90 thoughts on “Equal Rights For Women A Blessing or Curse?

  1. Good clip. The 19th Amendment was one of the more prominent outcomes of so-called sufferage, and one of the biggest mistakes we made as a nation.

  2. I always find this topic interesting. I believe society is greatly to blame for this especially with people in their 20’s and early 30’s (which is my age group.) We were all told “you’re nothing without a degree, nothing without a high paying job.” We were told to go out and “make something of ourselves.”
    Now what? We are all in piles of loan debt. Many young women no longer have the option to stay at home because we are paying off our own debts as well as helping pay the debts of our husbands. I am sure there are women who would choose a career over family but there are also plenty of women my age would would happily give up their career for the blessing to stay at home. The option just isn’t there for most of us anymore and we are called “selfish” for trying to do nothing more than simply get our bills paid. I think a lot of men would be surprised to hear women talk behind closed doors about how much they absolutely hate working outside the home. A lot of us are stressed and tired but we are too embarrassed or nervous to admit it! The majority of us are too broke to even consider it quitting our jobs. We are slaves to our debt, debt is evil too. There are far more anti-feminists out there than the mainstream media wants us to believe, people are just shamed into not admitting their true feelings.

  3. Everyone seems to be focussed on Satan’s first pillar to destroy society, namely Feminism, and it’s wicked goal to have women usurp male authority, to get women out of the home and into the work place etc
    But we neglect to talk about Satan’s second pillar that works hand in hand with the first pillar, namely to make jobs/work obsolete for men so that women don’t have a choice now, they literally have to go out and work
    In my country our wicked Govt through various evil laws and making the cost of living impossible on 1 wage, and kicking men out of the work place and replacing them with women (to fulfil quote`s), have made jobs very scarce for men

    This wicked, vile situation has resulted in a society where women would rather be at home but can’t because 1: men simply don’t earn enough money and 2: or they don’t work at all as there’s no jobs for men anymore
    This was and has always been Satan’s master plan and it works

  4. I don’t think today’s divorce rate has anything to do with the fact that women have equal rights with men. I think the “throw-away culture” is to blame; today many people leave their spouse if they find a “better one” (younger, sexier etc..) and abandon their children to be raised by their other parent (usually mother) if family life “just isn’t for me”.
    Also, we should note that because women today are mostly financially independent and capable of taking care of themselves without their husband providing for them, women now can leave abusive and ungodly husbands. 50 years ago this wasn’t possible for as many women as today. Many women stayed in a bad marriage because they didn’t have any other choice. It’s only good that those times are finally over, even if it means that divorce-rates are skyrocketing.
    And just because women initiate most divorces doesn’t mean that women are actually the guilty party of most divorces. Usually the husband doesn’t see that there’s something terribly wrong with the marriage because he’s happy with his career, free time with friends and being served by the wife at home while the wife is in fact experiencing a burn-out because she doesn’t get to have enough sleep, has many pregnancies in a short time, has to take care of the house and kids even when she is sick or recovering from childbirth, has to have sex with the husband too often and has no time for herself.
    So, maybe divorced men should look in the mirror before blaming his ex-wife or her equal rights for the divorce.

  5. Kryptonian and D,

    Respectfully I would disagree with your assertions that women in mass must work and that families cannot survive on the one income of the man or that men can’t find jobs that can support their families. It is all about planning and preparation. A man should be taught from his teen years to be preparing himself for a future career. After high school he should plan on either getting into a skilled trade, joining the military, build a small business of some sort, or attending college for another type of professional career.

    He should not seek to court any woman until he has a secure type of job that can fully support a family. And when I say “fully support” I don’t mean he has to have a 2500 Sq ft house, two brand new cars and money for lavish vacations money in an account for his kids college funds. What I mean is even he can only afford a 1000 sq ft(which happens to be the size of my house) and he can afford two used cars and can put food on the table and clothes on his wife and children’s back then that is enough.

    I know of young men who have done this and they fully support their families while their wives stay home and care for the children and the home. I am hopeful that my sons will do the same. My oldest son has just finished his two year IT cert program and secured his first job making 30K a year. Within two years after further certs he will be making 50K a year. That is enough if you live simple and don’t have to have fancy vacations and fancy cars. He will make more of course than that as his career progresses.

    My second eldest son, soon to be 19 just finished his plumbing apprenticeship and is looking at offers starting at 50K – and that is only the start. Eventually he will be able to make 80K a year as plumber if he works hard. We in this country are in great need of skilled trades persons(plumbers, electricians, carpenters) because this young people for the last couple decades have bought into the lie that everyone needs to go to college and get a professional degree. That is hogwash. I happen to know people who work in the student loan collections business and it is the biggest racket.

    “Just 5 percent of community college students graduate with two-year degrees in two years and about 36 percent of four-year private and flagship public university and college students with bachelor’s degrees in four.”

    https://hechingerreport.org/colleges-confront-the-simple-math-that-keeps-students-from-graduating-on-time/

    The way to beat this system is that only those students who are going for occupations that must have formal training go to college. If we dry up the number of graduates for other things like business and other degrees you know what will happen? Businesses will be forced to hire people without degrees and have apprenticeship programs. We need to have the government encourage businesses to have internship programs for students right out of high school and bypass the monster and mostly unnecessary college and university system in this country. I attended college for three semesters and I can tell you most of it was a waste and sham. I learned so much more in the actual work environment than I did in college.

    Also women need to be smart like my 16 year old daughter who has no intention of going to college. She says “why would I go to college just to saddle my future husband with that debt?” Amen and Amen. For the most part, unless a woman is called to celibacy in service to God and she wants to be something like a nurse, doctor or school teacher in his service women should be discouraged by Christian fathers from going to college. That would solve a lot of these problems.

    Also – going back to my sons. It is our responsibility as parents to guide our sons in choosing a career path. While I do believe that as young men the decision of the career path is ultimately theirs – we have a place in guiding them. My oldest son from the time he was little always knew he wanted to do something IT and he has finally realized this vision with his first IT job. My second eldest son was all over the map changing every week what he wanted to do. But I knew he was not as book smart as his brother and he struggle badly in school. He was however always good with his hands and was always fixing things. I had to pushed him hard to get into the plumbing apprenticeship and it was hard and dirty work. But he has uncles and other family members that do the trade and they took him in and now a year later he is excelling.

    So in conclusion – it is for these reasons that I respectfully reject the common American saying that “you can’t survive on one income anymore”. You can if you plan it out and follow the principles I have outlined here.

  6. After reading and considering all the points you just made, I have to respectfully disgree with you disagreeing with my comment
    You are an Idealist BGR and unfortunately you conflate your idealistic world view of how things ought to be with how things actually are in reality

  7. Kryptonian, BGR isn’t too far off. I come from a large family and all of my siblings live on one income, and none have illustrious careers. We are all married with children. We all live in houses. I do work a small job of sorts, but I can take the children along with me. Many times they earn a little income themselves by doing odd jobs where I work.

    I passed up some nice young men who would have liked me to be their wife because I knew they could not support a family at the time nor in the future. I also passed up a young man who had a great future and does have an illustrious career (as well as a pedigree) because he expected that I would work full time, too.

    The only thing I would probably butt heads with BGR here is that I do encourage my daughters to find some way to have a lucrative job. I faced a potentially disabled husband and it was scary to think that I wouldn’t have the ability to support our family because I “didn’t need college to get a Mrs. Degree.” Thank God hubby recovered and is back being amazing at his career.

