With the revelations of famous men acting badly toward women and the rise of the MeToo# movement we are having a national conversation about the causes of sexual harassment. Some have made a startling accusation that it is the “toxic” system of Christian values which is at the root of this evil behavior. The sad part is many Christians in America have been so indoctrinated by feminism that they would not even recognize that Christian values are being attacked.
In an article he wrote for Inc.com entitled “Yes, We Can Defeat Sexual Harassment in the Workplace. Here Are 6 Powerful Ways to Do It” Marcel Schwantes says the fight against sexual harassment is “about deconstructing false values embedded in toxic systemic thinking”:
“Both men and women of good conscience are fearlessly acknowledging the elephant in the room — the disturbing, age-old trend of men in power taking advantage of their status to prey on women (and other men) working below them.
Therefore, the fight is just as much about deconstructing false values embedded in toxic systemic thinking, and the thinking of sick minds. In the BBC article, Eden King exposes a root cause of sexual harassment: “A belief that women are inferior to men, the belief that men should have power over women,” and, she adds, a belief that “men should be aggressors and women should be gatekeepers.” The process of shifting mindsets doesn’t start in training rooms. King says it should begin in the earliest days of childhood education and development.”
Do Christians believe in “toxic” and “false” values that lead to sexual harassment?
Eden King lists these 4 values that she believes are false and Marcel Schwantes calls “toxic” ways of thinking that actually lead to the sexual harassment of women:
- “A belief that women are inferior to men”
- “the belief that men should have power over women”
- “men should be aggressors”
- “women should be gatekeepers”
So let’s now examine each of these beliefs as to their whether they are true or false and whether they lead to sexual harassment or actually would help to prevent it.
“A belief that women are inferior to men”
“Likewise, ye husbands, dwell with them according to knowledge, giving honour unto the wife, as unto the weaker vessel, and as being heirs together of the grace of life; that your prayers be not hindered.”
I Peter 3:7 (KJV)
Women are equal to men in their humanity as we all have the blood of Adam (both men and women). But women are not equal to men in strength and many other attributes. Women were designed to be weaker than men so that they would need men as mankind needs God. Believing women are inferior to men does not mean we do not honor women. But as the Scriptures tell us we give honor to women as the weaker vessels God designed them to be.
So, this first supposed “false value” is not false based on the Word of God. This means this value that has been held by civilizations even without the Bible for thousands of years is actually a TRUE value and a righteous value. Accepting this truth has not lead most men to prey on women, but rather it leads men to protect women.
“the belief that men should have power over women”
“3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God…
10 For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels.”
I Corinthians 11:3 & 10 (KJV)
The Bible tells that God’s order in this world is God the father is the head of Christ, Christ is the head of man and man is the head of woman and that woman should have a sign of authority or a sign that there is a power over her head which is man.
Again, this second supposed “false value” is not false based on the Word of God. This means this value that has been held by civilizations even without the Bible for thousands of years is actually a TRUE value and a righteous value. Accepting this truth has not lead most men to prey on women, but rather it leads men to desire to lead women.
“men should be aggressors”
“Blessed be the Lord my strength which teacheth my hands to war, and my fingers to fight”
Psalm 144:1 (KJV)
“10 When thou goest forth to war against thine enemies, and the Lord thy God hath delivered them into thine hands, and thou hast taken them captive, 11 And seest among the captives a beautiful woman, and hast a desire unto her, that thou wouldest have her to thy wife; 12 Then thou shalt bring her home to thine house, and she shall shave her head, and pare her nails;
13 And she shall put the raiment of her captivity from off her, and shall remain in thine house, and bewail her father and her mother a full month: and after that thou shalt go in unto her, and be her husband, and she shall be thy wife.”
Deuteronomy 21:10-14 (KJV)
This third supposed “false value” is not false based on the Word of God. The Bible tells us that God has made men aggressive by nature. Man’s aggressive nature when it is used for sinful purposes can cause great destruction and evil. But when man channels his aggressive nature toward godly purposes this helps him to accomplish great things – including taking a wife.
Accepting this truth that men are aggressors or initiators in life is not something that should cause men to harass women or otherwise act badly toward them. Instead this truth that men are aggressors should lead men to channel their aggression into their work so they can be successful in their business endeavors to be able to provide a home for a future wife. It should also cause them to aggressively seek out a godly woman who wants to fulfill her God given purpose as a wife and mother.
“women should be gatekeepers”
“20 But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:
21 Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father’s house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.
22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.”
Deuteronomy 22:20-22 (KJV)
Finally, this fourth supposed “false value” is not false based on the Word of God. The Bible tells us that God has in fact assigned the role of gatekeeper to women regarding their sexual purity. In the Scriptures if a woman lost her virginity before marriage it could relegate her to a life of celibacy and if she hid the loss of her virginity it could cost her life.
