This article has been updated and moved to my new site, BiblicalSexology.com, which is dedicated exclusively to the topic of sex from a Biblical perspective. You can find the updated version of this article here.
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Biblical Gender Roles 
This is a very interesting post for me and I really enjoyed reading it from a man’s perspective. For me, faking it has never been wrong. I’ve used Rahab and the Hebrew midwives as examples before to make the exact same argument on lying, so I’m in complete agreement here. My husband however, while he does NOT think that all lying is sin, doesn’t want me to ever fake it when it comes to sex. This could of course mean just that since we’re still starting out, he needs my honest response and reaction to him in order for us to learn. This could of course go away in time. But as of now, when he found out that I had faked it once, he was very upset and hurt and asked me to promise never to do it again. Some insight here would be helpful, because I do truly want to learn what is best.
Another question I had is when you said that if a woman rejects her husband’s penis or semen, she is in essence rejecting him. This doesn’t make sense to me because a husband is not merely reduced to his penis or the semen it produces. I am definitely not saying that a woman can reject her husband sexually without any damage to his self-esteem, because that is irrefutably false. Just because a woman does not love every single possible use of every single part of her husband doesn’t mean that she is rejecting him. When my stomach gets sore during pregnancy, I love my husband’s soothing hand on my stomach. I definitely do not want that during sex. That doesn’t mean that I’m rejecting my husband then.
Great minds think alike, I posted something similar last year and bumped it up in honor of your post today.
https://insanitybytes2.wordpress.com/2015/10/17/its-okay-to-fake-it/
I wrote it in response to an internet conversation where a woman was being pressured into thinking she was a victim of marital rape because she had said yes when she just wasn’t feeling it. It was appalling.
Women are really shamed for being perceived as deceptive, which leaves us in a bit of a bind emotionally. Nobody wants to deceive a husband day after day, but in the course of marital affairs, we all do things we aren’t feeling 100%, like washing dishes and going to work. Often sex can be rather enjoyable after the initial inertia and inconvenience. I’m laughing here, I don’t want any husbands to think that sex is an “inconvenience,” but it does require one to stop what they are doing and focus. That can be difficult for women who often have a million things going on in their lives.
AnnaMS,
I understand exactly where your husband is coming from. When I was married to my first wife more than 20 years ago I felt exactly the same with my first wife and told her basically the same thing your husband did. The problem is your husband is looking at sexual satisfaction from a male perspective and not understanding it from your perspective. For us sex is not satisfying if we do not have an orgasm. But for a woman, it is possible for you to have a pleasurable experience without having an orgasm. You simply enjoy the closeness.
Now I am not saying you or other women don’t want to have orgasms because I am sure you do and should want to! But you don’t consider sex a complete failure if you don’t have an orgasm and from our perspective as men we do.
I also understand him wanting to know what works and what does not. But I think you need to have a gentle conversation with your husband. First tell him how much you love that he does not want you to experience any pain or discomfort as a result of sex. Tell him how much you love that he wants you to have the same pleasure he does during sex. But you need to help him to understand that for you as a woman sex is not dependent on you having an orgasm every time, or even being pain free every time. Tell him you just want to be close to him that way. Let him know that you enjoy sexual closeness and you want it. Tell him it puts additional stress on you for him to ask for a “scorecard” each time after sex, or for him to not want to have sex with you if he knows you are in pain. Reassure him if, if the pain is too bad you will let him know.
But if after having several conversations like this he does not understand how you want to have sex despite the pain, or even if you don’t climax each time, you may have to “fake it”. I don’t think this is wrong as you are doing it for his benefit, not your own. You are doing it out of love for him.
Anna – the is a woman accepting a man’s penis(and his semen) that for you as a woman it is very hard to understand. But I think most any man reading this if he is being honest with his thoughts and feelings(and not what he has been conditioned to say by his church or family) he will tell you what I am saying is true.
The closest thing(and it really is still not an equivalent) that you as a woman might be understand is your breasts. When women are teased because of their breasts(either being too small or two big) it if often a direct assault on their womanhood. I know of a woman who was teased by her family members and then her husband for having small breasts. She had a complex for years until she finally had breast surgery.
Honestly I can tell you from a man’s perspective there is no comparison between you not wanting your stomach touched during sex and his wife feeling uncomfortable with touching her husbands penis or her being grossed out by his semen. That is a grave insult to any man if he is being honest. A lot of men simply have a hard time putting these feelings into words and telling their wives, but I can tell you it is true.
Now just like women can become conditioned to things, men eventually condition themselves to simply suppress their feelings about their wife’s rejection of their manhood. But trust me – what I am saying is true, I have had many men verify this to me.
One more thing on the subject of a woman being completely comfortable with and fully accepting her husbands penis and his semen.
Going back to the analogy I used to a woman’s breasts – did you know most insurance policies cover a woman getting breast implants when she looses them due to cancer? The reason is because we know that psychologically a woman’s sense of femininity is intrinsically linked to her breasts.
In a similar but even deeper link with men, their manhood is directly connected to their penis and their ability to get an erection and the ability to have sex with their wife. This is why many insurance companies cover penile implants and pumps after a men have prostate cancer if they have to have their prostate removed.