    The point is if one generation chose to live with less and struggle so mom could stay home we could change the course. By the next generation it would be easier for mom to stay home.

  8. Livinginblurredlines,

    In the midst of so many “respectful disagreements” and the “butting of heads” I have to say I totally agree with this statement you made:

    “The point is if one generation chose to live with less and struggle so mom could stay home we could change the course. By the next generation it would be easier for mom to stay home.”

    Nothing will change unless our children decide to make different decisions than our generation and previous generations did. We need to help our children learn from our mistakes not just individually, but as a society and help them to make better decisions. And yes we must become less materialistic in the process.

    You also made a great point about young men expecting their future wives to work like the ones you ran into. That should not be the case I and say shame on them. While I would ultimately love and accept any man my daughter marries if she show chooses – that does not mean I will give my blessing up front to just any man. If she brings home some guy who can barely support himself let alone a family and he wants her to work too and they will just live on love together she will not get my blessing. He has to have a career and job that can support a family BEFORE he marries my daughter if she wants my full blessing ahead of time.

  9. Sam,

    Your Statement:

    “I think the “throw-away culture” is to blame; today many people leave their spouse if they find a “better one” (younger, sexier etc..) and abandon their children to be raised by their other parent (usually mother) if family life “just isn’t for me”.”

    The “thow-away culture” you allude to has little to do with men and much more to do with women. Women tend to be far more emotionally based in their decisions and not duty based like men are. That is why the facts are that women since the 1940s have been the dominate players in divorce. Men will often stay with a wife they do not like as much out of duty – they do their duty despite their feelings. Women on the other hand often allow their emotions to trump their duties and commitments especially when it comes to their husbands.

    There is little to no evidence of men in droves divorce their wives for the younger “model” and some men are dead beat dads that will do as you say and say “family life just isn’t for me”. I am not saying it does not happen sometimes and you and I may know of some cases where it did – but in most cases it is the woman divorcing the man. That is statistical fact.

    Now out of wedlock sexual situations? That is different story especially amongst the African American population where 70 percent of children are born out of wedlock. But that’s not marriage. That is a guy taking what a woman freely gives him(which she should not be giving him until after marriage) and then him deciding he does not want to marry her and be a father. But the stats show that once men marry – they tend to honor that commitment far more often then women do.

    Your Statement:

    “Also, we should note that because women today are mostly financially independent and capable of taking care of themselves without their husband providing for them, women now can leave abusive and ungodly husbands. 50 years ago this wasn’t possible for as many women as today. Many women stayed in a bad marriage because they didn’t have any other choice. It’s only good that those times are finally over, even if it means that divorce-rates are skyrocketing.”

    Sam you have just shot down your own case using your own words. You started this by saying “I don’t think today’s divorce rate has anything to do with the fact that women have equal rights with men” and then you concede here that giving women equality with men(i.e. making them financially independent and able to easily leave their husbands) has lead to skyrocketing divorce rates. You have made my point.

    But you then you try and say its all ok because women are just leaving “abusive and ungodly husbands”. Oh how we all wish that was true but it is not. Then we have to ask ourselve’s what is an “ungodly” husband? Is it a man who occasionally looses his temper with his wife and calls her a bad name? Is it a man who simply looks at his wife the wrong way or does give her everything her heart desires? What is an abusive husband? A husband who simply raises his voice to his wife? A man who does not give his wife complete access to all the money to do what she wants? No my friend. While I believe God permits at least seperation and perhaps divorce for truly abusive situations like when a man is causing serious bodily harm to his wife or children in most cases God calls on women as he does men to suffer for his glory. This is something completely lost on our society today.

    So yes you have women probably much like yourself that think “I don’t have to put with anything from a man and if he does not treat me like the princess I think I am I will leave his sorry behind”. That is a lot of the women in America and that is a lot of the reason we have women doing 70 percent of the divorce in this country.

    But as I have said many times – this will be fixed when western civilization crumbles as result of the destruction of marriage and the family which resulted from giving women equal rights. Its only a matter of time.

  10. BGR, while I absolutely understand what you are saying there are many people too far behind to obtain that scenario. This is a lesson that needed to be ingrained in people my age 10 years ago… before we got ourselves into this mess. While the lifestyle you are talking about IS obtainable, it isn’t obtainable after you’ve already gone too far.

    On the topic of “I don’t think today’s divorce rate has anything to do with the fact that women have equal rights with men” I am absolutely shooting myself in the foot with what I am about to say, but oh well. Being a woman myself, I can see how women’s rights have A LOT to do with the divorce rate! I have the benefit of hearing the raw and uncensored discussions that we have with each other. I don’t ever see myself leaving my husband but I have been told countless times by other women (EVEN MY OWN MOTHER IN-LAW) to do so. I have been told “I shouldn’t put up with him.” and that I should leave him because he is “too controlling.” I am have been told that he shouldn’t get a say in any of my choices nor who I associate with, what I wear, where I work and any other boundaries that he seeks to place around me. These days a couple can divorce over anything little thing in search for their next favorite flavor. As frustrated as I can be with having to listen to him, I am certainly not going to leave him based on those feelings. I feel confident saying that 100% of feminists would disagree with my choice there.

  11. *While the lifestyle you are talking about IS obtainable, it isn’t obtainable after you’ve already gone too far*

    _Nailed it! That’s what I was trying to explain with my very poorly worded comment. BGR`s idealised vision of reality can work very well if all the pieces of BOTH of your lives are properly set in place at a very early age, and assuming you are both pretty much perfect, free from smoking, drinking, vices, a very high paying career, obedient submissive wife, no health issues for both of them, crime free neighborhood, obedient perfect kids, no extended family to look after…..IF all those things are set in place, and that’s a big IF, the idealised fantasy Christian world could become a reality where a wife simply doesn’t need to work

    Reality teaches us quite harshly sometimes that we need to wake up from an Idealistic world view and see the world as it is, not how we wish it to be
    The sad facts are for so many people/couples they are too far gone for the Idealised lifestyle to ever be a practical reality and we need the compassion of Christ and grace to be able to accept that

  12. Kryptonian,

    In regard to this statement you made:

    “BGR`s idealised vision of reality can work very well if all the pieces of BOTH of your lives are properly set in place at a very early age, and assuming you are both pretty much perfect, free from smoking, drinking, vices, a very high paying career, obedient submissive wife, no health issues for both of them, crime free neighborhood, obedient perfect kids, no extended family to look after…..IF all those things are set in place, and that’s a big IF, the idealised fantasy Christian world could become a reality where a wife simply doesn’t need to work”

    I have been called by many people on here as well as in my personal life an “idealist” and I happily plead guilty as charged. Specifically, I am a Biblical idealist. However I am also a realist at the same time. I do not believe we can get to the Biblical ideal, without first considering the reality of the current situation. But a person or culture that is only a realist yet spurns idealism will stay in the same position and never move toward any ideals. In other words, it will never get better.

    The Bible says in Proverbs 29:18 “Where there is no vision, the people perish: but he that keepeth the law, happy is he.”

    So yes I very much understand that for a variety of reasons some Christian couples cannot fully picture the model of Christ and the Church in their marriage specifically in the area of the husband being the provider to the wife as Christ is the provider to his church. Sometimes this is due to situations that were completely out of their control. Sometimes a husband becomes disabled, sometimes a husband dies or sometimes a husband abandons his wife. In these cases a woman has no choice but to become her own provider thus breaking the model that God wanted for her life.