While we are no longer under the civil penalties of the Old Testament law – the moral law remains. God has given women a serious and lifelong task to protect their bodies and keep them only for their future or current husbands. Her husband is the only one that she may and in fact must allow through the gate to access the pleasures of her body.
Accepting this truth that women are tasked by God to be gatekeepers of their sexual purity does not excuse men from acting badly toward woman. But this is why God created woman’s sexual nature to be so different than man’s. Men are designed by God to be primarily physically driven toward sex and only secondarily relationally driven. Because of this a man can very easily have sex with a woman regardless of their relational status. But God in his perfect design of woman for man created her with a relational sexual nature that causes her to only desire to give herself to one man and one man only – her husband. She is literally built with a self-protection mechanism that protects her for her man.
Conclusion
I could not agree more with Marcel Schwantes that returning to values would help to greatly reduce sexual harassment in the workplace. However, I completely disagree with him as to what values we need to return to. The values he and Eden King calls “false” and places as the root of the evils of sexual harassment are in fact the values that could greatly reduce the sexual harassment of women if we as a society returned them.
The “values” Schwantes and King believe we should return to do not find their basis in the Word of God, but rather in Second Wave Feminism and the Sexual Revolution which brought us these destructive changes to society:
- Women leaving their gatekeeper role and engaging in extramarital sex
- Women seeking higher education while delaying marriage
- Women putting off having children even after marriage
- Women having financial independence from men
- Women rebelling against their subordinate role in marriage and society
The truth is, it is not Biblical values that have lead us to the sexual harassment crisis our culture finds itself in today, but rather it is the values of Second Wave Feminism and the Sexual Revolution which are the true root of the problem.
Biblical Gender Roles 
It would help if we had a working definition of the term “sexual harassment “. Currently it seems as the term means anything that a male might do that might provoke feelings of awkwardness, regret, discomfort or inner-conflict.
Hello sir. I have to say, I have never read any of your articles, but I was lucky enough to come across this article. First of all I completely agree, Christian values don’t cause sexual harassment. If someone who call’s himself a Christian is harassing a woman and uses Christian values as an excuse, there is something wrong with him, not the bible.
Now I had to comment and questions on a few of your statements. First that women are the “weaker vessel.” I believe they were only referring to a woman’s physical strength. I know for a fact women in general are equal in their intelligence, moral character, and resilience. Women work just as hard as men. How exactly, in your opinion, women unequal to men?
Second. The husband is the head and the wife is the body. That’s poetry right there. It means you are one with your wife not that you are in charge of her. You work together. Neither is independent of the other. Why would you want to be “head” of a perfectly capable, functioning, smart adult anyway?
I think there are a few godly things that could come out of having an aggressive nature. Protecting your wife and children and fighting for your country maybe. However I would call that honorable, not aggressive. I think male behaviors that would be considered aggressive are behaviors such as groping women, hitting women, bullying and getting in fights, and stalking on ex. I know they did things differently back then, but sometimes you have to read the bible as a history book. Ungodly things happened, like capturing and raping women and forcing her to be your wife. The bible often tells things they way the were, not the way the should be. There are much better way’s to find a wife, thank God. I can’t imagine how painful that must have been for those poor women. Do to other’s as you would have them do to you. It’s that simple.
See the whole flaw with calling women “gatekeepers” is it takes two to have sex. A woman can’t lose her virginity by herself. Every time a man sleeps with a woman who isn’t his wife and will never be his wife, he is sinning. Even with your logic it’s a sin because he’s sleeping with another man’s future wife. Men should save sex for marriage as well. It makes no sense to say women should be the only one saving themselves. That’s an absurd double standard. You do recognize that a man sleeping with a woman without having any relationship status is a sin I hope? Also if men are sleeping with women without having a relationship status with them then the women are doing the exact same thing.
Finally explain how second wave feminism leads to sexual harassment please?
Thank you for reading what I have to say. Do not take anything I said as an attack. I sincerely wish you the best as a brother in Christ.
Also please do respond if you can. I am very interested in what you have to say. Again this is not an attack. I am merely stating what I believe. And possibly asking you to examine your belief’s if you would.
Also in case if I didn’t make myself clear enough I am arguing the things you named are not actually Christian doctrines and they do cause sexual harassment. All of the things you named give men an attitude of entitlement and superiority which leads them to believe they can treat women however they want. It leads men to see women as objects and breeding animals they can do whatever they want with. I would be happy to expand on that at another time. Right now I have things to attend to. Thank you for having an open mind. God bless.
Dan,
You asked several questions that I will answer over a couple of different comment threads so one comment won’t go on forever.
ANSWER SET #1
I fully believe that we should all be willing to re-examine our beliefs on a regular basis. That is what is wrong with much of the world today including the Church. We are brought up a certain way in our culture and we never question the values our culture teaches us, our parents teach us or even those values our church teaches us. I believe we should “Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.”(1 Thessalonians 5:21) as the Scriptures admonish us to do.