Ok, I think I really misunderstood what you meant by a woman’s rejecting her husband’s penis. I thought you were implying that all women needed to love and enjoy giving oral sex to their husbands. For some reason, this is something I (and a fair amount of women both in and out of my family) struggle with. I have been open with my husband about this and we have looked elsewhere for sexual fulfillment both now and in the past when we were struggling with intercourse. Unless he is faking it really well (which he’s not that great at), he is fine with this and does not feel rejected by it. However, I definitely do not have an aversion to his penis in general, and I can totally understand why it would bother a man if his wife was grossed out by his penis in general.
AnnaMS,
Actually Anna you did not misunderstand me. I was alluding to all forms of intimate contact that a wife can have with her husband’s penis, including but certainly not limited to oral sex.
I am going to have to get very descriptive here so I can make my point clear on this. As believers in Christ we should be able to talk about these things and this is the proper venue to do it in.
This is what I was referring to when I said a woman should not reject her husband’s penis or his semen or think that either of them are gross.
1. A woman manually stroking her husband’s penis as a type of foreplay.
2. A woman manually stroking her husband’s penis to the point of him climaxing.
3. A woman giving her husband fellatio(oral sex) as type of foreplay.
4. A woman giving her husband fellatio(oral sex) for him to climax.
5. A woman allowing her husband to ejaculate on her body(as opposed to inside her vagina)
I am willing to bet Anna, that you thought I was just referring to activity number 1.
I realize that the Catholic ladies(Emily and others) have a “get out of jail free card” on this because the Catholic church forbids oral sex and any type of sex where the man’s semen does not end up in the woman’s vagina. The Bible however does not forbid oral sex, but rather gives positive examples of it in marriage. And yes I believe men should do this for their wives as well, and the Bible shows examples of fellatio and cunnilingus. It also does not constrain every sexual encounter to end with the man ejaculating in his wife’s vagina.
Example of fellatio in the Bible:
“As the apple tree among the trees of the wood, so is my beloved among the sons. I sat down under his shadow with great delight, and his fruit was sweet to my taste.” – Song of Solomon 2:3 (KJV)
The apple tree in ancient cultures was often used as a symbol of a man genitals and the implication is clearly seen of a wife longing to kneel in from her husband and perform oral sex on him. His penis and his semen are sweet to her taste.
The churches, both protestant and Catholic for many centuries have had a real hard time with the Song of Solomon. Because of the erotic nature of its language of the physical love between a man and a woman. I have seen quite humorous interpretations by some church leaders who wanted to explain away this passage and many other in the Song of Solomon as speaking to the relationship of Christ and his church, and not sex between a man and woman. But the original recipients of the Song of Solomon understood exactly what this book was – a book demonstrating sexual love between a man and a woman. This is why the Jewish culture did not allow Jewish boys to read the Song of Solomon until they were 13(the age of the beginning of manhood).
The Song of Solomon also alludes to cunnilingus(a man performing oral sex on his wife):
“Until the day break, and the shadows flee away, I will get me to the mountain of myrrh, and to the hill of frankincense.” – Song of Solomon 4:6 (KJV)
The illusions here to “the mountain” and “the hill” refer to a woman’s pubic mound.
This is what frankincense is:
“an aromatic gum resin obtained from an African tree and burned as incense.”
This is what myrhh is:
“a fragrant gum resin obtained from certain trees and used, especially in the Near East, in perfumery, medicines, and incense.”
So what the Song of Solomon is literally saying in this above passage(but in more flowery symbolisms) :
“I want to perform oral sex on my wife all night, the scent and taste of her vagina and the fluids it produces are intoxicating to me.”
I realize that is enough to make any person red faced, but is literally what is the husband saying about what he wants to do with his wife.
Another illusion to cunnilingus(a man performing oral sex on his wife) is found here:
“14 Spikenard and saffron; calamus and cinnamon, with all trees of frankincense; myrrh and aloes, with all the chief spices:
15 A fountain of gardens, a well of living waters, and streams from Lebanon.
16 Awake, O north wind; and come, thou south; blow upon my garden, that the spices thereof may flow out. Let my beloved come into his garden, and eat his pleasant fruits.”
In this passage instead of the husband expressing his desiring to smell and taste his wife’s vagina, the wife is inviting her husband to come into her garden(representing her vagina) – again the we see the references to myrrh and frankincense but now she adds things like cinnamon “Spikenard and saffron; calamus”. The streams and waters flowing in the garden are symbolic a woman’s vagina lubricating in anticipation of her husband coming to “eat his pleasant fruits”.
Anna – with all due respect to my Catholic Christian friends(and even some fellow Protestant Christian friends) the Church(I mean the church fathers who came after the Apostles) truly did a disservice to sex. Both the Church and the heathen world bare blame for making sex into something dirty. Yes the heathen world perverts sex through things like pre-marital sex,orgies, homosexual sex and prostitution. But the Church made even sex within marriage dirty! They made the idea of a husband and wife performing oral sex on one another dirty! The Bible does not hold such of view of these things in marriage. Rather they are gifts to the marriage bed.