    But if we admit that sometimes women have no choice but to be their own providers, we must also admit that sometimes women find themselves in these predicaments by their own bad life choices.

    For instance if a father allows his daughter, or a woman with no father in her life allows herself to enter into marriage with a man that she knows cannot fully provide for her she has made a conscious decision to break the model that God has set in Ephesians 5. She has decided that she will not model the aspect of the Church depending on Christ’s provision.

    In our current culture people make a lot of bad decisions that cause couples not to be able to meet the Biblical ideal that God intended for man and woman. While some men should go to college based on their intelligence and career choice many others should not. When a man goes to college and racks up thousands of dollars and does not finish or use that degree for work that was a life choice mistake. When women who are not called to celibacy go and rack up thousands of dollars in student loans that saddle themselves and their future husbands that is wrong. Another bad life choice.

    Does this mean we should not show grace toward these individuals who have made these bad life choices that make it difficult or impossible to meet God’s ideal of the woman being full time in the home? Of course not. We should show them grace as we do any other sinners and as we want God to show us as sinners.

    But should we continue to tell people – “Oh its fine just forget God’s ideal it’s not possible anymore.” I am sorry sir but that is not right. This is what God says:

    “1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? 2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?” Romans 6:1-2

    Should we continue to encourage people to make bad decisions that make it difficult if not impossible for them to do what God designed them to do? The answer is no. We can preach the ideal, while accepting and showing grace to those who have made poor life choices that prevent them from fully reaching God’s ideal for their marriage.

  13. One issue is that people simply do not know what to look for in a husband or wife and they have no idea how to be a good husband and wife. Certainly the bible clears these things up, but in a society that is hostile to the ways of God, most people are filled with a snicker or attitude about the very things that will lead them to what is good.

    On this issue one thing I find oddly ironic is how may people say, “my parents had the best relationship where they were together their entire lives and I really want that” and then in the next breath say “but I’m going to do it my way and have a modern marriage”. They do not at all see that modern marriage is incompatible with the results they see from traditional marriage!

    On the ideal vs. real debate, I think we all need to work hard on the ideal. Sure you have to deal with the real, but knowing what is ideal and putting every good effort towards this is God honoring and likely to lead to blessing and fruit.

    The very real problem these days is that women no longer desire to be women. I think I heard on TV the other day that the most absurd thing that society expects women to do is have children! Can you imagine the false wisdom in this for those who buy into it? Their very existence would not be if their own mother subscribed to the concept.

    Like most things, the answer is simple, but not easy. Men, return to doing what God wants you to do. Do not go out with feminists or even consider a wife who will be less than a Godly wife to you. Women, return to doing what God wants you to do. Look for a man with Godly traits who intends on providing for you and meeting his responsibilities towards you. Know His word, know His ways, make wise decisions, and walk with Him!

  14. General links between women’s education, and plummeting birth rates. Look all over most developed countries, and you see the same trends. The only nations that buck that are Argentina and Israel.

  15. I think 1 of the classic examples of where your idealism clashes with reality BGR is your statement and I quote:
    “For instance if a father allows his daughter……to enter marriage”

    Seriously? I don’t know what century you’re living in but you will find that less than .5% of women alive today get married WITHOUT needing or desiring their father’s approval…..the very idea that a woman needs permission from her father to get married is literally laughed and scorned at……literally the only places left on the entire face of the planet that practice such extreme patriarchy are savage extremist Muslim nations where women don’t get a choice

    Now don’t get me wrong, I’m actually on your side, we need to get back to the days where women have no rights, outside of what a father/husband determines for them……society has become so f*******d up precisely because we have granted too much power to women…….I believe no woman should be allowed to marry who she chooses, I believe her father should be the sole determining decider for who he allows to wed his daughter, I accept that and I long for society to be like that……BUT, and this is the key, and you need to follow what I’m saying, society is NOT like that, and will never become like that, and less than .5% of modern western women would allow a situation like that to govern their lives
    This fact alone necessitates that we stop seeing how we wish the world to be and accept the way it actually is, no matter how much it refuses to conform to our way of thinking
    If you find a woman that wishes and embraces to be under the headship of her father, where she doesn’t choose who she can date or see, and then this male authority is transferred to her husband, and he decides what’s best for her, then great! kudos to you and others lucky enough to find such a rare gem BUT that is not how women are, and that is not how it is in the world around us

    I love your material BGR, that is why I’m a subscriber and will continue to support you…..I just find your idealism a very bitter pill to swallow, it grates against my “realistic” world view but I’m open to both sides of this debate and haven’t closed my mind off completely to the possibility that you could be correct here

  16. The idea that I have no rights grinds on me. I am a human being, a daughter of God, of course I have rights! And I am an intelligent woman who can think for herself, worship God, and make a million tiny decisions for our household. My husband safely trusts in me.

    I can accept that I have no personal property. I can give up my right to vote in favor of my husband representing the household. I already give up rights to my body for my husband. I strive and pray to be the perfect submissive wife. But to say I don’t even have NO rights? Not even the right to life? Not even the right to my own thoughts, opinions, concerns? Surely you don’t mean that!

    Listen, I get it. I see how women behave, act, vote, mouth off, etc and I can see why giving them this freedom was a mistake. I grew up mostly around men so I had the privilege of learning to be less emotional and more rational than the average woman. I live a very lonely life because I can’t stand 99.5% of women,out there. They are run by their emotions and scruples (or lack thereof) instead of rational, logical thinking and facts. I can’t have an intellectual conversation with a woman. I have yet to find one I can do that with. However, I have had hours upon hours at a rip of intellectual conversation, debate, and discussions with men. But, since it isn’t appropriate for a married woman to spend hours conversing with another man, I don’t get that joy very often. Women….well, most of them I just want to smack upside the head.

    Part of BGR’s idealism is also that men are men, and good men at that. Unfortunately, today most men are selfish pansy man-babies and intellectual dolts. The rest are abusers and jackasses, with only a remnant being real men a woman can put her safety and trust into.

    So many men contribute to feminism out of selfishness and laziness. I can’t tell you how many times my husband is told to put me to work outside the home so he can kick back, relax, buy beer and that boat, 4 wheeler, hunting camp, etc on my income. Hubby says he has a hard time gathering a full work crew every day because the guys take so much time off of work because their women work and pay the bills. No need to pull in a full week’s pay when your girlfriend or wife is working full time and doing it for you. The only men worth their salt on the jobs are head of household fathers who need to provide for their families.

    Other guys take full advantage of feminism to hook up, shack up, birth control, and abort their way to just “getting some tail.” Instead of standing up and saying no to these harlot-acting women, they are playing the john. They encourage harlotry and many turn down Godly pure women who would live an ordered life.

    There are traditionalists out there. We are trying (and many are raising larger-than-average families) so hopefully it picks up speed. Even among secularists there is a (albeit disordered) desire for dominance/submission. There’s the rockabilly or stepford idea of 1950s America that some adhere to, and there’s the 50 Shades culture which has men being dominant and women submissive even if it doesn’t get into the BDSM portion.

    A lot of women are unhappy that the men are laying around in easy chairs and riding lawn mowers with their ever-growing beer gut, sloppy clothes, and do-nothing attitudes. They are sick of unkempt properties and having to nag him into begrudgingly doing something like trimming the hedges or painting the window frames. Men used to take pride in that sort of thing. Now, it is all about that screen. Heck, women would rather he go out and at least play a sport with his buddies instead of watching the games by himself.

