51 thoughts on “How to help women learn their place”

1. Wow, this is great, BGR, such a comprehensive list! I feel like it’s always good to be reminded of all these things.

   How is your daughter doing with school and things? Did she get to read some of the book yet?

2. Dragonfly,

   Thanks. She is doing well in school and still talking to other girls about her faith and her beliefs about Biblical womanhood. She wants to learn these passages so she can be a more effective witness. Yes she started reading “The Fascinating Girl” finally a couple weeks ago and she loves it! She was showing me the parts about the “angelic” and the “human” and she has been skipping around in the book to find out certain concepts. We were both genuinely curious as to what she meant by “childlikness” that men find attractive in women. So we skipped over those chapters and I found that very interesting.

   She was reading the section in that book about women believing the lie that “they can have it all” and she had to come show me. She said “Dad – this lady sounds exactly like what you say on your blog!”

   Thanks for the recommendation – she really loves it.

3. Congratulations, Larry, on writing an excellent article! This is what the churches really need! I need to translate this into Spanish!

   Congratulations also to your daughter for daring to be different! She is certainly different from most of the teenage girls in church youth groups today! Some parents don’t seem to have any problem bringing their teenage daughters to church in mini-skirts or tight jeans. Should anybody say anything against this to these parents, they get mad! God’s judgement will start at the church!

   I wonder how many pastors would have the courage to teach what you wrote to their congregations?

   My wife likes to listen to a woman preacher on television who screams when she preaches. However, a woman screaming when she preaches turns me off. Your article explains why this would turn me off.

   By the way, last night I attended a teaching at the church that I am now attending. Sitting across the table from me was a young lady who does not have a boy friend, but wants to get married one day. I gave her a copy of the “Ten Commandments of Christian Marriage” that you wrote that I translated into Spanish.

4. As someone who attends a large nondenominational church that considers itself “complimentarian,” I seem to be alone in seeing the importance to these verses to the health of a family. Call it servant leadership or anything else, but almost every Christian woman I know uses that term to make the man the woman’s “helper.”

   Now I’m pretty much on my own pushing back against this stuff in my own family. I often wonder if it will be at the cost of my wife divorcing me and everyone calling me crazy. While something always felt wrong, it baffles me to see how disrespected husbands are in mainline Christianity. Likewise, it seems that you know plenty about going against approved opinions though.

5. Hi all,

   I stumbled across this blog while I was looking for reasons why God created a woman. I lingered on a bit longer though, interesting topics I’m seeing here. I’ve already read a few and allow me to say BGR that this blog is amazing.

   I see you tackle issues that are taboo in some circles, more so in the church. So I will subscribe to your posts and will definitely go through the older ones as well, seeing as they are timeless in their appeal.

   I’m a 27yr old single lady and I have been praying for marriage and asking God to prepare me for the wifely role. This post has given me more insight as to what I should be praying for and working on as I wait on the Lord for marriage. The feminist world we are living in certainly gives no regard to God’s will as regards a woman’s place in the home. Your article is a bitter truth to some who have lost this insight.

   Thank you for the great post

6. This post made me wonder if you had any opinions on how women who are committed to one man, be it because she’s courting/dating him, she’s engaged to him, or she’s married to him, should handle interactions with another man if he begins behaving inappropriately towards her, doesn’t back down when she politely informs him that she’s committed to another man, and even goes as far as to insult her boyfriend/fiancé/husband to her face. I guess that what I’m asking is: how should a woman in that situation best shut it down? I know that she should avoid adultery and remain loyal to her husband. I’m more asking how she should deal with this disrespect to her husband, her marriage, and herself beyond not committing adultery. Not sure if this is a question that needs to be answered in a separate post or not.

7. Larry, thank you for sharing. One of my issues is that none of the churches near me (Atlanta area) seem to have the guts to teach this kind of stuff. I’m 21 and recently purchased Nancy DeMoss Woglemuth (probably found under her maiden,”Nancy Leigh DeMoss”) booklet entitled “Biblical Portrait of Womanhood”.

   Link to amazon booklet purchase: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0966712412?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00

   Link to PDF version: https://www.reviveourhearts.com/articles/biblical-portrait-womanhood/

8. Oh! One more clarification. I’m asking what the woma should do if she can’t just walk away from the situation, like she could if the other man is a stranger, or cut contact, like she could with a casual acquaintance. I’m also asking if in those cases, she should say nothing before leaving the situation, or if she should in some way convey to the man that he was disrespectful to her husband and her marriage.

   I’m more referring to a case where the man that she’s dealing with is a family friend or the husband’s friend or someone with whom she would normally be expected to interact because he’s at her church, her husband’s place of work, or her place of work if she needs to have a job.

9. While Alex, if it’s a coworker, she can tell him in no uncertain terms that his untoward attentions are not wanted and the next time will be reported to HR. While I’m by no means an advocate of tattling on coworkers, there are definitely justifiable situations, and this would be one of them.

   If he was rude to her husband to his face, I’m guessing most men can take care of that situation by themselves. Some husbands would prefer their wives to step in as well, and some might see that as their wife trying to fight his battle for him….that one is highly situational.