If what we believe is true then it will continue to be true each time we examine it. And how do we know what is true? As Christians the foundation for what we believe to be true must be the Word of God. Jesus said “Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.”(Matthew 4:4). Paul said of what he and the other Apostles wrote “when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe.”(1 Thessalonians 2:13) and he also stated that “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness”(2 Timothy 3:16).
So with that as the basis for our discussion I encourage you to do the same thing you have encouraged me to do and be willing to re-examine your beliefs based on the Word of God.
Your Question:
I do not deny that women can be just as intelligent as men. In fact IQ studies show that there are more average intelligent women than men. But they also show that men have a wider spread of intelligence levels with more below average intelligence men than women but also more high IQ men than high IQ women.
But the Bible tells us that the feminine nature is more susceptible to being deceived than the masculine nature. This is because women are relational and emotional beings while men are more physically oriented logically based beings. Sin corrupts the feminine nature in different ways than it does man’s masculine nature. It corrupts a woman’s emotional nature into controlling her actions.
Your Question:
While it is absolutely true that the Bible commands a man to love his wife as his own body(Ephesians 5:28-29) the Bible also says that men are in “in charge” of their wives sir. The weight of Scripture on this is overwhelming.
The husband is the head of his wife as Christ is the head of his Church. Is the Church an equal partner with Christ? the Scriptures show that to be false. The Scriptures tell us wives are to be subject to their husbands in “everything” in the same the Church is subject unto Christ in everything.
God commands wives to be in subjection to their husbands – even those who are not obedient to his Word. That means God does require women to follow not only good Christian men of good character – but even men of bad character. As long as the husband does not ask his wife to do something that is sinful before God she is to be obedient to him.
Speaking of masters – do you know that one of the Old Testament words for husband means “master/owner”? Even to be married was for a man to “own a woman”.
Your Question:
No person is perfectly capable and perfectly functioning and not all of us are smart. That goes for men and women. We all have flaws and have weaknesses. But the reason I want to be the head of my wife and every Christian man should want to be the head of his wife is not for some power trip or simply for our own pleasure. We should want to be our wife’s head first and foremost because God commands us as men to be our wife’s head(Ephesians 22-24). God also commands us as flawed and imperfect men to wash our flawed and imperfect wife’s spiritual imperfections as Christ washes his Church’s perfections with the Word of God(Ephesians 5:26-27).
Dan,
Here is the second set of answers to your questions.
ANSWER SET #2
Your Statement:
First it is true that the Bible is a history book and actually it is the only perfect history book there is. But it is far more than just a history book. It is a spiritual book that changes lives. It is a book that reflects the character of God and his plan for humanity. It is more than history – it also contains his commands for our lives.
Also it is absolutely true that some things in the Bible were “descriptive” rather than “perspective” meaning the Bible does describe some horrible and sinful activities of mankind that we should not seek to emulate. But when it does it frames the behavior as evil and horrible and wicked.
However when God commands something it can never be evil and also other activities which are not framed as being evil may rightly be regard as acceptable before God. If an activity is commanded this makes that activity righteous before God – period.
God allowed Israelite men to capture women in war but never to rape them. Deuteronomy 21:10-14 tells is God allowed men to take beautiful women captive. But they had to allow them to mourn their dead relatives for one month and then the man had to take her as his WIFE. She was not some sex slave. This separated Israel from other nations around them who took and raped women and either murdered them or left them for dead. If they did bring them back they did not give them the status of wife but rather that of a sex slave.
So yes you can say it is ungodly for a man to rape a woman – which by Biblical definition is to force a woman who is not your wife to have sex with you. However, if you say it is ungodly for a man to take a woman as a prisoner of war and force her to be his wife and then he has sex with her then you have just called God ungodly which is blasphemy. If you say God did not actually command this when it is clearly in the Bible you have just unraveled the entire authority of the Scriptures.
Your Statement:
What you are describing is what is called “The Golden Rule” as given by Jesus Christ:
When Jesus said this – he had full knowledge of every word he had given through the Prophets before(since he was and is God) and he knew every word he would give to his Apostles during his earthly ministry and after his ascension through the Holy Spirit. God never, ever contradicts himself, therefore Jesus could never contradict anything said in the Old Testament or the New Testament. In fact he says the Golden Rule is completely consistent with “the law and the prophets”.
Therefore in God’s view it men taking women as captives of war and forcing them to be their wives is completely consistent with the Golden Rule. It also means women being placed in subjection to men is completely consistent with the Golden Rule.