    Telling women to get back in the kitchens isn’t good enough. That’s like telling Eve to hang the apple back up on the tree. Men need to stop taking the apple from Eve. They need to say no, not pass the buck, and be men.

    A woman can be a submissive, Godly wife all day every day, but until her man gets in his place, it is disordered and doesn’t work. By default she ends up having to be dominant.

    But, when a man steps into his role, even,if a wife is feministic, he can still take proper order. It’ll be a challenge, but what’s being a man,if you can’t handle a challenge?

    Look up Fr. Chad Ripperger on YouTube. He’s Catholic, obviously, but he has some great messages on the proper order and traditionalism and the dangers of feminism and communism. Some good stuff there.

  17. I just reread my post. Pardon the bad grammar in “I don’t even have NO rights?” I was altering the sentence but apparently didn’t delete enough of the original and it came out as horrid grammar.

  18. kryptonian51 and livinginblurredlines explained that very well. A large majority of society does not live on these biblical standards therefore these concepts are going to seem far too radical. In their defense, I think that a decent amount of christians honestly think they are doing the right thing. I had misunderstood some of these biblical standards myself until recently, I had to personally write an email to clarify something that apparently is clearly laid out in the bible. Women have always been women and men have always been men. We as humans tend to adapt to the society that we live in. Our social normalities will remain the same until something radical happens to our current structure.

    Even years ago women weren’t perfectly submissive to their husbands 100% of the time. Wives lived in a society where their husbands were allowed to discipline them without their consent, as consent was already given by the society and government that they lived under. A woman didn’t have grounds to go out and prosecute her husband for it (unless he was seriously abusive) because it was completely acceptable in that time period. Sure, it can be said that men and women just need to go be real men and real women again, but that will never happen on a large scale until our society takes a hard drop to it’s knees. 99% of women are not going to just willingly give up their rights unless they were raised in a church where it is normalized. I believe that the American society will fall at one point either due to a social uprise or possibly caused by a war. As long as the aftermath doesn’t start looking like “The Handmaid’s Tale” I think we should be okay. Either way, if the majority of people don’t get on board society will perpetuate as it has been for years.

  19. Seriously? I don’t know what century you’re living in but you will find that less than .5% of women alive today get married WITHOUT needing or desiring their father’s approval…..the very idea that a woman needs permission from her father to get married is literally laughed and scorned at……literally the only places left on the entire face of the planet that practice such extreme patriarchy are savage extremist Muslim nations where women don’t get a choice

    And yet God’s blueprints from Deut 22 seem to be 180 degrees of divergence fro our culture. The question is do we obey God or men.

  20. Fathers have responsibilities towards daughters and husbands have responsibilities towards their wives. It depends on how you define the word rights, but women are certainly due responsibilities by men in their lives according to the bible.

    livingblurredlines points out quite excellently that the failings of the current situation are not merely the result of women failing to do what they should, but men failing every bit as much or more. One can even argue that as God approached Adam in the garden first because God held Him responsible, He almost certainly holds men more responsible for the complete disaster that both men and women are in now. On a society level, men have nothing to boast about in this mess – had they been men in the first place, we wouldn’t be here On a personal level you may have been a Godly husband and your wife failed you because of societies teachings, in that case you might have done what you could and it isn’t your fault, but on a societal level, yeah I think men will be judged for this more than women.

  21. To livinginblurredlines– this is wisdom, sister. Amen! Thank you for this:

    “Telling women to get back in the kitchens isn’t good enough. That’s like telling Eve to hang the apple back up on the tree. Men need to stop taking the apple from Eve. They need to say no, not pass the buck, and be men.

    A woman can be a submissive, Godly wife all day every day, but until her man gets in his place, it is disordered and doesn’t work. By default she ends up having to be dominant.

    But, when a man steps into his role, even,if a wife is feministic, he can still take proper order. It’ll be a challenge, but what’s being a man,if you can’t handle a challenge?”

    As much as women do have a responsibility in all of the mess, this is the root of the problem. It started in the Garden when Adam chose passivity. And every son of Adam inherited it. Men hold the ultimate accountability. Then and now.

  22. It started in the Garden when Adam chose passivity…

    That is modern evangelical folklore. The text says “Because you have LISTENED TO THE VOICE OF YOUR WIFE…
    ‭‭Genesis‬ ‭3:17‬a NASB‬‬

    The problem is not passivity, but Adam wanted to please the woman more than he feared God. He feared losing fellowship with Eve more than losing fellowship with God. The modern man spends too much time and too many resources actively trying to please women who are not pleased to be what the were created to be and in what role God created them. If Adam had simply chosen to refuse his wife even if she had taken a bite, then the covenant head of humanity would not have fallen, but perhaps his helpmeet would be lost to him.

    There are two psychological sins in the fall, Eve wanted to be something she was not, to be as a god and Adam wanted to be loved by Eve and thought that giving her what she wanted demonstrated his love for her. The result is death and the need for Christ to rescue His own bride from her sinfulness; to do what Adam failed to do. Today women still want to be what they are not and in roles that they were not created for and men are told to love them by listening to them and giving them what they say they want. Adam did not obey the Word, but listened to Eve, the church encourages men to not obey the Word but listen to their wives. See a pattern here?

  23. Jonadeb, you are correct. I literally just listened to Fr. Ripperger explain what you just wrote. It wasn’t passivity…perhaps I explained that poorly in my post. Today, it has translated to passivity. I hate when men just throw up their hands and abdicate and placate at the first hint of negativity in their women, either to win her love (some love, eh?) or to create a false sense of “peace” in the home.

    Yes, I believe if Adam said no to Eve he would have been spared and perhaps God would have given him Susan instead.

  24. ”The question is do we obey God or men”

    There’s that [language removed] awful idealism again. Its got NOTHING to do with whether we obey God or man, the REALITY is 99% of society does NOT obey God and is not living in this idealised utopia that YOU imagine or wish the world to be……women do not (as a general rule) live under their father’s authority and in fact , they would laugh their heads off at the assertion that before she can date anyone her father has to grant approval FIRST, she has no say in who her future husband is to be. Yeah right, let’s see how that works out for you buddy in the next woman you come across…..we’re living in the 21st century, not patriarchal Israel in the 15th century B.C

    And when you say “WE” obey God who are you referring too? The world or Christians? My bible already tells me that it’s virtually irredeemable, cannot be reformed and it lives in a state of disobedience anyway….in fact Paul says you would literally have to leave this planet if you expect it to conform to Christian standards 1st Corinthians 5:10,
    So if you’re referring to the Christian community, especially women, then according to the stats, you’re sh*t out of luck there as well, as our Christian sisters live like the world lives and they will not be told who they can date or not, especially the fossil relic attitude of living under their father’s authority. Modern women are independent and intelligent and they don’t fall for such antiquated notions

    I’ll never forget a funny cartoon video I saw on YouTube, it was put out by an extremist independent Baptist church on how a first date with a woman should be. On this date the man had a list of expectations from this woman which he rattled off to get as they were sitting down over a meal, women cannot be pastor’s, women can’t speak in church, no choirs in church because they’re unbiblical, no musical instruments in church as they are sinful, no Sunday school classes as they are unbiblical, no celebration of Xmas as it is pagan, blah blah blah , suffice it to say the women in this skit was totally bored and ended the date saying he and his church were“too biblical” and boring and she promptly left……no doubt the guy left the table with blue balls and no woman. The point was this skit had the complete opposite effect in what it was designed to do, the maker of the video put this skit out with the intention of showing how wordly modern Christian women have become and that they are not worth dating, but all this video did for me was show how pathetic and antiquated and idealistic it is to expect women to conform to their biblical idealistic world view
    This is why I reject Idealism with a vengeance, it simply is not based in reality, in fact I would go so far to say it’s delusional, it’s an attempt to get the world and those around us to conform to an idealised set of beliefs and morals that are simply alien to them. There’s nothing wrong in standing by the word of God, and instructing others in what we think is God’s point of view, the mistake we make is in EXPECTING the world and others to live as we expect them too, or to conform to our way of thinking, even if we think we’re right, all we can do is live by our own values without feeling the need that we need to change those who don’t see it our way.