   For other situations where she is alone and unable to report to HR (and I get this a lot as a nurse with inappropriate patients), being resolute is best. I try not to get all defensive the first time it happens but rather deflate it with a “that’s very kind of you but I’m married” or something similar. If it keeps happening, I’ll be more firm and tell him that his attentions aren’t appreciated and would be better spent on someone who is able to reciprocate them. If someone is being inappropriately sexual (which happens a lot unfortunately), a firm “that’s not appropriate” followed by a swift exit has worked very well for me. No patient who is truly dying in that moment is going to be trying to feel me up or making an inappropriate joke. So I feel absolutely no guilt in leaving the room and returning in 30 minutes or so to finish my tasks. Some women are more able to pull this off personality-wise than others. I’ve stepped in for younger or more bashful co-workers who were unable to handle other people’s advances.

   If you think the Bible verses BGR mentions above means that a woman cannot sternly tell a man off when he is being inappropriate, you are sadly mistaken. And I really do mean sadly. Because Jesus never intended for women to be stuck in situations like that and it’s sad that some people don’t see that (not saying that you are one of them, just in case you are, because there are others who are).

10. Thanks, Anna! That really is great advice.

11. That’s so great!! Yes, I loved it growing up, I think it gave me a major head start on things no one tells girls or young women anymore, and led to us having a much better marriage because of her book. So glad she’s liking it 🙂

    And yes, the childlikeness is an intriguing quality for sure, my husband says it’s what he loves most about me at times, but there’s only one woman I’ve known who had that one down pat that I use for a real life model. It’s basically a childlike joy and excitedness over simplistic things, instead of being serious and non-emotional or intellectual. Think of displaying (the good) emotions the way a child does them, that’s in an endearing way that makes you adore them, and that’s what I believe it is. Women who acquire this ability enchant men. And I love how that book talks about this ability (attracting men) being almost wholly in your control as a woman. It doesn’t rely on perfect looks or perfect outward dress, but on your attitude mostly alone, although she does talk about outward appearance some. Seduction starts in the attitude of the mind. And yes, even though it’s a book for girls and young women, the end result (learning about men and what they really crave from women) is understanding how to make a man desire you and feel like he can’t live without you. I didn’t know this book had so much power until I was 16+. After I was married, and we watched the movie Dangerous Beauty about a girl’s journey into becoming a courtesan, I realized a lot of the same things she learned in that movie, were the basics of what was taught in this old book produced way before feminism. So seducing men and becoming a fascinating woman were basically the same thing, except that this Christian book keeps it to only your husband (future husband) which is obviously how it should be. But wouldn’t every husband want to have his own sexual vixen courtesan wife? lol ❤ That's what it did for me, and I hope it does the same for her.

    And hopefully she'll keep it always 🙂 I still look back and read parts of it because it's so good to be reminded of what men crave and what makes me more fulfilled in what God wants me to be.

12. AnnaMS,

    I agree that a woman can sternly tell a man no or even yell for others to assist as the Old Testament says women should(Deut. 22:23-27) if a man were to act in this way to a woman to act in these kinds of inappropriate ways.

    Even if a woman’s own husband were to ask her to engage in some immoral act(like wife swapping with another man) she can and should sternly tell her husband no. God is her ultimate master and she cannot sin against God in order to obey her husband’s husbands sinful request.

    But when I talk about a woman not having a contentious spirit and being respectful, submissive and cooperative with her husband we are talking about in the normal course of life. Women today are often disrespectful and contentious about things that are not like what Alex was discussing. Even with men who are not their husbands, women often think nothing of going into a group of men who are discussing something and telling them they are all wrong and why they are wrong. Women of the past who understood the conduct of a lady would not do such things.

    This is what I was talking about.

13. Thanks for the clarification, BGR! I didn’t think that you were saying that women were supposed to avoid sternness when shutting down inappropriate advances. I was more wondering if you thought that it was best that a woman go directly for help from people around her or her husband if a man refused to back down after a polite rejection/explanation of marital status or if you thought that a woman should rebuke him as well to demonstrate her loyalty and fidelity to her husband.

14. Dragonfly,

    That makes perfect sense to me now about the childlikeness in women that men find attractive. I know with my own wife she struggles with moodiness and having a very serious and critical spirit at times. But other times when she is in a great mood she can have a sort of silly childlikeness about her that is very attractive to me. I think for a woman to portray this attribute consistently is probably very difficult to do – but it does wonders to draw your husband toward you rather than being moody, serious and critical which is going to repel any husband out there.

15. Alex,

    I think it is a combination of both. A woman should both rebuke the man and cry out for help if possible.

    There is actually a perfect illustration of this found in book of II Samuel. Amnon was the son of King David. He greatly desired his half-sister Tamar. He concocted a scheme to try and have sex with her outside of marriage. He pretended to be sick and then asked for her to come care for him and look how she responded to his inappropriate behavior:

    “10 Then Amnon said to Tamar, “Bring the food here into my bedroom so I may eat from your hand.” And Tamar took the bread she had prepared and brought it to her brother Amnon in his bedroom. 11 But when she took it to him to eat, he grabbed her and said, “Come to bed with me, my sister.”

    12 “No, my brother!” she said to him. “Don’t force me! Such a thing should not be done in Israel! Don’t do this wicked thing. 13 What about me? Where could I get rid of my disgrace? And what about you? You would be like one of the wicked fools in Israel. Please speak to the king; he will not keep me from being married to you.” 14 But he refused to listen to her, and since he was stronger than she, he raped her.”

