. Sometimes God will lead us to forgo certain rights as Paul did for a greater good. But just because someone wants us to forgoe a certain right we have does not mean we must automatically comply.

    For instance some women have very lazy husbands who are fully capable of working and supporting them but are lazy and make excuses why they cannot. So these women give up their right to take action to divorce their husbands. That is there is choice to forgo that right. But make no mistake the choice is theirs to make and it cannot be denied by anyone as it is a God given right. In the same way a man has the right to divorce his wife for adultery, but he can forgo that right and choose to stay with her. Again his choice not to take action is his choice and his right cannot be denied.

    On the issue of vows I do believe the Bible shows that vows can sometimes come into direct confrontation with God’s design and to carry out certain vows would be sinful.

    So this is a preview of where I will be going on this subject – but it definitely will be a larger discussion.

  44. Jonadab-the-Rechabite Avatar
    Jonadab-the-Rechabite

    @ Taylor

    Jonadab mentioned earlier that the husband has a right to mind-blowing sex, and that is not true. He has a right to sex, yes, but a bunch of things have to go right before the sex can be ‘mind-blowing’. Differences in sexual skill and some people being hard to satisfy, like you mentioned, are some reasons that no one can claim a right to this. It would be very wrong for a man to say, discipline his wife when she gives him willing sex but he doesn’t perceive the sex as particularly great.

    Forgive me my clumsy prose, my words were imprecise. When I stated that a spouse is entitled to mind blowing sex what I meant, but was not clear in context, was that they are entitled for their spouse to put forth an effort to create mind blowing sex rather than just get it over with variety. This is the posture of what can I do to and let loose to please verse what is the least I can do and hold back but able to claim a fulfilled duty.

  45. BGR, I agree that people have rights. I have never argued against that. I have also never argued that people need to give up their rights if asked. I have simply argued that rights stem from responsibility and are not primary.

    So, I agree with your ‘right to pursue ‘ argument because the corresponding responsibility lies in us. The founding fathers wisely recognized the difference and said the pursuit of happiness rather than just happiness as I see so many people missing today.

    I also agree with your right to receive argument because again there is responsibility. A king has a right to obedience because his subjects have the responsibility to obey. Obviously outside of sin.

    I also agree with your right to take action because the responsibility also lies with the person. A man is responsible to defend his family to the best of his ability, so yes, he also has that right.

  46. Alex, I think positive reinforcement and attempts at convincing through biblical scriptures would actually be an acceptable way of handling that. But, I would refer you to the comments section in the article on ’10 Hard Truths Christian Wives Must Accept About Their Husbands and Porn’, where I brought up the topic of oral sex. Apparently, even if a wife gives enthusiastic sex, refusal of oral sex should be regarded as not fully submitting and so would warrant discipline, such as removal of ‘foot rubs’ and other things the wife wants, because such wives are being rebellious by their non-desire to do these things. So, when you say that this blog has specified that husbands shouldn’t discipline their wives for issues of sexual performance or oral sex, I’m genuinely confused.

  47. I’m going to try to explain my position more thoroughly here because I seem to be confusing most people here. I’m going to use sex as an example because it’s a hot topic around here (no pun intended) that a bunch of people can relate to. Please take a moment to see what I’m saying and don’t immediately get defensive because I’m talking about sex. I am very much pro-sex in marriage!

    Does the Bible give people a right to sex in marriage? NO. Now remember what I just said above and hang with me here! The Bible very much does give people the responsibility to have sex with their spouse and from that responsibility, we accurately derive a spouse’s right to sex. So when I say that my husband has a right to sex, that is an accurate statement. If I were to say that God gave my husband a right to sex, that would not be an accurate statement. Now people might be asking if God created the right since He created the responsibility and the answer to that would be no, not anymore than God creates other results because He created the cause. An example of this would be Satan. God created Satan (the cause of sin), but He did not create the effect (sin).

    Now does this mean that since God did not explicitly give people a right to sex that sexual denial is okay? Of course not! The Bible is very clear on the responsibility spouses have to each other. God repeatedly uses responsibility where we read rights into the Bible and I think that is a mistake because it causes us to lose focus (and in the case of some of the more crazy people out there…it causes them to claim all kinds of ‘rights’ like the UN recently making internet access a right). When God talks about sex it’s in the context of our responsibility to our spouses (do not defraud…..). When God talks about what a wife is owed in marriage, it’s in the context of a husband’s responsibility (where it says in Exodus 21 that he may not neglect to care for his first wife if he takes an additional wife). I could go on but I think I’ve made my point. I hope I have.