  25. …the mistake we make is in EXPECTING the world and others to live as we expect them too, or to conform to our way of thinking…

    I demand any boy that wants to ask my daughter on a date ask me before they go out. My daughters know this and embrace it. I demand that my sons ask the father of the girl they wish to date to first ask her father. Both of my sons have followed this protocol thus far. It’s not idealism it’s being a father, a father that tries to live the Word of God even when he is ridiculed.

  26. May I ask how old your daughter is?
    I suspect and willing to bet she is under 17…..I’ll wait for awhile then ask you again when she’s 25-30 and ask if she’s willing to let daddy dictate to her who she can and cannot see

  27. kryptonian51,

    In regard to this statement you made:

    “May I ask how old your daughter is?
    I suspect and willing to bet she is under 17…..I’ll wait for awhile then ask you again when she’s 25-30 and ask if she’s willing to let daddy dictate to her who she can and cannot see”

    I am going to start with this latest comment and then work back to some others – there have been a lot throughout the day from various people that I am going to take on. I think if Jonadab’s daughter was not married well before she was 25 he would be as surprised as would I be if my daughter were not married by that age. Because if he is anything like me he is teaching his daughter to seek marriage right after high school. But I am sure that like me – he wants to make sure she chooses wisely as well so neither of us want her to take just any man, but rather a good and Bible believing Christian man of good character and means to provide for her.

    If Jonadab has the relationship with his daughter that I do with mine(who is 16) then its not a matter of him dictating anything to her. She will follow his wishes in regard to who she dates because of her deep respect for him and her beliefs that been ingrained in her since she was a small child. Now is it possible for our children to go astray from our teachings? Absolutely. My older two son’s following some of my teachings while disagreeing with others. All we can do as parents is instill in them what God teaches and when they are adults they will choose whether to follow it or not.

  28. One the topic of women’s rights
    I personally know two young women who grew up as very reformed baptists with arranged marriages and the whole works. Both of them ended up having kids out of wedlock after they divorced in their early 20’s. One of them actually has three children from three different fathers. BOTH of these women are now feminists, I believe one of them graduated with a minor in gender studies? Both of these women lost ties with their families. After they grew up they decided their own path in life, unfortunately this was the outcome. Technically if these women never had legal rights or “women’s rights” then these things never would have been able to happen. They might have been able to work out their relationship problems had they stuck with it longer. It is always wise to remember that it was women who started the feminism movement. Now having admitted that, here is where I get conflicted with the whole women’s right debate….

    If God gave us all free will, is it or is it NOT justified biblically to force women into submission by not allowing for things women’s rights? I am honestly asking. It is one thing to teach your children that it is part of our job as men or women to act in a certain manner. When children grow old enough they are released into the world and expected to make reasonable choices based on the knowledge of their upbringing. The choices that they make when given freedom speaks volumes about who they are as individuals. Isn’t it a whole different thing to force those actions by not allowing women to have legal rights? The bible talks about free will, but I am also hearing that there are bible verses that speak directly about how female submission is not voluntary so which is it? I understand that the bible talks about a wife’s submission to her own husband. I am not understanding or seeing that it talks about women also being under the ownership of men in general society to the point where we don’t have rights.

  29. Ah okay it looks like BGR was typing that out at the same time, I think that may have cleared up my question above just disregard that!

  30. kryptonian51,

    In regard to your statement below:

    “Seriously? I don’t know what century you’re living in but you will find that less than .5% of women alive today get married WITHOUT needing or desiring their father’s approval…..the very idea that a woman needs permission from her father to get married is literally laughed and scorned at……literally the only places left on the entire face of the planet that practice such extreme patriarchy are savage extremist Muslim nations where women don’t get a choice”


    Your .5% of women needing or desiring their father’s approval is way off.

    The article below is from a feminist who is lamenting that the father giving the blessing and giving away his daughter at the wedding tradition is still very much alive and well in our modern egalitarian society:

    “According to a 2015 survey from TheKnot.com of what appear to be overwhelmingly heterosexual couples, more than three-quarters of men ask for permission from their partner’s father or parents before they propose. By contrast, only 58 percent of brides say they knew a proposal was coming, but just weren’t sure when – for 40 percent, it was a complete surprise. In other words, more men talk to their girlfriend’s father about a plan to marry than talk about marriage, in serious and relatively immediate terms, to the woman they actually want to marry.”

    https://www.cosmopolitan.com/sex-love/a12107658/ask-bride-father-permission-proposal-engagement/

    However, I would concede though that this is often a mere tradition in our modern society and many fathers who have abandoned their Biblical duties simply rubber stamp whatever their daughters want. But I have known of many women in my life from different walks of life, whether they were Christian or non-Christian that cared very much what their father thought of the men they were interested in for marriage.
    But even if most of this is just a cute tradition and no serious indication of the fathers authority – those women who do embrace their father authority are still not .5%.

    According Pew Research, 25 percent of Americans identified as Evangelical Christians while 20 percent claimed to be Catholic, 15 percent were Mainline Protestant and the rest were either other faiths or non-affiliated with any particular faith. In these studies Evangelicals were defined as born again believers, who believed the Bible was the Word of God and Jesus Christ was the only way. Baptists, whether they be southern, reformed, missionary, independent or other Baptists make up the bulk of the evangelical group while there are some conservative Lutherans, Methodists and Pentecostals included.

    Now I know from own research that even among evangelicals the vast majority are not fully following Biblical gender roles. But its more than the .5 percent you stated. I would estimate its probably more like 5 percent of Christians nationwide that are intentionally trying to follow Biblical gender roles, specifically trying to model the relationship of Christ to the Church with the man leading, teaching, providing and protecting his wife and women trying to be submissive and depending on their husband’s provision. But I would estimate that among these Bible believing evangelicals there are a great deal more who would follow Biblical gender roles if they only knew the way.

    D previously stated “I think that a decent amount of Christians honestly think they are doing the right thing.” And I agree with that. For many Bible believing Christians, it is a more a matter of ignorance due to the lack of spiritual leadership and teaching in our churches than a willful disobedience to God’s commands for many Bible believing Christians. The test for us as believers, both men and women, is how we respond when God shows us things in his Word we did not previously know.

    That is one of the primary missions of this site – to educate Bible believing Christians, those who listen to what the Word of God teaches and to show them the way. Yes, there will be many, a vast majority who will refuse to hear God’s Word – but there are faithful remnant that will listen.

  31. D,

    You and kryptonian51 may be misunderstanding my answer in regard to Jonadab and his daughter.

    I stated that if he had a good relationship with his daughter and taught her the ways of God (i.e. Biblical gender roles) growing up it would not be a matter of him dictating anything to her.