The way we as Bible believing Christians understand the Golden Rule is this – it means treat a person as you would like to be treated if you were in their position. It does not mean people have to be treated equally. For instance when I was a child I did not like all the restrictions my parents put on me. I did not like be told to clean the house or pick up the dog poop. I did not like being spanked or grounded. I did not like having my life decisions controlled by may parents. The Golden Rule applies to parents with their children in this way – they should not abuse their children. They should love them as God loves his children.
Dan,
Here is the third set of answers to your questions.
ANSWER SET #3
Your Statement:
I never said it was not a sin for a man to have sex outside of marriage the same way it is for a woman to do so. Proverbs 5:15-22 and many other passages of the Scriptures condemn men for having sex with women who are not their wives. But is not a “flaw” to say that God called women to be the gatekeepers to sex, in fact it is Biblical according to Deuteronomy 22:20-22. While men and women shared an equal penalty(death) for adultery where the man had sex with another man’s wife a man did not share the same penalty with a woman who hid her sexual sin. If a woman hid her loss of virginity and her her husband found it she was put to death. A man may have sinned by having sex with other women but their was no prescribed penalty for this. The reason is because while both acts are sin – God has made women the gatekeepers of sex.
Dan,
Your Statement:
The flaw in the entire basis for your opinions and arguments is that you are basing your morals(what is right and wrong) and your view of men, women, marriage and sexuality on what you have been taught growing up in American culture. You are not basing your beliefs on the Word of God. You cannot call something a “Christian” belief that does not come from the Scriptures and at the same time you cannot call something an unchristian belief that is in fact firmly based in the Word of God.
Your Statement:
The fact is biologically speaking in many ways men are superior to women – that is not an opinion, it is a fact. It is also a fact from the Christian perspective based on the Bible that God has placed men in a superior position over women in a similar way to how he has placed parents in a superior position over children. Biblically speaking men are in fact entitled to have their wives respect and obey them in the same way parents are entitled to have their children respect and obey them.
Your Statement:
Women ARE objects of beauty and pleasure which men seek to acquire and the Bible supports this paradigm and even allows it and calls women the property of men(Deuteronomy 22:20-22). However you are incorrect that believing in the values I have PROVEN are Biblically based leads men to think they can do “whatever they want with” women. The Bible calls on men to honor both their wives(I Peter 3:7) and their mothers(Exodus 20:12). Men commanded by God to free their wives in divorce if they did not properly provide for them(Exodus 21:10-11).
It is the sin nature which causes men to think they can treat women “whatever they want with”, not the Biblical values I proven and defended here.
Christian men in the west love submitting to women, they claim to be leaders yet situations like below occur.
At my church they say that a man who asks for a beer form his wife is sinning….
like if a man’s wife is so proud to get him a beer why do these men think men will follow them regardless?
Opening the eyes of the masses to the truth of Gods plan for Biblical gender roles…… one blog post at a time. Good job!
“the Bible tells us that feminine nature is more susceptible to being deceived than masculine nature.” Is that really what it’s telling us? The bible was not making a statement for all women. You do realize you are talking about two billion people? You can’t just put two billion people inside a box and say “oh you all have breasts, you must be more gullible than me.” You’re are saying women are less logical than men. I have seen nothing to lead me to believe that what you are saying is true. Women are just as logical as men. It is very typical for men to have such a negative view of women’s emotional nature. God gave us emotions. But you have no data or evidence to support your claims. Because Eve, one single woman was deceived, now all women must be foolish and irrational. Because the bible called some women silly now all women are silly? The bible calls some men evil, so does that mean all men are evil?
First of all, you aren’t Christ. God said to love your wife as Christ loves the church but he never actually said you are Christ. This should be fairly obvious I think. Your command was simply to love them like Christ would his church. Christ is not equal with his church. YOU ARE NOT CHRIST. Yes marriage is a reflection of Christ’s relationship with the Church. But the husband is not actually his wife’s saviour. Second it is foolish to not take historical context in mind. There are many reason’s why God may have said that. First , women got married very young at the time. Because women mature quicker than men, it would’ve been very normal for a girl to marry a man who was quit a bit older than her. Men were probably more street smart than women. The world they lived in made it sort of impossible for women to protect themselves, so they needed a man’s protection. She would’ve needed to come under him and take his guidance because he was responsible for her. Second, women’s rights did not exist at the time. Telling a husband to love his wife like he would love himself could’ve been very controversial seeing as women were considered to be property not people. Marriage rape is something that has and does happen. Men saw it as their right to take their wives as they wished. God did not want the husband to rape or beat his wife, but obviously he wanted them to have sex and come together as husband’s and wives should, so wives were not to disdain or reject their husband’s. I am not saying this cannot be applied to today. Wives should be kind, respectful, and loving towards their husbands, and put him first. I do not consider myself to be my wife’s leader and I would never ask her to obey me. She is not my child, she’s my companion. I firmly believe in having an egalitarian marriage. I believe it enhances and enriches are relationship.