    So God does not give people a right to sex but He does very much command people to fulfill their marital responsibilities (sexual and otherwise). So He would absolutely call sexual denial a sin.

  48. AnnaMS,

    Your Statement:

    “Does the Bible give people a right to sex in marriage? NO. Now remember what I just said above and hang with me here! The Bible very much does give people the responsibility to have sex with their spouse and from that responsibility, we accurately derive a spouse’s right to sex.”

    I disagree the Bible does give people a right to sex in marriage. In fact the Bible gives people not only a right to sex in marriage but it gives people a right to pursue sex itself(through getting married).

    Paul said he had the right to take or seek out a wife(I Corinthians 9:5) and what is one of the main reasons a man seeks out a wife? Sex. Certainly it is not the only reason but it is a powerful motivating driving force. So I maintain people have a right to seek out sexual pleasure but they must do so within the bounds of God’s law.

    We even have a right to pursue other pleasures like painting, reading a good fictional story, watching a movie and all of this is under the general principle of freedom.

    “Every man also to whom God hath given riches and wealth, and hath given him power[right] to eat thereof, and to take his portion, and to rejoice in his labour; this is the gift of God.” – Ecclesiastes 5:19 (KJV)

    God has given us as a gift the RIGHT to work hard for private property, to enjoy fruits of our labor in the form of good food and other things and rejoice in the things our hard work provides us. This goes far beyond the “responsibility to provide” but it is the right to ENJOY the pleasures of this world.

    What God’s forbids is Sensuality. Sensuality is where worldly pleasures become the center of our life’s focus to the neglect of following God’s will for our life for example if we neglect our job or our duty to take care of our family in pursuit of pleasure then it becomes sin. But if a man is providing well for his family and doing what God calls him to and he wants to sit down just enjoy the pleasure of a good football game that is his right and his gift from God.

  49. Where in the Bible does God explicitly tell us we have a right to sex? I maintain that God gives the responsibility from which we derive the right. Throughout the Bible, God has been consistently more focused on our sanctification and his glory rather than our rights.

  50. AnnaMS,

    Your Statement:

    “Where in the Bible does God explicitly tell us we have a right to sex?”

    Anna the Bible could not be clearer on this subject.
    The Bible says men have a right to pursue a wife(I Corinthians 9:5) and thus to pursue sexual relations with a woman.
    Then the Bible says once a man is married he has the right to have sex with his wife. (I Corinthians 7:4)

    So there is both a right to pursue sexual pleasure before marriage and right to have sexual relations within marriage.

    I think your “rights come from responsibilities” theory does not hold up under Biblical scrutiny.

    God created man for his pleasure and his glory(Revelation 4:11). His right to derive pleasure and glory proceeded his creation of mankind. Our responsibility to give God glory with our lives did not proceed his right to be glorified by us.

    God then created a being – Adam in his image and his likeness. He created him with a nature that very closely mirrors his own. Since man was God’s image bearer – he created man with a need to lead, to provide for and to protect. Since God takes pleasure in his creation, he created man with the desire for pleasure as well. He created him with the desire and ability to take pleasure in his work as well as to seek physical pleasure. So God created the cause(man’s needs based on his being the image bearer of God) and then he created the being to allow his image bearer to fulfill his need to lead, provide, protect and seek pleasure. Woman was created to be the being upon which man could exercise all these needs.

    Anna – you seem to be placing a false dichotomy between people exercising their rights and our sanctification. Remember that as part of our sanctification we have roles to play. Man has his role to play and so does woman. When a man takes pleasure in the beauty that is woman he is fulling part of his role as the image bearer of God where God takes pleasure in the beauty of his people.

    Also I think you are failing to realize that God receives glory when we live out our design. For instance, I believe God receives as much glory from a man getting an erection from seeing a beautiful woman and taking pleasure in sexual thoughts about her as he does from a woman holding another woman’s baby in her arms and the pleasure she receives from that experience. Are they totally different types of pleasure? Certainly. But they are both equally by the design of God.

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