    What I meant was that he would simply tell her he did not approve and she would listen. In fact, in many cases she would not even choose to date a man unless she sought her father’s approval of him first. I did not mean that he did not have the Biblical authority to actually dictate to her that she could not date or marry someone. He does have that authority. But we live in a society that does not enforce the rights of fathers over their daughters anymore so a father can give this order to his adult daughter, but our society allows her to sinfully refuse him.

    So, in this society we as fathers can only hope that our daughters will follow our lead in whom they date and marry in obedience to God’s Word. Even if they choose not to follow us – we are not obligated to bless whomever they date or marry. Now if they do marry someone against our approval, then we show the grace of God in loving that man as a part of our family despite the fact that we did not approve. – This where the “ideal” meets the “real”.

    In regard to your question about freedom – the submission of wives to their husbands is no more voluntary than a soldier’s submission to his commander is voluntary or the Church’s submission to Christ is voluntary.
    The Hebrew word for marriage is “baal” (noun to own/master, verb to be owned/mastered) and marriage in the Hebrew language literally meant a woman coming to be owned by a man. This is why adultery was considered a property crime in its original context even though it was later expanded by God into a spiritual context:

    “If a man be found lying with a woman married (“baal” verb form ‘owned’/’mastered’) to an husband (“baal” noun form “owner/master”), then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.”
    Deuteronomy 22:22

    That concept is seen throughout the Bible even with Christ coming to purchase his bride, the Church.

    “Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.”
    Acts 20:28 (KJV)

    Now that does not mean women do not have any rights given by God. Exodus 21:8 reveals that a woman has the right to marry and cannot be kept be forcibly kept celibate:

    “If she please not her master, who hath betrothed her to himself, then shall he let her be redeemed: to sell her unto a strange nation he shall have no power, seeing he hath dealt deceitfully with her.”

    So, if a man purchased a Hebrew woman as servant, he either had to marry her or let her be redeemed by another man. If he or his son did marry her they had to honor her rights as a wife to provided for with food, clothing and sex.

    I have argued many times that this law that a woman could not be forced to remain celibate by her master would also apply to her father. While a father could choose whom his daughter married, that authority could not be abused to force her to be celibate for life unless of course she allowed herself to be seduced by a man and then he could refuse her marriage to that man (see Exodus 22:17).

    And as far a right to life – all human beings are given a right to life by God. That is why God prescribes punishments even for masters killing their slaves (see Exodus 21:20). Women have the right to be a live and not have their lives unjustly taken. Now of course if a woman does something like murder or a crime worthy of death that is a different story.

    But contrary to the Declaration of Independence’s assertion, God does not give us the right to pursue whatever makes us happy. If what we are pursing for our happiness violates his law, then we are forbidden from such activity. And God requires women to submit to their husbands in “everything” (Ephesians 5:24). So that means as long as your husband is not commanding you to sin you must do what he says, even if it does not make you happy. Even if you don’t want to. And sometimes he might not allow you to do something that you think would make you happy and you are called by God to submit to this.
    So, under God’s law women do not have full autonomy.

    But even men don’t get to do whatever makes them happy. Men are required to provide for their wives even under grueling conditions. They are required to confront their wives when they sin even if it will disrupt the relationship and cause them stress. They are required by God to stay with and be faithful to wives that are contentious, disobedient and shameful toward them.

    In other words, both men and women have different rights under God’s law. But they also have different responsibilities that go with those rights.
    Now do I think husbands should allow their wives the basic exercise of free will wherever possible? Of course. Do some men abuse their authority? Absolutely – I have seen it first hand and have received emails from men that I have rebuked. There are men that won’t let their wives pick out so much as curtain color in their house. They won’t let them pick any groceries. They never let them wear anything they want to wear. Now I do think a husband has say in these things – but he should give his wife freedom wherever possible especially if its not a moral decision.

  32. D,

    Your Statement:

    “I believe that the American society will fall at one point either due to a social uprise or possibly caused by a war. As long as the aftermath doesn’t start looking like “The Handmaid’s Tale” I think we should be okay. Either way, if the majority of people don’t get on board society will perpetuate as it has been for years.”

    It’s funny that you mentioned “The Handmaid’s Tale”. My wife and I are watching the Hulu series rendition of the Book. I am also researching the differences between the book and the series. I am not saying I am going to read the whole book, but I am getting the jist of it so I can talk about the major themes in it.

    I will say from what I have read and what I have watched on the show I disagree with a great many things in that story. But I do believe that falling fertility rates, which served a precursor to theocratic dictatorship in that story, will actually bring about the fall of the United States and the rest of the Western world. But the cause of the falling fertility rates will not be pollution or the pesticides and chemicals used in growing and processing foods like the Handmaid’s tale suggest, but rather it will completely come down to the choices women have been making for decades and are making now to have less than children than the replacement level.

    At a certain point that choice will be taken from women because if it is not the mankind will go extinct. I showed in recent articles that a United Nations study “Population 2300” shows if current trends continue and women have fewer and fewer children by 2300 the world population will drop to 2 billion. It fall further after that each generation until man is extinct by a woman’s choice not to have enough children. So its only a matter of time until the house of cards that feminism built falls.

    So when that fall comes I absolutely believe we should move away from secular democracies with women’s rights to theonomic republics where only male citizens may vote and hold positions of power. I also believe that we should as a society be able to agree and enshrine in our laws basic Christian values while still allowing for a diversity of Christian denominations (in other words no state church like in the HandMaid’s tale) I agree with the handmaid’s tale that women should loose their ability to own property – giving women this ability to own property disconnected them from needing men and thus caused a fracture in one the fundamental dependencies that caused marriage to occur throughout humanity. Men needed women for sex, to bear their children and care for their homes and children. Women needed men for provision and protection. We removed women needing men for these things and thus we have have watched the destruction of marriage and the family as a result.

  33. I’m surprised Anna Sophia and Elizabeth Botkin are not married. They patiently wait for their prince charming in their cloistered idealism, having spent their entire young lives preparing to be young wives. The Duggar girls, Jasmine Baucham…all young proponents of idealized Gothardism and traditionalism are married to more worldly men. One of the Duggar girls wears shorts and pants now. Jasmine Baucham has a career.

    I love the idealism to a fault. I mourn over the loss of it in reality. But, I don’t think it is wrong to live that way and have expectations. But, I doubt the world is going to go “ah ha!” and change their ways.

  34. But, I doubt the world is going to go “ah ha!” and change their ways.

    The culture will not change for the better if Christians do not lead the way. Christianity currently is not in a leadership position because the church has abandoned Biblical blueprints for expediency and outreach. Evangelicals true to their name have abandoned piety and holiness as the primary method of advancing the kingdom of Christ and replaced it with marketing, entertainment and evangelism. The result is as they say a mile wide and a nanometer deep.

    By conflating the uses of the law the church has abandoned Biblical ethics and the fear of the Lord. They cry out “I’m not under the law but under grace so the law cannot inform my ethics or direct my life.” Since the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, that is to say the very first step, I am sad to report that the church has no wisdom for they have not even taken that first step. Church services are filled with entertainment including stand-up, pop psychology, mindless singing of choruses and the fear of women, but not the fear of the Lord. I contend that without the fear of the Lord the gospel is not really good news and judgement is not a terrifying tribunal of sin, but more like a graduation party. Seeking to be all things to all people the church has become nothing and the kingdom languishes. After all friendship with the world is enmity with God. Perhaps no tenant has become more destructive in the church than it’s syncretism with feminism including the pre-first wave variety. I expect the world to be taken captive by various philosophies, but I also hold the church accountable for failing to tear down these strongholds and take every thought captive for Christ. Idealism maybe, but because Christ is my ideal doesn’t that just make that idealism Christianity?