    II Samuel 13:10-14 NIV

    So as you can Tamar firmly rebuked her half brother for asking her do something sinful such as having sex with him outside of the approval of marriage by her father. But he was stronger than her and overpowered her.

    The point is a woman can and should sternly rebuke a man when he does such things.

16. Yes, to have it consistently is difficult!
    And I think if you read more in depth, that’s not what the author is trying to help women emulate. Childlikeness is appropriate at many moments, but definitely not all. Since it was my mother’s book, she had all these notes and things in it that I got to read lol, which was funny at times. But she actually had a schedule of different attitudes she’d work on displaying for each day of the week so that she could seem even more enchanting. I’ll have to look back and see how they would be in contrast to the childlikeness one. Its just overall a very different way of thinking as a woman that isn’t taught anymore, so now we have women who don’t really know how to be lovely in attitude and demeanor, or how to seduce well.

    And I’m sure your daughter saw the point that it was different from “childishness” which are behaviors that are yes, childlike, but in a negative way. Like being a brat, spoiled, or throwing tantrums, etc. Those fall under “childish,” whereas good qualities she describes as “childlike.”

17. Dragonfly,

    That does make a lot of sense. Adopting a demeanor that can be sweet or cute or enthusiastic or playful depending on the moment is positive and endearing to men, and it is a childlike quality. However, like you said, it doesn’t keep a woman from having adult like qualities necessary for being a wife and mother. She still can have the adult ability to motivate herself to do things that she doesn’t want to without expecting a reward every time. (Obviously, it will cause her husband to appreciate her more and cause him to do nice things for her return, but it won’t become transactional where every time she behaves well in spite of her feelings, she gets a new toy, like a kid might.) She still can have the adult ability to fully understand that other people’s feelings exist and matter. And of course she can be serious when the moment calls for it, like when her husband needs to or wants to have have a serious conversation with her. In moments like those, continuing to act in a childlike way could become annoying and would make it seem like the woman was trying to shut the conversation down. (Seriously, I had a friend who used to act like a little kid whenever we tried to tell her that she was bothering us, and it was NOT endearing. Granted, it was an all-female group, but I think that most men would’ve agreed with us.)

18. The crying out for help verses are in context of when a man is actually trying to rape a woman. And in that case, I think crying out is definitely a good idea (or if a woman has good reason to suspect it is heading in that direction). I would not advise crying out as part of a first response. I think if I were to scream for help every time a patient said something inappropriate, that would be a bit overly dramatic. There have been times a patient has tried to pull me into bed and I had reason to believe I would be able to wrench myself free, so in those situations I didn’t cry out either. I knew a girl in high school who had been incredibly sheltered her entire life. We were standing in a group of 5 or 6 of us at church and a guy put his hand on her shoulder as part of the conversation and she freaked out and started screaming ‘no’ at the top of her voice. It was pretty embarrassing for everybody else in the room.

19. AnnaMS,

    I agree completely with what you have said. My wife was a nurses aid and then a nurse for over 20 years. She told me she got felt up by so many old men it was not funny. Whether they would grab her butt or even touch a boob. She would just tell them no politely and then if they kept trying to grab leave them for a while. She never had anyone move beyond the first grab or so and then they got the point unless he was truly a old man that had lost his mind.

    If you are two oversensitive to that kind of stuff as a nurse you will never make it she told me.

    But the point of those verses is in extreme situations like rape or a man has you cornered or is trying to force you to do something. I think anything short of that and you can use a more graceful approach. I also knew girls like the one you described that attended my Christian school and some of them were like that.

20. AnnaMS & BGR, I did a post this morning on Christians being called to have bad sex – would love your thoughts!

21. Since Paul also gives directions about how slaves should relate to their masters, is it OK to own slaves or was that limited to their culture?

22. Matt,

    Your question:

    “Since Paul also gives directions about how slaves should relate to their masters, is it OK to own slaves or was that limited to their culture?”

    Every once in a while I let the slavery question come through since it is one of those things that is thrown at the Bible believing Christians all the time. I wrote an extensive piece on this subject of slavery in the Bible you can find here.

    https://biblicalgenderroles.com/2015/07/10/why-christians-shouldnt-be-ashamed-of-slavery-in-the-bible/

    The short answer to your question is God very clearly allowed slavery and the practice was not considered immoral by either the Old Testament prophets or the Apostles. But there were strict rules on how it could be practiced. You were not allowed to gain your slaves by “man stealing” or kidnapping people as the slaves that were brought to the United States were. Also slavery in the Bible was not racially based as American Slavery was.

    God only allowed slaves to be acquired in these ways:
    A parent could sell their child as a slave. Often families who were poverty that had many children would sell one or more of their children to wealthier families so they could get out of poverty. They would receive substantial payment to help their other children not starve to death and they would know their child would be well cared for a slave. In Israel slaves were treated better than any nation around them – they had rights to proper rest, food and clothing. They were able to celebrate the feasts and they were not allowed to made to work on the Sabbath either. While the master could use corporal punishment(beat them for insubordination) he was not allowed to cause them any serious harm(like breaking bones, or teeth or internal injuries) otherwise he would have to free them for their injuries. If a master killed his slave he would be punished.
    America and other nations around the world never had treated slaves as Israel was commanded by God to treat theirs.

    Other ways slaves could be acquired(and they would have same rights) is by purchase from other nations or as captives of war.