I realize women were considered property. But that was their language, not mine. No matter what you want to believe, you don’t “own” any woman over eighteen. That is called slavery and it’s illegal here in America.
Finally I don’t believe any man would want to be the “head” of any woman unless he wanted power and to exploit her weakness and he was to lazy to get into an argument from time to time. But it must be convenient for you to have those bible verses.
I apologize I have only come across that verse once or twice and I was not overly familiar with the context. I was not questioning biblical authority or that the bible is God’s word. I know God has commanded his people to do things which in the past have made me question his goodness. But I know God loved those women and he is near to the weak and broken hearted. If God commanded his people to take women captive, then those women were in God’s hands. I will leave it at that.
It is not consistent with the Golden Rule. If I were an adult woman I would want my husband to see me as an equal. And you would to. If you say otherwise you are lying yourself. Not to mention that, but how could you possibly understand the female experience? You see it the way you want to. Like I said, marriage was a completely different thing back then. But today a thirty year old obeying another thirty year old is just laughable. Imagine if the roles were reversed. Imagine if men were only seen for the ability to impregnate a woman. What if men were the primary caregivers? Wouldn’t you want to have the opportunity to become a doctor or a vet and receive an equal education?
Of course I am glad my parents disciplined me. I wasn’t at the time, but now I am. I can’t imagine how I would’ve turned out if they had never disciplined me. But we are talking about full grown adults. Women don’t need men like children need their parents. It’s a completely different relationship.
It would’ve been much harder to penalize a man because you can’t really prove a man isn’t a virgin for obvious reasons. My wife and I were not virgins when we met. But by what right do I have to cast stones at her when I myself had fallen into sin? I just don’t believe it is right to hold women to a higher standard than you would for yourself. Women sin and make mistakes as well and can also be forgiven. Imagine if I had told her she wasn’t good enough for me because she wasn’t a virgin? Please tell me you see something wrong with that? Don’t you see how hypocritical that is?
The bible also supports the idea of strong women having other roles besides wife and mother. Deborah who judged Israel, Priscilla taught men, and of course Mary Magdalene who was a missionary and a follower of Christ. You call us cherry pickers but you refuse acknowledge the strong women in the bible.
The entire basis of my opinion is that I like women and I respect them, and simple common sense. And if you think we live in a post feminist culture, you are quite mistaken. I didn’t get any of my belief’s from “American culture.” American culture sends just as many destructive message’s to women. Growing up I was taught the same thing you were. God made men to be the leaders, women should be homemakers etc. I grew up in a patriarchal home. Still to this day my mother does everything my father says without any question. I do not agree with how you read the bible.
“biologically speaking in many ways men are superior to women – that is not an opinion, it is a fact” Is it though? I agree men are usually stronger and faster than women, but you underestimate how amazing women’s bodies are. A woman can grow a child inside her body and nurture it with her body. How is that inferior? That is incredible. And I will remind you your masculine strength was given to you by God. He can take it away if he wants. I will remind you that women aren’t children. They are people and they aren’t entitled to obey anyone you aren’t entitled to obey. You are making women out to be something less than human. Women grow up just like men do and can make their own choices just like men.
What on earth makes you think it is okay and biblical to call women objects?????? 1 Peter 3:3-4. The bible says a woman’s worth lies within her. Having a sweet, kind, gentle, warm, quiet spirit. Outward beauty fades away.
The reason your views and your holy sexism cause sexual harassment is because you see women as something less than human. You see women as objects and breeding animals. While you may be intelligent enough and have the common sense to not practice this kind of behavior, young men copy what they see and hear in their parents. Sexism is being ingrained in their minds from a very young age. If they see women as less than men, they are going to act like women are less than men. Sexual harassment and rape culture comes from men being entitled, ruthless and biased. It comes from their sinful nature. Telling men that women have to submit to them and aren’t equal to them only encourages this kind of behavior. Do you really not see that connection? It makes so much sense it is overwhelming. Think about it. If men are taught that women are just objects and that they’re simply nothing more than a brood mare and they have “subordinate roles” and men are being taught that instead of being taught to respect women, don’t you think that would have some impact? It couldn’t make more sense. And you might be teaching your boys to keep their hands to themselves and that it’s not okay to harass a woman, but most boys don’t hear that from their parents. All they hear is “women should submit.” Christianity has been a huge influence on our culture and on gender roles and you are delusional to think otherwise. Sexism is deeply rooted in the misrepresentation of God. Men are often lead to believe that a woman’s role is to serve men, and so they expect satisfaction from women. Teaching men to be aggressive, emotional, and unfeeling only causes him to be callous and belligerent. It also teaches them to be uncaring and unsympathetic towards women. There is clearly a connection.
Typo. I meant to say emotionless.
