This article has been updated and migrated to my new blog, Biblicalsexology.com, dedicated exclusively to the topic of sexuality from a Biblical perspective. You can find the new article here.
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Biblical Gender Roles 
Alex,
I think Deep Strength is trying to step in both our ponds for lack of a better word.
But this is about far more than someone having the desire for sex turned off. It is very much and even more importantly about how a person gets there desire for sex turned on. A woman does not have do a thing to turn a man on(for 80 percent of guys). If she is beautiful according to his preferences that is it. He is ready to go. What I just said about men CANNOT be equally said of women.
Your own statement proves it – “I do agree that most women will lose interest in sex if their husbands don’t maintain any emotional relationship with them.” Men don’t want their wife to sit around and spend time with them and talk about their days and feelings and cuddle to have sex – the vast majority women do want this from their husband before he tries to have sex. And again it assumes the wife has the desire for sex but wants him to do these things first. The fact is many women want men to do all these things and then not always want sex – it is like some way of the guy proving he truly loves her. Women setup tests for their men like this all the time.
I know we could go round and round about this but I will leave my final thoughts on this thread here and let you have the final word.
Yes – men and women both want sex from an emotional and physical perspective.
But most men primarily want sex from a physical perspective and only care about the emotions DURING sex – as in seeing the woman they are having sex with show her desire and happiness from what he is doing.
Most women want sex primarily from an emotional perspective with their physical desire and enjoyment of sex being DIRECTLY tied to their emotional feelings toward the man in question. Most women care about emotional preconditions and connections before sex, emotional intimacy during sex and emotional intimacy directly after sex.
Most women do NOT have or desire sex simply for the sake of sex while most men DO desire sex simply for the sake of sex.
Do many women have sex with a man with no emotional preconditions yet hope to make the man love them by giving sex? You bet. The old adage “men give love to get sex and women give sex to get love” is absolutely a true statement and reflected today as well as throughout history.
And finally I used the term “most” a lot in this concluding statement. That means I acknowledge that there might be perhaps as high as 20 percent of women that are very much like most men and they want sex simply for the sake of sex with no need for the emotional pre or post conditions for sex. This is it for me on this particular thread.
I’ve said my part, and it’s probably best if we wrap this up. Lol.
@BGR,
“Man is God’s direct image bearer and woman is God’s indirect image bearer because of her shared human nature with man from whom she was made.”
I am seriously asking; would it be more accurate, more direct to say the following?
Man is God’s direct image bearer and woman is man’s direct image bearer because of her shared human nature with man from whom she was made.
The enemy always tries to divide and destroy, with lies and mistruth. This is why staying close to the Word of God is so important. The lie is that men and women are the same and are interchangeable. Of course the Word has truth concerning this:
NASB Gen 1:27 – God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; [b]male and female He created them.[/b]
Differentiated right here: male and female He created them. He also identifies here that [b]man[/b] was created in His own image, and solidifies that by following it up with: in the image of God He created [b]him[/b].
Many translations have sought to change the meaning here by replacing man with mankind and him with them, but 1 Cor 11:7 covers this in a bulletproof way that is much more difficult to alter:
NASB 1 Cor 11:7 – For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man.
This directly identifies that man IS the image and glory of God as Gen 1:27 indicated before many translators altered it, and that woman IS the glory of man. This is logical as woman was made from man and not in the same way Adam was made. It is also logical given that Eve was made at a different time than Adam.
Adam was created for God, and Eve was created for Adam. As hard as this truth is to swallow for many, it is the truth.
With all that said, many would assume the implications of this are a bad thing for women. The truth is that men can be blessed, and it is the Lord’s plan that women are blessed too! This is how He operates!! Both men and women are worth much more than sparrows! We as humans need to get past ourselves and learn to appreciate and have gratitude for the grand position He has given to us in His plans! There is nothing more important than this, and this is core to getting things right. We should never forget that the fall was caused by an attempt to be equal with God. This will always be a mistake, and it will always be evil. We need to remember we have a God that washed our feet, who loves us, and who is always working things for good for those who love Him.
So what should we take from the biblical truth above? Accept the blessing of what He made you to be with gratitude whether you are male or female. If you are a man, be honored that the Lord shared His image with you and do all you can to glorify Him by reflecting the gift of His image to others via a good heart and good deeds. If you are a woman, be honored that the Lord made you with a purpose and you have an esteemed position in His grand plans. Be a daughter of Sarah and adorn yourself with good deeds and obey His word by submitting to your husband and showing him honor. Be a crown upon your husband’s head as you were designed to be!