I am glad that the Catholic Church and Protestant churches finally left the false ideas that sex was ONLY for procreation and stopped having married couples take vows of celibacy after they had kids. Yes in the early church there after the Apostles died some false teachers came along and actually had married couples take vows of celibacy! That is how much they looked down on God’s gift of sex. They lost the healthy and positive view of the physical side of love in marriage that God designed.
While the Catholic Church and Protestant eventually left some ridiculous ideas about sex behind(like marital celibacy) they did not leave behind all the false teachings of the church(like prohibitions against oral sex and any sexual act that it not procreative in nature).
As to your husband – Yes he is “faking it” really well. I can guarantee you that if you were to tell your husband that God changed your heart on this issue and you freely and willingly wanted to include oral sex as part of your normal sex life(not giving intercourse, but just as an addition) – he would jump at it! By faking in this way he basically is doing what he has asked you not to do, and he not being honest with you. But he does not want to hurt you feelings in the same way you don’t want to hurt his.
But what he he doing is what many men are trained to do – when women act “icky” or uncomfortable about oral sex they just pretend like “oh that’s ok babe, no big deal” But it will always be there in the back of his head for the rest of his life. And yes every time he sees a movie or show that alludes to(even if it does not show) a woman performing oral sex on her husband he will think of it.
What you have done is cut out a certain part of sexuality that God has given to husbands and wives and declared it off bounds. I would strongly encourage you to rethink your position on this. Now I am not advocating for men to force their wives perform oral sex.
Also most men(except for a few strange ones) are like the husband that we showed her from Song of Solomon and would enjoy performing oral sex on their wives.
I realize as a woman, and based on the how you were raised and the culture we live in this all comes as shock to you. But I encourage you to just give it some thought.
This is a really sweet post BGR!!!! I love this one!
Thanks Dragonfly, This post actually was a spin off from another post I was writing – https://biblicalgenderroles.com/2015/10/18/how-a-husband-can-enjoy-sex-that-is-grudgingly-given-by-his-wife/
Let me know what you think on one as well.
BGR,
Ok, that makes more sense. And I should start off by saying that I dont’ have a problem at all with the concept of oral sex (wife to husband or vice versa). I understand some do, but that is not the case for me or my husband. Interestingly enough, both me and my husband started our marriage with some aversion to performing it on the other, and for me, to having him perform it to me.
I actually would have guessed that you were referring to all of them. I do not have a moral problem with any of them, and am physically fine with 1-3 and 5 (although my husband hasn’t shown any desire to do number 5). For some reason, number 4 is really hard for me. 3 was at first, but I have gotten over that. And yes, he was very happy when I sprung that on him, but he is totally fine with my using that as just foreplay as long as we then move on to an eventual orgasm for him (which we always do). I’m honestly not sure if this is just cuz I’m a nurse and have seen so many genitals of both genders with all kinds of STDs and other such yuckiness that the very idea of putting a mouth anywhere near there grosses me out, or if it’s something else.
And I totally agree with you about how we have turned sex into something dirty and gross. I love how my Christian sex counselor put some Christian cultures: “Sex is dirty and gross…save it for the one you love”. It’s so sad really. Part of why sexual refusal is so sad is because it’s damaging to not only the marriage as a whole and the husband, but also the wife too. While he is sorely missing the physical connection, his wife is missing the emotional connection that sex can provide too. It’s a shame so many women don’t seem to notice that they are hurting themselves, too.
Anna,
If you do everything but 4(or are willing to at least) you are far ahead of many Christian wives! Most men are more bothered when a wife won’t do number 3, 2 or 1. Believe it or not there are some women who won’t do number 1!
Just look at 4 as possible future goal. If you can get to that point you get that hat-trick(hockey term).
Anna – I don’t know if I mentioned this before, but my wife was a nurse. She was a nurse for over 15 years and a nurse manager for the last few years of that before she was disabled in a car accident a few years ago. So I am extremely familiar with how nurses think! She used to joke with me that as a nurse(on a urology floor) she has seen more penises than a prostitute!
I think one of the key issues is you have to realize your husband is not one of your patients – he is the man you love. Like I used to tell my wife(in a loving way), you need to leave the hospital at the hospital. But I know that is easier said than done. It is not as if someone is asking you to perform oral sex on a strange man(the way prostitutes do). This you giving yourself utterly and completely to the man you love – completely and wholly embracing every bit of him.
Again I realize this may never happen and you may never get to that point and in no way am I saying your marriage will be a failure if you can never do 4. I am just saying keeping it as goal for someday in the future is not a bad thing to do.
“But for a woman, it is possible for you to have a pleasurable experience without having an orgasm. You simply enjoy the closeness.”
This is so true. I think it’s probably almost impossible for women to orgasm every single time – but I could be wrong and there could be women who somehow do this, but that’s probably not the norm, and even women with fulfilling sex lives admit that it’s completely fine and doesn’t bother them. Women actually do get a lot more out of sex than just a release or orgasm, it’s such an amazing mystery the amount of emotional closeness.