Dan,
Believe it or not I get comments like yours every day on this blog. They just never make it through mediation because there is only so much time in a day and a week and if I spend time rebutting people like you I am taking away from helping others who truly want to mold their lives after what the Bible says and not what our culture teaches. But occasionally I do let a naysayer through(that is you) so that my readers can understand how to answer the naysayers with the Word of God.
The Bible tells us that there will always be divisions in Christianity between those who want to follow the Word of God and those who want to follow their feelings and their culture.
With that said I will give some final answers to what you said in response as further assistance to my readers in standing against the heresy of feminism that has so poisoned our churches and families in a few different threads so it won’t be too long and don’t bother trying to continue to argue as you have been put on the block list.
Dan – you said that you didn’t get your beliefs from American culture, but your arguments are all classic feminist constructions. I am going to assume you are open minded so I ask the question – how do you reconcile these with the very many indisputable verses that contradict them?
Dan’s Statement:
Actually the Bible was in fact making a statement for all women and it also makes similar statements toward all men. Because sin corrupted our God given masculine and feminine natures men and women struggle with different problems to different degrees. Women struggle with being lead astray by their emotions to greater and lesser degrees. Are there some women that are much more logical than others? Yes. Are there a few exceptional women that are even more logical to the point that they are masculine in their behavior? Sure. But generally speaking women can be deceived by their emotions easier than men.
On the other hand while the sin nature causes women to be more easily deceived by their emotions, the sin nature also causes men to be more easily deceived by women as the Bible says:
Dan’s Statement:
Of course I and no other man is Christ but Christ himself. I and other men are no more Christ than a lamb is Christ. However a lamb symbolizes Christ as the sacrifice for the world:
In same way God created man to image himself and woman to be a weaker image to image man in comparison to God:
Part of imaging God as men is to model the relationship of God to his people. That is why God created woman for man:
So that is why in Ephesians 5 while we recognize we as mortal and sinful men are not God – we symbolize God in modeling the relationship of God to his people in our marriages in the same way that a lamb while not actually being Christ symbolizes Christ’s sacrifice for humanity.
Dan’s Statement:
Actually it was not “their language” but it was and is in fact the Word of God. You can believe that man’s laws trump God’s but I follow God’s laws whenever they conflict with mans.
Dan’s Statement:
You can choose to believe that I and all men who believe in what the Bible says about male headship do so simply to have power over our women(wives and daughters). But the fact is most Christian men want to lead their wives out of faithfulness to God and love for their wives – not for some power trip or to exploit them.
And actually it is not always “convenient” to have to follow God’s commands for my life as a man. In this sin cursed world and especially with having a strong will wife like I do – I have in moments of weakness wished I could just hand the reigns over to her. Sometimes dealing with a contentious wife is just plain exhausting. But that is my charge from God and I will continue to do it as he gives me the grace.
Dan’s Statement:
Did you read your statement here? There are so many contradictions in your statements. You are most definitely questioning Biblical authority. And when you say God’s allowance for taking women captive during war and forcing them to be wives is not consistent with Christ’s Golden Rule which he said was consistent “with the law and Prophets” you have just said the Bible contradicts itself. That is by definition questioning the authority of the Bible.
Dan’s Statement:
Actually if I believed the Bible as I do and I was a woman(and I know many women that do including my mother and my daughter) I would NOT want my husband to see me as his equal. I would recognize that any desire otherwise was part of my sinful nature and not from God. I would recognize that there must be a leader in the family and there must be a follower. Anything with two heads is a freak.
You prove with every word you speak here that your truth is what your culture and life experience teaches you and not what the Word of God teaches.
Dan’s Statement:
Ah here is the “men and women are both adults” argument so often trotted out by Christian feminists. Just because a man and a woman are fully developed(completed puberty) this does not make their natures the same. While a full grown woman is certainly different than a child or teen going through puberty the fact that she has gone into the Postpubescent phase of her life(adulthood) does not make her the same as a man. In fact the only thing adult men and women have in common is that they are both human beings and have completed puberty. After that they are very different creatures with very different strengths and weaknesses. And according to God’s Word he has made woman different than man FOR man so that he may fully play out his role as the image bearer of God.
So yes women do actually need men so that they can fulfill their help meet role which God has given to them(unless they are one of the few women that are chosen to live in celibacy in service to God).
While it is true that the relationship between a husband and his wife is different than between himself and his children there are actually many parallels between the two relationships if you allow the Bible and not culture to determine the relationship between a man and woman in marriage.
Dan’s Statement:
And here you demonstrate for my readers the classic Christian feminist straw-man argument “for people to be treated as human, they must all have equal rights, if one set of persons has less rights than another they are not be treated as human”. That argument is garbage and does not match with the Scriptures or even human history. Just because there are different social castes whether in society or in the Bible does not make someone as being treated less than human. Are children being treated as less than human because they have less rights than men and women? I think not.