    So in modern terms – God would not consider it immoral for us to bring back slaves from Muslim nations that we conquer.

    But God did not say we HAD to practice slavery only that it was a practice he ALLOWED under the right circumstances. So the fact that we have a Constitution that forbids us from doing something like taking captives back as slaves from Iraq or Afghanistan would preclude us as Christians from doing that.

    I think it is good that we outlawed slavery in America because of how we so horribly treated the African people and that way they were acquired and treated was nothing like the slavery of the Bible.

23. So in short, you think that owning other people is OK, unless we live in a country with laws against it? Just trying to get clear what you think. If you think owning other people is ever OK, then there is no point in talking to you about gender equality.

24. Absolutely I think people owning other people(under the right circumstances – not because they kidnapped them) is OK if the country you are in had laws that allowed it. If I thought one person owning another person was immoral than I would have to throw out my Bible because it says it is moral under the right circumstances. Now I realize for that reason and also the reason that the Bible clearly rejects social and gender equality as we define it today that many people have in fact thrown their Bibles out and rejected Christianity completely. They can choose to do so and when they die someday and stand before God they can attempt to argue with the creator of the Universe as to why he did not make things as they would have them made.

    I talk about this and human rights as the Bible defines them(verses how modern western civilization defines them) in these posts:
    https://biblicalgenderroles.com/2015/07/10/does-the-bible-teach-the-concept-of-human-property/
    https://biblicalgenderroles.com/2015/07/10/biblical-human-rights-vs-american-human-rights/

25. Shortly after reading your post I found a post someone had made on Facebook that, essentially, boiled down to ‘women would be God’s perfect creation if only they had more self esteem’. Suffice to say I was a bit taken aback (okay, more than a bit), but I was also saddened. The responses from supposedly christian women were a hardy ‘right on!’ and ‘yes, more self-love is needed!’. How in the world can we expect the older women of the church to teach the younger women, when the older women are already led astray? And I guarantee anyone, man or woman, who had posted and opposing view on that thread would have been derided and shamed. Hope is quickly fading for the American church. Lord come quickly, this world is spoiling to rottenness at a hare’s pace.

26. Matt,

    Grow up. I own several slaves. They are called employees. My daughter helps at a private school so that she can afford more than what I buy for her and I allow her to work there. I owe money on my home, therefore I work and give the bank money.

27. @Jeff

    “Grow up. I own several slaves. They are called employees. My daughter helps at a private school so that she can afford more than what I buy for her and I allow her to work there. I owe money on my home, therefore I work and give the bank money.”

    touche….

    Also, it does no good. Some people don’t come here for any other reason than to argue and find ammunition to load into their own web sites they can point to and say ‘wow, look at these kooky Christians!’. Likely they are socialist/communist sympathizers who don’t give a hoot about the fact that their anti-American idols owned more slaves than all of Israel ever did.

28. Snapper,

    You don’t even see most of them. You would not believe the vile comments I get(or maybe you would). You don’t know how many supposed Christians I get sending me comments to F# off and die.
    Many Christians today have sacrificed their Christian faith on the altar to the true god they worship – Equality. Yes as human beings we all have equal value to God. But the lie many Americans and Westerners believe is that to be truly treated as human – everyone must have all the same rights and privileges.

    The Bible does give some basic rights to all human beings but after that the inequality begins. God made a world full of people that are anything but equal. Some people are smarter, some people are less intelligent. Some people are business savvy and others could not run a cash register at McDonalds. Some people can paint marvelous works of art while others can’t draw stick men. Some of us are short, some of us are tall. Some of us gain weight looking at food and others of us can eat whatever we want. The point is after our basic humanity we are anything but equal. We are unequal.

    I get people on here all the time accusing me of saying I think women are stupid and incapable of anything but house work and that is why I think they need to be in the home and not the workforce. But nothing could be further from the truth. There are many intelligent and capable women out there and my wife(who used to be nurse) and my daughter(who is in junior high) are among them.

    However I do think women in general on a physical and mental level are often less suited for more physically demanding work or work that requires you to be extremely capable in combat. Especially in areas like fire fighters, police officers and the military. Are there some that can do it? Yes but they are the exception and not the norm just look at the example of a female secret service agent getting overpowered by an intruder in the White house.
    http://mediamatters.org/blog/2014/09/30/laura-ingraham-blames-gender-equality-and-polit/200944

    But even if a woman is physically capable of doing the job, or smart enough to do the job from God’s point of view according the the Bible that is not the point. There is a bigger and more important issue at play.
    It is about position, it is about purpose.

    Can a wife have children then go out and work and her husband stay home and take care of them? Of course they are capable of switching roles in this way. But God wants that man and woman to model the relationship of Christ and his church. If the woman goes out and leaves her God given duties in the home and with the children to her husband she has broken the model that God’s wants displayed. It does not matter that he might make less money working that her – money is not the issue. The model is the most important thing God wants on display.

    Women can still use their talents God gave them in many ways including in their home educating their children, working in their church and perhaps writing Christian blogs or books for women.