And as far as women rejecting their husband’s semen or penis… yes! I really have heard that a lot. Particularly that the wife didn’t like seeing her husband’s cum because it was somehow gross to her – and yes, it is very sad, that’s not how God created sex to be viewed.
And of course you’re right on the oral sex and cumming on her body, her swallowing, etc. All this is fine, but of course a husband who cares about his wife won’t push any of this on her if she displays a turn off to it.
DragonFly,
One other thing I meant to add on the whole Romans 14 issue – this is why while I will speak strongly on what I believe our freedom is in Christ, I do still do respect when my Catholic friends(like Emily and Kathy) see it differently because for them Church tradition and interpretation is just as authoritative as the Bible. That is why I offered Emily the alternative of mutual masturbation as foreplay to sex in marriage that maybe she could learn things about herself that way without violating her conscious.
First.. I should say I definitely think that a wife should fake it. I don’t think pretending is the same as lying, anyway.
But on the other issue.. I don’t think Catholics have made sex something dirty or shameful. Within marriage it’s beautiful. Actually, we perhaps hold it to be of higher value than you guys give it, because sex is the act from which God gives us children. Oral sex, and worst things like anal sex.., makes it into something else entirely, just like sex outside of marriage makes it something else.
Anyway.. I’ve given oral sex and I dont mind it but I don’t think its necessary to do in to have a good sexual relationship
Hold on…. You’re basically saying that lying, which is an abomination in the eyes of God, is totally fine if you need to stroke your husband’s sexual ego? First of all, encouraging a wife to lie to please her husband tells her to make her husband her idol and her god. Secondly, God created both men and women to enjoy sex and to please each other equally. How can you become one flesh if you do not share sexual intimacy equally? Thirdly, women are not meant to play the role of unfeeling sex toys to be used at the whim of their husbands regardless of their feelings or needs. 1 Corinthians 13 says that love does not seek it’s own- love is not selfish. And the Bible commands men to love their wives and Christ loved the church and gave Himself up for her (dying a horrible death on the cross before she even knew she needed salvation). Lastly, a woman who does not give express consent to have sex but is coerced, bribed, threatened or forced to do it is a victim of rape. And yes, it is possible for a husband to rape his wife (and vice versa). This view of marriage warps both the man and the woman’s perception of God (who marriage is supposed to lead both parties to) by making Him seem like a tyrant, a ruler with a “quid pro quo” policy who forces us to do His Will instead of allowing us to willingly serve Him out of the love we have for him.
Tatiana,
Your statement:
My response:
I showed you two incidences in the Bible that PROVE that lying is not always wrong and when it is not wrong. You question is answered by the example of the Hebrew Midwives and the Rahab who deception in both cases are held to the highest level and honored by God.
Your statement:
My response:
Amen Tatiana! God did create sex for men and women to enjoy and please each other equally! Don’t you think it is a shame that some women don’t want to enjoy the gift of sex God gave to their marriage with their husbands? Don’t you think it is a shame that some women look at sex as chore to do with their husband? Instead of a privilege and blessing that God has given them?
You statement:
My Response:
Amen again! I agree women are not meant to play the role of unfeeling sex toys. Rather they are meant to play the role of a sexual lover to their husbands and he a sexual lover to them. No man wants to have sex with a lifeless woman. He wants her to be engaged and emotionally taking pleasure in him giving her pleasure. So did God say somewhere in Scripture that if a wife does not feel like having sex she can deny her husband? I don’t find that in the Scripture. In fact what I find is when God speaks of sex he says this wives and husband are not to “Defraud ye not one the other”, or “deprive one another” (I Corinthians 7:5). He does not say “Feel free to deprive you husbands whenever you do not feel like having sex.” That is the exact opposite of the Bible teaches. It does not allow women to be selfish by withholding their bodies from their husbands.
Seeking sex with one’s wife is not selfish. God encourages men to seek sex with their wives:
“Let thy fountain be blessed: and rejoice with the wife of thy youth. Let her be as the loving hind and pleasant roe; let her breasts satisfy thee at all times; and be thou ravished always with her love.” – Proverbs 5:18-19 (KJV)
Your statement:
My Response:
Tatiana – why did Christ sacrifice himself? It tell us how a husband is to sacrifice himself and the reason for it. Husbands are to sacrifice themselves for their wives as Christ did for his church so “that it should be holy”(Ephesians 5:27). Did he sacrifice himself to enable the sinful behavior of his church? Absolutely not! He tells his bride(his churches) in Revelation 3 after rebuking 6 out of 7 churches that he is rebuking his bride because he loves her!
“Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent.” A husband who does not rebuke and discipline his wife when she is unrepentant sin against God and her place in the home does not love his wife! He is simply avoiding conflict and appeasing sin.
Your statement:
My Response:
I have said on this blog many times, and many other Christian women(some of whom have worked in domestic abuse shelters) have come on here and said it as well. We believe when you say a husband requesting sex, and then rebuking his wife(for refusing for wrong reasons) and perhaps bringing some discipline on her is the same as rape does a HUGE disservice to those who true victims of rape and abuse.