  35. I have many thoughts on the Botkins, but sharing them would become gossipy and may even be unkind. So your point stands that fathers need wisdom and vision for their daughters. I also know of other lovely girls who like the Botkins seemed to be passed over who did eventually did marry late and have from all accounts joy filled God pleasing marriages. Patience is not necessarily an evil to be avoided.

  36. Jonadab,

    You said:
    “The culture will not change for the better if Christians do not lead the way.”

    I very much agree with you on this. We can be “real” and recognize the reality of how far our churches and culture has fallen and yet hold forth the ideals of the Word of God as a beacon of light to a world in darkness. We will not change millions of people and countries over night, or next year, or even in the next decade. However we can help to bring about change one person at a time. One person at a time sharing their faith, and sharing the truth of God’s Word. One person at a time, taking a person aside and discipling them.

    Whether it be in whom young people date, whom they marry, how they conduct their marriage and how they parent people can make choices against culture. Cultures have different traditions like foods, art and clothing styles. If those traditions don’t violate the Word of God then we may enjoy and celebrate them. But as Christians we are called to be discern those part of our culture which do not violate God’s Word and those which do. We are called to live counter to those things which do not measure up to God’s Word no matter what the cost.

    D wrote that “We as humans tend to adapt to the society that we live in.” And that is an absolutely a true statement. Most people follow the herd. But just because something is natural to us as humans, does not always make it right. For instance if a young man is aroused by the sight of a young woman that is a natural response and we can see in the Scriptures and God blesses this. This was part of the built nature God designed man with. But then sometimes our natural responses are not right. When we are fearful and just want to blend in that may be a natural response as well, but it is comes from the sin nature – not our God given nature.

  37. I was surprised to see how popular The Handmaid’s Tale actually is. I have not read the book, the show is getting pretty violent and cutthroat and there are many aspects that I don’t agree with. In my opinion it would have made more sense to have gone with polygamy opposed to how they did it in the show. I could actually see underpopulation coming even sooner than 2030 if we really are headed for WW3. I believe it was Putin that said something along the lines of how a WW3 would nearly put an end to civilization and population because our technology is so much more advance than that of the past years.

  38. Which parts of Deut 22 are we to follow?
    The part where it’s a sin if I wear clothing made of 2 different materials? Or how about the one where if I rape a Virgin damsel there is no punishment for me, except she has to become my wife because I humbled her
    Is it ok if I obey those instructions in Deut 22 or do I selectively choose which of God’s laws apply for today

  39. I’m sorry but I must have missed your response to my question….. So how old are your daughters? And would I be correct in assuming they are just children around 14_17 years of age where obedience to daddy is paramount
    And would I be correct in assuming that no daughter around 25_35 years of age will let daddy decide who they can and can’t see other than some brainwashed Amish women still living at home

  40. Kryptonian,

    Your Statement:

    “Which parts of Deut 22 are we to follow?
    The part where it’s a sin if I wear clothing made of 2 different materials? Or how about the one where if I rape a Virgin damsel there is no punishment for me, except she has to become my wife because I humbled her
    Is it ok if I obey those instructions in Deut 22 or do I selectively choose which of God’s laws apply for today”

    Have you not read and also listened to my materials on proper methods of Biblical interpretation? You must distinguish between the Moral, Ceremonial and Civil laws given in the Old Testament understanding them in light of the New Covenant. While the Ceremonial and Civil laws are passed away in the New Covenant, the moral laws found in Deuteronomy and other Old Testament books remain.

    Read these articles for a better understanding.
    https://biblicalgenderroles.com/what-is-the-distinction-between-the-moral-ceremonial-and-civil-laws-of-the-old-testament/
    https://biblicalgenderroles.com/2018/03/20/shellfish-mixed-fabrics-and-slavery-oh-my/

  41. My comment wasn’t addressed to you lol
    I will address your comment as soon as I get time, suffice it to say the tactic of splitting the “Law” into 3 different categories is the EXACT same tactic the 7th day adventists use in order to prove that Christians are still under the law to uphold their wicked belief that works are still required for salvation
    I will promise, like I said to address this fundamental error in exegesis when I get time BGR

  42. Kryptonian,

    Actually that is not the EXACT same thing 7th day Adventists do sir. I am well familiar with their doctrines. They routinely mix the ceremonial laws with the moral law which accounts for their false doctrines. And the understanding of the law of Moses being divided into three parts moral, ceremonial and civil was recognized by most Protestant denominations including the Anglican Church, the Methodist Church, the Lutheran Church and the Presbyterian Churches. Even many Baptist Churches including the Southern Baptists and Reformed Baptists recognize this distinction. Now do the vast majority of clergy today who don’t understand more than their professors told them in college know the historic stands of their churches? The answer is no. But that is due to a lack of ignorance.

    When you do get around to addressing this “fundamental error” as you call it – please do me a favor and add the comments to these pages after you read them. Please read what I wrote and then argue with the Scriptures I present.

    https://biblicalgenderroles.com/how-to-correctly-interpret-the-bible/
    https://biblicalgenderroles.com/what-is-the-distinction-between-the-moral-ceremonial-and-civil-laws-of-the-old-testament/
    https://biblicalgenderroles.com/what-are-the-moral-laws-of-god-in-the-old-testament/

    I just want to make sure we don’t hijack this thread with your denial of the distinction between moral, ceremonial and civil law.

  43. Um, hi. I’m a 14 year old girl and I’m not Christian and no one in my family is either..but I’ve always been unsure of what my role is to be in society and just what to do and how to continue in life in general. I’ve watched the video and now I’m even more confused on what part I should play in the world. I’d really appreciate it if you could give me some advice or help me in some way. Thanks! 🙂

  44. After much deliberation and thought in how I should respond to answering your questions on the topic of the “Law”, I have decided that I honestly can’t be bothered to go in length for several reasons:
    1: This topic is so large that it is way beyond the scope of a mere comment of mine, in order to do it justice, which would then place it as “hijacking” this thread which I don’t want to do
    2: The arbitrary splitting of the “LAW” into civil, ceremonial and moral is an entirely fictional, man made distinction that is simply not supported by scripture. It is and always has been an excuse by those who want to choose which parts of the law an individual may or may not obey. In order to “prove” that the law is divided into 3 distinct parts, you as a bible scholar would have to show beyond a shadow of doubt that everywhere the term “LAW” is used, especially when it occurs in the New Testament, that it is specifically referring to the ceremonial aspect, or the moral aspect of the law., and you simply cannot do that as it is impossible to prove a negative
    3: The “LAW” is a UNIT, it is 1 massive system, and it is bungling of a most egregious kind, and sloppy exegesis, which leads bible students to arbitrarily make distinctions between the various aspects of the law, and a plain case of special pleading
    4: The bible never makes a distinction between civil, ceremonial or moral in its demands on the individual, they all carry the same weight of a “Thus saith the Lord”, it is written, just obey it and stop making excuses because all that has done is give the atheists and the mockers ammunition for their attacks on the integrity of the bible and made Christians look like hypocrites in their attempts to evade obeying some parts of the law while holding onto others
    5; The only distinction the bible makes with the law, is whether the law or parts of it are for the Jew or the Gentile…see for e.g where the Sabbath was NEVER for us Gentiles to obey as it was given to the nation of Israel Eze 20:12  “Moreover also I gave them my sabbaths, to be a sign between me and “THEM”, that they might know that I am the LORD that sanctify them”
    6; Those who insist on making arbitrary distinction within the law will run into huge problems like in Deut 22 where having to marry someone you rape is NOT ceremonial or civil, but part of the MORAL aspect. Also taking war booty for myself after pillaging a city in war, same with having sex with your brother’s wife if your brother dies, those are all moral parts of the law

    Christians as a whole should never have made distinctions in the law in order to answer the tough questions thrown at us by atheists and mockers like shell fish/dietary laws, clothing made of 2 different material….Instead we should have answered them by the Gentile/non Gentile distinction, and seeing Israel as a Theocracy where a lot of laws and requirements were specific to the nation of Israel and NOT to us as Gentiles
    That way we would have been able to answer the objections of the scoffers, instead of stupidly saying the law is split into 3 different aspects to counter their objections

    Anyway I’ve said enough….every man should read what I say and answer to his own conscience and prayerful study of the word of God to see if what I’ve said line up with scripture, and YES I did read all your comments in the links you provided BGR, but I truthfully didn’t understand what you meant by linking your comments to this page?