I have shown you where the Bible commands that mothers were to be honored(Exodus 20:12) and wives were to be honored as the weaker vessel(I Peter 3:7). I have shown you where God commanded men to provide for their wives(Exodus 21:10-11) and to love their wives as their own bodies and protect them as their own bodies(Ephesians 5:28-29) and I have also demonstrated to the Bible shows there is absolutely no contradiction between men honoring the women in their lives but also men taking headship over their wives and leading, correcting and guiding their wives.
It is the sin nature, and not these Biblical values that causes men to act sinfully toward women.
@Dan
Me suspects you ain’t a man at all but a woman and a feminist to boot. …you let a classic Freudian slip when you referred to yourself in the third person plural when you said “God gave US emotions ”
Oops!!! we caught ya
To be quite honest I’m surprised at BGR’s patience and leniency with you as you spout off your feminist garbage
If you wish to learn the proper biblical role that God has set for women and that role is subservient to men, then by all means peruse BGR’s blogs and material, and learn from him, but don’t you dare try to claim you believe the bible when you don’t
I too have become convinced that Dan is a woman pretending to be a man. I know that some men have drank too much of the feminist cool-aid but that was too far over the top. Some of those declarations could have only come from the emotional, irrational, fairy tale mind of a woman. Dan must be short for Danielle.
@BGR In the first comment to follow the one where you said Dan was blocked, you mis-typed a sentence. Where you cited the 1 Corinthians 11:9 passage, right before you accidentally wrote God created men for women. It should have been the other way around. Otherwise, good replies! 🙂 Keep up the good work.
Tyler,
Thanks for the catch on that! I do that all the time where I reverse it and usually I catch it.
kryptonian51,
On a rare occasion I let one of these people spew there stuff just so my readers can see I what we are facing. These are the kind of people we are going to face at work, in our churches and sadly even in our homes with our own wives sometimes. We must know how to answer these people therefore I think on occasion it is good let one person get through.
The Scriptures are true when it says:
“And a man’s foes shall be they of his own household.”
Matthew 10:36 (KJV)
My inbox and my comments box is FULL of these every day. If I let them all through I would never do anything else.
I agree with you though that this may have been a woman acting as a man or else this is a very feminine man(which there are some of). It was just oozing with emotion and “how would you fell if…” statements as if that kind of thinking is the foundation for truth rather than the Word of God.
Wow I never knew how bad it is
Love your stuff BGR, it is sorely needed in this messed up world of ours…..keep fighting the fight of faith
I believe you are right on target buy it is a hard truth to read and accept. However, I have never, not one time in my 62 year life met a woman married to a good man who treated her the way the Bible instructs a husband to treat his wife: putting her first, protecting her, loving her as Christ loves the church, putting her above his work and his children, and vice a versa, who wasn’t happy in her role and in her marriage. Unfortunately rare is the man who really does it right, especially at the beginning of their marriage. It is a role they both have to grow in to.
In short, and I’m splitting hairs here because both are important, I believe most men need to be respected first and loved second, and most women need to be loved first and respected second.
Chris you are hitting a good point. Wives fail husbands and husbands fail wives. The sad thing is that most couples entering into marriage have no idea how to be good at the “job” of marriage and do it properly the way God says it should be done. Husbands have no idea what their responsibilities are and neither do wives. They have often been filled with decades of mistruth from the world and sadly from church as well. The truth is that the job is just as hard for husbands to do properly as it is for wives to do properly. That is what feminists do not understand. They think that it is one big party zone for biblical husbands, but they fail to see that both husbands and wives are blessed by doing things God’s way. That is no surprise though, people have thought their ways are better since the fall. The irony is that the lifestyle that feminists promote such as hookup culture and women can do whatever they like with their bodies actually promotes a party zone for whoremonger men who do take advantage of women.
One more thing – does the bible instruct a man to put his wife first? He is instructed to treat her flesh as his flesh which is not the same thing as putting her first.
The more entrenched a fool becomes in his/her folly, the more desperate, incoherent and asinine his/her arguments become. Thank you for the patience, logic, clarity, and absolute scriptural proof you offer in your responses. BGR, yours is a dangerous calling in our present society but please keep up the great work. “Women ruling over them” is indeed a prophetic indicator of the end times.
Chris,
Your Statement:
One of the things I have talked about on this site many times is the concept of “taking off our cultural blinders”. Whether it was what we were taught by American culture, our church culture or our family culture we must be willing to question EVERYTHING but the Word of God. As the Scriptures say “let God be true, but every man a liar” – Romans 3:4.
In that vein we must ask ourselves – where does the Bible say that a husband must put his wife first in all things and that he must put her above his children and his career?