I have to exclaim praise for your Scriptural accuracy and boldness, BGR, and the excellent written form with which you comprehensively communicate godly masculinity. As a man who fully embraces the masculinity God gave him (and the resistance it entails in our culture, against which I stand firm), this blog is a site for sore eyes in a place so pathetically feminized it makes me gag (on a side note, however, the challenge should simply rouse the masculinity in a godly man of integrity, so as not to weary him of the incessant nonsense).
I have only one issue (unless I am misreading you) over all the posts I have read from you on the subject of godly male sexuality. That is the issue of *broad* sexualization, extending even outside of marriage. Your exhortions are indisputable in regards to the wife’s duties, as the Scripture plainty delineates them. However, Jesus was also explicitly clear that to look at another woman with lust is to commit adultery (Matthew 5:28), something God hates to death (literally). Also, one of the most godly examples of men we have in the Scriptures, Job, declared in reverence of God’s righteousness: “I have made a covenant with my eyes: Why then should I look upon a young woman?” (Job 31:1)
It is clear he means women not his wife (against whom such a covenant would be ungodly and nonsensical to make). So what are you suggesting here in this regard? Am I diverging from what you intended to convey, or are you saying that man’s broad lust would be acceptable?
That being said, I appreciate and highly commended the ministry you are engaged in here. For whatever reason, it takes men great courage to resist sinful women in this culture, and I am pleased to see you making so formidable a stand.
Gary,
Your Statement:
I agree that men should not look at women with what lust – but what is lust? That is the key question. And no you cannot use the English dictionary – you have to let the Bible define what the lust is.
There is good desire and bad desire in the Bible. The actual greek words for “desire” can be good desire or bad desire depending on what is being desired. Paul says this in Romans 7:7:
So we can see from Romans 7:7 that both Epithumia and Epithumeo when used in the negative sense are referring to coveting and the Scriptures point us back to the 10th commandment.
So what is the context of lust which is coveting? Is it wrong to find a house desirable? No. Is it wrong to find an ox desirable? No. Is it wrong to find someone of the opposite sex sexually desirable no? It is when we covet – when we desire to possess someone or something unlawfully that we have coveted or lusted.
So my position is this. Is it a sinful desire for a man to find a woman sexually desirable? No sir – in fact God designed us to do just. God also gave us an imagination and we can think about sex with various women – sexual fantasy is NOT what Christ was talking about. He was talking about lust which is covetousness and covetousness is the an evil desire – the desire to possess something unlawfully. Before a man every commits fornication or adultery(a form of fornication) he first coveted(lusted) and desire to seduce her into having sex with him outside of marriage. Covetousness precedes all forms of theft including fornication and adultery.
You can read more on my position in these articles:
https://biblicalgenderroles.com/what-is-lust/
https://biblicalgenderroles.com/2015/10/14/why-does-the-kjv-render-romans-77-as-lust-and-covet/
@BGR
Except there is a massive difference between recognizing that someone is desirable, and entertaining that desire unlawfully in our hearts. When you say it is the desire to possess something unlawfully, that is precisely my point, that desiring a woman sexually when it would be unlawful for us to engage sexually with her is sinful; you are desiring her for a purpose you could not rightfully have her.
If we are married, then engaging in sexual activity outside of our marriage is adultery. That is why Jesus said, “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery. But I tell you that anyone who *looks* at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart.” (Matthew 5:27-28) He was expanding upon the people’s previous understanding not to engage is sexual activity with one to whom they are not married, and saying to even desire in your heart to do so is adultery. Sexually desiring a woman who we would *not* have the right to have sex with is to simply entertain the sin in the secret place of our hearts; it is to covertly take possession of that which is not ours, which is coveting which is lusting. That is why Job said what he said in Job 31:1.
“For you know what instructions we gave you by the authority of the Lord Jesus. It is God’s will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; that each of you should learn to control your own body in a way that is holy and honorable, not in passionate lust like the pagans, who do not know God.” (1 Thessalonians 4:3-5)
Gary,
Let me ask you a few scenarios to help you understand my position better. Remember that Romans 7:7 tells us that Lust is covetousness and it points directly back to the 10th commandment.
In that commandment God tells men to not lust after or covet(because lust and covet are the same) a variety of different things people can possess. One of those things is a house.