    Anyway it’s a moot point as after this last comment of mine, I’m done with this particular topic and wish to stay on topic at hand with “equal rights for men and women”
    Anyone who wishes to discuss the subject of the “Law” further with me is welcome to do so, but NOT in BGR’s thread here please

    Perhaps I might get lucky and Jonadab will have the testicular fortitude to answer my question to him about the age of his daughters, so we can continue to discuss the Idealistic as opposed to Realistic world view here. That should be very interesting!

  45. @ K51. Since it seems of the utmost importance to you, my oldest daughter is 20. Probably too young for you to court.

    On the other matter, the 3 divisions of the law are indeed derived from scripture and not imposed upon it. The book of Hebrews is critical to understanding how Christ satisfied and fulfilled the shadows and types of the ceremonial law. The ministry of Paul is largely against the Jews who conflated seperation laws with moral laws. James is concerned with the pertetuation of the moral law. Etc.

    There is debate on which civic laws expired and which are still required for the general equity. IMO- the laws concerning rape, virginal-fraud and premarital sex are part of the moral law and God’s design for societies. If these laws were followed today most of the social problems in western society would not exist.

    You seem to be concerned with mixed threads, IMO that is an instance of a seperation law which has expired as a type and shadow of the NT reality. We can eat bacon, gentiles are Children of Abraham by faith, and my clothing does not have tassels. Our seperation from the world is not the outward signs, what eat and drink, but the inward reality of holiness in Christ. Volumes have been written on these matters by men of great minds and humble piety. Just the published work of the Puritans on the law could fill bookcases. It strikes me that to reject the tripartite division out of hand not only dishonors the fathers of faith who preceded us, but exhibits an arrogance that places certainty upon ones own opinion.

  46. @Jonadab

    One of the things I absolutely detest about WordPress is that there is simply no option to make parts of a comment you type as “Bold” type, or to use italics, or to show clearly you are quoting someone. WordPress is seriously deficient in this regard and perhaps the reason why I tend not to get into proper debates with people on WordPress instead I do most of my blogging on YouTube which is far superior

    But I will strive to do my best to answer some of your issues you raised Jonadab in your last comment:

    @Probably too young for you to court@

    Straw man argument, as I have no intention of dating your daughter or anyone else’s….The issue was, the only females who need their daddy’s permission to “date” are little girls who are still living at home, I seriously doubt that once your eldest daughter leaves home, and enters the real world, and works and finds a job, and deals with “real” people, that she would be too concerned to only date someone YOU approve of…..1 day she will grow up and not need your permission or consent. The retarded notion that daughters will live with mommy and daddy, and still be a virgin, especially at 20 years of age, and not work for a living, but wait for the “right man” to come and wisk her away is idealized fantasy at best

    @The book of Hebrews is critical to understanding how Christ satisfied and fulfilled the shadows and types of the ceremonial law@

    Absolute garbage….Once again, you have arbitrarily imposed your preconceived notions about the “LAW” and insisted that when the book of Hebrews is talking about the “LAW” that it is only the ceremonial aspects ONLY that were satisfied. This garbage exegesis is precisely how the cults, and the apostate Lordship Salvation crowd “prove” that Christ’s death did not satisfy the moral requirements of the law, instead only the ceremonial parts of the law were done away with at the cross, therefore Christians still have to obey the law in order to be truly saved
    The very language and context in the book of Hebrews, every time the word “LAW” is used, proves to any objective reader, that it is definitely NOT just talking about the ceremonial aspects, but the moral law and the 10 commandments, see Hebrews 9:19

    @The ministry of Paul is largely against the Jews who conflated seperation laws with moral laws@

    Absolute garbage….Paul describes himself as THE apostle to the Gentiles, and it is that ministry alone that defined Paul’s whole life Romans 11:13, he wasn’t concerned about with the Jews issue on the minutiae of the finer aspects of the law. Paul labored at great lengths to show the Gentiles that salvation is by grace through faith without the works/deeds of the law, and you can bet your bottom dollar that every time Paul used the word “LAW” it was the law as a whole, and the moral law, not just the ceremonial parts….This disgusting habit of splitting the law up into 3 parts was never taught by Paul, in fact it was repudiated by him, just by looking at the context every time he used the word ;law”….see Romans 7:7

    @that is an instance of a seperation law which has expired as a type and shadow of the NT reality@

    Once again, YOU are imposing your preconceived notions of the law as a tripartite entity into the text….It’s a figment of your fertile imagination, a fantasy, an unwanted intrusion that the scriptures never call for. It’s also dangerous, because to say that only the ceremonial aspect of the law is a type and shadow that was done away with at the cross, then what assurance do you have that Christ’s blood has cleansed you from the moral law, the entire 10 commandments etc….Don’t bother answering as it’s a rhetorical question

    @not only dishonors the fathers of faith who preceded us, but exhibits an arrogance that places certainty upon ones own opinion@

    The only group that uses that terminology of “fathers of faith” are the Catholics and eastern orthodoxy…..Suffice it to say that I care as much for the perverted opinions of Catholics as I do for the evil religion of Islam

    As for my arrogance, I guess it works both ways then……what makes you and BGR think you’re so right on this issue?, does YOUR intractability prove that you both are equally as arrogant as me, when I make such strong assertive scriptural stands for the opposing view

  47. K51 – Regarding your comment “The retarded notion that daughters will live with mommy and daddy, and still be a virgin, especially at 20 years of age, and not work for a living, but wait for the “right man” to come and wisk her away is idealized fantasy at best.”

    I have a 24 year old daughter, who still lives at home and is not only a virgin but she has never been kissed by anyone other than family. She has never been on a single date. She was home-schooled and raised with the expectation that she would not date, but someday would court with the help of myself guiding her to choose an appropriate husband. She did get a 2 year degree (no debt) from our local community college and does currently work a full time job to support herself. She drives a paid for car and has quite a bit of savings in the bank. She wants nothing more than to be a wife and mother and live out the purpose for which God created her for. We are waiting on the Lord to send us the right man.

    She does not live this way under draconian compulsion but willingly, out of respect for me and the God she serves. The Bible tells us to raise our children in the way they should go and when they are old they will not depart from it. There is nothing idealized or retarded about it. It is not a fantasy but VERY much reality. As true Christians we are called to live our lives according to the Word of God regardless of the society around us. We are called to be a set-apart people. We are in this world but instructed to NOT be of it. That is true Christianity.

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