29. Yes, I completely understand. And it is unfortunate that so many Christians take the bible, the book they claim to hold as the inerrant Word of God, the arbiter of truth and love, as a book that is no longer ‘with the times’. I see so many translations of scripture it makes my head spin. Just read the verse! What does it say? Is it intended to be poetic? No? Then believe it, and then do it! If this is the book of Life why would a loving God write everything in code? I would hope not! Would you make a sign telling people how to escape in case of fire in hieroglyphics would you? Everywhere I look I see the American church failing by cutting the feet out from under it’s men. Even the church I attend for mens group has kicked the men out of the spaces in the church and relegated them to a tiny break room in the back of the church. Strong men make a strong church! By focusing on women and children they get bodies in the church, but they do not strengthen themselves. Since churches are now businesses the focus is on getting butts in the seats and cash into the coffers, not delivering the gospel or training Christian soldiers. Woe to this country, friend.

30. Really? You guys can’t tell the difference between employees and slaves? I get that employers have authority over employees (nor would I have it anyway d/t avoiding chaos). But think about the authority slave-owners had that employers don’t. I can list stuff if you guys need it, but really it should be obvious.

31. Ha ha! Maybe we need to post a quick FAQ on how to spot a joke!

32. Despite my earlier response, Anna brings up a good point. In biblical times slavery served a large purpose that I think many people overlook. There probably wasn’t a lot of what you might call the ‘service industry’, the majority of jobs being creation of tangible goods or manual labor. Also, I doubt there were many trade schools, similar what we see today. As a young, strong man or woman, one option was to sell myself into ‘slavery’ (also known as indentured servitude) for a period of time. I would have food, clothing, shelter and maybe a small wage. With any luck, at the end of my term I might have learned a trade like husbandry, carpentry or a host of others. I was, in essence, a slave, under a masters authority, similar to an employee, though much deeper than that. Yes, I would be considered the property of my master, but there would have been a much deeper level of responsibility than what your typical boss might have.

    Also, would people have preferred the wholesale slaughter of women and children left over from war? If the guidelines for Israel were so strict and prevented the master of slaves from treating them harshly, I would think that some of these war slaves would have been happy to have been left alive and capable of survival.

33. Snapper, I was more responding to Jeff than you (although I likely don’t communicate with either of you enough to be able to spot online sarcasm 100% of the time). Although if I might ask, if you weren’t serious, what was the point of your and Jeff’s last few posts?

    What you brought up wasn’t just related to Biblical times. Up to recent history (and perhaps even now although it is unfortunately not as common as it once was), what you described is a lot like apprenticeship. Which IMO is a huge improvement from the typical situation that teens find themselves in (spending all their time at the mall, hanging out in the drug corner of the community, etc.) I still do think it is different than slavery, but it is different than your typical employee/employer situation.

34. Anna,

    I think this is where a lot of both Christians and non-Christians get confused. The word ‘slavery’ carries a lot of negative associations with it, and it should! I mean given the history of slavery in just the past few hundred years it’s easy to see WHY it would carry that negativity. The bible, however, shows that ‘slavery’ had at least more than one meaning back in those times. I mean, we can look at Egypts enslavement of the Israelites and see that they treated them harshly, about what WE think the definition of slavery would be, and yet we also see the God of the bible laying down guidelines for slavery that are not at all what we would consider slavery nowadays. It seems the word has changed over time to solely mean something negative when, in fact, it appears it was not always that way. Of course, even your word ‘apprenticeship’ doesn’t properly convey the same meaning. An apprentice may live with the one he is learning from, but he is free to go, he is there of his own volition. A slave is considered the property and responsibility of their owner. Their owner must care for them as in important investment and provide for them in ways a boss or teacher would not. They are not given the same freedom that an apprentice would be given, as a master would have much greater authority – like the military! Now, I wouldn’t call the military ‘enslavement’, but you get the general idea. In the military they say you are property of the US Government, in the same way a slave would be property of his master.

    Ugh, if I don’t stop now I will keep on typing and typing. I think Jeff was just responding to a previous post by being facetious and I, in turn, backed him up.

35. Snapper,

    I think we can all agree on the fact that slavery is the concept of one human being owning another. The Bible is clear this concept by itself – one person owning another is NOT sinful or immoral. What CAN make slavery immoral is HOW the slaves are acquired(by kidnapping or other unjust means) as well as HOW the slaves are treated(as human beings).

    We can say that was a different culture all day long, but the fact is God allowed it and Paul in the New Testament gives further instructions regarding Masters and slaves letting us know God still does not consider slavery immoral if it occurs under the right circumstances.

    Because of the horrible way Europeans and Americans treated slaves and how they acquired them(by kidnapping them) we always see slavery in a negative light. But God does not.

    The main point about slavery that I think offends most people is the fact that you do not have the right of self determination. In most jobs if you do not like your employer you can quit and go find another job. But in slavery you are owned by your master – you have no choice but to serve him and if you rebel he can punish you.

    You made a good point about the military though. Basically when someone joins the military they are selling themselves as a slave to the US military for a 4 year period. You can’t just quit your job when you are in the military or they will throw you in prison. You go where they tell you to go and you do what they tell you to do.

    Most people do not realize that America still allows one type of slavery – that of prisoners.

    The 13th Amendment which outlaws slavery states:

    “Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.”

    So basically the government can determine that certain crimes are worthy of hard labor and force you to work as the slave of the United States government.

    But going back to the “right of self determination or autonomy” issue. This is the core reason that so many people today reject the Biblical teachings regarding the relationship of a wife to her husband. When Ephesians 5:24 tells wives to submit to their husbands as unto God himself in “everything” that is a frightening proposition to many. It has the appearance of a master/slave relationship. I Peter 3:1-7 confirms the Master/Servant relationship and the subjugation of wives to their husbands.