Scenario 1
My neighbor has a huge house with a much bigger family room for entertaining and his master bedroom even has a full bath and shower. He even has a two car attached garage! Now on my current income for foreseeable income I could never afford that house. Would it be wrong for me to dream of one day owning that house? Yes, realistically I will never be able to afford it or perhaps he will never move. But I maybe I might get a much bigger job, get an inheritance or win the lottery and maybe he might move and sell it to me. Is my desire toward his house sinful? No. Now if I entertain fantasies of how I might obtain his house unlawfully perhaps by murdering him ans assuming his identity or robbing a bank so can afford to offer him an obscene amount of money so he will sell it me then those thoughts of desire are now lust or covetousness.
Scenario 2
Another possession that God tell us not to covet in the 10th commandment is an Ox. An ox was often used for pulling carts or helping to till the fields. So I am going to equate an ox to our modern pick up truck. My neighbor might have a beautiful brand new pickup truck that he uses to pull all sorts of things. I just love it. I have an old truck but will never be able to afford a new truck based on my income. If I imagine myself driving his new truck down the road or pulling all sorts of things is that a sin? No. If I know where he hangs his keys for in his kitchen and I entertain thoughts of going over there when he is out in his other car and taking he truck for a ride is that sin? Yes. Because that is not entertaining thoughts of unlawfully possessing his truck.
Now lets look at your first statement:
Below is what I believe your position is as I know well from the Churches I grew up in.
If you can’t realistically possess something or someone – then you have no business entertaining thoughts or fantasies of what it would be like to use or possess that something or someone.
Am I correct that this is your thinking?
If I were to translate into the sexual arena many Church leaders would teach it is OK for a young single man to entertain what it would be like to have sex with a woman he is dating her because there is a realistic possibility that he could marry her. So such thoughts are not unlawful to entertain in their view. But if a married man entertains sexual thoughts about a woman not his wife then his entertaining of such thoughts are sinful because he could never realistically possess her.
There are several problems with these common teachings of by Christian teachers.
The first problem is the Bible NEVER EVER says it is wrong or lust or covetousness to entertain thoughts of using or possessing something that we might not have a realistic possibility of using or possessing whether that is a man’s house, his ox, his wife or his daughter.
The second problem from the masculine perspective is that the Bible does not condemn polygamy and actually allows it and blesses it but that is a larger discussion that I have plenty of articles on here. So if you want to have that discussion you can find those articles, read them and comment there(please).
Even if the Bible did not allow polygamy(which I show on this site with the Scriptures that it does) it still is not wrong to fantasize about simply using or possessing a house, a car or a woman. It is when we fantasize about stealing these things(unlawfully possessing or using them) then entertaining such thoughts becomes sinful.
The Bible condemns covetousness which is the desire to unlawfully use or possess something – covetousness always proceeds theft(and adultery is a form of theft).
Another way to put this pivotal Biblical truth is this:
The Bible does not equate imagination in and of itself with lust or covetousness. It equates evil imagination, or imagining things which would be sinful to do with lust or covetousness. It is not evil to imagine having sex with a woman whether we are married or single or whether she is married or single. It is evil to imagine convincing a woman to fornicate with your or commit adultery with you.
Gary,
Your Statement:
Sexual relations between a man and woman are reserved for marriage. On that we agree 100% based on Hebrews 13:4 and other Bible passages.
Sexual relations require two persons interacting with one another – you can’t have sexual relations with a picture or a fantasy as picture or fantasy is not a living person. Sexual relations are not restricted to intercourse – but they would involve any way that a man and woman sexually relate to one another. That could include web caming, phone sex or a variety of other ways a man and woman could sexually relate to one another.
But sexual relations between a man and woman is just one of many sexual activities. It is technically a “sexual activity” if a man has a sexual thought about a woman but this sexual activity is not restricted to marriage. It is technically a “sexual activity” for a man to masturbate but again this sexual activity is not restricted to marriage anywhere in the Scriptures. It is sexual relations, and sexual relations alone that are restricted to marriage.
Your Statement:
You have made a huge leap when you say Christ was saying “even desire in your heart to do so is adultery.” So simply the desire to have a sex with a woman is adultery? No sir. That is no where to be found in the Bible. The key phrase is “lustfully”. If a man looks at a woman lustfully – that means he has the intent in his heart to seduce her into sex outside of marriage – to get her to commit adultery with him. That is what Christ was saying. He was saying to the pharisees that you cannot even entertain thoughts of adultery(getting a woman to cheat on her husband). He was not saying you can’t entertain thoughts of sex with a woman unless you are single and dating her and have a realistic possibility of marrying her or if you are already married to her.