In a previous article I wrote https://biblicalgenderroles.com/2015/09/24/the-five-biblical-priorities-of-a-christian-man/
I stated:
And in the followup article https://biblicalgenderroles.com/2015/09/24/what-should-a-christian-mans-highest-priority-be/
I wrote I stated:
People usually point to Ephesians 5:25:
“Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it;”
But the mistake they make is cutting off the next verses that actually explain the kind of love a husband is to have toward his wife so lets look at it in context:
So how are husbands to love their wives as Christ loved the Church?
1. Christ did not give himself up to make his church happy and so she could do whatever she wanted. He gave himself up to purchase the church(Acts 20:28) so that he could make her holy. If a man thinks loving his wife means always trying to make her happy he has missed the point of marriage as God designed it.
2. Men are called to love their wives as they love themselves. In this way they are to care for the needs of their wives and protect their wives as they care for the needs of their own body and protect their own body.
But then we have the question of needs vs wants. A husband is not required to give up his career simply because his wife desires him to do so. But what if because of her needs he does so? I actually had to consider my role as a caretaker for my wife who is physically disabled when I made my last job move. A major reason I work from home is because of my wife’s condition. But I do this because there is true need – not simply because she desires it.
But even as I work from home – there are plenty of times I have to work a lot of hours and my wife sometimes does not like it and feels like she is not getting enough of my time. But there is no tension for me at all – because this is not a need of hers, but rather a desire.
So I think when it comes to our wives Biblically speaking we should put their NEEDS before our NEEDS but not necessarily there DESIRES before our DESIRES. I think we have to weigh each thing on a regular basis. Both wives and husbands can be selfish people. If I am always doing whatever my wife desires I may actually be spoiling her and not teaching her a valuable life lesson that we do not always get what we desire. She may become self-absorbed if I do that. In the same way if I am always putting my desires before hers I too may become self-asborbed. So when it comes to desires we as men need to balance that out in our marriages and families.
Sometimes we may do something our wife desires and at other times we may do something because we desire it. We may do something because our children desire it. There are times when I do something with my kids or for my kids that my wife is not thrilled about. But it is not always about her desires and this is a lesson for her. Sometimes I may do something I desire to do to – that my wife is not thrilled about. Again this her learning that it is not always about her desires. And the same applies to me and the kids – sometimes we may do something she desires that we don’t want to do and it is a lesson for me and the kids.
Anm1,
See my comment to Chris which should answer your question.
Yep, love that #1 above. Very nice. That has such deep truth not only for marriage, but for the church as well.
@BGR You’re welcome! 🙂
Can I pile on?
Imagine a husband that is so Christ-like that He is Christ. He is the perfect man, the perfect husband. His wife however is the church and she sometimes loses her love for Him, (Rev 2:4), practice sexual immortality (Rev 2:14), and she is passionless (Rev 3:16). The perfect husband says to her “Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline, so be zealous and repent” (Rev 3:19)
The point is that even with a perfect husband the wife still sins. Eve had a sinless existence with a man who knew not sin and she still disobeyed her husband.
Your frame that women do not rebel if their man is doing everything right is wrong on two other counts. First it seeks to excuse a woman’s sin and blame it on the man. If only he would stop messing her up with his narcissistic power trip and serve her right then she would be happy to follow him where she leads… And second God commands women to submit to their husband even if he obeys not the Word. God gives women no cover for their rebellion, He infact, delegates to husbands His own authority to lead and sanctify her. But sanctification is near impossible when repentance is resisted.
So if a husband is to be Christ-like toward his wife he will rebuke her when she is loveless, dispassionate, or following another. He will discipline her if he loves her, teach, correct and on the rare occasion wash her feet. But he never gives to her authority as an equal and never lets her forget that she is his subordinate. Why? Because Christ likes to Lord it over his church? That would be a blasphemy, it is because He loves her and desires to see her sanctified. What is his greatest obstacle? Her pride! She want to be as a God. A husband’s second greatest obstacle is his affection for her; it often eclipses his focus on God and his duty toward Him and her best interest.
I have found that if you push on a feminist just a little, they will call Christ an abuser and a tyrant. It could be the result of what they have been taught. The church for too long has taught a false Christ; abrogated His justice, His authority, His rule, His wrath, and made His love a sentimental emotion void of covenantal faithfulness in the face of continuing contempt. In her zeal to reach the lost the church has lost her zeal for holiness. Seeking to become wholly relevant, she has become unholy and irrelevant. The salt has lost its flavor and that with the perfect husband.
Jonadab,
Feel free to “pile on” anytime.
This is a great statement by the way:
Pride was definitely at the root of Eve’s sin and it is still something women struggle with today. Pride is the very root of feminism. “It’s my body I can do what I want with it” comes straight from pride and it lead to the sexual revolution as well as abortion and later women sexually denying their husbands. I have said it before and I will say it again. The biggest problem with women today is they are full of pride and the biggest problem with men today is they have no courage to do what is right and reign their women in.