    So it is Biblically accurate to say that if women submit themselves to God’s design for their lives and marry a Christian man they do in essence sacrifice their self-autonomy and give themselves fully in mind, body and destiny to their husband. Only if he asks them to do something against God’s law may they oppose him. But even though I believe women do give up self-autonomy in marriage(if they follow God’s commands) this does not make marriage a normal master/servant/slave relationship. A master is not commanded to “dwell with his slave according to knowledge giving honor unto his slave”.

    A slave is not a man’s help meet – only his wife can be his help meet.

    My point is while marriage may bare some similarities to the master/servant/slave relationship it is not a typical master/servant/slave relationship.

    Again this is why people so often bring up slavery when we are talking about the Biblical subjection of wives to their husbands.

36. Well, at least back in Colonial times, apprentices often signed a contract that they weren’t able to break (unless they were able to prove cruelty on the side of their masters which was very difficult and even then didn’t necessarily qualify them). So they weren’t just free to leave of their own accord. But it is true that their time of apprenticeship was for a set amount and not for life. So it’s not the same as being owned as a slave for life.

37. This is a well written article, and I’m grateful that someone out there is getting the word out about how to be a Biblical wife! -but I do feel that one aspect about the ideal wife is being left out. In Proverbs 31, a virtuous wife is described as being industrious, making investments, and even owning her own land! so my question for you, sir, is this; is there room in your interpretation for this part of Proverbs 31? My husband rejoices that in addition to being a stay at home wife caring for him and his things, I also work in investing and marketing to bring additional money in, and just because I enjoy it! He asks for my opinions and we discuss things together, and although I always respect his conclusions, he holds my opinions in high regard. I am to respect him and do as he says, but he is also to love me. Love is a far broader term than respect; it includes respect, as well as patience, endurance, and much more! While we are far from perfect, I believe that these standards by which we live are Biblical ones.
    Thank you so much for taking the time to instruct women on how to be Biblical wives! I respect what you are doing!

38. DCarlson,

    Absolutely there is room in my interpretation for women like you! I do not ignore that Proverbs 31 talks about the woman being industrious as you correctly point out.

    I talked about this in a post I wrote almost two years entitled “Can a woman work outside the home?” and this is what I said:

    Some have mistakenly tried to point to Proverbs 31 as showing a full time career woman and this passage shows nothing of the kind. The woman in this passage is intelligent – “she opens her mouth in wisdom”. She is resourceful when she “She considers a field and buys it; From her earnings she plants a vineyard” and when she “makes linen garments and sells them”.

    So I would agree with my Christian feminist and Egalitarian friends that this woman is not always at home, however the passage shows the focus of her life is in fact her home. Every one of these things she does is focused on her home. In fact the vast majority of things she does here would allow her to work from home. A few times she may go out to buy things, or plant a vineyard, but in now ways does this show a woman that is gone from her home 40 to 50 hours a week pursing some career and leaving her house undone or duties to her husband, children and home to others.

    Just as back then women could run a business out of their home (such as selling fine clothes), so to today women can run businesses out of their home. They can have in-home daycare, do telemarketing and host of other things. They can write books, they can run blog sites.

    You can read the full post here – https://biblicalgenderroles.com/2014/05/23/can-a-woman-work-outside-the-home/

    I do not think that because God called women to place their focus on their home, their children and their husband that all they can do is having babies, care for them and cook and clean. Women can have businesses out of their home as the Proverbs 31 wife did as long as it does not take away from their core duties to their husband, their children and the care of their home.

    As far as women with money – I completely recognize that some women are better with money than some men. My mother in law is better with math and money than my father in law and so was my grandmother better than my grandfather with it. A woman can pay the bills and discuss finances with her husband. But what a man cannot do is surrender his authority over financial policies. He would do well to listen to good financial advice from anyone he can get it including you. But in the end policy decisions are his even if you actually write the checks.

    Also contrary to what many have said about me I am not against women being educated. I just believe their focus should be on finding a husband and starting a home. If while she is looking for a husband she goes to a local college and learns about marketing or investing or writing or whatever that is fine. Once she finds the man and gets married she can take online courses at home and finish her degree if it is not interfering with her duties to her husband, her home and her children.

    So I think we are on the same page on this.

39. Dear BGR,

    My husband printed off this article and encouraged me to read it. I read it, with a lot of pain, over the years that I wasted in trying to be all things that the World expected. Early in our marriage, I tried to be a successful working woman and a mom, and a wife, and a friend to all of my church friends, and the school volunteer of the year.

    God eventually broke my heart and my husband’s heart about our family and that the family of 3 girls and 1 boy God have us was the most important. We began our journey by homeschooling through Advanced Training Institute International last Summer, and God definitely dealt with me in many of the areas you mentioned:

    I stopped my work as a professional assistant in a real estate firm and had to learn to depend on my husband as the sole bread winner and decision maker. You see, when I earned money, I thought that it was ok for me to make the decisions because it was “MY” money…not Gods. I had to learn to budget and be frugal, something I had never really done before because of my second income.