Your statement:
My Response:
Does God insist on the obedience of his people? Was he wrong for insisting on the obedience of Israel as his wife and then Church as his bride to be?
“But this thing commanded I them, saying, Obey my voice, and I will be your God, and ye shall be my people: and walk ye in all the ways that I have commanded you, that it may be well unto you.” – Jeremiah 7:23 (KJV)
What did God do when Jonah refused to obey him? He brought a storm that almost killed him until he surrendered and threw himself overboard. Then God saved him the belly of the fish.
How did God handle his wife Israel’s disobedience? He brought captivity on her to bring her to repentance, but she refused so he eventually had to divorce his wife Israel. He did not stand back holding hands – “well there is nothing I can do, she has to decide to the right thing”, no he brought discipline on his wife Israel!
Yes God wants us to willingly serve him! Amen. He wants us to serve him out of love. But he will discipline his children and his churches when they will not submit in order to bring them to repentance.
“Seeking sex with one’s wife is not selfish.”
I’m starting to believe that all these idiotic claims of rape because she felt pressured or “coerced” are based on this premise that a man shouldn’t be able to seek sex with his own wife. If he he does… he’s selfish. If he tries to remind her of her biblical role and command… he’s selfish. It’s always the man’s fault to these people, never the woman’s.
DragonFly,
You are right. Another way of saying what you have said is. The feminist world and Christians who are influenced by feminism hold a woman’s feelings and emotions to a position of holiness and righteousness. It is ok if she feels like not having sex, that is right. If she feels like having sex, then that is right too. But they apply the double standard to the man – if he feels like having sex, unless his wife also feels like having sex then he is somehow selfish.
If he were a “modern man”, and more mature – the instant his wife turned him down he would have no feelings of hurt or disappointment but he would just have feelings of happiness. We just need to train men to react to their wife’s feelings- which are the standard of holiness and we would all be fine. Don’t you think?
Duty is cuss word for women, but men do have a duty in this perverse world view. Their duty is to follow wherever their wive’s feelings go.
Yes, this is why I’m involved in the Red Pill writing sphere… some of it really is too hostile to women, but a lot of it is saying what you just wrote. No one else is talking about this, and I’ve never seen a blog like yours that goes through what men can actually do (actions) that are biblical that could help them change or cope with this brave new world. That Rollo Tomassi blog is very much into this kind of writing – right now even, he is focusing on a series of “red pill parenting” and how to raise your sons and daughters in a way that they recognize all this and understand how to reject it and cope with it – still managing to live a fulfilling life.
And just curious… maybe you could also do some parenting posts? We’re still in the young children years (our oldest is 5)… how do you or did you combat all the negative influences of the school system, a feminized church, other people friends or family influencing your kids?
Dragonfly,
I have a file I keep where I jot down all my ideas that come to me about future posts and things I want to do. Among those will be posts on helping young women and you men find what I call “Biblical spouses”. It is no longer enough to say “Christian”, because a great many Christians now reject the Bible as telling them how they should structure their marriages and families. Oh they are fine with the Gospel, and things like “don’t steal, don’t murder, ect..” but they are not fine with any of God’s commands that are gender specific or the model of marriage that God has designed. So what we need to teach our young people is to look for “Biblical spouses”, or Bible believing Christians.
I will also be doing as part of this sample dating profiles that young college age students can put online since now almost 1 third of all married couples meet online. I think putting the right things in those profiles and knowing the right questions to ask are critical before you should ever date anyone.
Another principle I will be going into is teaching your children that dating is for marriage, not for fun. If you start going out with someone and find they would not make a good spouse you need to move on, whether they are fun or not.
Also while it is very hard to enforce in our present culture, I believe that dating christian couples should avoid being alone together as much as possible as to avoid temptation. Double dating and being around friends and family at all times should be strongly encouraged by Christian parents.
These and many other things I will be writing about for Christian parents.
Also I think as parents instead having these set devotion times with your kids, we should be taking every opportunity as we see things on television to teach our children about what is right and what is wrong. I realize there is a lot of garbage on TV, but I also find TV to be an excellent teaching tool for my kids. If we are watching a TV show and man mistreats his wife in a way God would not honor I point that out to my kids. In the same way if a woman acts in a feminist way toward her husband I point that out to my kids.
My kids attend public school, but three oldest(the teens) are able to hold their ground because we talk about real life situations all the time and how important God is in every aspect of our life. My boys understand what God expects of them as men, and my daughter knows what God expects of her as a woman.
I hope and pray they will all follow God’s ways as adults, but in the end it will be there decision – I cannot have a real relationship for them with God, all I can do is point the way and they will decide in the end.
This is not to say I have the perfect family, I have a lot of struggles I have had with kids as teens that I might talk about and I can because I am anonymous which gives me that ability to be frank on these things.
Pray that the Lord will lead in this en devour. But I agree with you 100% Dragonfly that it starts at home with us a Christian parents modeling the right behavior for our kids.
Dragonfly,
One other thing you mention above is “coping”. As believers in Christ we have to learn there will always be difficulties in marriage. Divorce is not the answer to every difficulty(and I would say Biblically speaking it is only the answer to a very few things).