Your Statement:
Gary – it is NEVER wrong for a man to find a woman sexually desirable or even for him to entertain thoughts of what it would be like to have sex with her. It is ALWAYS wrong for him to desire to fornicate or have adultery with a woman. Having sex with a woman, and fornicating with a woman or having adultery with a woman are very different things. One is a holy action(sex) and the other two are taking that holy action and making it unholy by having it outside the context in which God designed it to occur.
Biblical Gender Roles,
Seems you are determined to twist the Scripture on order to defend husbands! Do you realize that husbands are sinners too and men commit adultery and they lust? You are quick to scold wives for their sins, but you excuse husbands. God is sitting high and looking low at all of us. So it might be wise not to go on and on, with your rants to justify men’s sins. Okay BGR?
As a man who owns a website, you hold a lot of power and influence over people, more than you probably realize. After reading all the comments on your website, I conclude that there are some confused and weak people in this world, so be careful what you tell them, as you blame women/wives and excuse or defend husbands/men. Don’t allow your hate/disdain for wives and women, to consume you.
Wives and women, are not the enemy and definitely not the only sinners. Just because God made men first and in His image, doesn’t mean that God doesn’t love and value wives.God allows women/wives, to birth female and male babies into this world. He uses the male sperm and the female egg so that the woman can conceive and give birth to female and male babies. Life is not just men all by themselves. So stop the hate and be Kind to women/ wives.
Just curious, do you have a mother, wife, daughter, or sister? If so, how do you see them? Do you look at them as objects? Is it okay if all other men look those female family members as sexual objects too?
I am confused about something here. You said; ” Men only care about the emotions during sex(that a woman looks like she is having a good time and he is doing his job right) but men care little to nothing about the emotions before or after sex in most cases.” So does this mean men do not ever feel any emotional connection of their own? That the only emotions he is interested in is how he makes his wife feel and the ego boost he gets from that? What about the MAN’S emotions during sex? What feelings do men have during sex? Is it just physical for men with no emotional intimacy at all?
Adrienne,
Your Questions:
First let me put my actual statement here so I can explain it better:
There are two important key distinctions about my statement. First is the word “primarily”. Men do feel emotional connection to women both before and after they have sex with them. Sometimes a man might want to have sex with his wife because of how he feels about her. But other times he might want to have sex with her simply because he needs a physical release or just for sexual pleasure. Now how his wife reacts to his pursuit of her for physical release or sexual pleasure might lead to positive feelings on his part toward her during or after – but it was not initiated because of his emotional attachment to her.
The best way I can distinguish men from women in this regard is in this way. A man could have a horrible day at work and then come home to his wife yelling at him about something he did not do at home that he said he would do. So he is not exactly feeling affection for his wife at this time. Yet if she were to come in front of him and drop her clothes – most men could instantly shift gears and have sex.
Now reverse that situation. If a woman had a bad day at home with the kids, then her husband came home yelling at her for not having dinner ready and then a few minutes later she walks in the bedroom to get something and finds him naked in bed – is she going to be turned on? Is she going to just be able to switch gears and have sex? 95 out of 100 women are give that men the ugliest look in the world and walk out of the room in disgust. For a woman that does not compute.
That Adrienne, is the difference between men and women when it comes to sex and emotions. Again – men and women both have emotions and both desire sex if they are normal – but men are primarily physical beings and emotions are secondary to that – while with women it is the opposite – emotions are the primary driver and the physical is secondary.
@BGR,
I realized that I didn’t make this clear earlier, and I can see how this would affect my perspective. My husband’s never once actually called me stupid, fat, ugly, or lazy in any manner, and I’ve never insulted him in such a manner either in the five years that we’ve been married. (And this is even after our son’s birth summer, and the resulting lack of sleep.) So while we have had “makeup sex” after a disagreement—he prefers to keep yelling and insults out of disagreements, and I respect and recognize of his decision— we’ve never had an experience where one of us badly insulted the other and then tried to immediately initiate sex.
At the same time, men should know that they are provider, protector and procreator objects.
God in his wisdom, created a symbiotic system and both sexes are needed to fulfill his plan.
If you take feelings out of the equation, you can easily see that it’s a functional, common sense value for value trade.
There is no shame in whatever part of the equation we were born to fulfill.