    Your article touched on our husbands desire to see us acting innocent and having childlike joy. Well, when I was working and being a “leader” volunteering in so many areas. I had little joy or spontaneity with my husband. God has changed my heart where I now relish in making him happy and surprising him with little things (cooking his favorite foods, detailing his car, or doing “diy” projects to beautify our home. His joy gives me joy.

    In my appearance, I dressed very career like (slacks, some suits, and flat dress shoes to be comfortable at the office. When I started our mission at home, I had never considered what I needed to wear to please him and God and not wearing things “that pertainth to a man” My husband had asked for years for me to dress more feminine, and I would accommodate him for a special occasion. So, I told my husband that I wanted to dress more feminine, in a way that I would bring honor to him and God. And he delighted in this!! He splurged and bought me a new wardrobe of dresses and skirts…some casual and some dressy. We threw out my pants and flat shoes, and he purchased me several new pairs of heels, some casual and some dressy. (I realize that God doesn’t require a woman to wear high heels, but I do have the desire to please my husband and I know he desires me in them, so I love to do it for him. We discussed that while heels may limit some of my activities, that is where he must become involved with the children and take over the more boisterous or outdoor activities, while I watch and encourage all of them!)

    My struggle is far from over. I do not get a lot of encouragement from friends and family. They do not understand the choices we have made, but I know I am honoring my husband and my God, and that is all that matters.

40. Jamie,

    Thank you so much for sharing your story. I love to hear these kinds of story from women who have decided to honor God with their lives in the way you have done. And you are right the struggle is far from over. It will take years to undue the feminist programming you have been brought up with in the culture that surrounds us and you will receive no encouragement from a world that has rejected God and his Word.

    But I want to admonish you and encourage you as a brother in Christ to keep serving God by serving your husband, your children and your home to the best of your ability.

    I wrote a post dedicated to your story that you can find here https://biblicalgenderroles.com/2016/03/02/dont-fall-for-the-feminist-lie-that-women-can-have-it-all/

41. Larry Solomon,
    While scrolling through my Facebook feed, I came across your intriguing post. Though I usually do not take the time to read articles shared by my friends, as I am a pre-law college student with hundreds of pages of reading assigned to me each night, the striking words “How to Help Women Learn Their Place” piqued my interest. I visited your blog and read the biographical information your provided and several of your comment threads. As a Catholic, made in the image of God, I share many of your beliefs and I have read most of the passages that you listed in your article during my years attending Catholic institutions. I have been fortunate in that I have had numerous mentors that have guided me in my faith, including my father, mother, and several teachers. I have had the opportunity to analyze philosophical and theological works, including those of St. Augustine and St. Thomas Aquinas with the great educators I encountered in my time at Pope John XXIII High School in Sparta, New Jersey. I have studied these topics with fervor, and I have strengthened my faith through constant inquiry, as my religion is not something that I take for granted.
    However, I believe that your article reflects not only the loving messages given to us by God, but also several sexist attitudes embedded in our society. While it is clear that God created men and women with differing characteristics, strengths, and weaknesses, I do not think that it necessarily follows that the two genders must adhere strictly to narrow roles. While the Bible includes passages that guide women to be reverent and respectful to men, it also offers direction to men to love women and to treat them with kindness and understanding, and to acknowledge them as companions and partners in life.
    As an 18 year old woman, I have struggled throughout my lifetime to discover exactly what your article claims to offer an answer to. I have struggled to learn my place in this world with this life that I have been given. The wave of feminism that you readily criticize has afforded me the ability to explore the vast possibilities of who I could be. It has allowed me to receive an education, and to read the works of insightful minds who have contemplated and established their places in life. Through this education, I have found role models such as Deborah the fifth judge of the Old Testament referenced in Judges 4 and 5 and Hebrews 11:32-34. A thoughtful and effective leader, Deborah lifted the spirits of the downtrodden Israelites as she prophesied the word of the Lord under her famous palm tree. A courageous warrior, she led her army of 10,000 against the 100,000 Canaanites and proved victorious. The mother of Israel, the wife of Lapidoth, and the prophetess of God, Deborah serves as the ultimate example of a woman using her specific gifts to lead and to change the world in which she lived.
    My education has also allowed me to ascertain and to ruminate on various attitudes and viewpoints regarding sexuality and gender roles that exist in the present day and to solidify my position on these crucial topics. Before beginning my studies at the University of Nebraska-Lincoln, I had always referred to myself as a “traditionalist feminist.” I viewed myself as equal to my male classmates, as I had continually been able to interact and compete with them academically. However, I did not feel that I could properly call myself a feminist and all that this term has come to mean, as I agree with many of the roles set out for men and women. This internal conflict continued until I came across a page in my international relations textbook during my first semester at college which separated feminism into two distinct categories. The definition of liberal feminism was familiar to me; it was an idea that I had heard recurrently, an idea that I could never bring myself to agree with. The theory of liberal feminism claims that there are no fundamental differences between men and women and that any perceived distinctions are merely the result of societal stereotyping. To me, this theory seems entirely unrealistic, as I have experienced the inherent differences between the genders in countless situations, specifically during my time playing for the men’s ice hockey team at my high school. It is indisputable that I was not physically equal to the men on the ice, as I was mentally equal in the classroom. But, Authors Joshua Goldstein and Jon Pevehouse offer the definition of another strand of feminism, difference feminism, which focuses on “valorizing the feminine…valuing the unique contributions of women as women.” Difference feminism provides a way for a woman like me to both accept many gender roles and to work to compete academically and intellectually to shape their societies and to learn their places within them.
    In your article, you stressed the need for parents, teachers, and pastors to teach young women how to behave as daughters of God and you argued that feminism has resulted in disrespectful behavior by women to their fathers and their husbands. Throughout my life, I have looked to my mother and father for guidance and they have been the measure against which I have evaluated myself. My mother is a devoted wife and homemaker, and she has worked tirelessly to instill in my brother and me values of compassion, kindness, and honesty. However, my mother has also served as my greatest advocate, and she has consistently demanded that I be afforded the same opportunities as my brother. She has taught me to be ambitious, and to embrace every task with passion and diligence. My father, for whom I have immeasurable respect, has provided me with every possible chance to both better and challenge myself. He supported me throughout my eight year long career as a hockey player, understanding that this activity, though male-dominated, was important to me and would present many occasions for self-growth. It was my father who pushed me far beyond my own perceived limitations and encouraged me to apply to the University of Nebraska-Lincoln, a school 1,250 miles from my home, and it was him who all but forced me to accept my full tuition scholarship to attend this institution of higher education. While my mother and father have taught me what it means to be a daughter of God, bringing me to mass, showing me how to present myself in word, deed, and dress, and providing examples through their own lives, they have never allowed my gender to inhibit my desire to learn and participate in my society.
    In concluding your article, you offered a list of Bible verses to be used by women to guide their behavior. While I disagree with the connotations of several of your brief summary headings, as I feel you have misinterpreted some of the text due to the gender biases that our society poses, I have tried to model my life based off of teachings and verses such as these. I work hard to be trustworthy, to show discretion when it is necessary, to speak with wisdom kindness, and love, to dress modestly, and to look to my parents and grandparents for guidance when I have needed it. Though I have copious aspirations, including earning a college degree, attending and graduating from law school, and using all I will have learned to pursue a career in politics, I also hope one day to be a wife and mother. Like your daughter, I look forward to fulfilling my role in God’s design and I intend to embark on that endeavor with the same ambition that I have put into my education, the same ambition that has been fostered for 18 years by my parents and teachers. I will treat my husband with respect and I will gladly support him in all that he does, and I will expect that he show me the love and kindness that God commands.
    However, right now, I am an 18 year old woman, and I am subject and accountable to no one but my parents, educators, and myself. Right now I am a student and I intend to learn all that I can so that I may one day change my world, because my ambitions stretch far past the nuclear family unit and home. I urge you to contemplate my viewpoint, because I have combated attitudes similar to the one you expressed throughout my life. I have had boyfriends who claimed I showed them disrespect by simply having conversations with other males. I have had young men on opposing hockey teams cast disparaging remarks at me such as “make me a sandwich, bitch,” in an effort to help me learn what they think should be my place. I urge you to reflect on the possibility that there is more than one way for a young woman like myself, and like your daughter, to fulfill her role as a daughter of God and to learn their true place. I ask you to cogitate on my position because I feel it is imperative for today’s young women to understand that their faith does not have to stand in contrast with their aspirations, and you and I both have the power to spread this message. I respectfully ask you to take the time to read and respond to my post, as I would be interested to hear more about your perspective.