So what that leaves us with is sometimes we must confront our spouses sinful behavior(and this confronting looks VERY different from the perspective of the husband as the God ordained authority, and the wife who is under his authority). But other times I believe God calls us to cope with our spouses sinful behavior.
Sometimes it may not be sinful things we are coping with. It might just be health issues or our past. When a woman does not desire sex or has to fake it all the time, this is something she has to cope with. Perhaps she can make it better by looking inward, but maybe it won’t get better. Sometimes a husband has to cope with a wife who has “star fish” sex with him most of the time, again this is something as believing us husbands that we must learn to cope with.
One thing I will say on Rollo Tomassi – I have read some articles on this blog and he does make some good points. I just don’t always agree with his approach or attitude toward women. I realize those who hate the Biblical stances I take here against feminism may see little to no difference between my blog and Rollo’s but I think people like you can see the distinction.
Dragonfly, I’d like to quickly interject here, since you brought up the ‘red pill’ world. I’ve also looked up and argued with some of these ‘red pill’ guys both on the ‘manosphere’ and in real life. And their response… honestly, I don’t think I’ve ever had that much hatred and abuse directed towards me in my life as I did when I argued with them. Maybe they are the products of extreme feminism, but anyway they are the definition of misogynists. They love to paint all women with the same brush.
And Larry, I don’t think you are at all like them. While sometimes your message is slightly similar, I don’t think what you say is at all influenced by hatred, irrational logic and anger at women.
“Example of fellatio in the Bible:
““As the apple tree among the trees of the wood, so is my beloved among the sons. I sat down under his shadow with great delight, and his fruit was sweet to my taste.’ – Song of Solomon 2:3 (KJV)”
“The Song of Solomon also alludes to cunnilingus(a man performing oral sex on his wife):
““Until the day break, and the shadows flee away, I will get me to the mountain of myrrh, and to the hill of frankincense.” – Song of Solomon 4:6 (KJV)”
To get such an understanding from these quotations one must have a preconception that oral sodomy is acceptable, even pleasing to God.
I have been reading and studying the Bible for over 60 years. I never had any instruction or allusions by parents, church teachers or anyone else until recent years that the Song is about oral sodomy, anal sodomy or any other perverse sexual practices. In the many times I have read the Song, I never took or got the slightest hint that the Song was promoting sodomy of any kind.
I refer to sexual perversions as “sodomy” because that, or Greek or Latin equivalents, are what virtually all Christendom called them for most of the last 2,000 years.
Gerry,
The history of the Song of Songs has always been one of controversy. While in its early days it was correctly interpreted as a literal erotic love poem(and thus why Jewish boys could not read it till they came of age) in later centuries Jewish leadership became opposed to the the literal(and therefore sexual) interpretation of it and decided it it could only be interpreted allegorically as speaking to the relationship between God and his wife Israel if it were to remain in the Jewish Scriptures. Some Jewish Rabbis still forbade the reading of the Song of Songs in public settings. The early church fathers took the same approach and refused to interpret it literally because of its sexual overtones which they could not accept. So they interpreted it allegorically as well as the relationship between Christ and his Church.
There was a notable acceptation of a early Church father Theodore of Mopsuestia (A.D. 350-428) who saw the Song of Songs could not be interpreted any other way except literally as an erotic love poem. He was condemned by the Church and most of his writings destroyed – we only have fragments left today. Some church fathers felt if the Song of Songs were interpreted literally it would not belong in the Holy Scriptures.
So Gerry you are right that for 2000 years until this last century the Song of Songs passages I have shown were never interpreted to be talking about oral sex. But you know why? Because the entire book was interpreted as not talking about sex at all(because they could not accept that it actually was). So why would they bother to explore the sexual symbolisms if they believed none existed? This why only now are we able to restore the literal understanding of this wonderful peace of Scripture almost 3000 years after it was written.
The problem Gerry is this. While the Jewish scribes and leaders, as well as early church fathers most opposed a literal interpretation of the Song of Songs as an erotic love poem – their judgement was not infallible. Only the Word of God is infallible, not those who come later and interpret it(myself included). We know for a fact that Jesus contradicted many of the Jewish leaders interpretations of the Old Testament and that tells us it is entirely possible that they were wrong in their later allegorical approach to(even though the earliest understandings were a more literal approach).
It is unfortunate Gerry that the Jewish leaders, as well as Christian fathers who came after the Apostles wrongly interpreted the Song of Songs as many modern scholars today believe they did. But they were only human, and so are we. We must make our best judgement about it. I believe if oral sex were wrong – God would have clearly and unequivocally condemned it in his Word and he clearly condemned other sexual practices such as bestiality, homosexuality and orgies but he did no such thing with oral sex.
Marabel Morgan taught seminars for wives and wrote a best selling book, The Total Woman. Her number one rule for wives when having sex with their husbands:
“Always keep your hands moving.”