42. Justice,

    I forgot to respond to you here – I posted an article responding to your comment here.
    https://biblicalgenderroles.com/2016/03/19/why-women-dont-belong-in-politics/

43. I would like to see a comparative list for what is expected of husbands/fathers. Are you going to posting an article to that end?

44. KJ,

    I already did a similar post to this for men a while back:

    https://biblicalgenderroles.com/the-conduct-of-a-christian-man/

45. “A master is not commanded to ‘dwell with his slave according to knowledge giving honor unto his slave.'”

    I noticed recently that we are commanded to do exactly that. We are to deal with our servants according to this knowledge: we have a master in heaven who requires us to rule justly and without abuse. If our servant is a Christian, he is a beloved brother and fellow heir.

    Ephesians 6:9 And, ye masters, do the same things unto them, forbearing threatening: knowing that your Master also is in heaven; neither is there respect of persons with him.

    Colossians 3:25 But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons. 4:1 Masters, give unto your servants that which is just and equal; knowing that ye also have a Master in heaven.

    Philemon 1:15 For perhaps he therefore departed for a season, that thou shouldest receive him for ever; 16 Not now as a servant, but above a servant, a brother beloved, specially to me, but how much more unto thee, both in the flesh, and in the Lord?

46. This is such a great “reminder” list! I need to print this out! 💖

47. For the men out there that were very extremely blessed to have met their wives and have a family should be very thankful for what you have since many of us good men haven’t been as blessed like many of you were since the women of today have really changed since the past. Back then i would say Most of them were very old fashioned and really made a great wife as well. Quite a different story now unfortunately.

48. Shalawan: Very excellent scriptures concerning women’s role, pertaining to the man. Keep up the good work. Shalawan

49. I am an TRADITIONAL wife. I was grateful to see and view this information on a wife’s role when married. The world may have changed but that does not mean how you face things or do things so you to fit in with a flawed society, that could come against your beliefs. The BASIC INSTRUCTIONS BEFORE LEAVING EARTH is the great way. The only way. KEEP IT SIMPLE🙏🏾🙏🏾🙏🏾 is my prayer for everyone.

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