A magazine review from 1975:
http://www.people.com/people/archive/article/0,,20065122,00.html
I think that you’re halfway to the right idea. You’re right about women needing to familiarize themselves with their bodies through masturbation and figure out some things that feel good for them so that they can guide their husbands, but you’re giving wives advice that is going to make it very hard for them to fully be able to teach their husbands how to actually please them. Basically, you’re telling them to fake it, which is going to mislead their husbands and make them think that what they’re doing is what they need to do to make their wives feel good and give them orgasms. Wives can’t be honest and upfront about what they want and figure themselves out while also pretending that they’re getting physical pleasure from acts that don’t feel good to them.
You bring up the example of the majority of women having trouble from climaxing through vaginal penetration alone. Now, if that’s most wives–and studies say that it is, although I do sometimes wonder, based on recent studies that show how the clitoris actually works, if more women could climax more regularly from vaginal penetration if they and their husbands were more willing to experiment with different positions, angles, and rhythms–pretending to orgasm from vaginal penetration alone is going to make it hard for them actually get orgasms because their husbands will mistakenly believe that vaginal penetration is enough for them. In those cases, shouldn’t husbands accept that vaginal penetration alone usually doesn’t do it for their wives, and they have to get her off orally or manually before or after sex or stimulate her clitoris manually while penetrating her vaginally? And shouldn’t they realize that a) it’s most likely not their fault that their wives don’t come regularly from vaginal penetration because it’s more difficult to reach orgasm that way, even though it does feel good and b) it doesn’t matter how their wives get to orgasm as long as they do?
While women masturbating can figure out a lot about what makes them feel good, it’s still going to feel different when their husbands are fingering them or giving them oral sex or penetrating them with their penises. So, figuring out what it is that their husbands are doing that makes them feel good is going to require some experimentation during sex (not masturbation) and some honest feedback. Also, “honest” should not be read as harsh or mean or even critical. By that, I simply mean that wives should provide enthusiastic feedback when something works well and that they should be honest in a gentle way when something that their husbands are doing in an effort to please them physically doesn’t work.
I should note that I’m not talking about cases where husbands really enjoy a certain position or sex act that doesn’t work as well for their wives and where the wives do it because they enjoy pleasing their husbands. Mutually satisfying sexual relationships are about giving some and taking some. Some things are going to more stimulating for the husbands than the wives, and certain things are going to be more stimulating for the wives than the husbands, and that’s okay. They can trade off and make sure that each person is physically satisfied. I’m talking about cases where the husbands are specifically doing something in an effort to please their wives and it’s not working. Would you seriously suggest that husbands not tell their wives when they’re doing something that isn’t working during blow jobs or hand jobs? If not, then shouldn’t wives also be able to tell their husbands when what they’re doing while fingering or giving oral sex isn’t working?
Finally, you keep saying that women as a whole don’t need orgasms to feel satisfied during sex. I think that that’s pretty bad advice to give to husbands, who should each ask their own wives how they feel about orgasming. Furthermore, it’s honestly a declaration that shames women for wanting to climax too and that condones men being sexually selfish lovers. You say that you’re not encouraging men to be sexually selfish, but your advice in this article really does promote that.
co·erce/kōˈərs/
verb
persuade (an unwilling person) to do something by using force or threats.
Coercing someone is wrong
Not fulfilling biblical obligation and duty to provide your husband (or wife) sex when they desire it is wrong according the Bible.
Yeah but you dont have to coerce them, thats all i was saying. If you have to force or threat your spouse to have sex with you then something is clearly wrong.
BGR is not talking about forcing wives to have sex, and he’s not telling men to outright threatening them… he’s simply establishing consequences for the choices a wife makes regarding sex – reasonable ones for sinful behavior. It’s biblically correct and let’s husband’s take back a little control that the wife has and always abuses.
But in a post you stated that ” I’m stating to believe that all these idiotic claims of rape because she felt pressured or ‘coerced’ are based on this premise that man shouldn’t be able to seek sex with his own wife”
Um coercing is define as forcing or threating an unwilling individual to do something that they do not want to do.
Now i have no issue with sex within marriage and yes husbands and wives are suppose to do their marriage duties but if a husband has to “coerce” ( force/threaten) his wife then yes it is wrong. If i coerce you to rob a bank would i be wrong or right? If someone coerce you to take off your clothes so they could do sick things to you would they be wrong?
Rape is a type of sexual assault usually involving sexual intercourse or other forms of sexual penetration perpetrated against a person without that person’s consent. The act may be carried out by physical force, coercion, abuse of authority or against a person who is incapable of valid consent, such as one who is unconscious, incapacitated, or below the legal age of consent.
Rape as state in the definition above may be carried out by physical force,COERCION, abuse of authority or incapable of given valid consent.
So as I stated before coercion is wrong and that is all i was trying to say.
Basically Childofra, Christian women use the fact that they feel at all “pressured” to have sex with their husbands when they don’t feel like it, to mean that they are “coerced” into it. Christian couples have that duty to each other though, so they actually *should* feel pressured to have sex with each other when one of them wants to, even if the other doesn’t. That is the whole basis of the scripture surrounding the issue… that they *should* feel pressured (or “coerced”).
And equating a Christian couple feeling pressured to have sex with each other (their definition of “coercion”) to violence or a man threatening you to take off all your clothes to do sick things to you is not a good analogy at all.
ChildofRa,
Let me get a little into my personal life to illustrate how I stopped the sexual denial in my marriage.
You can call it coercion, I call it call it discipline.
Here is noun definition of discipline:
“the practice of training people to obey rules or a code of behavior, using punishment to correct disobedience.”
Here is the verb definition of discipline:
“train (someone) to obey rules or a code of behavior, using punishment to correct disobedience.”
The Bible uses the concept of discipline in both the verb and noun sense of the word.
Christ said this of his churches that collectively make up his bride:
“Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest and repent.” – Revelation 3:19 (NIV)
Paul said this on behalf of Christ to his Church in Corinth:
“What do you prefer? Shall I come to you with a rod of discipline, or shall I come in love and with a gentle spirit?” – I Corinthians 4:21 (NIV)
Just as God sometimes gently prods his bride when she is cooperative, and other times he has to use discipline so too we as husbands must use this combination approach with our wives. Certainly we always approach our wives gently and we talk about these issues. But if a woman’s behavior does not change then discipline is required.
I realize that you and many others(even many Christians) reject the idea that a wife can be disciplined by her husband, but we simply disagree. I believe that God not only gives us the power to discipline our wives – he calls us to do it. To do nothing is to enable sin.
Let me give you an example with my 3 teens and their grades.
I use a combination of rewards and discipline. If they get all As and Bs on their report card they get $50.00. If they get Cs and pass nothing happens. If they get grades below Cs or do not pass a class or in jeopardy of failing classes I begin to remove privileges like letting them go to their friends, perhaps taking cell phones or their laptops.
Few people would say I am using coercion with my children, but rather I am using discipline to prod them toward the right behavior. Ultimately the choice is theirs, but they will face the consequences(either negative or positive) of their decisions.
With my wife she knows if she outright denies me for a long length of time, or if she chronically denies me where she only intermittently has sex with me on she sees fit I will take her to my Pastor and his wife. If nothing changes my next call will be to a divorce attorney. I don’t have to threaten her on a daily basis, a weekly basis or monthly basis. It never needs to be said – I just made it clear to her one time a while back and she knows where I stand.
Now as far as the quality of our sex life, and her having a good attitude about sex and putting in a good effort(not just giving it with a bad or unenthusiastic attitude) I use different means. If she pleases me in the bedroom then we go on more dates and we do the weekend getaways(when we can afford it). Her birthday present maybe much more expensive if she has does things I like or wears lingerie. If she does not put in a good effort in the bedroom, but simply “phones it in” I would still get her a birthday present, or valentines flowers, or Christmas present but there will be a direct impact on how much I spend. On top of all that just how much time I spend with her on a weekly basis may depend on how responsive she is to me.
I do believe that I need to spend time and talk to her on a weekly basis no matter what she does. But I can add more time when I see she is being enthusiastic toward meeting my needs. So on those 5 or 6 times a year that she is absolutely fabulous in the bedroom I will give her more my time and financial resources to help her understand that correlation, but then she slips back into her old patterns and I will pull back a bit on this.
Again this is not being vindictive, it is discipline and correlation.
If you think this amounts to coercion and rape I can’t really help you ChildOfRa. This is what I believe to be morally and Biblically right behavior of a husband toward his wife.
One other thing your examples getting someone to rob a bank or take off their clothes and do “sick things” are both immoral and wrong activities from a Biblical perspective. But the Scriptures never say it is wrong to use threats of punishments to get someone to stop doing something that is immoral and to get them to do the right thing. God does it all the time in the Bible! Do what is right and he will bless you, do what is wrong and he will discipline you to bring back to right behavior.
Those are not force or threats though. Coercion is force or threats to get an unwilling individual to do something. Taking away a kids cellphone or not giving your wife a birthday present is not a threat.
I feel like you and dragonfly are not understanding what I am saying. Force and threats which is what coercion is is wrong and a form of rape – what you do with your wife is not coercion. Now if you doing something more along the lines if lets say if your wife doesnt have sex with you then you lock her in the closet or something like or if she says no and you push her on the bed and force yourself on top of her while she is telling you no then thats would be a problem.
Like i am trying to explain myself as simple as i can
ChildOfRa,
Let me be equally clear with you. I have never EVER advocated for a man to physically discipline his wife in any way. I would never tell a man to force himself on his wife. I would never tell a man it is right to put his wife in a closet or lock her in a room. My wife is free to leave my house at any time if she does not like it. I have told her “there’s the door” plenty of times. My wife is not, nor should any man’s wife be a prisoner.
Our wives have a choice. Live in our home, live in our marriage together, have the companionship and financial and other resources our relationship offers. Enjoy having someone to help parent your children. Enjoy trips and dates that are available if you do what is right. The choice is theirs to make. But they don’t get to have their cake and eat it too. They don’t get to deny their husbands sexually or disrespect or disobey their husband(like in finances) without consequences.
Have I made my position clear?
Yes, i get what you are saying but do you understand what I am saying about coercion?